Bombs in the cafeteria

Three questions:

1) Can someone explain to me the exact position of the bombs in the cafeteria? I'm trying to find Dylan or Eric bringing them in the cafeteria, looking at the video of the surveillance cameras. I know they say that because of the fact the video was being replaced, we can't see them. But it seems too much weird to me. I mean, do you really think it was a coincidence that it was replaced in the exact moment when they were entering? Maybe nobody noticed them carrying the bombs because of great number of students.

2) Do you think Eric and Dylan placed the bombs in determined points in order to damage the school as much as possible? I've noticed that they studied the planimetry of the school, especially the cafeteria and the library.

3) Did they conclude the bombs debate? I know that times ago there were some people saying that the bombs weren't enough powerful to destroy the cafeteria or the library and some saying that they wouldn't have even exploded, because of the way they were constructed. Others said that the bombs were high-powered and could have destroyed everything. Can someone, possibly someone who have studied chemistry or something similar, put and end to the issue with a complete answer?

First I want to applaud you for 1) and I have always suspected that Eric might be unidentified on the tape.  As you look, you might want to consult Brooks's description of what Eric was wearing and also possibly look just for Eric without Dylan because Eric may have brought them in alone.

For 3) Eric and Dylan used a BLEVE device, which means that the bombs would've exploded in two steps, the first a small explosion that would have ignited a flammable liquid attached to the propane tank, and the second a much larger explosion brought about by that fire heating the propane tank, as you can see here.  It takes about ninety seconds to blow up.

I am not sure why Eric and Dylan's didn't go off. But if the bombs had gone off, the students would have witnessed a fireball from the liquid igniting, not an explosion of the tank. And in fact, Dylan successfully detonates one at 1:10 here, so you can see what the students would've seen if the bombs had gone off--a fireball which quickly dwindles into a very small fire that is put out by sprinklers.  Not the huge catastrophe that everyone reports.

This is probably what the explosions would of looked like if they ignited when they shot at them from the commons trying to get them to blow.
Since the cafeteria wasn't that big of an area, or didn't' have a high ceiling, I'd say it would of caused one hell of a structure fire, depending how long it took them to put it out.

BUT, we can't forget about the water sprinklers, which would of calmed it down significantly. So I guess it's all speculation and always will be unfortunately, we will never really know.

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There was no chance the propane bombs were going to blow up the cafeteria.

Even if the bombs had gone off, that would have just meant that the flammable liquid surrounding the tank would have ignited and started to heat the tank. However, that liquid would have burned off or been extinguished by the sprinklers before the propane tank was compromised. Remember, Dylan actually did set off the bomb, but the fireball immediately fizzled--this is what would have happened if the timer had worked.

The students would have run out at the first fireball, they would not have died, and the cafeteria would not have collapsed.

elia wrote:

Three questions:

1) Can someone explain to me the exact position of the bombs in the cafeteria? I'm trying to find Dylan or Eric bringing them in the cafeteria, looking at the video of the surveillance cameras.

You can try to find that incident on the video until the end of time, but you won't find it.  The video was being changed then.  I can't remember if the person whose job it was to do this just rewound the same tape to the beginning and recorded on the same VHS tape again, or if the person put in a new tape, but it was one of those two scenarios.  

elia wrote:

/I know they say that because of the fact the video was being replaced, we can't see them.

Then why are you trying to find such footage on the surveillance cameras?  This has been in the public domain, accessible on the internet to millions, for years.  Don't you think word would have got out by now if the tapes actually show Eric and Dylan placing the bombs?

elia wrote:

But it seems too much weird to me. I mean, do you really think it was a coincidence that it was replaced in the exact moment when they were entering? Maybe nobody noticed them carrying the bombs because of great number of students.

Yes; I think it was a coincidence that it was replaced in the exact moment when they were entering.  Having to rewind and start over recording surveillance tapes was standard operating procedure in those days.  I'm sure people noticed them carrying in duffel bags into the cafeteria.  The reason nobody thought anything of it is that nobody knew that the duffel bags contained bombs.

i think that the reason that the bombs didn't go off is because they didn't wire them correctly. I truly think that the reason they didn't go off is because they were in a rush that morning to put them together and didn't actually test to see if they would have gone off. I think honestly had they not waited till that morning they would have gone off. That would have made this much more deadly. The thing I am finding more interesting is the fact that although they had talked about shooting people, they truly wanted to blow the school up

Awerry wrote:

i think that the reason that the bombs didn't go off is because they didn't wire them correctly.  I truly think that the reason they didn't go off is because they were in a rush that morning to put them together and didn't actually test to see if they would have gone off.  I think honestly had they not waited till that morning they would have gone off.  That would have made this much more deadly. The thing I am finding more interesting is the fact that although they had talked about shooting people, they truly wanted to blow the school up

But you understand that even if the bombs had gone off they would have just ignited a flammable liquid outside the propane tank, not the propane tank itself.

The propane tank would only blow up if the flammable liquid burned outside of it for several minutes, which could not have happened because there wasn't enough flammable liquid and the sprinklers would have come on.

So, you all are saying that the bombs would have never gone off, no matter if Eric and Dylan had succeeded in igniting them. Then, why did they choose this type of bombs? I mean, they weren't so stupid to don't know that it was an impossible mission, were they? It's all weird about this. They studied this plan for a long time and then they did such a thing?

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Not many people are so interested in this case like us. There is always something new that is discovered every day about the schooting. That's because people keep studying this and sometimes someone notices something nobody else has noticed before. So, probably I'm wasting my time but I want to try. You never know. Besides, isn't it strange that when Eric or Dylan or both of them brought in the bombs, placed them under the tables and just walked away without saying nothing, people, seeing them all in black with these two suspicious duffel bag, didn't say something like "ehm...what are you doing? what are these bags?" and just stayed there in the cafeteria, keeping on talking as if nothing happened?

Elia, that's not what I'm saying per say.. They didn't detonate on the timers because of faulty wiring... Also what I'm saying is that they were in such a rush to get them put together. Lasttrain I honestly think that had they assembled them properly, they would have had the desired effect. Bomb experts have said this

Awerry wrote:

Elia, that's not what I'm saying per say.. They didn't detonate on the timers because of faulty wiring... Also what I'm saying is that they were in such a rush to get them put together. Lasttrain I honestly think that had they assembled them properly, they would have had the desired effect. Bomb experts have said this

The FBI has never given an exact reason on where the bombs were faulty, all they said were that "they really had no idea how timers and wiring work".

What a confusion ...I made this topic to clarify once for all what happened, but I see that everybody thinks differently about this question and there are a lot of different sources brought up. So, are we supposed to accept the fact that there isn't an answer? However, I still think they weren't stupid and if they chose the propane bombs to destroy the school, there has to be a real motive.

Unfortunately [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] after all the years and tons of research done, somethings are not even close to being solved. This is one of those things. It sucks but it also continues to show just how stupidly Jeffco handled the entire investigation

Awerry wrote:

Unfortunately [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] after all the years and tons of research done, somethings are not even close to being solved. This is one of those things. It sucks but it also continues to show just how stupidly Jeffco handled the entire investigation

This is 100% the problem. JEFFCO should have handed off the incident to any of the local law enforcement agencies that were better trained and equipped to deal with it. Even while the shooting was still happening, the FBI was vocal in how upset they were regarding JEFFO retaining site command. Thanks to them, we now have a bunch more unanswered questions.

Also, don't rule out the possibility of finding something new in the existing footage. Just on this board, someone found the part in the cafeteria footage where John Savage is escaping after being let go by the killers. I think it's stickied in the documents and evidence board.

I'm glad to see the general opinion of the bomb's power starting to change. Those propane bombs would have never leveled the cafeteria, as the media has been saying. You can look up literally hundreds of YouTube videos of people blowing up propane tanks. None of them have toe power to level a commercial structure. There would be fire and injuries, but no catastrophic concussive force.

The source for that figure was actually just as weird as the whole Columbine case. Someone else here might have it, but his name escapes me now.

I was reading that they had planted the bond during the tape change but it never made sense that they started shooting before the timer's were set to go. From my understanding bind were set to explode between 11:17-11:20. I had read Brooks said that Eric drove up and told him to leave. So how could he had placed the bombs walked all the way to the car drove off came back talked to someone all within 4 mins?

jgood53 wrote:

I was reading that they had planted the bond during the tape change but it never made sense that they started shooting before the timer's were set to go. From my understanding bind were set to explode between 11:17-11:20. I had read Brooks said that Eric drove up and told him to leave. So how could he had placed the bombs walked all the way to the car drove off came back talked to someone all within 4 mins?

I've thought about this before as well. To me it seemed they went in just a minute or two after they had planned for the bombs to detonate. Why would they be so eager to rush in without waiting around a while to see if the bombs had a delayed reaction or something similar? It makes me wonder if part of them knew the bombs would never detonate / had a high probability of failure the whole time.

If the propane bombs wouldn't have worked, what would? And how would they have gotten their hands on it?

An OKC-style truck full of fertilizer and gasoline would not have worked for the inside of the cafeteria, due to the difficulty of parking a truck the middle of the cafeteria. Maybe dynamite to the support beams? Or if they were reinforced concrete (which they likely were,) something more powerful such as plastic explosive? The difficulty would be making enough batches of plastic explosive without blowing themselves up--and then they'd also need those ignition-wire blasting cap things because plastic explosive doesn't go boom with any old fire or spark--it was designed to be highly stable.

^I'm no expert on bombs but I'm assuming there are a lot of things that could have destroyed the cafeteria and possibly the library that could fit in duffel bags. The real question is, would E/D know where to get the supplies and actually build those types of devices.

Bombs aren't easy to make, especially ones that do a significant amount of damage.

jgood53 wrote:

I was reading that they had planted the bond during the tape change but it never made sense that they started shooting before the timer's were set to go. From my understanding bind were set to explode between 11:17-11:20. I had read Brooks said that Eric drove up and told him to leave. So how could he had placed the bombs walked all the way to the car drove off came back talked to someone all within 4 mins?

The timer's were set to go off at 11:17 AM. They waited until 11:19 to start shooting. They set the bombs sometime between 11:14 (when the tape stops) and 11:17 (when they were set to explode). It's my understanding that on his walk back to the car (or once he was actually back to the car) to wait for the bombs to explode is when Eric ran into Brooks. He told him to go home. That was sometime between 11:14 - 11:19 AM. And at 11:19 is when they started shooting. They waited 2 minutes and then realized their bombs were probably not going to detonate.

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Ok, it seems to have sense, but why did they wait just two minutes? That's the point. I mean, they could have waited just a little more. I agree with human_abstract. Maybe they didn't want the bombs to explode or they knew they would have never exploded. It could seem weird, but it has sense if we think that at the end of the day they didn't kill as many people as possible. What if they just wanted to shock us, making us think they wanted to destroy and kill everyone? Looking at their diaries, their videos and now this, to me it seems like they just pretended all the time to seem badass. But they really had the ability (they were two smart kids), the time (an year to prepare the plan and almost an hour to make it happen) and the weapons to kill a lot of people and they ended to kill """just""" 13 people. It's obvious the only thing they were targeting was just to shock like in a movie style.

I think that E/D probably had very little faith in the bombs come the day of the shooting. That's why they fudged the timers. Early on, they might have been optimistic, but then fell back to a more realistic plan on using the guns as their primary weapons.

Also, they wasn't really a lot stopping them from making a fertilizer bomb. They were a couple of years before 9/11 so online monitoring wouldn't have picked up on their purchases.

Lastly, had they made fertilizer bombs that could fit in a couple of duffel bags, they would have destroyed the cafeteria, and probably a good chunk of the library as well. The sheer concussive force of the blast would have killed most of the kids in the cafeteria instantly. Thankfully, they just went with the propane tanks.

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Kinda relevant.

radaddio wrote:

I think that E/D probably had very little faith in the bombs come the day of the shooting. That's why they fudged the timers. Early on, they might have been optimistic, but then fell back to a more realistic plan on using the guns as their primary weapons.

Also, they wasn't really a lot stopping them from making a fertilizer bomb. They were a couple of years before 9/11 so online monitoring wouldn't have picked up on their purchases.

Lastly, had they made fertilizer bombs that could fit in a couple of duffel bags, they would have destroyed the cafeteria, and probably a good chunk of the library as well. The sheer concussive force of the blast would have killed most of the kids in the cafeteria instantly. Thankfully, they just went with the propane tanks.

OK but...how do you make a fertilizer bomb that fits in a duffel bag?

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This is the configuration of the Times Square bomb they found five years ago. Even though the guy put a bunch of minimally useful gas cans and propane tanks in there, the experts agreed that the fertilizer bomb would have done significant damage, creating a fireball and shrapnel that would have killed civilians and broken windows.

Now, that fertilizer bomb was built inside of a heavy, metal gun locker. If you broke that up into two sealed metal containers you would have two bombs that weighted about as much as the two propane bombs that were found at Columbine. Only this bomb could actually be detonated in a manner similar to what they were trying to do with the propane bombs.

The terrorist used the wrong type of fertilizer to do a lot of damage, and it was determined that he wasn't all that great at making bombs, thankfully.

Had E/D used ammonium nitrate fertilizer in two separate 50 lb. devices, they would have wiped out a lot of people. The initial blast is what would have done most of the killing, and the sprinklers could have possibly been too damaged to function properly. But, that's just speculation.

....aaaand, now I'm on a government watch list : )

I believe 'LastTrain' is correct, and I never agree with him/or her about anything regarding Columbine

People don't understand how truly difficult it is to blow up a propane tank. This was a plan that was always going to fail no matter what. No one got lucky. It was just doomed to fail. They were so deluded into thinking their bombs would have done anything. They probably should've taken tips from McVeigh if they were going to do something that ridiculous.

Good riddance. Failures to the end.

I'm really glad that they didn't take more from the OKC bombing. Eric was especially fond of Timothy McVeigh, and the Anarchist's cookbook. He would've had ample opportunity to stumble across the recipe for ANFO.

Is there any evidence of them exploring the use of fertilizer bombs?

If the bombs had gone off the students would have run out of the cafeteria through both exits toward Eric and Dylan. They would not have been injured because the bomb would have just been a fireball that lit the gas around the tank. To see what this looks like watch Dylan in the video.

As the tank inside was quickly put out by sprinklers, Eric would have shot students and perhaps Dylan would have as well. However, around the same time Gardner would have been pulling up behind Eric, who might not have noticed him. It is quite possible Gardner drops Eric with a shot in the back right there. In fact, it is quite possible that, if the bombs had gone off, fewer people would have died, because a lit gas tank wouldn't kill anyone and Eric and Dylan would have been exposed in the parking lot as the small fire fizzled.

That would have been an ironic ending to the shooting. The bombs work, and they save more people than anything else.

If the bombs had been ANFO, which would have been a little bit more money, two 30 quart (7.5 gallon) pressure cookers would have taken up about the same amount of space as the two propane tanks in their separate duffel bags. While two such devices, optimistically triggered close together, might not collapse the building, they would still do a considerable amount of damage and kill a lot of people with the concussion of the blast. All of that with a trip to the hardware store and the gas station.

Off topic:
I've always wondered what Gardner's response would have been if Brooks had ran up to him and said something about Eric. I know that he was in a different location at the time the shooting started, but I've still been curious. According to Tim Kass's book, Eric and Dylan were already on Gardner's radar after being questioned by deputy Gutierrez the year prior.

I was also thinking about this: isn't it curious that the bomb they place in that field detonated and the bombs they placed in the cafeteria didn't? That's another point we could discuss.

There isn't to much info about the diversionary bombs that detonated. From memory, I recall the witness that tripped the bomb said there was a whirring noise that came form the device before it went off. That kind of indicated a different means of triggering the detonation. I don't think that they actually went off from the timer, but more from being disturbed by the witness.

I'm still maintaining that Eric probably had little faith in the bombs, and eventually saw them as an afterthought. That's why he decided to focus on the ammo and magazines they would need to shoot lots of kids. I'm sure there was a lot of course correction and improvisation right up to, and during, the shooting.

Boy, that's sure a lot of stuff for just two kids to put together, isn't it????

The only things that ignited/exploded in the cafeteria were pipe bombs and a can of gasoline.

One propane tank was at Table PP and another propane tank was at table RR

All 6 propane devices (2 cars, 2 backpacks at Diversion Site, 2 duffel bags in Cafeteria) that Eric/Dylan made was assembled with a propane bottle/tank, clock, pipe bomb, fireworks, and gas.

I personally do not believe that Eric/Dylan intended to BLEVE their devices. I believe that they intended to have an explosion. A ruptured propane tank caused from the pipe bomb explosion igniting with the gasoline/fireworks causing an explosion.

The clocks were set to trigger the spark that would ignite the fuse that would ignite the fireworks/pipe bomb causing an explosion that would rupture gasoline container/bottle/propane tank all at the same time to cause the big explosion.

My god, that's a lot of work to make all of that.

Thanks for posting the info.

sororityalpha wrote:

On the roof of the school:
1 pipe bomb, 1 incendiary device

I'm new to this. Do we have information on Dylan and Eric accessing the roof? When/how did they get explosive devices up there? Were they somehow tossed or is it known that they were placed on the roof?

And thanks for posting the index. Really gives you an idea of how much effort they put into this, even if their plans were ultimately (thankfully) unsuccessful.

Just to prove you that I wasn't a fool, trying to find them in the security cameras bringing in the bombs: here to you [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] . In this video you can clearly see them bringing the bombs in the cafeteria. Aparently they didn't stik to the plan, since we can see them enter the school at 10.58 (Eric) and 10.59 (Dylan), even if they wrote that they wanted to bring the bombs at 11.09

By the way, this is another demonstration of how accurate the police of jefferson county are.

elia wrote:

By the way, this is another demonstration of how accurate the police of jefferson county are.

You are correct. I have secondhand embarrassment for Jeffco. I wonder how they felt the day 60 Minutes outed them?

sscc wrote:

sororityalpha wrote:

On the roof of the school:
1 pipe bomb, 1 incendiary device

I'm new to this. Do we have information on Dylan and Eric accessing the roof? When/how did they get explosive devices up there? Were they somehow tossed or is it known that they were placed on the roof?

And thanks for posting the index. Really gives you an idea of how much effort they put into this, even if their plans were ultimately (thankfully) unsuccessful.

These devices were thrown up onto the roof from the ground below early in the attack while Eric/Dylan were outside by the corner of the stairs