JonBenet Ramsey

Hi, anyone here on the Columbine forum also into researching/theorizing on the JonBenet Ramsey death? I just recently got hooked by it and I'm preparing to start a thread in the "Thoughts on the Shootings" section on similarities in the two cases re: family wealth and police ineptitude.

I have looked into it quite a bit. I don't know as much about it as Columbine but I do find it interesting. I would be interested to hear anything from Burke.

Lizpuff wrote:

I have looked into it quite a bit.  I don't know as much about it as Columbine but I do find it interesting.  I would be interested to hear anything from Burke.

I think we would have to wait until John Ramsey (age 72) dies, and even then, I seriously doubt it. All my recent research leads to me to believe (in VERY simplified form) that Burke hit JonBenet on the head with a flashlight during an argument of some sort, rendering her unconscious and what he thought was "dead," that Patsy heard noise and found them in the basement, and from there the elaborate staging of an "intruder" and the unending web of lies began.

So, in a way, no one actually "murdered" JonBenet, it was a stupid childish accident that got out of control. Can't believe it's going on 20 years this Christmas.

ThoughtBox wrote:

Lizpuff wrote:

I have looked into it quite a bit.  I don't know as much about it as Columbine but I do find it interesting.  I would be interested to hear anything from Burke.

I think we would have to wait until John Ramsey (age 72) dies, and even then, I seriously doubt it. All my recent research leads to me to believe (in VERY simplified form) that Burke hit JonBenet on the head with a flashlight during an argument of some sort, rendering her unconscious and what he thought was "dead," that Patsy heard noise and found them in the basement, and from there the elaborate staging of an "intruder" and the unending web of lies began.

So, in a way, no one actually "murdered" JonBenet, it was a stupid childish accident that got out of control. Can't believe it's going on 20 years this Christmas.

The whole thing makes me ill. That poor girl. The mother denying the underwear she was wearing even though she bought it, the fact that Jon Benet was found in their house and hadn't left....the Christmas party where everyone was given a free tour, the shoes, the bed wetting....it is all a giant mess. I never trusted Patsy or John at all. I don't think we will ever learn the truth. If indeed your theory happened....who sexually assaulted her? To think of doing that to your own child to cover an accident is terrible and sad.

Lizpuff wrote:

ThoughtBox wrote:

Lizpuff wrote:

I have looked into it quite a bit.  I don't know as much about it as Columbine but I do find it interesting.  I would be interested to hear anything from Burke.

I think we would have to wait until John Ramsey (age 72) dies, and even then, I seriously doubt it. All my recent research leads to me to believe (in VERY simplified form) that Burke hit JonBenet on the head with a flashlight during an argument of some sort, rendering her unconscious and what he thought was "dead," that Patsy heard noise and found them in the basement, and from there the elaborate staging of an "intruder" and the unending web of lies began.

So, in a way, no one actually "murdered" JonBenet, it was a stupid childish accident that got out of control. Can't believe it's going on 20 years this Christmas.

The whole thing makes me ill.  That poor girl.  The mother denying the underwear she was wearing even though she bought it, the fact that Jon Benet was found in their house and hadn't left....the Christmas party where everyone was given a free tour, the shoes, the bed wetting....it is all a giant mess.  I never trusted Patsy or John at all.  I don't think we will ever learn the truth.  If indeed your theory happened....who sexually assaulted her?  To think of doing that to your own child to cover an accident is terrible and sad.

I tend to believe it was Burke and not John that did the molestation, based on several different medical opinions about the previous genital "trauma," which could also be ascribed to Patsy over-vigorously wiping her daughter after bedwetting. Who knows really.
As you say, the whole thing was a terrible, dirty mess. And we will probably never, ever know the truth. The lies upon lies upon lies make it nearly impossible to make anything up but an educated guess.

The excellent book "Foreign Faction" by former police chief Kolar is highly recommended reading!

I've read about this a few times over the years. I definitely think it was someone in the family who did it. Either her Mother or brother. As for the Mom, is it possible that JonBenet wet the bed and she got a little too rough with her? Threw her or something? Although the hole and crack in her skull looks like she was hit over the head with a golf club or some other heavy object.

It could have been the Brother as well. They said that he asleep the entire time but his finger prints were on the bowl of pineapple. Maybe the children ate it without their parents knowing and got into some sort of argument afterwards and he hit over the head?

The ransom notes just sounds ridiculous. 1. Who writes a 3 page ransom note? Usually ransom notes are very short and to the point. 2. Whoever wrote it used Patsy's notebook and pen. The notebook had sheets missing, like they wrote a practice note beforehand and then the final draft. Those missing papers were never found and didn't John leave the house at one point in time? 3. If the parents didn't hear or see anything, how did this 'kidnapper' go about finding a notebook, writing up a rough draft and then the final draft without turning on any lights or making any noise? And wasn't Patsy still in her clothes from the night before? That would lead me to believe that she hadn't gone to bed at all that night. So if she was up, wouldn't she see or hear someone writing a rough draft and then a 3 page ransom note? 4. The amount of the ransom was the same exact amount that John had just gotten for a Christmas bonus from his job. What are the chances that would happen? That the ransom would be a weird amount like that. $118 thousand? Wouldn't it be like $100 or $200 thousand? But $118? Come on now, that just sounds suspicious and also, kidnappers usually ask for a lot more than that, especially when the victims have a lot of money. The amount they asked for wasn't really all that much and being that they were 'a group of individuals', wouldn't they have to split the money? Would that amount really be worth it? No, kidnappers want to score big.

Also they claimed someone came in through a window in the basement, yet there was no shoe prints whatsoever in the snow outside the window or anywhere around it.

So those are just a few things that make me think someone in the family was responsible. The brother was only 9 years old but I guess it is possible for him to have done it but they said whoever tied the ropes around her neck had to be good with knots. Would a 9 year old know anything about tying knots? Or did he just hit her over the head and then one of the parents strangled her? But how could any parent strangle their 6 year old daughter or any child for that matter? That I could just not even imagine.

Jenn wrote:

Maybe the children ate it without their parents knowing and got into some sort of argument afterwards and he hit over the head?

... Or did he just hit her over the head and then one of the parents strangled her?

Both of these two suggestions you make is what I fully believe about this case. What I can't figure out is which Ramsey (or more than one??!!!??) was previously sexually abusing her as the coroner noted. I think the sexual abuse, and the fact the family absolutely did not that made known, was more important to them lying about than the actual death of JonBenet herself, and what kept the parents together when usually this type of "death" splits up married couples.

You should see the one forum I looked at, Websleuths.com, in relation to JonBenet's case. Though not much is posted on there currently, there are stragglers, but some of the threads routinely have upwards of 1,000 posts each!

Here's what I posted on WebSleuths today, my final thoughts on the JBR case. It's not as interesting as Columbine, in my opinion (though admitted, I'm biased! lol):

"After reading the posts here, I learned even a few more things that reinforce my opinion of Burke as the one who administered the blow to the head, which would have been fatal if not for the strangulation. Is it based on an overload of indisputable evidence? No. Is it based though in a thorough taking-in of things at face value, using logic, my knowledge of human psychology/aberrant behavior, particularly youth (I'm a mental health professional), and my "gut instinct" coupled with a firm belief in Occam's Razor theory? Yes. It all leads to Burke in some manner and/or form.

I'm not one that admits to hearing any young voice on the 911 call, BTW, so not sure what to make of that.

What bothers me the most about this case, and my belief BDI, is why JR and PR would go through this whole ridiculous charade for an obviously troubled child, who NEEDED professional help. To my logical mind, there are two possible answers to this: either they loved their child so much that they would risk EVERYTHING to cover for him (believable, but knowing both Ramsey's psyches, a little bit of a stretch), OR that there were other secrets that they would be hiding and covering up for in the course of covering up and shielding Burke (more likely)--that's the real mystery of the Ramsey case.

I have been a Columbine researcher for the last several years, and only got interested in this case recently, so I wasn't too immersed in the JBR case culture to get caught up in the various theories, red herrings, dialogue, petty arguments, ad nauseum. The BDI theory in my opinion is the only one that explains a lot of the supporting evidence AS WELL AS some of the legal and LE actions, ramifications, and impotence/ineffectiveness that has persisted over the past two decades.

As a JBR outsider on this forum and others, I guess that's all I have to say. I'll leave it to more seasoned writers/researchers to hash it all out. If I had the time and inclination, and wasn't afraid of litigation, I would probably be interested in writing a book about this theory at length using a wealth of academic research on children's violence. I wish you all the best in your search for the truth."


I think I'm done looking at the Ramsey case, certainly it's not (for me, at least), the rabbit-hole that is Columbine...

i can understand that you think one of her family was the murder. it´s reasonable. but they found a male dna lead of a stranger. so i have doubts.

em81 wrote:

i can understand that you think one of her family was the murder. it´s  reasonable. but they found a male dna lead of a stranger. so i have doubts.

That was just residue, possibly from a worker during the manufacturing process of her underwear. The IDI (intruder did it) theory has been effectively debunked in most reputable academic and forensic avenues.

FYI for those interested.....Burke will be on Dr Phil to speak about this crime on Sept 12,13, and 19

Here's what I think. I don't think any family member did it but they definitely knew who did it and covered it up. Got to be someone they know.

Lizpuff wrote:

FYI for those interested.....Burke will be on Dr Phil to speak about this crime on Sept 12,13, and 19

I know for one thing...it is Dr phil

And I also know Burke probably won't be "revealing" anything but it got me into the old reboot of the crime and now I am down the rabbithole

Lizpuff wrote:

FYI for those interested.....Burke will be on Dr Phil to speak about this crime on Sept 12,13, and 19

I never watch TV anymore and haven't read about JonBenet's case in a while so I would never have known. Thanks for posting this.

I got into researching JBR for about a week before I had to stop. Its so painfully obvious that the family not only covered up the murder, but that her mother in particular had been ignoring the sexual abuse quite some time as well. Its perfect example of what a rich powerful white family can get away with here in the US. IMO either:

A. Burke killed his sister while trying to sexually molest her. She said no/fought back and so he hit her over the head with a large flashlight. The parents find out, Patsy writes the ransom note and calls the police, and John hides the body and dresses it to look like an attempted kidnapping.

B. JonBenet wet her bed again (which had become a recurring issue), and after being woken up in the middle of the night to once again clean her sheets Patsy snapped. Patsy kills JonBenet with a blow to the head. Freaking out she writes the ransom note before waking John up. Realizing what happened John hides the body before instructing Patsy on how to talk to the police.

I personally think A is the more likely scenario. Burke had a history of jealousy towards his kiddie model sister. On top of that JonBenet had previously been diagnosed by a doctor with a UTI, something that usually only occurs in sexually abused children. Being a 9 year old who saw his sister constantly sexualized for pagents, coupled with the lack of attention from his parents, confused the Hell out of Burke. He loved his sister very much, but by the time he started reaching puberty his growing sexual urges became aimed at her as well. She tried to stop him that night, took it as a kind of rejection, and lost his cool on her.

Have you heard the 911 tape? Supposedly Burke can be heard in the background asking what happened. John says something that sounds like "we aren't talking to you". Also the Ramsey's fought tooth and nail to keep Burke out of an interview room. Even if he didnt do it Burke knew something the Ramsey's didnt want getting out.

Isn't Burke a little too young and small then to have such force on Jonbenet? My theory is an acquaintance of the family, someone who probably works with them and they wouldn't dare jeopardise their position but snitching on the person

ultraviolencelv wrote:

Isn't Burke a little too young and small then to have such force on Jonbenet? My theory is an acquaintance of the family, someone who probably works with them and they wouldn't dare jeopardise their position but snitching on the person

Burke was 9 at the time and she was 6. A popular theory is JonBenet had allowed Burke to "play" with her before, but she was starting to mature and realize what was going on wasnt approrpiate. She finally told him no, fought back when he forced himself on her, and he killed her on accident.

What about the fresh untouched snow though? Or the basement window that John claimed had been opened even though it was covered in undisturbed spider webbing? If it was someone other than family that person had to arrive before the snow fell, entered through the front door (since no windows had been opened), hide until the family returned from the party and went to bed, killed JonBenet without waking anyone else up, and then somehow managed to hide for days in the house until police were done with the scene.

I'm not saying it isn't possible of course. There's just way more logical explanations involving the family than a "stranger". Plus the Colorado Courts recommended the Ramsey's be indicted for the murder, but their connections to law enforcement kept it from happening. There's more than enough evidence to put the crime at the Ramsyes feet.

Alright. I'm only relying my knowledge of this case through an episode of a podcast covering this.

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CBS is also doing a doc series on this

Lizpuff wrote:

FYI for those interested.....Burke will be on Dr Phil to speak about this crime on Sept 12,13, and 19

I won't be watching this, I've seen some clips, and he is smiling and acting just generally creepy. Whatever he says isn't going to change my mind that he had a hand in her murder, quite possibly being the one who whacked her so hard on the head that she would have died regardless of the half-assed stragulation/garroting that either Patsy and/or John did to hide the fact about what he (Burke) did.
Just my (semi-professional) opinion...

ThoughtBox wrote:

Lizpuff wrote:

FYI for those interested.....Burke will be on Dr Phil to speak about this crime on Sept 12,13, and 19

I won't be watching this, I've seen some clips, and he is smiling and acting just generally creepy. Whatever he says isn't going to change my mind that he had a hand in her murder, quite possibly being the one who whacked her so hard on the head that she would have died regardless of the half-assed stragulation/garroting that either Patsy and/or John did to hide the fact about what he (Burke) did.
Just my (semi-professional) opinion...

Glad to see you back TB!

I won't be watching either mostly because I will be commuting home at that time but I think I will try to catch it on YT later.

I will probably add a summary to this thread if anyone is interested

He does look very odd with that smile on his face....

Burke smiling during the interview is no different than how Joe Stair reacted after the shooting at Columbine. Everyone reacts differently and I see no reason to hold any suspicions because of it.

DR Phil explained that Burke has social anxiety and smiling is kinda how he copes when he is nervous. I can understand that.

shades wrote:

Isn't Burke a little too young and small then to have such force on Jonbenet? My theory is an acquaintance of the family, someone who probably works with them and they wouldn't dare jeopardise their position but snitching on the person

Be ready tonight for the group of investigators to name Burke Ramsey as the most likely suspect in the ACCIDENTAL death of JBR. The CBS show will confirm what many of us BDI (Burke did it) Ramsey armchair detectives already know.

Can't wait to see the fallout (if any) on this.

ThoughtBox wrote:

shades wrote:

Isn't Burke a little too young and small then to have such force on Jonbenet? My theory is an acquaintance of the family, someone who probably works with them and they wouldn't dare jeopardise their position but snitching on the person

Be ready tonight for the group of investigators to name Burke Ramsey as the most likely suspect in the ACCIDENTAL death of JBR. The CBS show will confirm what many of us BDI (Burke did it) Ramsey armchair detectives already know.

Can't wait to see the fallout (if any) on this.

shades wrote:

Isn't Burke a little too young and small then to have such force on Jonbenet? My theory is an acquaintance of the family, someone who probably works with them and they wouldn't dare jeopardise their position but snitching on the person

Didn't he strike her with a golf club the year before? Doesn't seem too much of a jump for him to have struck her dead by accident and the family decided to cover for him, knowing that they would lose him as well.

Out of curiousity, has anyone here read the newer book out about this case called "We Have Your Daughter"? If you have followed this case or have interest in it, I highly recommend it!!

TaylorsMom wrote:

Out of curiousity, has anyone here read the newer book out about this case called "We Have Your Daughter"?  If you have followed this case or have interest in it, I highly recommend it!!

I have not! I will look into it!

It's by Paula Woodward, it's full of stuff I never knew about the case however I've only been researching this specific case for just a few months. I am really enjoying it!!

Lizpuff wrote:

The whole thing makes me ill.  That poor girl.  The mother denying the underwear she was wearing even though she bought it, the fact that Jon Benet was found in their house and hadn't left....the Christmas party where everyone was given a free tour, the shoes, the bed wetting....it is all a giant mess.  I never trusted Patsy or John at all.  I don't think we will ever learn the truth.  If indeed your theory happened....who sexually assaulted her?  To think of doing that to your own child to cover an accident is terrible and sad.

I'm only a little familiar with the case. It definitely interests me and I always come back to it to find out more information about it. 2 things you mentioned I cannot find any information on and was wondering if you could explain it a little more? That is what you said about a Christmas Party tour and the pair of shoes? I'm trying to figure out how those 2 things tie into the case.

I know the night she was murdered they were at a Christmas Party but that was at someone else's house. Are you referring to that party or did they have their own party and if so, what happened at it?

I haven't read any books on this crime or anything like that but I've read things online and those 2 things I can't really find anything on.

Lizpuff wrote:

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CBS is also doing a doc series on this

If I am not mistaken, this is the same series that Burke Ramsey is now suing CBS for. Because the doc suggested he was the perpetrator, he is asking for 750 million dollars.

Only. Just.

Jenn wrote:

Lizpuff wrote:

The whole thing makes me ill.  That poor girl.  The mother denying the underwear she was wearing even though she bought it, the fact that Jon Benet was found in their house and hadn't left....the Christmas party where everyone was given a free tour, the shoes, the bed wetting....it is all a giant mess.  I never trusted Patsy or John at all.  I don't think we will ever learn the truth.  If indeed your theory happened....who sexually assaulted her?  To think of doing that to your own child to cover an accident is terrible and sad.

I'm only a little familiar with the case. It definitely interests me and I always come back to it to find out more information about it. 2 things you mentioned I cannot find any information on and was wondering if you could explain it a little more? That is what you said about a Christmas Party tour and the pair of shoes? I'm trying to figure out how those 2 things tie into the case.

I know the night she was murdered they were at a Christmas Party but that was at someone else's house. Are you referring to that party or did they have their own party and if so, what happened at it?

I haven't read any books on this crime or anything like that but I've read things online and those 2 things I can't really find anything on.

Of the tour- I read on a site - which I will get the quote or link for when I have more time, that the Ramseys participated in a house tour for Christmas that year where people in Boulder would sign up and tour other homes to get ideas for Christmas decorations and just general decorations. So they went to other homes and people quite possibly a lot of other people got to tour their home.

And the shoes I mean the Hi Tec Brand shoe prints they found around the crime scene but couldn't find any shoes to match.

This case is tragic and haunting and disturbing and every other descriptive you can find in a thesaurus. I have my own opinions about what happened, but.....

Can I just say I HATE the name JonBenet? Especially the way the parents pronounced the "J" as a "G" or something. If it wasn't so sad, it would be tacky and trashy. And Patsy's voice? Holy hell its like fingernails on a chalkboard! I'm sorry, I know I'm being mean, but it has killed me for 20 years! *Sigh* I feel better now.

Tomb wrote:

Can I just say I HATE the name JonBenet? Especially the way the parents pronounced the "J" as a "G" or something. If it wasn't so sad, it would be tacky and trashy.

Haha, yeah, her name is a 'portmanteau' of her fathers' first and middle names. And the accent aigu and uppercase 'B' in the middle and everything! Such a rich girl name.

Then there's her brother...

"Hi. I'm BURKE."

....

@subrbanmessiah HA! Finally someone sees the banality of what would be a stripper name. I've studied that case top to bottom and the name is nauseating. And thanks for schooling me about it. I knew it was some fashion of her dad's name but I never knew the technical terms.

I call her JohnBenet.

Hey, do you think John Mark Karr was actually castrated?

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] He says he was. But I dunno. He says a lot of things.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] you'll probably laugh, especially considering my job, but when he appeared on the CBS special, I didn't sleep a wink! He was scary enough that I thought that he should inspire a Halloween mask. He was unashamed of being attracted to children, which makes him even creepier to me. As much travelingthat he did and the very nature of his job makes it such that you wonder what terror he left in his wake. Blech.