Done

seether wrote:

Does anyone know exactly how long it was, before the two photographs were taken of the bodies of Dylan and Eric in the library? I'm SO curious about that one, like pretty much everyone else. I think that Dylan definitely is not in the position in which he landed, after falling to the floor. I've heard the theory that he was pushed over, or kicked over, by police/SWAT; that's upsetting to think of. I know that they have to stay safe, and might have felt that he was best turned over from a distance, but it makes a difference if he was nudged over, or forcefully kicked over. Just regard for a human body, regardless of the circumstance. It's horrifying to consider how the bodies of so many people were treated (or neglected) after this.

I also think there's weight to the idea that he turned over himself, just before death, whether voluntarily or not - if he was conscious to any degree, I think it would be instinct to turn from anything pressing against his face. Maybe even if he was unconscious; thinking about the reflexes I've seen on ultrasounds and then in person, with my babies, it's amazing what reflexes we have, and how strong they can be.

Then there's a similar idea, that I really haven't seen mentioned by name, but would make sense given that he died in a very sudden and violent manner. Even if he had fallen face first onto Eric's leg, and hadn't moved himself voluntarily or involuntarily while choking, it's very possible IMO that a "cadaveric spasm" would account for his position (just as I imagine it would account for other people, such as one student who was clutching a pencil).

That question is one that puzzles me the most. I'm definitely not well versed in wounds like his, where death might be slower. It appears that he had been on his face, looking at the flow of blood; however, and this could be completely off, it looks as though he didn't spend much time in that position. Would he have such a large amount of blood underneath him, if he were turned over hours after his death? The blood etc. from his face first position seems very minor in comparison, impact injury aside, when you look at the trickle of blood on his face... I'm not sure why it matters, but it just nags at me. I understand that a large amount of blood came from Eric, when moving him, but that's understandable, given that it was a collection of blood and perhaps other fluids that would not have evaporated or dried quickly.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] I appreciate that you brought up the possibility that the result of their autopsies could actually be due to their bodies being moved meaning their positions altered the results and can't really be confirmed as the cause of death. I actually never thought of it that way. Your paragraph is pretty thought provoking.

And do you really consider that Eric had inflicted self harm on himself? Did it mention anything about the cuts being really old scars? I have read a few people saying it wasn't really self infliction but he could've gotten them from making things and the instruments he used could've gotten to him or whatsoever IDK

I'm not entirely sure how bombs are constructed; however, I'm fairly familiar with guns, cleaning and handling, and alterations (never done the last one, just witnessed it many times as a kid). I find it really hard to imagine how one might inflict those wounds by accident. I'm an absolute klutz, and I've worked with tools, machines, kitchenware, you name it - I have many scars, but none of those make it to that part of my arms. There was no mention of healed scars, just cuts etc., so I assume they were recent. My "collection" includes both small puncture marks, but more cuts. I've had voluntary psych care, and in intake reports, they always differentiated between cuts and scars. I'll see what else I can find, but it's something I've wondered about.

The position of the cut sounds like the place one would say, contemplate serious self harm and this is coming from an ex cutter too. I mean, that's quite a common spot for one to almost "hit the spot" if they felt close to suicidal but, never really got that far. and ditto on it being on the non-dominant arm too.

Personally I think the 'lacerations and cuts' were sustained from his activities that day. I mean they did a lot of damage to that school. I read a report that stated Eric was leaning out of the broken window of one of the entrance doors so he could shoot at the first cop on the scene. Glass cuts so easily and when it shatters it can go everywhere, and they busted out a lot of windows that day.

Exactly - I apologize if this is triggering, but that was my "sweet spot" - if I didn't want to cause a lot of risky damage, but I wanted to cut, that was my go-to spot. With the advent of movements like The Body Positive Movement, and The Semicolon Project, a lot more people are daring to go sleeveless, and I'm really amazed by the number of people who have scars in the same place. I totally applaud the sleeveless thing, just at the same time, it's sobering and kind of surreal, to think of how many of us lived through this. I hope that you're feeling better, these days. xoxo

seether wrote:

Exactly - I apologize if this is triggering, but that was my "sweet spot" - if I didn't want to cause a lot of risky damage, but I wanted to cut, that was my go-to spot.  With the advent of movements like The Body Positive Movement, and The Semicolon Project, a lot more people are daring to go sleeveless, and I'm really amazed by the number of people who have scars in the same place.  I totally applaud the sleeveless thing, just at the same time, it's sobering and kind of surreal, to think of how many of us lived through this.  I hope that you're feeling better, these days. xoxo

That's also plausible - it's just such an exact area. I would expect more extensive lacerations with broken glass etc., and in more areas, but who knows...

The best way to decide is how fresh or old the cuts were and if it seemed repetitive.

Yep, and we'll never know. Ugh.

From Dylan's autopsy:

Quote :

"Present on the anterior aspect of the proximal portion of the right lower extremity are several tiny healing reddish-brown abrasions. There is a cluster of three yellow-brown contusions on the anterior-lateral aspect of the right lower leg, varying in size from ¼” to 1". Present on the lateral aspect of the left knee is a cluster of three yellow-brown contusions, varying in size from ¼" to 5/8".

Those definitely sound like SI marks, IME.

There was mention of healing abrasions on his left hand, but I think those are more likely to be from shooting practice.

Sure does sound like self infliction. Although, pretty odd spots.

Oh gosh, I didn't know that about Lauren (that she was suffering for a few minutes before death). Poor girl. Poor everyone.

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Based on the autopsy summaries/reports, aspirated blood was reported only with Cassie Bernall & Dylan Klebold

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Tomb wrote:

Aortas, hearts, massive head wounds you don't *think* they suffered at all. Likely, they don't, it's science. But, when you have blood in the lungs that means they breathed after being wounded. When it's wounds that take time to exsanguinate, you can deduce that they sustained life long enough to breathe in blood. So, although they were "alive", you don't know what they felt or if they even knew what happened. I hope I'm not confusing, I try not to be, I try to speak English.

I kind of understand. I am by no means an expert in any of this. I took one course on death investigations in college and understood *some* of the jargon, but honestly it just goes over my head. That said, I do find post mortem/autopsy reports interesting to learn about (I didn't mean to sound creepy there, I swear).

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This is one of my favorite threads. So much information! I find it fascinating!

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AUTOPSIES

JCSO Investigator Location Performed Numeric Designator Name of Victim

Feisoci Arapahoe County [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] Lauren Townsend

Felsoci Arapahoe County [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] Kelly Fleming

Beery Denver Health Ctr. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] John Tomlin

Muse Denver Health Ctr. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] Corey DePooter

Schoshke Jefferson County [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] Daniel Mauser

Beery Denver Health Ctr. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] Matthew Kechter

Lock Boulder Comm. Hos.[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] Isaiah Shoels

Lock Boulder Comm. Hos.[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] Steven Curnow

Beery Denver Health Ctr. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] Cassie Bernall

Muse Denver Health Ctr. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] Kyle Velasquez

Schoshke Jefferson County [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] Dylan Klebold

Schoshke Jefferson County [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] Eric Harris

Felsoci Arapahoe County [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] Dave Sanders

Felsoci Arapahoe County [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] Rachel Scott

Schoshke Jefferson County [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] Dan Rohrbough


Would it be possible to obtain the Full Autopsy Reports from Coroner's Office?

Jefferson County Coroner

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
303-271-6480

Monday-Friday
8:30 a.m.-4:00 p.m.

800 Jefferson County Parkway
Dakota Building
Golden, CO 80401

Doctors who Performed the Autopsies:

Lauren Townsend - Michael J Doberson - Arapahoe County

Kelly Fleming - Michael J Doberson - Arapahoe County

John Tomlin - Thomas E Henry - Denver

Corey DePooter - James W Wahe - Denver

Daniel Mauser - Ben Galloway - Jefferson County

Matt Kechter - Thomas E Henry - Denver

Isaiah Shoels - John E Meyer - Boulder

Steven Curnow - John E Meyer - Boulder

Cassie Bernall - Thomas E Henry - Denver

Kyle Velasquez - James W Wahe - Denver

Dylan Klebold - Ben Galloway - Jefferson County

Eric Harris - Ben Galloway - Jefferson County

Dave Sanders - Michael J Doberson - Arapahoe county

Rachel Scott - Michael J Doberson - Arapahoe County

Dan Rohbough - Ben Galloway - Jefferson County


We already have the full autopsy reports for the ones in bold.

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PaintItBlack wrote:

People call E &D cowards but I don't agree.

Of course you don't agree. You spend all your time either defending Eric or minimizing his actions.

To all but the lunatic fringe, anyone who will shoot a defenseless child in the face is a coward. Period. They are both beyond defending yet this doesn't stop some people from doing it. Amazing.