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 A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses

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PostSubject: A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses   A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses Icon_minitimeMon Feb 15, 2016 1:40 pm

*THREAD WILL CONTAIN SPOILERS FOR THOSE WHO HAVE NOT READ THE BOOK*

I noticed there are a couple of threads popping up containing bits and pieces of Sue's book. I received my hard copy today from Amazon and have just stated reading it.
I thought it may be interesting to have somewhere to post our responses to the new or interesting information that we come across in the book. Or similarly any related thoughts and feelings regarding things that may stand out for us.

At the moment personally I'm only up to pg(18) Chapter 2. I found Sue's detailed description regarding how she and the family responded inside their home to the news about Columbine and about how Dylan may be involved very interesting. I couldn't help but wonder what was going on in the Harris household at this time.

I did almost get the impression that after hearing Sue's side of things, the visit of Judy Brown to the Klebold home on 4/20 felt like it was quite unexpected and a little inappropriate:

Quote :
Alerted by the Littleton rumour mill that Dylan was involved in the events at the school, she had come to our house. I was startled to see her

Quote :
I was too distracted to question why she was there, but it did seem odd for her to have materialized during this most private of times.
pg(12)
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PostSubject: Re: A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses   A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses Icon_minitimeMon Feb 15, 2016 1:58 pm

Yeah, it's a good idea to have them all in one thread.

So Dylan tried out for the Columbine baseball team, but didn't make it.

He was a failed jock.

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PostSubject: Re: A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses   A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses Icon_minitimeMon Feb 15, 2016 2:42 pm

This book would have made Dylan cry I'm sure, very sentimental.

I feel bad for Eric, that he doesn't have someone to talk about him like this.
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PostSubject: Re: A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses   A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses Icon_minitimeMon Feb 15, 2016 2:50 pm

I was surprised to read that he gave Devon a kiss on the head at Prom.
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PostSubject: Re: A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses   A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses Icon_minitimeMon Feb 15, 2016 3:39 pm

I'm on the chapter where she talks about seeing the Basement Tapes.

She says Eric was encouraging Dylan to be angry, and that he was grasping at straws...argh. Maybe Eric was encouraging Dylan's anger because Eric was trying to help him feel better? It doesn't have to be a manipulative thing, I think Eric looked at Dylan and saw that he had a lot of repressed anger that was eating him from the inside, and he didn't want his best friend to hate himself or feel bad. Dylan internalized a lot and had trouble putting his feelings into words--of course his explanation is going to be clumsy and seem trivial. But it doesn't really. He felt picked-on by everyone, as far back as daycare. That's not as easy to let go of as it sounds, not when it's a constant pattern over the years of one's life.

I keep thinking, as she's describing the reactions of the locals--now do you see what these people are like? Insular, judgmental, vindictive, evangelical, intolerant, superstitious mental midgets going after her for something she didn't do and had no frame of reference for. For all of the people who were kind and sympathetic to her, there were as many who went after her with lawsuits, threats and aspersions. These are the people Dylan was surrounded by. It couldn't have been good for his depressive tendencies. I've talked to some people who have lived in the Denver suburbs and for the most part they paint the same picture of what the majority of people are like there.

We have the guidelines for school shooting reportage spelled out now. Now we know exactly what the press is lying to us about so we can fill in our own blanks. Media literacy! I guess it's part of my punk rock tendencies, this impulse to loudly shout the thing nobody else wants to say, but I think this hidey-sneaky PCism is as bad as sensationalism because it's still lying. When you're exaggerating the truth at least there's the kernel of the whole truth under the exaggeration. When you're hush-hushing for the supposed greater good of the public, you're not presenting all the information.

(Future terrorists take note--take control of your own publicity because the corporate media is onto you and not your sock puppet anymore. Onion sites, guerrilla distribution, video editing software, file sharing, hidden blogs...take a few cues from ISIS and what they did right. Just don't get busted in the interim--cover your incriminating details until it's Judgment Day, and use a proxy, every time.)
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PostSubject: Re: A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses   A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses Icon_minitimeMon Feb 15, 2016 4:12 pm

I'm skipping around. (I never read a book from cover to cover, at least not at the beginning. But I do end up reading the whole thing.)

She keeps stressing the fact that Dylan let four people live.

Eric let people live, too, didn't he? He didn't shoot Bree Pasquale.

(Yes, he had broken his nose, so he wasn't in the best of shape.)

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PostSubject: Re: A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses   A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses Icon_minitimeMon Feb 15, 2016 4:26 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
I'm skipping around. (I never read a book from cover to cover, at least not at the beginning. But I do end up reading the whole thing.)

She keeps stressing the fact that Dylan let four people live.

Eric let people live, too, didn't he? He didn't shoot Bree Pasquale.

(Yes, he had broken his nose, so he wasn't in the best of shape.)

John Savage and who else?

Don't forget Eric also let Brooks go
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PostSubject: Re: A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses   A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses Icon_minitimeMon Feb 15, 2016 4:29 pm

Has anyone read the Acknowledgements yet? There's one in there that makes me want to pull my hair out.

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PostSubject: Re: A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses   A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses Icon_minitimeMon Feb 15, 2016 4:33 pm

*goes to acknowledgements now...* *surprised by the index....*

Oh nooooooo. I can almost imagine him being more than happy to help.

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PostSubject: Re: A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses   A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses Icon_minitimeMon Feb 15, 2016 4:35 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
*goes to acknowledgements now...* *surprised by the index....*

Oh nooooooo. I can almost  imagine him being more than happy to help.


I can't say I'm shocked. She keeps quoting Langman as saying things like "Columbine wouldn't have happened without Eric."

And how about that introduction?

"Eric was a failed Hitler; Dylan was a failed Holden Caulfield."


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PostSubject: Re: A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses   A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses Icon_minitimeMon Feb 15, 2016 4:42 pm

Another tidbit from the Acknowledgements:

She thanks Nate Dykeman, but not Brooks Brown.

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PostSubject: Re: A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses   A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses Icon_minitimeMon Feb 15, 2016 4:47 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
*goes to acknowledgements now...* *surprised by the index....*

Oh nooooooo. I can almost  imagine him being more than happy to help.


I can't say I'm shocked. She keeps quoting Langman as saying things like "Columbine wouldn't have happened without Eric."

And how about that introduction?

"Eric was a failed Hitler; Dylan was a failed Holden Caulfield."


Yeah I saw those too.
That's one of the things that's slightly disappointed me. It at least sounded like she was not going to go down this road in the Diane Sawyer interview, and she hasn't gone as far down the road as our good friend Dave. But it's not surprising that this would be a deep rooted belief that she will always hold and I can't really blame her in many ways. I admire her honesty so far with her book and she has said things which do not paint her in the best light as she mentioned she would. Although she seems too empathic to outright slaughter Eric in her book, I find myself wondering how much she may like to.
I'm only about 40 pages into her book, but from what I understand there will be some more subtle and not so subtle "Eric blame" coming up.
The unfortunate truth is that we will never know what went on behind closed doors between Eric and Dylan.
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PostSubject: Re: A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses   A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses Icon_minitimeMon Feb 15, 2016 4:48 pm

But she has done us a great service, in one respect. She has confirmed for us that Eric was, indeed, bullied:
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PostSubject: Re: A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses   A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses Icon_minitimeMon Feb 15, 2016 4:58 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Another tidbit from the Acknowledgements:

She thanks Nate Dykeman, but not Brooks Brown.

Oh you mean she didn't thank Judy for showing up at her home on the day of the shooting? I think I need to let go of this as despite Judy's reasons I do feel this was a slightly inappropriate move. Again it probably wasn't but it all just feels a little too nosey to me.
I came across the section when Sue details the bomb squad arriving on pg(19) and describes herself, Tom, Byron, Allison (who lived in the studio outbuilding) AND Judy sheltering from the rain outside her home. Sounds like Judy stayed quite a while.
This is just all my instant reaction to this scenario, maybe I'll feel differently once I've reflected on it.

To go back to the Cullen reference. I'm just processing the idea Sue would use him to "fact check" and to "help with accuracy."
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PostSubject: Re: A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses   A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses Icon_minitimeMon Feb 15, 2016 6:12 pm

Any word of how involved Cullen was? I'm sure I read somewhere he had approximately 10 hours worth of phone calls with her?
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PostSubject: Re: A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses   A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses Icon_minitimeSun Mar 27, 2016 2:47 pm

I've posted this in another thread, but I'm putting it here too.

I've read her book and watched most of the interviews. I do believe she's genuine but to be honest, there's something off about her. Multiple times in the book and in the interviews she repeats the same flowery clichés and metaphors when describing her feelings. It is a bit too much at times. It's like she's quoting piece of literature, and could be mistaken as disingenuous or detached.

Something which struck me was one of the survivors posted on Facebook that Wayne and Kathy's letter so cold and emotionally stunted, while the Klebold's was personally and heartfelt whilst other's were angry that Sue wrote to them. Now, I'm not one to talk because I have not suffered such a tragedy, but I could almost see why victims and survivors are not happy, because her rhetoric is to poetic and fluffy to come across as insincere in my eyes.
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PostSubject: Re: A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses   A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses Icon_minitimeSun Mar 27, 2016 3:00 pm


I was having a discussion about this on Youtube with a few people I'd like to share one of their comments (I wonder if they post here?)

"What are Eric's parents suppose to say? They will NEVER speak out. Sue Klebold can speak out, because as far as police/sociologists/psychologists are concerned, Dylan's involvement stemmed from depressed/self-loathing/etc. There are a lot of "what-ifs" with him. "What if someone found out," "What if he got help," "What if he never met Eric,".....as far as Dylan is concerned, he may have ended up a normal, healthy person if he had gotten help and/or never met Eric (or, as bad as it is to say, kill himself without hurting anyone else). Also, there were very few indicators with Dylan that anything was wrong. For the most part he was acting normal, hanging with friends, had plans for the future, etc. Eric, on the other hand, is considered a psychopath and the only "what if" for him is, "What is columbine never happened," he would have probably kept on committing some other crimes until he landed in prison or dead. There were also HUGE red flags with Eric, that his parents just brushed off. So what are his parents suppose to say? "Sorry, our son was very obviously seriously disturbed, we ignored all the warning signs, and were generally bad at this whole parenting thing." That's all they can say. There is really no sympathy from that."


I agree with that comment. To be completely honest, I still think Sue is in denial about Dylan, she can say she isn't but I just don't believe it.
Also, call me a cynic but I don't know how much I buy into the "I want to help other depressed teens" spiel. I do think Sue has come forward to clear HER own name, to show her as the caring, empathetic parent. She threw a lot of shade at Eric in her book, and in turn the Harris family under the bus as far as I'm concerned.

I'm not blaming the Klebold or Harris family for what happened, I just question the sincerity of Sue's actions (see my above post.)
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PostSubject: Re: A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses   A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses Icon_minitimeSun Mar 27, 2016 10:28 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:

I was having a discussion about this on Youtube with a few people I'd like to share one of their comments (I wonder if they post here?)

"What are Eric's parents suppose to say? They will NEVER speak out. Sue Klebold can speak out, because as far as police/sociologists/psychologists are concerned, Dylan's involvement stemmed from depressed/self-loathing/etc. There are a lot of "what-ifs" with him. "What if someone found out," "What if he got help," "What if he never met Eric,".....as far as Dylan is concerned, he may have ended up a normal, healthy person if he had gotten help and/or never met Eric (or, as bad as it is to say, kill himself without hurting anyone else). Also, there were very few indicators with Dylan that anything was wrong. For the most part he was acting normal, hanging with friends, had plans for the future, etc. Eric, on the other hand, is considered a psychopath and the only "what if" for him is, "What is columbine never happened," he would have probably kept on committing some other crimes until he landed in prison or dead. There were also HUGE red flags with Eric, that his parents just brushed off. So what are his parents suppose to say? "Sorry, our son was very obviously seriously disturbed, we ignored all the warning signs, and were generally bad at this whole parenting thing." That's all they can say. There is really no sympathy from that."


I agree with that comment. To be completely honest, I still think Sue is in denial about Dylan, she can say she isn't but I just don't believe it.
Also, call me a cynic but I don't know how much I buy into the "I want to help other depressed teens" spiel. I do think Sue has come forward to clear HER own name, to show her as the caring, empathetic parent. She threw a lot of shade at Eric in her book, and in turn the Harris family under the bus as far as I'm concerned.

I'm not blaming the Klebold or Harris family for what happened, I just question the sincerity of Sue's actions (see my above post.)


I agree with your comments astrospace but not the comments of the You Tuber.
I feel they are unfair.
Dylan didn't put up many more red flags than Eric did and Eric was in fact at least a bit more receptive to getting help around the time of their arrest.I believe Eric parents deserve much sympathy but if they don't then why do the Klebold's?


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PostSubject: Re: A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses   A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses Icon_minitimeMon Mar 28, 2016 3:36 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:

I was having a discussion about this on Youtube with a few people I'd like to share one of their comments (I wonder if they post here?)

"What are Eric's parents suppose to say? They will NEVER speak out. Sue Klebold can speak out, because as far as police/sociologists/psychologists are concerned, Dylan's involvement stemmed from depressed/self-loathing/etc. There are a lot of "what-ifs" with him. "What if someone found out," "What if he got help," "What if he never met Eric,".....as far as Dylan is concerned, he may have ended up a normal, healthy person if he had gotten help and/or never met Eric (or, as bad as it is to say, kill himself without hurting anyone else). Also, there were very few indicators with Dylan that anything was wrong. For the most part he was acting normal, hanging with friends, had plans for the future, etc. Eric, on the other hand, is considered a psychopath and the only "what if" for him is, "What is columbine never happened," he would have probably kept on committing some other crimes until he landed in prison or dead. There were also HUGE red flags with Eric, that his parents just brushed off. So what are his parents suppose to say? "Sorry, our son was very obviously seriously disturbed, we ignored all the warning signs, and were generally bad at this whole parenting thing." That's all they can say. There is really no sympathy from that."


I agree with that comment. To be completely honest, I still think Sue is in denial about Dylan, she can say she isn't but I just don't believe it.
Also, call me a cynic but I don't know how much I buy into the "I want to help other depressed teens" spiel. I do think Sue has come forward to clear HER own name, to show her as the caring, empathetic parent. She threw a lot of shade at Eric in her book, and in turn the Harris family under the bus as far as I'm concerned.

I'm not blaming the Klebold or Harris family for what happened, I just question the sincerity of Sue's actions (see my above post.)


I agree with t your comments astrospace but not the comments of the You Tuber.
I feel they are unfair.
Eric didn't put up many more red flags than Eric did and Eric was in fact at least a bit more receptive to getting help around the time of their arrest.I believe Eric parents deserve much sympathy but if they don't then why do the Klebold's?

I just reread the youtube comments, and realised I didn't explain what part I agree with.
I agree with what she says in WHY the Harris family can't come forward because there is still room for sympathy for Dylan's, but Eric's have been completely torn to shreds.

While I do believe the Harris family showed some questionable behaviour - IE, Wayne's journal and complete dismissal of some of Eric's behaviour - I don't believe they should receive the hate they do.
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PostSubject: Re: A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses   A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses Icon_minitimeMon Mar 28, 2016 11:21 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:

I was having a discussion about this on Youtube with a few people I'd like to share one of their comments (I wonder if they post here?)

"What are Eric's parents suppose to say? They will NEVER speak out. Sue Klebold can speak out, because as far as police/sociologists/psychologists are concerned, Dylan's involvement stemmed from depressed/self-loathing/etc. There are a lot of "what-ifs" with him. "What if someone found out," "What if he got help," "What if he never met Eric,".....as far as Dylan is concerned, he may have ended up a normal, healthy person if he had gotten help and/or never met Eric (or, as bad as it is to say, kill himself without hurting anyone else). Also, there were very few indicators with Dylan that anything was wrong. For the most part he was acting normal, hanging with friends, had plans for the future, etc. Eric, on the other hand, is considered a psychopath and the only "what if" for him is, "What is columbine never happened," he would have probably kept on committing some other crimes until he landed in prison or dead. There were also HUGE red flags with Eric, that his parents just brushed off. So what are his parents suppose to say? "Sorry, our son was very obviously seriously disturbed, we ignored all the warning signs, and were generally bad at this whole parenting thing." That's all they can say. There is really no sympathy from that."


I agree with that comment. To be completely honest, I still think Sue is in denial about Dylan, she can say she isn't but I just don't believe it.
Also, call me a cynic but I don't know how much I buy into the "I want to help other depressed teens" spiel. I do think Sue has come forward to clear HER own name, to show her as the caring, empathetic parent. She threw a lot of shade at Eric in her book, and in turn the Harris family under the bus as far as I'm concerned.

I'm not blaming the Klebold or Harris family for what happened, I just question the sincerity of Sue's actions (see my above post.)


I agree with t your comments astrospace but not the comments of the You Tuber.
I feel they are unfair.
Eric didn't put up many more red flags than Eric did and Eric was in fact at least a bit more receptive to getting help around the time of their arrest.I believe Eric parents deserve much sympathy but if they don't then why do the Klebold's?

I just reread the youtube comments, and realised I didn't explain what part I agree with.
I agree with what she says in WHY the Harris family can't come forward because there is still room for sympathy for Dylan's, but Eric's have been completely torn to shreds.

While I do believe the Harris family showed some questionable behaviour - IE, Wayne's journal and complete dismissal of some of Eric's behaviour - I don't believe they should receive the hate they do.


If you look back at it in context, was it that questionable?
Eric really didn't do anything that bad before the shootings.
I think Eric's parents thought he was having some problems and needed some help but it probably didn't seem like much more than teen angst at that time.
A lot of what he did can be explained away if you look at it outside the shootings.
One thing I think the notebook proves is that this was not a man who didn't care about his son.
I think it shows the opposite.
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PostSubject: Re: A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses   A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses Icon_minitimeTue Mar 29, 2016 6:37 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:

I was having a discussion about this on Youtube with a few people I'd like to share one of their comments (I wonder if they post here?)

"What are Eric's parents suppose to say? They will NEVER speak out. Sue Klebold can speak out, because as far as police/sociologists/psychologists are concerned, Dylan's involvement stemmed from depressed/self-loathing/etc. There are a lot of "what-ifs" with him. "What if someone found out," "What if he got help," "What if he never met Eric,".....as far as Dylan is concerned, he may have ended up a normal, healthy person if he had gotten help and/or never met Eric (or, as bad as it is to say, kill himself without hurting anyone else). Also, there were very few indicators with Dylan that anything was wrong. For the most part he was acting normal, hanging with friends, had plans for the future, etc. Eric, on the other hand, is considered a psychopath and the only "what if" for him is, "What is columbine never happened," he would have probably kept on committing some other crimes until he landed in prison or dead. There were also HUGE red flags with Eric, that his parents just brushed off. So what are his parents suppose to say? "Sorry, our son was very obviously seriously disturbed, we ignored all the warning signs, and were generally bad at this whole parenting thing." That's all they can say. There is really no sympathy from that."


I agree with that comment. To be completely honest, I still think Sue is in denial about Dylan, she can say she isn't but I just don't believe it.
Also, call me a cynic but I don't know how much I buy into the "I want to help other depressed teens" spiel. I do think Sue has come forward to clear HER own name, to show her as the caring, empathetic parent. She threw a lot of shade at Eric in her book, and in turn the Harris family under the bus as far as I'm concerned.

I'm not blaming the Klebold or Harris family for what happened, I just question the sincerity of Sue's actions (see my above post.)


I agree with t your comments astrospace but not the comments of the You Tuber.
I feel they are unfair.
Eric didn't put up many more red flags than Eric did and Eric was in fact at least a bit more receptive to getting help around the time of their arrest.I believe Eric parents deserve much sympathy but if they don't then why do the Klebold's?

I just reread the youtube comments, and realised I didn't explain what part I agree with.
I agree with what she says in WHY the Harris family can't come forward because there is still room for sympathy for Dylan's, but Eric's have been completely torn to shreds.

While I do believe the Harris family showed some questionable behaviour - IE, Wayne's journal and complete dismissal of some of Eric's behaviour - I don't believe they should receive the hate they do.


If you look back at it in context, was it that questionable?
Eric really didn't do anything that bad before the shootings.
I think Eric's parents  thought he was having some problems and needed some help but it probably didn't seem like much more than teen angst at that time.
A lot of what he did can be explained away if you look at it outside the shootings.
One thing I think the notebook proves is that this was not a man who didn't care about his son.
I think it shows the opposite.

Whilst I do agree with what you've said, Wayne's "Eric not a fault" comment was a bit dismissing considering it was in regard to him breaking a windshield (correct me if I'm wrong.)

Saying that, I can completely empathise with them when he said "we don't want to be blamed every time something happens" because I do think everyone looked to Eric every time some did happen, so I guess Wayne and Kathy were conflicted and wondered how much of Eric's troubled behaviour was real, and how much of it was the neighbours trying to stir the pot.
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PostSubject: Re: A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses   A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses Icon_minitimeTue Mar 29, 2016 9:40 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
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I was having a discussion about this on Youtube with a few people I'd like to share one of their comments (I wonder if they post here?)

"What are Eric's parents suppose to say? They will NEVER speak out. Sue Klebold can speak out, because as far as police/sociologists/psychologists are concerned, Dylan's involvement stemmed from depressed/self-loathing/etc. There are a lot of "what-ifs" with him. "What if someone found out," "What if he got help," "What if he never met Eric,".....as far as Dylan is concerned, he may have ended up a normal, healthy person if he had gotten help and/or never met Eric (or, as bad as it is to say, kill himself without hurting anyone else). Also, there were very few indicators with Dylan that anything was wrong. For the most part he was acting normal, hanging with friends, had plans for the future, etc. Eric, on the other hand, is considered a psychopath and the only "what if" for him is, "What is columbine never happened," he would have probably kept on committing some other crimes until he landed in prison or dead. There were also HUGE red flags with Eric, that his parents just brushed off. So what are his parents suppose to say? "Sorry, our son was very obviously seriously disturbed, we ignored all the warning signs, and were generally bad at this whole parenting thing." That's all they can say. There is really no sympathy from that."


I agree with that comment. To be completely honest, I still think Sue is in denial about Dylan, she can say she isn't but I just don't believe it.
Also, call me a cynic but I don't know how much I buy into the "I want to help other depressed teens" spiel. I do think Sue has come forward to clear HER own name, to show her as the caring, empathetic parent. She threw a lot of shade at Eric in her book, and in turn the Harris family under the bus as far as I'm concerned.

I'm not blaming the Klebold or Harris family for what happened, I just question the sincerity of Sue's actions (see my above post.)


I agree with t your comments astrospace but not the comments of the You Tuber.
I feel they are unfair.
Eric didn't put up many more red flags than Eric did and Eric was in fact at least a bit more receptive to getting help around the time of their arrest.I believe Eric parents deserve much sympathy but if they don't then why do the Klebold's?

I just reread the youtube comments, and realised I didn't explain what part I agree with.
I agree with what she says in WHY the Harris family can't come forward because there is still room for sympathy for Dylan's, but Eric's have been completely torn to shreds.

While I do believe the Harris family showed some questionable behaviour - IE, Wayne's journal and complete dismissal of some of Eric's behaviour - I don't believe they should receive the hate they do.


If you look back at it in context, was it that questionable?
Eric really didn't do anything that bad before the shootings.
I think Eric's parents  thought he was having some problems and needed some help but it probably didn't seem like much more than teen angst at that time.
A lot of what he did can be explained away if you look at it outside the shootings.
One thing I think the notebook proves is that this was not a man who didn't care about his son.
I think it shows the opposite.

Whilst I do agree with what you've said, Wayne's "Eric not a fault" comment was a bit dismissing considering it was in regard to him breaking a windshield (correct me if I'm wrong.)

Saying that, I can completely empathise with them when he said "we don't want to be blamed every time something happens" because I do think everyone looked to Eric every time some did happen, so I guess Wayne and Kathy were conflicted and wondered how much of Eric's troubled behaviour was real, and how much of it was the neighbours trying to stir the pot.

All good points. I think that Wayne said that Eric wasn't at fault about the windshield because Eric always claimed to everyone that he cracked the windshield by accident and was not purposefully aiming at Brooks car.
Eric was having a snowball fight at that time Brooks drove by with other kids at the bus stop so I'm not sure if he did it on purpose or not.Maybe Wayne thought Eric was being blamed too much for an accident? Judy Brown did not help the situation at that time either by calling up Wayne and saying things like "Your son is terrifying, your son is violent, your son is lying." because I think that made Wayne's protective ,parental instincts kick in so maybe he didn't listen the way he would have if she had taken another approach.
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PostSubject: Re: A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses   A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses Icon_minitimeTue Mar 29, 2016 10:58 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
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I was having a discussion about this on Youtube with a few people I'd like to share one of their comments (I wonder if they post here?)

"What are Eric's parents suppose to say? They will NEVER speak out. Sue Klebold can speak out, because as far as police/sociologists/psychologists are concerned, Dylan's involvement stemmed from depressed/self-loathing/etc. There are a lot of "what-ifs" with him. "What if someone found out," "What if he got help," "What if he never met Eric,".....as far as Dylan is concerned, he may have ended up a normal, healthy person if he had gotten help and/or never met Eric (or, as bad as it is to say, kill himself without hurting anyone else). Also, there were very few indicators with Dylan that anything was wrong. For the most part he was acting normal, hanging with friends, had plans for the future, etc. Eric, on the other hand, is considered a psychopath and the only "what if" for him is, "What is columbine never happened," he would have probably kept on committing some other crimes until he landed in prison or dead. There were also HUGE red flags with Eric, that his parents just brushed off. So what are his parents suppose to say? "Sorry, our son was very obviously seriously disturbed, we ignored all the warning signs, and were generally bad at this whole parenting thing." That's all they can say. There is really no sympathy from that."


I agree with that comment. To be completely honest, I still think Sue is in denial about Dylan, she can say she isn't but I just don't believe it.
Also, call me a cynic but I don't know how much I buy into the "I want to help other depressed teens" spiel. I do think Sue has come forward to clear HER own name, to show her as the caring, empathetic parent. She threw a lot of shade at Eric in her book, and in turn the Harris family under the bus as far as I'm concerned.

I'm not blaming the Klebold or Harris family for what happened, I just question the sincerity of Sue's actions (see my above post.)


I agree with t your comments astrospace but not the comments of the You Tuber.
I feel they are unfair.
Eric didn't put up many more red flags than Eric did and Eric was in fact at least a bit more receptive to getting help around the time of their arrest.I believe Eric parents deserve much sympathy but if they don't then why do the Klebold's?

I just reread the youtube comments, and realised I didn't explain what part I agree with.
I agree with what she says in WHY the Harris family can't come forward because there is still room for sympathy for Dylan's, but Eric's have been completely torn to shreds.

While I do believe the Harris family showed some questionable behaviour - IE, Wayne's journal and complete dismissal of some of Eric's behaviour - I don't believe they should receive the hate they do.


If you look back at it in context, was it that questionable?
Eric really didn't do anything that bad before the shootings.
I think Eric's parents  thought he was having some problems and needed some help but it probably didn't seem like much more than teen angst at that time.
A lot of what he did can be explained away if you look at it outside the shootings.
One thing I think the notebook proves is that this was not a man who didn't care about his son.
I think it shows the opposite.

Whilst I do agree with what you've said, Wayne's "Eric not a fault" comment was a bit dismissing considering it was in regard to him breaking a windshield (correct me if I'm wrong.)

Saying that, I can completely empathise with them when he said "we don't want to be blamed every time something happens" because I do think everyone looked to Eric every time some did happen, so I guess Wayne and Kathy were conflicted and wondered how much of Eric's troubled behaviour was real, and how much of it was the neighbours trying to stir the pot.

All good points. I think that Wayne said that Eric wasn't at fault about the windshield because Eric always claimed to everyone that he cracked the windshield by accident and was not purposefully aiming at Brooks car.
Eric was having a snowball fight at that time Brooks drove by with other kids at the bus stop so I'm not sure if he did it on purpose or not.Maybe Wayne thought Eric was being blamed too much for an accident? Judy Brown did not help the situation at that time either by calling up Wayne and saying things like "Your son is terrifying, your son is violent, your son is lying." because I think that made Wayne's protective ,parental instincts kick in so maybe he didn't listen the way he would have if she had taken another approach.

I've never met Judy Brown, but from everything I've heard about her and heard her say in interviews and such, I can absolutely see Wayne Harris being immediately defensive and going into protective parent mode. I wonder if Wayne was aware of Brooks' reputation of a liar and that influenced his perception of events as well. I have never seen or heard other witnesses of the windshield incident outside of Brooks, and then his mother reporting on the aftermath.
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PostSubject: Re: A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses   A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses Icon_minitimeWed Mar 30, 2016 5:59 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
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I was having a discussion about this on Youtube with a few people I'd like to share one of their comments (I wonder if they post here?)

"What are Eric's parents suppose to say? They will NEVER speak out. Sue Klebold can speak out, because as far as police/sociologists/psychologists are concerned, Dylan's involvement stemmed from depressed/self-loathing/etc. There are a lot of "what-ifs" with him. "What if someone found out," "What if he got help," "What if he never met Eric,".....as far as Dylan is concerned, he may have ended up a normal, healthy person if he had gotten help and/or never met Eric (or, as bad as it is to say, kill himself without hurting anyone else). Also, there were very few indicators with Dylan that anything was wrong. For the most part he was acting normal, hanging with friends, had plans for the future, etc. Eric, on the other hand, is considered a psychopath and the only "what if" for him is, "What is columbine never happened," he would have probably kept on committing some other crimes until he landed in prison or dead. There were also HUGE red flags with Eric, that his parents just brushed off. So what are his parents suppose to say? "Sorry, our son was very obviously seriously disturbed, we ignored all the warning signs, and were generally bad at this whole parenting thing." That's all they can say. There is really no sympathy from that."


I agree with that comment. To be completely honest, I still think Sue is in denial about Dylan, she can say she isn't but I just don't believe it.
Also, call me a cynic but I don't know how much I buy into the "I want to help other depressed teens" spiel. I do think Sue has come forward to clear HER own name, to show her as the caring, empathetic parent. She threw a lot of shade at Eric in her book, and in turn the Harris family under the bus as far as I'm concerned.

I'm not blaming the Klebold or Harris family for what happened, I just question the sincerity of Sue's actions (see my above post.)


I agree with t your comments astrospace but not the comments of the You Tuber.
I feel they are unfair.
Eric didn't put up many more red flags than Eric did and Eric was in fact at least a bit more receptive to getting help around the time of their arrest.I believe Eric parents deserve much sympathy but if they don't then why do the Klebold's?

I just reread the youtube comments, and realised I didn't explain what part I agree with.
I agree with what she says in WHY the Harris family can't come forward because there is still room for sympathy for Dylan's, but Eric's have been completely torn to shreds.

While I do believe the Harris family showed some questionable behaviour - IE, Wayne's journal and complete dismissal of some of Eric's behaviour - I don't believe they should receive the hate they do.


If you look back at it in context, was it that questionable?
Eric really didn't do anything that bad before the shootings.
I think Eric's parents  thought he was having some problems and needed some help but it probably didn't seem like much more than teen angst at that time.
A lot of what he did can be explained away if you look at it outside the shootings.
One thing I think the notebook proves is that this was not a man who didn't care about his son.
I think it shows the opposite.

Whilst I do agree with what you've said, Wayne's "Eric not a fault" comment was a bit dismissing considering it was in regard to him breaking a windshield (correct me if I'm wrong.)

Saying that, I can completely empathise with them when he said "we don't want to be blamed every time something happens" because I do think everyone looked to Eric every time some did happen, so I guess Wayne and Kathy were conflicted and wondered how much of Eric's troubled behaviour was real, and how much of it was the neighbours trying to stir the pot.

All good points. I think that Wayne said that Eric wasn't at fault about the windshield because Eric always claimed to everyone that he cracked the windshield by accident and was not purposefully aiming at Brooks car.
Eric was having a snowball fight at that time Brooks drove by with other kids at the bus stop so I'm not sure if he did it on purpose or not.Maybe Wayne thought Eric was being blamed too much for an accident? Judy Brown did not help the situation at that time either by calling up Wayne and saying things like "Your son is terrifying, your son is violent, your son is lying." because I think that made Wayne's protective ,parental instincts kick in so maybe he didn't listen the way he would have if she had taken another approach.

I've never met Judy Brown, but from everything I've heard about her and heard her say in interviews and such, I can absolutely see Wayne Harris being immediately defensive and going into protective parent mode. I wonder if Wayne was aware of Brooks' reputation of a liar and that influenced his perception of events as well. I have never seen or heard other witnesses of the windshield incident outside of Brooks, and then his mother reporting on the aftermath.

Yeah, I get the impression Judy Brown is an arrogant "window twitcher", a nose neighbour who revels in other people's short comings.
Sorry, but I just find her smarmy.
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PostSubject: Re: A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses   A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses Icon_minitimeTue Apr 05, 2016 9:39 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
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[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:

I was having a discussion about this on Youtube with a few people I'd like to share one of their comments (I wonder if they post here?)

"What are Eric's parents suppose to say? They will NEVER speak out. Sue Klebold can speak out, because as far as police/sociologists/psychologists are concerned, Dylan's involvement stemmed from depressed/self-loathing/etc. There are a lot of "what-ifs" with him. "What if someone found out," "What if he got help," "What if he never met Eric,".....as far as Dylan is concerned, he may have ended up a normal, healthy person if he had gotten help and/or never met Eric (or, as bad as it is to say, kill himself without hurting anyone else). Also, there were very few indicators with Dylan that anything was wrong. For the most part he was acting normal, hanging with friends, had plans for the future, etc. Eric, on the other hand, is considered a psychopath and the only "what if" for him is, "What is columbine never happened," he would have probably kept on committing some other crimes until he landed in prison or dead. There were also HUGE red flags with Eric, that his parents just brushed off. So what are his parents suppose to say? "Sorry, our son was very obviously seriously disturbed, we ignored all the warning signs, and were generally bad at this whole parenting thing." That's all they can say. There is really no sympathy from that."


I agree with that comment. To be completely honest, I still think Sue is in denial about Dylan, she can say she isn't but I just don't believe it.
Also, call me a cynic but I don't know how much I buy into the "I want to help other depressed teens" spiel. I do think Sue has come forward to clear HER own name, to show her as the caring, empathetic parent. She threw a lot of shade at Eric in her book, and in turn the Harris family under the bus as far as I'm concerned.

I'm not blaming the Klebold or Harris family for what happened, I just question the sincerity of Sue's actions (see my above post.)


I agree with t your comments astrospace but not the comments of the You Tuber.
I feel they are unfair.
Eric didn't put up many more red flags than Eric did and Eric was in fact at least a bit more receptive to getting help around the time of their arrest.I believe Eric parents deserve much sympathy but if they don't then why do the Klebold's?

I just reread the youtube comments, and realised I didn't explain what part I agree with.
I agree with what she says in WHY the Harris family can't come forward because there is still room for sympathy for Dylan's, but Eric's have been completely torn to shreds.

While I do believe the Harris family showed some questionable behaviour - IE, Wayne's journal and complete dismissal of some of Eric's behaviour - I don't believe they should receive the hate they do.


If you look back at it in context, was it that questionable?
Eric really didn't do anything that bad before the shootings.
I think Eric's parents  thought he was having some problems and needed some help but it probably didn't seem like much more than teen angst at that time.
A lot of what he did can be explained away if you look at it outside the shootings.
One thing I think the notebook proves is that this was not a man who didn't care about his son.
I think it shows the opposite.

Whilst I do agree with what you've said, Wayne's "Eric not a fault" comment was a bit dismissing considering it was in regard to him breaking a windshield (correct me if I'm wrong.)

Saying that, I can completely empathise with them when he said "we don't want to be blamed every time something happens" because I do think everyone looked to Eric every time some did happen, so I guess Wayne and Kathy were conflicted and wondered how much of Eric's troubled behaviour was real, and how much of it was the neighbours trying to stir the pot.

All good points. I think that Wayne said that Eric wasn't at fault about the windshield because Eric always claimed to everyone that he cracked the windshield by accident and was not purposefully aiming at Brooks car.
Eric was having a snowball fight at that time Brooks drove by with other kids at the bus stop so I'm not sure if he did it on purpose or not.Maybe Wayne thought Eric was being blamed too much for an accident? Judy Brown did not help the situation at that time either by calling up Wayne and saying things like "Your son is terrifying, your son is violent, your son is lying." because I think that made Wayne's protective ,parental instincts kick in so maybe he didn't listen the way he would have if she had taken another approach.

I've never met Judy Brown, but from everything I've heard about her and heard her say in interviews and such, I can absolutely see Wayne Harris being immediately defensive and going into protective parent mode. I wonder if Wayne was aware of Brooks' reputation of a liar and that influenced his perception of events as well. I have never seen or heard other witnesses of the windshield incident outside of Brooks, and then his mother reporting on the aftermath.


There was a friend of Brooks in the car at the time but they have never come forward to give their own account of what happened.

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We're all going to die, all of us, what a circus; That alone should make us love each other but it doesn't. We are terrorized and flattened by trivialities, we are eaten up by nothing.-Charles Bukowski
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PostSubject: Re: A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses   A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses Icon_minitimeTue Apr 05, 2016 9:44 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
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I was having a discussion about this on Youtube with a few people I'd like to share one of their comments (I wonder if they post here?)

"What are Eric's parents suppose to say? They will NEVER speak out. Sue Klebold can speak out, because as far as police/sociologists/psychologists are concerned, Dylan's involvement stemmed from depressed/self-loathing/etc. There are a lot of "what-ifs" with him. "What if someone found out," "What if he got help," "What if he never met Eric,".....as far as Dylan is concerned, he may have ended up a normal, healthy person if he had gotten help and/or never met Eric (or, as bad as it is to say, kill himself without hurting anyone else). Also, there were very few indicators with Dylan that anything was wrong. For the most part he was acting normal, hanging with friends, had plans for the future, etc. Eric, on the other hand, is considered a psychopath and the only "what if" for him is, "What is columbine never happened," he would have probably kept on committing some other crimes until he landed in prison or dead. There were also HUGE red flags with Eric, that his parents just brushed off. So what are his parents suppose to say? "Sorry, our son was very obviously seriously disturbed, we ignored all the warning signs, and were generally bad at this whole parenting thing." That's all they can say. There is really no sympathy from that."


I agree with that comment. To be completely honest, I still think Sue is in denial about Dylan, she can say she isn't but I just don't believe it.
Also, call me a cynic but I don't know how much I buy into the "I want to help other depressed teens" spiel. I do think Sue has come forward to clear HER own name, to show her as the caring, empathetic parent. She threw a lot of shade at Eric in her book, and in turn the Harris family under the bus as far as I'm concerned.

I'm not blaming the Klebold or Harris family for what happened, I just question the sincerity of Sue's actions (see my above post.)


I agree with t your comments astrospace but not the comments of the You Tuber.
I feel they are unfair.
Eric didn't put up many more red flags than Eric did and Eric was in fact at least a bit more receptive to getting help around the time of their arrest.I believe Eric parents deserve much sympathy but if they don't then why do the Klebold's?

I just reread the youtube comments, and realised I didn't explain what part I agree with.
I agree with what she says in WHY the Harris family can't come forward because there is still room for sympathy for Dylan's, but Eric's have been completely torn to shreds.

While I do believe the Harris family showed some questionable behaviour - IE, Wayne's journal and complete dismissal of some of Eric's behaviour - I don't believe they should receive the hate they do.


If you look back at it in context, was it that questionable?
Eric really didn't do anything that bad before the shootings.
I think Eric's parents  thought he was having some problems and needed some help but it probably didn't seem like much more than teen angst at that time.
A lot of what he did can be explained away if you look at it outside the shootings.
One thing I think the notebook proves is that this was not a man who didn't care about his son.
I think it shows the opposite.

Whilst I do agree with what you've said, Wayne's "Eric not a fault" comment was a bit dismissing considering it was in regard to him breaking a windshield (correct me if I'm wrong.)

Saying that, I can completely empathise with them when he said "we don't want to be blamed every time something happens" because I do think everyone looked to Eric every time some did happen, so I guess Wayne and Kathy were conflicted and wondered how much of Eric's troubled behaviour was real, and how much of it was the neighbours trying to stir the pot.

All good points. I think that Wayne said that Eric wasn't at fault about the windshield because Eric always claimed to everyone that he cracked the windshield by accident and was not purposefully aiming at Brooks car.
Eric was having a snowball fight at that time Brooks drove by with other kids at the bus stop so I'm not sure if he did it on purpose or not.Maybe Wayne thought Eric was being blamed too much for an accident? Judy Brown did not help the situation at that time either by calling up Wayne and saying things like "Your son is terrifying, your son is violent, your son is lying." because I think that made Wayne's protective ,parental instincts kick in so maybe he didn't listen the way he would have if she had taken another approach.

I've never met Judy Brown, but from everything I've heard about her and heard her say in interviews and such, I can absolutely see Wayne Harris being immediately defensive and going into protective parent mode. I wonder if Wayne was aware of Brooks' reputation of a liar and that influenced his perception of events as well. I have never seen or heard other witnesses of the windshield incident outside of Brooks, and then his mother reporting on the aftermath.

Yeah, I get the impression Judy Brown is an arrogant "window twitcher", a nose neighbour who revels in other people's short comings.
Sorry, but I just find her smarmy.


The Klebolds and Browns were close when their boys were young, then reconnected after the shootings and were close again for a few years but they fell out and Judy said that she was ashamed she ever called Sue her friend.
You can read about it below

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We're all going to die, all of us, what a circus; That alone should make us love each other but it doesn't. We are terrorized and flattened by trivialities, we are eaten up by nothing.-Charles Bukowski


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PostSubject: Re: A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses   A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses Icon_minitimeWed Apr 06, 2016 3:42 am

Do we know why they fell out? Anyone got any thoughts?

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PostSubject: Re: A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses   A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses Icon_minitimeWed Apr 06, 2016 8:31 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Do we know why they fell out? Anyone got any thoughts?


From the article posted above

J. BROWN: We were good friends before and I will tell you though we had had a falling out because I believed that she should speak with the parents of the kids that were murdered. We tried to arrange that because they said we don‘t need to go to court, we just want answers and they were willing to do it outside the court system. These are not angry, out of control parents. They just want answers and the Klebolds refused to do it. They refused to sit with them. They refused to do it.
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PostSubject: Re: A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses   A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses Icon_minitimeWed Apr 06, 2016 9:06 am

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[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Do we know why they fell out? Anyone got any thoughts?


From the article posted above

J. BROWN:  We were good friends before and I will tell you though we had had a falling out because I believed that she should speak with the parents of the kids that were murdered.  We tried to arrange that because they said we don‘t need to go to court, we just want answers and they were willing to do it outside the court system.  These are not angry, out of control parents.  They just want answers and the Klebolds refused to do it.  They refused to sit with them.  They refused to do it.

Good riddance to the Browns then. They have no right whatsoever to tell the Klebold family what they need to do.
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PostSubject: Re: A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses   A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses Icon_minitimeWed Apr 06, 2016 9:33 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Do we know why they fell out? Anyone got any thoughts?


From the article posted above

J. BROWN:  We were good friends before and I will tell you though we had had a falling out because I believed that she should speak with the parents of the kids that were murdered.  We tried to arrange that because they said we don‘t need to go to court, we just want answers and they were willing to do it outside the court system.  These are not angry, out of control parents.  They just want answers and the Klebolds refused to do it.  They refused to sit with them.  They refused to do it.

Good riddance to the Browns then. They have no right whatsoever to tell the Klebold family what they need to do.

I am on the fence usually with the Browns. This article made me so mad. Very very mad at them lol. This was from 2004 so things could have changed but really I don't think so. They just go on and on about how it is the Klebold and Harris family's fault. They don't want a sorry from them. They want EVERYTHING they know. The have no idea what they want but they want it.

Look I understand their sons were at the school on the 20, Brooks had been threatened by Eric, and he was friends with Dylan for a very long time but come on. Your sons were not killed or injured. Yes emotional scars hurt too but I think they just push too far. I feel a bit bad for Brooks in a way. I wonder if he can ever have a normal conversation with his parents? They changed his room to an evidence room and it seems they are obsessed. Anyway...this is way OT. Sorry !!
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PostSubject: Re: A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses   A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses Icon_minitimeWed Apr 06, 2016 10:20 am

now i have an explanation why they aren´t friends anymore. but hey, they didn´t lose a child and their children were unharmed after this day. so i think they should shut up. it would be interesting to know how the browns react to sue´s book?

edit: randy didn´t like peter langman´s book "why kids kill". here´s his review:


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PostSubject: Re: A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses   A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses Icon_minitimeWed Apr 06, 2016 1:47 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Do we know why they fell out? Anyone got any thoughts?


From the article posted above

J. BROWN:  We were good friends before and I will tell you though we had had a falling out because I believed that she should speak with the parents of the kids that were murdered.  We tried to arrange that because they said we don‘t need to go to court, we just want answers and they were willing to do it outside the court system.  These are not angry, out of control parents.  They just want answers and the Klebolds refused to do it.  They refused to sit with them.  They refused to do it.

Good riddance to the Browns then. They have no right whatsoever to tell the Klebold family what they need to do.

I am on the fence usually with the Browns.  This article made me so mad.  Very very mad at them lol.  This was from 2004 so things could have changed but really I don't think so.  They just go on and on about how it is the Klebold and Harris family's fault.  They don't want a sorry from them.  They want EVERYTHING they know.  The have no idea what they want but they want it.

Look I understand their sons were at the school on the 20, Brooks had been threatened by Eric, and he was friends with Dylan for a very long time but come on.  Your sons were not killed or injured.  Yes emotional scars hurt too but I think they just push too far.  I feel a bit bad for Brooks in a way.  I wonder if he can ever have a normal conversation with his parents?  They changed his room to an evidence room and it seems they are obsessed.  Anyway...this is way OT.  Sorry !!

It makes me mad as well.  If Judy Brown was a good friend to Sue, then she would have been supportive of her decision and not so judgmental. She has no idea what it's like to walk in Sue and Tom's shoes.
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PostSubject: Re: A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses   A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses Icon_minitimeWed Apr 06, 2016 3:12 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Do we know why they fell out? Anyone got any thoughts?


From the article posted above

J. BROWN:  We were good friends before and I will tell you though we had had a falling out because I believed that she should speak with the parents of the kids that were murdered.  We tried to arrange that because they said we don‘t need to go to court, we just want answers and they were willing to do it outside the court system.  These are not angry, out of control parents.  They just want answers and the Klebolds refused to do it.  They refused to sit with them.  They refused to do it.

Good riddance to the Browns then. They have no right whatsoever to tell the Klebold family what they need to do.

I am on the fence usually with the Browns.  This article made me so mad.  Very very mad at them lol.  This was from 2004 so things could have changed but really I don't think so.  They just go on and on about how it is the Klebold and Harris family's fault.  They don't want a sorry from them.  They want EVERYTHING they know.  The have no idea what they want but they want it.

Look I understand their sons were at the school on the 20, Brooks had been threatened by Eric, and he was friends with Dylan for a very long time but come on.  Your sons were not killed or injured.  Yes emotional scars hurt too but I think they just push too far.  I feel a bit bad for Brooks in a way.  I wonder if he can ever have a normal conversation with his parents?  They changed his room to an evidence room and it seems they are obsessed.  Anyway...this is way OT.  Sorry !!

It makes me mad as well.  If Judy Brown was a good friend to Sue, then she would have been supportive of her decision and not so judgmental. She has no idea what it's like to walk in Sue and Tom's shoes.

have to agree. a friend is someone who doesn´t judge you.
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PostSubject: Re: A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses   A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses Icon_minitimeThu Apr 07, 2016 11:53 am

I can't blame the Klebolds for not wanting to meet outside of a court system.Some of those people were so angry for so long a time that irrationally or not I would have been afraid of being physically attacked .
Yes,the other parents had the right to be angry but the Klebolds had the right to try to protect themselves too.

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PostSubject: Re: A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses   A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses Icon_minitimeFri Apr 08, 2016 7:00 pm

@astrospace92 wrote:

I was having a discussion about this on Youtube with a few people I'd like to share one of their comments (I wonder if they post here?)

"What are Eric's parents suppose to say? They will NEVER speak out. Sue Klebold can speak out, because as far as police/sociologists/psychologists are concerned, Dylan's involvement stemmed from depressed/self-loathing/etc. There are a lot of "what-ifs" with him. "What if someone found out," "What if he got help," "What if he never met Eric,".....as far as Dylan is concerned, he may have ended up a normal, healthy person if he had gotten help and/or never met Eric (or, as bad as it is to say, kill himself without hurting anyone else). Also, there were very few indicators with Dylan that anything was wrong. For the most part he was acting normal, hanging with friends, had plans for the future, etc. Eric, on the other hand, is considered a psychopath and the only "what if" for him is, "What is columbine never happened," he would have probably kept on committing some other crimes until he landed in prison or dead. There were also HUGE red flags with Eric, that his parents just brushed off. So what are his parents suppose to say? "Sorry, our son was very obviously seriously disturbed, we ignored all the warning signs, and were generally bad at this whole parenting thing." That's all they can say. There is really no sympathy from that."


I agree with that comment. To be completely honest, I still think Sue is in denial about Dylan, she can say she isn't but I just don't believe it.
Also, call me a cynic but I don't know how much I buy into the "I want to help other depressed teens" spiel. I do think Sue has come forward to clear HER own name, to show her as the caring, empathetic parent. She threw a lot of shade at Eric in her book, and in turn the Harris family under the bus as far as I'm concerned.

I'm not blaming the Klebold or Harris family for what happened, I just question the sincerity of Sue's actions (see my above post.)

I agreeee so much with your comments, i do not feel she is really sorry for what happened. IMO she probably has some traits that dylan had i mean she was his mother.
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PostSubject: Re: A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses   A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses Icon_minitimeSat Apr 09, 2016 3:37 pm

mSinderstood wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:

I was having a discussion about this on Youtube with a few people I'd like to share one of their comments (I wonder if they post here?)

"What are Eric's parents suppose to say? They will NEVER speak out. Sue Klebold can speak out, because as far as police/sociologists/psychologists are concerned, Dylan's involvement stemmed from depressed/self-loathing/etc. There are a lot of "what-ifs" with him. "What if someone found out," "What if he got help," "What if he never met Eric,".....as far as Dylan is concerned, he may have ended up a normal, healthy person if he had gotten help and/or never met Eric (or, as bad as it is to say, kill himself without hurting anyone else). Also, there were very few indicators with Dylan that anything was wrong. For the most part he was acting normal, hanging with friends, had plans for the future, etc. Eric, on the other hand, is considered a psychopath and the only "what if" for him is, "What is columbine never happened," he would have probably kept on committing some other crimes until he landed in prison or dead. There were also HUGE red flags with Eric, that his parents just brushed off. So what are his parents suppose to say? "Sorry, our son was very obviously seriously disturbed, we ignored all the warning signs, and were generally bad at this whole parenting thing." That's all they can say. There is really no sympathy from that."


I agree with that comment. To be completely honest, I still think Sue is in denial about Dylan, she can say she isn't but I just don't believe it.
Also, call me a cynic but I don't know how much I buy into the "I want to help other depressed teens" spiel. I do think Sue has come forward to clear HER own name, to show her as the caring, empathetic parent. She threw a lot of shade at Eric in her book, and in turn the Harris family under the bus as far as I'm concerned.

I'm not blaming the Klebold or Harris family for what happened, I just question the sincerity of Sue's actions (see my above post.)

I agreeee so much with your comments, i do not feel she is really sorry for what happened. IMO she probably has some traits that dylan had i mean she was his mother.

Great point MSinderstood, I didn't even think of that actually, I haven't seen it discussed much!
I wonder how much they shared personality wise.

I was flicking through the book again and she mentions how she was secretly pleased Eric didn't know what he wanted to do with his life after the Marines fell through…wtf? …hmm..
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PostSubject: Re: A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses   A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses Icon_minitimeTue Apr 12, 2016 9:29 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
mSinderstood wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:

I was having a discussion about this on Youtube with a few people I'd like to share one of their comments (I wonder if they post here?)

"What are Eric's parents suppose to say? They will NEVER speak out. Sue Klebold can speak out, because as far as police/sociologists/psychologists are concerned, Dylan's involvement stemmed from depressed/self-loathing/etc. There are a lot of "what-ifs" with him. "What if someone found out," "What if he got help," "What if he never met Eric,".....as far as Dylan is concerned, he may have ended up a normal, healthy person if he had gotten help and/or never met Eric (or, as bad as it is to say, kill himself without hurting anyone else). Also, there were very few indicators with Dylan that anything was wrong. For the most part he was acting normal, hanging with friends, had plans for the future, etc. Eric, on the other hand, is considered a psychopath and the only "what if" for him is, "What is columbine never happened," he would have probably kept on committing some other crimes until he landed in prison or dead. There were also HUGE red flags with Eric, that his parents just brushed off. So what are his parents suppose to say? "Sorry, our son was very obviously seriously disturbed, we ignored all the warning signs, and were generally bad at this whole parenting thing." That's all they can say. There is really no sympathy from that."


I agree with that comment. To be completely honest, I still think Sue is in denial about Dylan, she can say she isn't but I just don't believe it.
Also, call me a cynic but I don't know how much I buy into the "I want to help other depressed teens" spiel. I do think Sue has come forward to clear HER own name, to show her as the caring, empathetic parent. She threw a lot of shade at Eric in her book, and in turn the Harris family under the bus as far as I'm concerned.

I'm not blaming the Klebold or Harris family for what happened, I just question the sincerity of Sue's actions (see my above post.)

I agreeee so much with your comments, i do not feel she is really sorry for what happened. IMO she probably has some traits that dylan had i mean she was his mother.

Great point MSinderstood, I didn't even think of that actually, I haven't seen it discussed much!  
I wonder how much they shared personality wise.

I was flicking through the book again and she mentions how she was secretly pleased Eric didn't know what he wanted to do with his life after the Marines fell through…wtf? …hmm..


She won't even admit that Eric was Dylan's best friend when they died.She claims Nate Dykeman was.

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PostSubject: Re: A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses   A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses Icon_minitimeTue Jun 28, 2016 4:29 pm

It was true that Nate was Dylan's best friend(or one of them). And even after his death Nate still remembers him as well as visiting Sue whenever he's in town. That's the sign of true friendship.

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PostSubject: Re: A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses   A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses Icon_minitimeTue Jun 28, 2016 4:48 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
It was true that Nate was Dylan's best friend(or one of them). And even after his death Nate still remembers him as well as visiting Sue whenever he's in town. That's the sign of true friendship.

Dylan did list he had several close friends in diversion. I think though when Zach and Nate got girlfriends this pushed Dylan away. Or I should say Dylan pushed himself away. I still think they were friends even at the end, but Eric was his "best" friend and the one he was spending most of his time with and talking with. He may or may not have used Eric but He certainly was not as close to others as he was to Eric at the end.
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PostSubject: Re: A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses   A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses Icon_minitimeThu Jun 30, 2016 12:36 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
mSinderstood wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:

I was having a discussion about this on Youtube with a few people I'd like to share one of their comments (I wonder if they post here?)

"What are Eric's parents suppose to say? They will NEVER speak out. Sue Klebold can speak out, because as far as police/sociologists/psychologists are concerned, Dylan's involvement stemmed from depressed/self-loathing/etc. There are a lot of "what-ifs" with him. "What if someone found out," "What if he got help," "What if he never met Eric,".....as far as Dylan is concerned, he may have ended up a normal, healthy person if he had gotten help and/or never met Eric (or, as bad as it is to say, kill himself without hurting anyone else). Also, there were very few indicators with Dylan that anything was wrong. For the most part he was acting normal, hanging with friends, had plans for the future, etc. Eric, on the other hand, is considered a psychopath and the only "what if" for him is, "What is columbine never happened," he would have probably kept on committing some other crimes until he landed in prison or dead. There were also HUGE red flags with Eric, that his parents just brushed off. So what are his parents suppose to say? "Sorry, our son was very obviously seriously disturbed, we ignored all the warning signs, and were generally bad at this whole parenting thing." That's all they can say. There is really no sympathy from that."


I agree with that comment. To be completely honest, I still think Sue is in denial about Dylan, she can say she isn't but I just don't believe it.
Also, call me a cynic but I don't know how much I buy into the "I want to help other depressed teens" spiel. I do think Sue has come forward to clear HER own name, to show her as the caring, empathetic parent. She threw a lot of shade at Eric in her book, and in turn the Harris family under the bus as far as I'm concerned.

I'm not blaming the Klebold or Harris family for what happened, I just question the sincerity of Sue's actions (see my above post.)

I agreeee so much with your comments, i do not feel she is really sorry for what happened. IMO she probably has some traits that dylan had i mean she was his mother.

Great point MSinderstood, I didn't even think of that actually, I haven't seen it discussed much!  
I wonder how much they shared personality wise.

I was flicking through the book again and she mentions how she was secretly pleased Eric didn't know what he wanted to do with his life after the Marines fell through…wtf? …hmm..


She won't even admit that Eric was Dylan's best friend when they died.She claims Nate Dykeman was.

She did go on to admit that it was a petty thought that she had, as a mother, to feel relieved that at least Dylan wasn't having that level of difficulty, and makes it clear that she is ashamed for having thought that. I can understand that knee-jerk reaction; I don't think that there is a parent alive who has never once felt competitive on behalf of themselves or their child.

I personally feel that she seems to be very sorry and mortified in regards to what happened, and is dealing with it as best as anyone could. I've lost loved ones to suicide, including a person extremely close to me who was a very abusive and cruel person when his mental illness was out of control. The mother of that person is well over 80 years old, and refuses to admit that her son ever did anything wrong to anyone, and not one mother of the people I mention has managed to get on with life, let alone trying to make a difference in the world. It's very hard for me to talk about the person at times, because it is so hard to present or think of him as both someone I loved dearly, and also someone who hurt me and others very much. People have a hard time understanding how I can still love him, without condoning what he did. I cannot even imagine the courage it takes to stand up and speak about it after that kind of crime, when so many people think that your child should burn in hell, and wouldn't mind if you joined him.

I personally felt that the book was written very well, with Sue choosing to focus more on an area where she has a bit of power to help. She didn't speak very much at all about Eric, and has stated that she felt unable to do so because she didn't know him well enough, and didn't want to step on any toes where his family is concerned. She was about as civil as any parent could be, IMO. She has also admitted that she has panic attacks, and has had them as far back as childhood, and that this is an area of mental health that she will always need to address. People have been demanding answers from the parents from the beginning, and I think that she has tried her best. She never condones her son's actions, and readily admits that what she saw, after his death, was some horribly cruel person who she never knew existed. I have no idea how I could ever deal with that. Given the circumstances, I think that she made an admirable effort to tell the story from her perspective, to give us details that we didn't know or that hadn't been clear, and to give parents and others a serious look at mental health issues.
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PostSubject: Re: A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses   A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses Icon_minitimeThu Jun 30, 2016 10:51 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
mSinderstood wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:

I was having a discussion about this on Youtube with a few people I'd like to share one of their comments (I wonder if they post here?)

"What are Eric's parents suppose to say? They will NEVER speak out. Sue Klebold can speak out, because as far as police/sociologists/psychologists are concerned, Dylan's involvement stemmed from depressed/self-loathing/etc. There are a lot of "what-ifs" with him. "What if someone found out," "What if he got help," "What if he never met Eric,".....as far as Dylan is concerned, he may have ended up a normal, healthy person if he had gotten help and/or never met Eric (or, as bad as it is to say, kill himself without hurting anyone else). Also, there were very few indicators with Dylan that anything was wrong. For the most part he was acting normal, hanging with friends, had plans for the future, etc. Eric, on the other hand, is considered a psychopath and the only "what if" for him is, "What is columbine never happened," he would have probably kept on committing some other crimes until he landed in prison or dead. There were also HUGE red flags with Eric, that his parents just brushed off. So what are his parents suppose to say? "Sorry, our son was very obviously seriously disturbed, we ignored all the warning signs, and were generally bad at this whole parenting thing." That's all they can say. There is really no sympathy from that."


I agree with that comment. To be completely honest, I still think Sue is in denial about Dylan, she can say she isn't but I just don't believe it.
Also, call me a cynic but I don't know how much I buy into the "I want to help other depressed teens" spiel. I do think Sue has come forward to clear HER own name, to show her as the caring, empathetic parent. She threw a lot of shade at Eric in her book, and in turn the Harris family under the bus as far as I'm concerned.

I'm not blaming the Klebold or Harris family for what happened, I just question the sincerity of Sue's actions (see my above post.)

I agreeee so much with your comments, i do not feel she is really sorry for what happened. IMO she probably has some traits that dylan had i mean she was his mother.

Great point MSinderstood, I didn't even think of that actually, I haven't seen it discussed much!  
I wonder how much they shared personality wise.

I was flicking through the book again and she mentions how she was secretly pleased Eric didn't know what he wanted to do with his life after the Marines fell through…wtf? …hmm..


She won't even admit that Eric was Dylan's best friend when they died.She claims Nate Dykeman was.

She did go on to admit that it was a petty thought that she had, as a mother, to feel relieved that at least Dylan wasn't having that level of difficulty, and makes it clear that she is ashamed for having thought that.  I can understand that knee-jerk reaction; I don't think that there is a parent alive who has never once felt competitive on behalf of themselves or their child.

I personally feel that she seems to be very sorry and mortified in regards to what happened, and is dealing with it as best as anyone could.  I've lost loved ones to suicide, including a person extremely close to me who was a very abusive and cruel person when his mental illness was out of control.  The mother of that person is well over 80 years old, and refuses to admit that her son ever did anything wrong to anyone, and not one mother of the people I mention has managed to get on with life, let alone trying to make a difference in the world.  It's very hard for me to talk about the person at times, because it is so hard to present or think of him as both someone I loved dearly, and also someone who hurt me and others very much.  People have a hard time understanding how I can still love him, without condoning what he did.  I cannot even imagine the courage it takes to stand up and speak about it after that kind of crime, when so many people think that your child should burn in hell, and wouldn't mind if you joined him.

I personally felt that the book was written very well, with Sue choosing to focus more on an area where she has a bit of power to help.  She didn't speak very much at all about Eric, and has stated that she felt unable to do so because she didn't know him well enough, and didn't want to step on any toes where his family is concerned.  She was about as civil as any parent could be, IMO.  She has also admitted that she has panic attacks, and has had them as far back as childhood, and that this is an area of mental health that she will always need to address.  People have been demanding answers from the parents from the beginning, and I think that she has tried her best.  She never condones her son's actions, and readily admits that what she saw, after his death, was some horribly cruel person who she never knew existed.  I have no idea how I could ever deal with that.  Given the circumstances, I think that she made an admirable effort to tell the story from her perspective, to give us details that we didn't know or that hadn't been clear, and to give parents and others a serious look at mental health issues.  


Sue had plenty to say about Eric.She labels him a psychopath,makes him look as bad as she possibly can and subtly but definitely puts the majority of the blame on his shoulders more than once.
She heavily implies that if it weren't for Eric this never would have happened at all and Eric preyed on her vulnerable, depressed kid.

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We're all going to die, all of us, what a circus; That alone should make us love each other but it doesn't. We are terrorized and flattened by trivialities, we are eaten up by nothing.-Charles Bukowski


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PostSubject: Re: A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses   A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses Icon_minitimeThu Jun 30, 2016 11:32 pm

^ gotta agree with [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] here. she says she's not doing that but then immediately after says shit that hints to that in a subtle way as if to get away with it. i mean, don't get me wrong...i understand it was her son, ya know? but it doesn't mean its not there and the double speak isn't there. its like when someone gives you a "compliment" thats sounds like an insult. its passive aggressive. not to mention she thanks Dave Cullen in the back of her book...ahem.

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PostSubject: Re: A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses   A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses Icon_minitimeFri Jul 01, 2016 1:26 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
^ gotta agree with [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] here. she says she's not doing that but then immediately after says shit that hints to that in a subtle way as if to get away with it. i mean, don't get me wrong...i understand it was her son, ya know? but it doesn't mean its not there and the double speak isn't there. its like when someone gives you a "compliment" thats sounds like an insult. its passive aggressive. not to mention she thanks Dave Cullen in the back of her book...ahem.


It's no wonder she would put stock into Cullen.He gave the most sympathetic portrayal of Dylan that it is possible to give under the circumstances.He basically said exactly what Sue needed to believe to try to go on living.
I think the majority of people will never feel any sympathy for E &D but  of the ones who feel sympathy for  Dylan and not for Eric mainly come to that view because of Cullen's book and his relentless pushing of his theories as absolute truth in every kind of communication mode possible. If I were Eric's parents I would feel so hurt, betrayed ,angry and resentful about this book but maybe they don't.Who knows?

I know Eric was a murderer but I still feel so terrible for him.
He was an angry ,troubled kid who needed help and died at barely 18 years old.
Now that he's been gone so long, he is a convenient scapegoat for a number of people:Sue,Maybe Tom, Cullen, Dwayne Fusilier, anyone who believes in Cullen's theories.It's so sad.Just another tragic aspect of the aftermath.

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PostSubject: Re: A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses   A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses Icon_minitimeFri Jul 01, 2016 2:05 am

I won't deny that Sue has likely grasped straws, proffered by Cullen, mostly, to make her situation more livable. While I certainly don't think it would have hurt to say more things about Eric that were kind, or at least neutral, I admire the restraint that she did show when it came to him and his family. I read it more as tactful, rather than passive aggressive; she obviously has strong feelings about things, but understands that to be taken seriously, she can't go all out and bash Eric for corrupting her sweet little angel. I honestly cannot imagine the kind of strength and courage it takes to write such a book, knowing the horrible backlash you will face among the positive reactions, because nothing will ever make it right or be enough.

I was surprised that she wrote as openly as she did, about Dylan's part in the massacre, and with none of the self-pity that I hear from the families that I know. I lost my father to suicide; he was horribly abusive to my mother in every possible way, and abusive to us kids in different ways (my oldest brother, as his stepson, got the physical abuse along with the mental abuse, I got the main bulk of the mental abuse, and another sibling was more of a silent witness to all of it). It was well-documented and witnessed, as was his mental illness and alcohol abuse. When he was in a healthy frame of mind, he was wonderful - you couldn't imagine such cruelty. His mother never admits to any of it, and places the blame entirely on my mother and whoever else was in his life at any given time. As someone who is more vocal about ALL of it, I've incurred a lot of anger from my family. I cannot begin to imagine my grandmother being composed enough to write about it, let alone show any personal responsibility or remorse for anything that she may have done or overlooked in his life. I share this because I realize that of course, it alters my perspective - I don't feel that I'm wrong, but I can understand someone thinking that I'm far too sympathetic to Sue for someone who is just a random person interested in Columbine. It has been more than 20 years since I lost my father, and I am still facing unpleasant facts and memories.

I would love to hear from the Harris family, but I don't think it will ever happen. My personal opinion - just my opinion based on my own experience, nothing more - is that Eric is not to be spoken of in that home, at least not openly. I feel like he is likely a black mark on the family tree, a shameful incident in a proud military family, and to speak of him would feel like a reminder of a personal failure and weakness. The way his father kept a logbook on him reminds me of keeping records on part of the job as a marine or other military personnel, like he felt very responsible for his son's behavior, which was something that needed to be controlled and kept in check like a problematic pet. As though it were something that he should and could control. Eric seemed very wistful, briefly, when he wrote of how they might have bonded at the gun show. I think that's why it's just easier to accept the psychopath diagnosis, and slip under the radar. We'll never know, likely, but that's just my theory.
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PostSubject: Re: A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses   A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses Icon_minitimeFri Jul 01, 2016 2:55 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:

I would love to hear from the Harris family, but I don't think it will ever happen. My personal opinion - just my opinion based on my own experience, nothing more - is that Eric is not to be spoken of in that home, at least not openly. I feel like he is likely a black mark on the family tree, a shameful incident in a proud military family, and to speak of him would feel like a reminder of a personal failure and weakness. The way his father kept a logbook on him reminds me of keeping records on part of the job as a marine or other military personnel, like he felt very responsible for his son's behavior, which was something that needed to be controlled and kept in check like a problematic pet. As though it were something that he should and could control. Eric seemed very wistful, briefly, when he wrote of how they might have bonded at the gun show. I think that's why it's just easier to accept the psychopath diagnosis, and slip under the radar. We'll never know, likely, but that's just my theory.

Fantastically put!

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PostSubject: Re: A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses   A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses Icon_minitimeFri Jul 01, 2016 3:04 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] i agree. that was very well put.

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PostSubject: Re: A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses   A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses Icon_minitimeFri Jul 01, 2016 3:25 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
I won't deny that Sue has likely grasped straws, proffered by Cullen, mostly, to make her situation more livable. While I certainly don't think it would have hurt to say more things about Eric that were kind, or at least neutral, I admire the restraint that she did show when it came to him and his family. I read it more as tactful, rather than passive aggressive; she obviously has strong feelings about things, but understands that to be taken seriously, she can't go all out and bash Eric for corrupting her sweet little angel. I honestly cannot imagine the kind of strength and courage it takes to write such a book, knowing the horrible backlash you will face among the positive reactions, because nothing will ever make it right or be enough.

I was surprised that she wrote as openly as she did, about Dylan's part in the massacre, and with none of the self-pity that I hear from the families that I know. I lost my father to suicide; he was horribly abusive to my mother in every possible way, and abusive to us kids in different ways (my oldest brother, as his stepson, got the physical abuse along with the mental abuse, I got the main bulk of the mental abuse, and another sibling was more of a silent witness to all of it). It was well-documented and witnessed, as was his mental illness and alcohol abuse. When he was in a healthy frame of mind, he was wonderful - you couldn't imagine such cruelty. His mother never admits to any of it, and places the blame entirely on my mother and whoever else was in his life at any given time. As someone who is more vocal about ALL of it, I've incurred a lot of anger from my family. I cannot begin to imagine my grandmother being composed enough to write about it, let alone show any personal responsibility or remorse for anything that she may have done or overlooked in his life. I share this because I realize that of course, it alters my perspective - I don't feel that I'm wrong, but I can understand someone thinking that I'm far too sympathetic to Sue for someone who is just a random person interested in Columbine. It has been more than 20 years since I lost my father, and I am still facing unpleasant facts and memories.

I would love to hear from the Harris family, but I don't think it will ever happen. My personal opinion - just my opinion based on my own experience, nothing more - is that Eric is not to be spoken of in that home, at least not openly. I feel like he is likely a black mark on the family tree, a shameful incident in a proud military family, and to speak of him would feel like a reminder of a personal failure and weakness. The way his father kept a logbook on him reminds me of keeping records on part of the job as a marine or other military personnel, like he felt very responsible for his son's behavior, which was something that needed to be controlled and kept in check like a problematic pet. As though it were something that he should and could control. Eric seemed very wistful, briefly, when he wrote of how they might have bonded at the gun show. I think that's why it's just easier to accept the psychopath diagnosis, and slip under the radar. We'll never know, likely, but that's just my theory.



I'm sorry about what you went through with your Father. Very tough.


You and I have very different definitions of "restraint." She kept hammering him as a psychopath, and put most of the blame of his shoulders.The impression was deeply given that Eric who as a psychopath had no real remorse or feelings, preyed on a confused, vulnerable kid who did and bang, you have your shooting.
Just because she didn't come out and say "Let me tell you all about that evil little SOB" like she might have liked to do doesn't mean that she didn't demonize and blame him.
She did.Sue is a bright woman.She knew that nobody would listen if she was openly virulent towards Eric so she demonized and blame him on a more subtle, deeper level and its a very effective tactic.

I think that Sue sincerely wants to help others and warn parents and that's a reason for her writing the book but as someone here astutely pointed out (can't remember exactly who right now. Sorry!!!),this is Sue's one big chance to get a more sympathetic,loving portrait of Dylan out there and a portrait of herself as a loving, involved,decent , grieving Mother.That must be very important to her since she was judged by so many as a terrible parent.
Now is the ideal time to speak out as Sue is 67 yrs old and knows she will likely die within the next 15-20 years.I'm sure she wants to get her version of things firmly established in the public's mind while she is still here to promote the book, do interviews, perform her mental health volunteer work.I can totally understand that.
I also don't blame her for believing whatever she wants to believe but I do have a problem with her putting out a book that only adds more distortion and confusion to this story and who E &D were because she is still largely in denial.
That is what I cannot condone or agree with.I am forever sympathetic to her pain and loss but that's what I believe,


You aren't the first person to think that Eric's parents just wrote him off like he never existed and went on with life but I can't believe that's true.
I think people believe that because they haven't spoken out but he was their child.They raised him for 18 years.
I can't believe they don't love him and miss him.
I must point out once again that we have no proof his parents think he was a psychopath.All we have is the Mausers' statement that they SEEMED to.That could leave a lot up to interpretation.Maybe they didn't feel comfortable telling the Mausers' they didn't believe that considering they were there with the people whose son was killed by their son.



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PostSubject: Re: A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses   A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses Icon_minitimeFri Jul 01, 2016 1:46 pm

I don't deny the probability that Eric's parents love and miss him, or even that they truly believe that he was a psychopath. The rest, I do personally feel is a very strong possibility.

In regards to Sue, I do believe that she did the best that she could with the book. No matter what she wrote or how she wrote it, people would be having issues with it, which is rough - I have to think that I would probably take the approach that she has, attempting to be tactful and diplomatic, but unable to really tell her side without some of the hurt coming through. That's just my POV as a mother - when something horrible happens, we all have the need to blame someone. I blamed certain people for a very long time, in regards to my father's suicide, and I have had a hard time forgiving and letting go of blame when it comes to my mother's early passing, although I DO try, and keep quiet. I can only imagine how strong that urge is when the person involved is your child.

The book is not perfect, but I do believe that it is from the heart and genuine. I think that I would very probably take the chance to portray my loved one as someone other than just the horrible, vile creature that people have said he is - I can't even imagine, living for so long, hearing those things, and being unable to defend the child that you're not even supposed to be mourning, according to society. I am HUGELY appreciative of her attention to mental health - I gave a copy to my son for his 19th birthday when he asked, and I was apprehensive, but looking at the mental health information alone (of course, I did read the rest) made me glad that he'd asked for it out of any of the other Columbine books.
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PostSubject: Re: A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses   A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses Icon_minitimeFri Jul 01, 2016 10:39 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
I don't deny the probability that Eric's parents love and miss him, or even that they truly believe that he was a psychopath. The rest, I do personally feel is a very strong possibility.

In regards to Sue, I do believe that she did the best that she could with the book.  No matter what she wrote or how she wrote it, people would be having issues with it, which is rough - I have to think that I would probably take the approach that she has, attempting to be tactful and diplomatic, but unable to really tell her side without some of the hurt coming through.  That's just my POV as a mother - when something horrible happens, we all have the need to blame someone.  I blamed certain people for a very long time, in regards to my father's suicide, and I have had a hard time forgiving and letting go of blame when it comes to my mother's early passing, although I DO try, and keep quiet. I can only imagine how strong that urge is when the person involved is your child.  

The book is not perfect, but I do believe that it is from the heart and genuine.  I think that I would very probably take the chance to portray my loved one as someone other than just the horrible, vile creature that people have said he is - I can't even imagine, living for so long, hearing those things, and being unable to defend the child that you're not even supposed to be mourning, according to society.  I am HUGELY appreciative of her attention to mental health - I gave a copy to my son for his 19th birthday when he asked, and I was apprehensive, but looking at the mental health information alone (of course, I did read the rest) made me glad that he'd asked for it out of any of the other Columbine books.


I appreciate you taking the time to share your thoughts and feelings regarding the book.Our beliefs and perceptions about the book are just different.

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PostSubject: Re: A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses   A Mothers Reckoning Book Responses Icon_minitimeThu Jul 07, 2016 3:26 am

Likewise, [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] - we all have different personalities, at the very least. When you throw in things like life experience (not as in, you or I having a harder or better life than the other, just diversity in general), personal beliefs, and just the different approach that we all have in regards to studying and learning about the book and all things Columbine, well, you're going to have MANY opinions on the book, some wildly different. I feel that these are all valid, and I really appreciate finding out what other people think. A different perspective never hurts - even if my opinion stays the same, I think that it's to my benefit to learn of other opinions, and especially WHY those opinions are as such.

I really appreciate finding this place, and all of you, to discuss this with; I'm socially awkward at best, IRL, and somehow, I don't think that asking if someone has read the book or any related materials would go over very well, when trying to make small talk with other moms at the park. Haha
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