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 Eric and Dylan vs. "the freshmen"

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PostSubject: Eric and Dylan vs. "the freshmen"   Eric and Dylan vs. "the freshmen" Icon_minitimeMon Feb 15, 2016 4:56 pm

Hoffschneider and his gang were a year older than Eric and Dylan ... I'm not sure who these "freshmen" were. But Dylan wanted to fight them.

From Susan Klebold's book:

In early January of 1998, Dylan told Tom about his frustration with a couple of kids at school who were “really asking for it.” The kids were freshmen, and Tom resisted the temptation to laugh: Dylan was six feet four inches tall, and a junior. Dylan told us he wanted to get some guys together to confront the boys. Tom and I told him not to give them the satisfaction of a response. I was worried someone would be hurt, and Tom was worried Dylan would embarrass himself by engaging with freshmen.

Dylan could not let it go. Without our knowledge, he and Eric rounded up some friends. They confronted the kids and told them to meet them at a spot away from school, but the younger boys never appeared. Tom and I found out about the planned rumble after the fact. Dylan believed he had handled the situation effectively, but we were upset and told him so. At least, I thought, no one had been hurt.

[...]

Not long after the call from Judy, Tom got another call from the school. Four months after his suspension for hacking the locker combinations, Dylan had deliberately scratched the face of someone’s locker with a key. He was given an in-school suspension for a day and owed the school seventy dollars to pay for a new door. Tom went over to write the check. He asked the dean about the freshmen, certain that Dylan would not have lashed out without being provoked. The dean acknowledged they had a particularly “rowdy” group of freshmen, acting as if they “owned the place,” but assured Tom that the administration was dealing with it.

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PostSubject: Re: Eric and Dylan vs. "the freshmen"   Eric and Dylan vs. "the freshmen" Icon_minitimeMon Feb 15, 2016 6:20 pm

That's interesting. They were pretty bold to be picking on/mouthing off to kids who were 2 years older.

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PostSubject: Re: Eric and Dylan vs. "the freshmen"   Eric and Dylan vs. "the freshmen" Icon_minitimeMon Feb 15, 2016 6:36 pm

Okay I must scream now and make angry noises about the misuse of pacifism.

HIS SILENCE IS THEIR SATISFACTION!  IF YOU'RE SO WORRIED THAT SOMEONE WILL BE HURT WHY DO YOU NOT WORRY ABOUT THE POSSIBILITY OF DYLAN OR HIS FRIEND BEING HURT BY NOT STANDING UP FOR THEMSELVES!  THE ADMINISTRATION CANNOT ALWAYS BE THERE, BESIDES, THE ADMINISTRATION DOESN'T HAVE SUCH A STELLAR TRACK RECORD OF DOING THEIR JOB ANYWAY!

THIS IS LITERALLY WHAT DYLAN RANTED ABOUT IN THE BASEMENT TAPES, OF NOT BEING ABLE TO FIGHT BACK AND BEING PUNISHED BY THE ADMINISTRATION FOR DOING SO!

Argh argh argh--no I am not angry at Tom or Sue, they have every right to be against violence, and they believe what they believe...there's not much they could have said to change the institution that was already in place anyway.  Dylan's life at school was a complicated one, and issues of the necessity of violence are a thorny topic to experience or to speak about.
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PostSubject: Re: Eric and Dylan vs. "the freshmen"   Eric and Dylan vs. "the freshmen" Icon_minitimeMon Feb 15, 2016 8:12 pm

Why do I have a feeling those boys were Brandon Larson, and Dan Lab?
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PostSubject: Re: Eric and Dylan vs. "the freshmen"   Eric and Dylan vs. "the freshmen" Icon_minitimeThu Feb 25, 2016 11:28 pm

This whole passage in her book really calls into question the Eric and Dylan were bullied thing.

If this was their biggest conflict then they were not being bullied by older kids.
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PostSubject: Re: Eric and Dylan vs. "the freshmen"   Eric and Dylan vs. "the freshmen" Icon_minitimeFri Feb 26, 2016 3:25 pm

lasttrain wrote:
This whole passage in her book really calls into question the Eric and Dylan were bullied thing.

If this was their biggest conflict then they were not being bullied by older kids.

Once, during sophomore year, Dylan said something to Tom about “hating the jocks.” Tom asked him if they were giving him a hard time, and Dylan answered with confidence: “They don’t bother me. I’m six four. But they sure give Eric hell.”

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PostSubject: Re: Eric and Dylan vs. "the freshmen"   Eric and Dylan vs. "the freshmen" Icon_minitimeFri Feb 26, 2016 4:01 pm

I get the feeling that Columbine was a lot like my high school. The jocks ruled the school and got away with everything. Maybe Eric and Dylan didn't experience constant bullying, but there were certainly isolated incidents that were humiliating to them. At my school, if you weren't one of the jocks or rich popular kids, then you knew to keep a low profile so you wouldn't become a target. This is actually in itself a form of bullying. I imagine that's how it was at Columbine.
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PostSubject: Re: Eric and Dylan vs. "the freshmen"   Eric and Dylan vs. "the freshmen" Icon_minitimeSun Feb 28, 2016 9:06 pm

Thats the thing. Eric and Dylan probably wouldn't of gotten bullied as much if they didn't choose to stand out and be different. Wearing trench coats and Gothic like attire is just asking for it. I'm not saying they'd never get bothered but if they wernt as flamboyant with their style I'd guess it wouldnt be as much.
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PostSubject: Re: Eric and Dylan vs. "the freshmen"   Eric and Dylan vs. "the freshmen" Icon_minitimeMon Feb 29, 2016 8:52 am

slippy123 wrote:
just asking for it

I think that's a very narrow way of viewing this subject. Highschool or not , you shouldn't have to live in fear of physical or verbal abuse just because you like to dress different. I'll never understand that mindset. Now if someone starts displaying ridiculous behavior like inappropriate sexual things (ex : when the stundets described some TCM guys touching themselves in public) then yeah , you are deliberately asking to be put in your place.
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PostSubject: Re: Eric and Dylan vs. "the freshmen"   Eric and Dylan vs. "the freshmen" Icon_minitimeMon Feb 29, 2016 2:41 pm

lasttrain wrote:
This whole passage in her book really calls into question the Eric and Dylan were bullied thing.

If this was their biggest conflict then they were not being bullied by older kids.


IMO no doubt they were bullied, along with a lot of the school. The ketchup incident, the bottles thrown @ them where Dylan said "happens all the time, no big deal anymore" etc..

Up & down the CHS "food chain" @ CHS there was bullying.. & it's documented that E/D had bullied kids themselves. The emergence of the TCM itself was due to the bullying going on @ CHS. Most if not all HS's in America are riddled with this dilemma & CHS seems to be a worst case scenario. As reported here on this forum.. even some of the jocks couldn't stand the out of control alpha male BS.

Living in this area, but just recently.. rare to hear anyone speak of 4/20 or the surrounding events. Seems as those people were sick of it (understandably) & wanted to move on. Having said that, the little I have heard acknowledges how bad the culture was among the A list kids & others & down the line.
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PostSubject: Re: Eric and Dylan vs. "the freshmen"   Eric and Dylan vs. "the freshmen" Icon_minitimeMon Feb 29, 2016 3:00 pm

Yeah, I get the feeling that at Columbine, bullying was pervasive. There were probably a few stand-out incidents that people can remember and name now, but this can't encompass the whole system that existed. It was probably shitty for the guys on the lower rungs of the social scale, every single day. Walking through the halls and knowing that there's this group of people in charge who can do or say pretty much anything to you and can attack your masculinity and ego whenever they have nothing better to do but if you fight back, you're the one likely to get in trouble. They could humiliate and intimidate people on a daily basis as long as they weren't too loud or obvious about it for any of the teachers to have to fill out a disciplinary report or something. And Eric and Dylan seemed to despise the system where they were made to feel like nothing but they also turned around and did the same kind of things to people of even lower status than themselves. Maybe it was the only way they knew how to feel powerful, but they still played into the system that they claimed to hate.
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PostSubject: Re: Eric and Dylan vs. "the freshmen"   Eric and Dylan vs. "the freshmen" Icon_minitimeMon Feb 29, 2016 3:06 pm

slippy123 wrote:
Thats the thing. Eric and Dylan probably wouldn't of gotten bullied as much if they didn't choose to stand out and be different. Wearing trench coats and Gothic like attire is just asking for it. I'm not saying they'd never get bothered but if they wernt as flamboyant with their style I'd guess it wouldnt be as much.

the "under the radar" approach definitely helps, but @ the same time that's challenging for some personalities & level of intelligence. I know I'd rather take on ridicule than become a lemming to avoid the heat.
I'd never go as far as E/D, but in my HS the E/D crowd torched our baseball infield in retaliation to our coach who was way over the top with them. It effected me as we couldn't practice on the field for a bit & had to put in extra ground crew work to get it back.. but I thought it was hilarious & completely understood where they were coming from as the coach treated me with the same lack of respect.



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PostSubject: Re: Eric and Dylan vs. "the freshmen"   Eric and Dylan vs. "the freshmen" Icon_minitimeSat Jun 11, 2016 2:38 pm

There's also an account of the freshmen possibly messing around with Dylan's car and hence the boys started going to school earlier to be able to grab secure spots nearer to the school so they'd be able to monitor it, and also have lunch in their cars and watch people. Following that when it was coming to senior year, Dyl wrote in E's yearbook about being excited to put the new freshmen in their place and pick on 'em so as to make known dominance and of their senior status.
I agree that it had to suck as hell for 'em that those younger than them even found the boys easy and non-intimidating to mess around with. Now whose fault is that really? Were the new breeds pieces of shit by default or did Eric and Dylan just don't seem respectable enough?

"the "under the radar" approach definitely helps, but @ the same time that's challenging for some personalities & level of intelligence. I know I'd rather take on ridicule than become a lemming to avoid the heat." - I like this point! [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

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PostSubject: Re: Eric and Dylan vs. "the freshmen"   Eric and Dylan vs. "the freshmen" Icon_minitimeSun Aug 19, 2018 9:17 pm

I don't believe that Eric and Dylan were bullies, but if you wanted to explore that possibility, then this kind of anecdote would be your starting point.

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PostSubject: Re: Eric and Dylan vs. "the freshmen"   Eric and Dylan vs. "the freshmen" Icon_minitimeMon Aug 20, 2018 12:19 am

LPorter101 wrote:
I don't believe that Eric and Dylan were bullies, but if you wanted to explore that possibility, then this kind of anecdote would be your starting point.

I don’t believe they were bullies you there. I think I am more on the side of what Sue talks about I don’t believe they were bullies either. I think they were buly victims who try to stick up from themselves and ended up being seen as bullies which can happen a lot.

Are you start to not care anymore about how you treat people. Because it just doesn’t matter.

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PostSubject: Re: Eric and Dylan vs. "the freshmen"   Eric and Dylan vs. "the freshmen" Icon_minitimeMon Aug 20, 2018 7:28 am

There is a fair amount of evidence that suggests/proves Eric and Dylan were indeed bullied. Although the severity of said bullying has always been speculated on.

As I have said before the trickle down effect seemed to be at play in this situation. I believe E&D were bullies to anyone they could actually get away with bullying, as both mentioned picking on others.
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PostSubject: Re: Eric and Dylan vs. "the freshmen"   Eric and Dylan vs. "the freshmen" Icon_minitimeMon Aug 20, 2018 9:26 am

ShadowedGoddess wrote:
There is a fair amount of evidence that suggests/proves Eric and Dylan were indeed bullied. Although the severity of said bullying has always been speculated on.    

As I have said before the trickle down effect seemed to be at play in this situation. I believe E&D were bullies to anyone they could actually get away with bullying, as both mentioned picking on others.

I agree. And also the level of being bullied is subjective. What could be bad for one person isn’t so bad for another. So you have to look at the whole person when you’re looking at this case you have to look at all aspects of Eric and Dylan

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PostSubject: Re: Eric and Dylan vs. "the freshmen"   Eric and Dylan vs. "the freshmen" Icon_minitimeTue Aug 21, 2018 6:11 pm

Dylan actually bullied Adam Kyler to the point where his mother and the school had to intervene. That's pretty bad. I do, however, think that the bullying that Eric and Dylan did was in response to the bullying they went through. I don't have any facts to back this up but I can imagine it would give them a sense of taking control back. When I was a kid, I was horribly bullied. And, as ashamed as I still am of it, I would on occasion take this out on kids who were even lower on the totem pole than I was. It's a terrible thing to do but sometimes it happens.

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