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 Why did they do it?

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RaiseTheFist
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PostSubject: Why did they do it?   Why did they do it? Icon_minitimeSat May 04, 2013 10:28 am

Since we seem to be getting more members and we haven't recently discussed this, I think it's a good idea to know where everyone stands on the subject.



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PostSubject: Re: Why did they do it?   Why did they do it? Icon_minitimeSat May 04, 2013 12:38 pm

Why kill yourself alone in your bedroom when you can leave a 'lasting impression' on the world?
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PostSubject: Re: Why did they do it?   Why did they do it? Icon_minitimeSat May 04, 2013 2:31 pm

"You kill with me, I'll die with you."

Eric, though suicidal, yearned for revenge against fellow students he so hated. He longed to be a popular, tall, muscular jock. He wanted to move back to Plattsburgh. He couldn't achieve that, no matter how he tried.

Dylan, though homicidal, wanted an end to his constant wallowing in wangst. He was obviously insecure and awkward. His low self esteem probably helped him latch onto Eric - someone who gave him attention and looked at him as an equal, as it seems.

Someone who would be willing to exact 'revenge' - and calculated, methodical revenge, at that.

They did it as revenge.

And, partially, they wanted to be known.

Who hasn't desired for fame at some point?

Eric and Dylan certainly did. And they did it the easy way.

It's easier to make headlines via massacring your fellow students rather than committing suicide or by creating a video game. It's quicker.

The two wanted to leave their mark on the world. To have their names in the history books. To be infamous.

They certainly took their time creating their 'personas' - Reb and VoDkA, the mass murderers who wrote of hate and lost love in their journals. Who made pipebombs and sawed off guns.

The infamy, the end to their lives, the revenge they so desired... Add in adolescent angst, red flags gone unnoticed, and two very disturbed minds that had not yet fully developed... And the result is April 20th, 1999.
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PostSubject: Re: Why did they do it?   Why did they do it? Icon_minitimeSat May 04, 2013 5:40 pm

MarmaladeSkies wrote:
Why kill yourself alone in your bedroom when you can leave a 'lasting impression' on the world?

I know I shouldn't have laughed at this, but I did.

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PostSubject: Re: Why did they do it?   Why did they do it? Icon_minitimeSat May 04, 2013 7:54 pm

MarmaladeSkies wrote:
Why kill yourself alone in your bedroom when you can leave a 'lasting impression' on the world?

If I had a son who was suicidal and treated poorly, I'd rather him go out with a bang than kill himself quietly and leave his not-innocent community unharmed.

I'm not going to lie about it -I believe what E/D did is a legitimate expression of rage and is acceptable. I know, I'm a complete insensitive asshole.

On Why They Did It: Personally (only my opinion of course), I believe Eric thoroughly enjoyed violence and would have enjoyed it even if he'd been treated respectfully. He chose to act on his fantasies because, after the way his community treated him, he no longer felt any empathy towards them. Simply put, he wanted to have fun. His fantasies were so great that he convinced himself they were worth dying for, and that it was heroic to not be afraid of death. Dylan was nihilistic and suicidal for many years and thought Eric's plan sounded like a barrel of laughs.
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PostSubject: Re: Why did they do it?   Why did they do it? Icon_minitimeMon May 06, 2013 2:27 am

RaiseTheFist wrote:
I'm not going to lie about it -I believe what E/D did is a legitimate expression of rage and is acceptable. I know, I'm a complete insensitive asshole.

In your case you feel empathy for E/D and therefore you can't be insensitive. Most people however wouldn't call their actions "acceptable" (and neither would I, for those who care).
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PostSubject: Re: Why did they do it?   Why did they do it? Icon_minitimeMon May 06, 2013 2:59 am

Jaan wrote:
RaiseTheFist wrote:
I'm not going to lie about it -I believe what E/D did is a legitimate expression of rage and is acceptable. I know, I'm a complete insensitive asshole.

In your case you feel empathy for E/D and therefore you can't be insensitive. Most people however wouldn't call their actions "acceptable" (and neither would I, for those who care).

I'm not trying to argue that E/D's actions were moral, but I do believe there is something deeply wrong with the world, and E/D's response to this world was acceptable.

In western society, we have a lot of material comfort but our social interactions are often vicious, thoughtless, and downright soul-destroying. It seems only normal for a teenager to question why the people around them choose to treat them poorly, and why their community justifies this poor treatment. A world like that is worth attacking.

To me, E/D are a time-bomb their community built. I find it next to impossible to feel any sympathy for their victims. I'm not happy they're dead. I just don't care. Most people would consider me a jerk.
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PostSubject: Re: Why did they do it?   Why did they do it? Icon_minitimeMon May 06, 2013 3:20 am

It seems normal to question this for an adult too. Humans aren't nice and considerate it's not in their nature, but I don't believe that's a good argument to attack the whole society.
The stupid thing is I can feel you and I have more compassion with E/D than with the victims but my consience won't allow me to feel that way.
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PostSubject: Re: Why did they do it?   Why did they do it? Icon_minitimeMon May 06, 2013 5:17 am

Jaan wrote:
It seems normal to question this for an adult too. Humans aren't nice and considerate it's not in their nature, but I don't believe that's a good argument to attack the whole society.
The stupid thing is I can feel you and I have more compassion with E/D than with the victims but my consience won't allow me to feel that way.

I suppose I believe that humans CAN be respectful to each other. So I'm angry they CHOOSE not to be.

I'm not saying that everyone should have liked E/D, only that if they didn't like them, they should have left them alone.

Do people deserve to be murdered for not leaving E/D alone? The idea that it's OK to treat people this way deserves to be murdered... and I'm not really sure how E/D could have attacked this idea without killing people in the meantime.

One of these days I'm going to get flamed really bad for saying these asshole things.
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PostSubject: Re: Why did they do it?   Why did they do it? Icon_minitimeMon May 06, 2013 6:08 am

RaiseTheFist wrote:
Jaan wrote:
It seems normal to question this for an adult too. Humans aren't nice and considerate it's not in their nature, but I don't believe that's a good argument to attack the whole society.
The stupid thing is I can feel you and I have more compassion with E/D than with the victims but my consience won't allow me to feel that way.

I suppose I believe that humans CAN be respectful to each other. So I'm angry they CHOOSE not to be.

I'm not saying that everyone should have liked E/D, only that if they didn't like them, they should have left them alone.

Do people deserve to be murdered for not leaving E/D alone? The idea that it's OK to treat people this way deserves to be murdered... and I'm not really sure how E/D could have attacked this idea without killing people in the meantime.

One of these days I'm going to get flamed really bad for saying these asshole things.

That's a nice point of view, you don't kill the kids but instead you kill what they stand for. For myself I have some problems with this, the murdered kids were not the one's practicing the "idea". For E/D they were all the same so in their opinion it was OK.

For the real question in this topic. Eric had a fascination for violence and hated the stupidness of his fellow humans, Dylan also had a fascination for violence but he hated the shallowness of other humans. Because they both considered themself above the others it seems logical to eliminate these lowers lifeforms.
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PostSubject: Re: Why did they do it?   Why did they do it? Icon_minitimeMon May 06, 2013 6:41 am

Quote :
That's a nice point of view, you don't kill the kids but instead you kill what they stand for. For myself I have some problems with this, the murdered kids were not the one's practicing the "idea". For E/D they were all the same so in their opinion it was OK.

Those dead teenagers might not have been practicing the "idea", but I'm pretty sure E/D saw them as supporting it.

I don't think E/D are saints. They behaved like jerks too, plenty of times. But they killed themselves, so I doubt they honestly valued their own lives anymore than they valued others.

Look, like I said before, I'm just one lone idiot with my particular insensitive point of view. Ignore me and just chat to the more rational, thoughtful people who post on this board.
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PostSubject: Re: Why did they do it?   Why did they do it? Icon_minitimeMon May 06, 2013 6:44 am

Lone idiots make the world interesting Very Happy .
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PostSubject: Re: Why did they do it?   Why did they do it? Icon_minitimeMon May 06, 2013 6:54 am

Thanks for not flaming me.

My head is fucked. Goodnight.
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PostSubject: Re: Why did they do it?   Why did they do it? Icon_minitimeWed May 08, 2013 3:50 pm

Yeah, killing innocent kids, most of whom you've never spoken to or had any interaction with in your life, is totally an acceptable way of dealing with your anger. Try that argument on one of the victims parents. Really, think about it. They aren't just names on a wiki page. At least you recognize your own insensitivity.

I think it's okay to have sympathy for Eric and Dylan. I think it's easy to read some of the things they wrote and find humanity in them. I think Eric was fairly normal outside of having an unbelievable anger problem that he apparently had no control of. But to have no sympathy for the victims? This is why I can't read these boards. Who are you people? That is just utterly incomprehensible. They had nothing to do with E/D's problems. Here is a test. Go watch the Daniel Mauser tribute vid his dad uploaded on youtube. Tell me you don't feel awful for that family.
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PostSubject: Re: Why did they do it?   Why did they do it? Icon_minitimeWed May 08, 2013 4:34 pm

pallota39 wrote:
Yeah, killing innocent kids, most of whom you've never spoken to or had any interaction with in your life, is totally an acceptable way of dealing with your anger. Try that argument on one of the victims parents. Really, think about it. They aren't just names on a wiki page. At least you recognize your own insensitivity.

I think it's okay to have sympathy for Eric and Dylan. I think it's easy to read some of the things they wrote and find humanity in them. I think Eric was fairly normal outside of having an unbelievable anger problem that he apparently had no control of. But to have no sympathy for the victims? This is why I can't read these boards. Who are you people? That is just utterly incomprehensible. They had nothing to do with E/D's problems. Here is a test. Go watch the Daniel Mauser tribute vid his dad uploaded on youtube. Tell me you don't feel awful for that family.

I've seen it. Once it got to Christmas, 1998, I couldn't watch it anymore.

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PostSubject: Re: Why did they do it?   Why did they do it? Icon_minitimeWed May 08, 2013 9:09 pm

pallota39 wrote:
Yeah, killing innocent kids, most of whom you've never spoken to or had any interaction with in your life, is totally an acceptable way of dealing with your anger. Try that argument on one of the victims parents. Really, think about it. They aren't just names on a wiki page. At least you recognize your own insensitivity.

I think it's okay to have sympathy for Eric and Dylan. I think it's easy to read some of the things they wrote and find humanity in them. I think Eric was fairly normal outside of having an unbelievable anger problem that he apparently had no control of. But to have no sympathy for the victims? This is why I can't read these boards. Who are you people? That is just utterly incomprehensible. They had nothing to do with E/D's problems. Here is a test. Go watch the Daniel Mauser tribute vid his dad uploaded on youtube. Tell me you don't feel awful for that family.

I'm sorry if I've hurt or upset anyone. I really am. My intention was to be honest. I'm not laughing at E/D's victims families. I don't get any personal joy out of their suffering.

I haven't seen the Mauser tribute video. I'm willing to watch it if someone posts the link. But I HAVE seen the "13 Families" movie, and -I'm going to be perfectly honest here- the whole time I was watching it, all I could think was that these families are no different than the students/families that I hated in my own community. These are exactly the kind of people who hate me as much as I hate them. They don't hate me to my face (though some of those families would have if they met me as a teenager, and that further reduces my sympathy for them), but they definitely make life choices that seriously fucking destroy lives. Watching "13 Families", I wasn't laughing sadistically, but I definitely wasn't caring.

Everyone else on this board has sympathy for E/D's victims. The whole WORLD has sympathy for E/D's victims. And I'm not trying to change their mind. I'm just one dipshit person. Who cares if I support E/D's actions?

I'm willing to discuss this respectfully. I really am. I do think about: What if someone close to me had died at Columbine? I do try to imagine if I had lost a son or a daughter or brother or sister at Columbine. If I had lost a child in such a brutal way, I'd never recover. The pain would drive me insane. When I say that I don't feel sympathy for E/D's victims, I'm not saying that their families shouldn't feel any pain -it's only natural that they feel terrible pain, and I'm not denying them that.

But if I'd lost a child at Columbine, I would view the event as a natural consequence of living in that community (or any other just like it). That doesn't mean I wouldn't feel irreparable pain. But I wouldn't blame E/D's choice to attack. In an attack like this, there's always the chance that a truly decent person might get killed. I don't know any of E/D's victims, and I don't know whether or not they supported the shitty actions of their community. E/D's victims were not kids, they were teenagers. Kids genuinely are blameless, but teenagers are already established members of their community.

In my eyes, E/D didn't have an anger problem. Complete And Total Rage is pretty sane response to society, if I'm going to be honest.

I've mentioned this before on this board, but I'm going to drag it up again: After E/D's attack, certain associates of E/D's came under attack. Even though they were innocent, or only mildly involved, their actual LIVES were threatened. When hurt, E/D's community responded the exact same way that E/D did -with Complete And Total Rage. E/D's community believe homicidal rage was an unacceptable response for E/D's hurt, but it's a perfectly fine response for their hurt.

Once again, I'm a bitter and thoughtless asshole. I wish I could be as caring as everyone else on this board. I can't. It doesn't work that way for me, and I'm sorry. pallota39, I'm sure you're a nice person. Don't stop posting on this board because of me. There's only one jerk on this board. The rest are great.
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PostSubject: Re: Why did they do it?   Why did they do it? Icon_minitimeWed May 08, 2013 9:22 pm

RaiseTheFist wrote:
pallota39 wrote:
Yeah, killing innocent kids, most of whom you've never spoken to or had any interaction with in your life, is totally an acceptable way of dealing with your anger. Try that argument on one of the victims parents. Really, think about it. They aren't just names on a wiki page. At least you recognize your own insensitivity.

I think it's okay to have sympathy for Eric and Dylan. I think it's easy to read some of the things they wrote and find humanity in them. I think Eric was fairly normal outside of having an unbelievable anger problem that he apparently had no control of. But to have no sympathy for the victims? This is why I can't read these boards. Who are you people? That is just utterly incomprehensible. They had nothing to do with E/D's problems. Here is a test. Go watch the Daniel Mauser tribute vid his dad uploaded on youtube. Tell me you don't feel awful for that family.

I'm sorry if I've hurt or upset anyone. I really am. My intention was to be honest. I'm not laughing at E/D's victims families. I don't get any personal joy out of their suffering.

I haven't seen the Mauser tribute video. I'm willing to watch it if someone posts the link. But I HAVE seen the "13 Families" movie, and -I'm going to be perfectly honest here- the whole time I was watching it, all I could think was that these families are no different than the students/families that I hated in my own community. These are exactly the kind of people who hate me as much as I hate them. They don't hate me to my face (though some of those families would have if they met me as a teenager, and that further reduces my sympathy for them), but they definitely make life choices that seriously fucking destroy lives. Watching "13 Families", I wasn't laughing sadistically, but I definitely wasn't caring.

Everyone else on this board has sympathy for E/D's victims. The whole WORLD has sympathy for E/D's victims. And I'm not trying to change their mind. I'm just one dipshit person. Who cares if I support E/D's actions?

I'm willing to discuss this respectfully. I really am. I do think about: What if someone close to me had died at Columbine? I do try to imagine if I had lost a son or a daughter or brother or sister at Columbine. If I had lost a child in such a brutal way, I'd never recover. The pain would drive me insane. When I say that I don't feel sympathy for E/D's victims, I'm not saying that their families shouldn't feel any pain -it's only natural that they feel terrible pain, and I'm not denying them that.

But if I'd lost a child at Columbine, I would view the event as a natural consequence of living in that community (or any other just like it). That doesn't mean I wouldn't feel irreparable pain. But I wouldn't blame E/D's choice to attack. In an attack like this, there's always the chance that a truly decent person might get killed. I don't know any of E/D's victims, and I don't know whether or not they supported the shitty actions of their community. E/D's victims were not kids, they were teenagers. Kids genuinely are blameless, but teenagers are already established members of their community.

In my eyes, E/D didn't have an anger problem. Complete And Total Rage is pretty sane response to society, if I'm going to be honest.

I've mentioned this before on this board, but I'm going to drag it up again: After E/D's attack, certain associates of E/D's came under attack. Even though they were innocent, or only mildly involved, their actual LIVES were threatened. When hurt, E/D's community responded the exact same way that E/D did -with Complete And Total Rage. E/D's community believe homicidal rage was an unacceptable response for E/D's hurt, but it's a perfectly fine response for their hurt.

Once again, I'm a bitter and thoughtless asshole. I wish I could be as caring as everyone else on this board. I can't. It doesn't work that way for me, and I'm sorry. pallota39, I'm sure you're a nice person. Don't stop posting on this board because of me. There's only one jerk on this board. The rest are great.

Nice post and I appreciate your honesty. Not everyone feels the same and everyone's opinions are different. I want everyone to feel like they can speak openly about how they feel on this board, so don't feel like you can't.

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PostSubject: Re: Why did they do it?   Why did they do it? Icon_minitimeWed May 08, 2013 10:07 pm

I also agree with Jenn. I would rather have you be honest about the way you truly feel than to pretend to be something you are not.
Here is the link to the Daniel Mauser tribute video.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
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PostSubject: Re: Why did they do it?   Why did they do it? Icon_minitimeThu May 09, 2013 1:50 am

RaiseTheFist wrote:
Everyone else on this board has sympathy for E/D's victims.

Not likely. Half the people here have E/D quotes in their sigs. Most seem to be closet fans that disguise their admiration by claiming to be "researchers".

RaiseTheFist wrote:
The whole WORLD has sympathy for E/D's victims. And I'm not trying to change their mind. I'm just one dipshit person. Who cares if I support E/D's actions?

If you're trying to present your opinion as legitimate, you should probably stop calling yourself a dipshit.

RaiseTheFist wrote:
But if I'd lost a child at Columbine, I would view the event as a natural consequence of living in that community (or any other just like it). That doesn't mean I wouldn't feel irreparable pain. But I wouldn't blame E/D's choice to attack. In an attack like this, there's always the chance that a truly decent person might get killed. I don't know any of E/D's victims, and I don't know whether or not they supported the shitty actions of their community. E/D's victims were not kids, they were teenagers. Kids genuinely are blameless, but teenagers are already established members of their community.

Here's your problem. You're completely romanticizing the community E/D lived in. You realize Eric would have flown a plane into NYC if he could have, right? There was nothing special about Littleton or the jocks at Columbine. Eric wasn't treated any worse than the however many thousands of kids that got called 'fag' at school today. How many of them do you think plot terrorist attacks when they get home from school?

RaiseTheFist wrote:
Complete And Total Rage is pretty sane response to society, if I'm going to be honest.

Actually, it isn't, even if you capitalize it.

RaiseTheFist wrote:
I've mentioned this before on this board, but I'm going to drag it up again: After E/D's attack, certain associates of E/D's came under attack. Even though they were innocent, or only mildly involved, their actual LIVES were threatened. When hurt, E/D's community responded the exact same way that E/D did -with Complete And Total Rage. E/D's community believe homicidal rage was an unacceptable response for E/D's hurt, but it's a perfectly fine response for their hurt.

No. There is a difference between premeditated murder (E/D) and an emotional response to a senseless act of violence (community). So the community did not respond with Complete And Total Rage, whatever that is.

RaiseTheFist wrote:
Once again, I'm a bitter and thoughtless asshole. I wish I could be as caring as everyone else on this board. I can't. It doesn't work that way for me, and I'm sorry. pallota39, I'm sure you're a nice person. Don't stop posting on this board because of me. There's only one jerk on this board. The rest are great.

You realize it's possible to feel sympathy for both E/D and the victims, right? But saying what they did was somehow justified is incredibly stupid and disturbing. Doesn't that suggest that it should be emulated? Is that the kind of world you want to live in? Kids blowing up their schools for trivial reasons?

If all it takes is a stuck up community and a handful of jocks to create the necessary environment for a school bombing, you would see one every day, in every state. I'm sure most people here have been through high school. I have a hard time believing Columbine was this mythical place where the jocks were meaner, the expectations were higher and something horrible was bound to happen. Maybe it was, I don't know. But if you want to know "why" they did it, you would have to take a much closer look at E/D's psyche (mostly Eric's), and that requires details that no one will ever know. And you shoul probably go into it without the prerequisite notion that murdering innocent children is a valid social statement that accomplishes anything.


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PostSubject: Re: Why did they do it?   Why did they do it? Icon_minitimeThu May 09, 2013 6:44 am

Firstly, thank you CatherineM813 and Jenn for helping to keep this board one of the only places of genuine discussion left available. A lot of people crap on about free speech, very few are willing to allow it. Thank you. And thank you for kindly posting the link to the Mauser tribute video. My wireless is running too slow to watch it now, but I will do so when I can.

pallota39,
Quote :
Quote :
Everyone else on this board has sympathy for E/D's victims.

Not likely. Half the people here have E/D quotes in their sigs. Most seem to be closet fans that disguise their admiration by claiming to be "researchers".

You're very, very wrong. The people on this board (no, I don't include myself in this) are good, kind people. I'd go as far as to say that they are much more empathetic than the average person you'd meet on the street. Many of them are actively trying to understand their feelings towards Columbine.

People who have "E/D quotes in their sigs" are torn between knowing that high school is such a devastating experience for many teenagers -so devastating that attacking it might actually be worth dying for- and knowing that mass murder is tragic and morally wrong. I'm pretty certain that all of the people here (except me) would have stopped E/D from making their final attack if they could have.

Maybe some people on here do "enjoy" reading about E/D's attack, just like some people "enjoy" reading about serial killers. But "enjoying" it doesn't hurt anyone, and doesn't mean that these people condone the real life act committed by E/D.

Quote :
If you're trying to present your opinion as legitimate, you should probably stop calling yourself a dipshit.

I'm not trying to present my opinion as legitimate. It's only my OPINION. These are MY beliefs. I deeply believe that everyone should think long and hard about Columbine and decide for themselves where their sympathies lie.

Quote :
Here's your problem. You're completely romanticizing the community E/D lived in. You realize Eric would have flown a plane into NYC if he could have, right? There was nothing special about Littleton or the jocks at Columbine. Eric wasn't treated any worse than the however many thousands of kids that got called 'fag' at school today. How many of them do you think plot terrorist attacks when they get home from school?

You're right. There's nothing special about E/D's community. It's just as shitty as every other "fortunate" western world community. My own community included. I'm definitely NOT singling out Littleton. E/D could have attended and attacked any high school in the country and my sympathy would be the same. The western world is a great place in an enormous amount of ways, but some aspects of the western world are soul-destroying.

What kind of person walks up to a complete stranger and calls them a "fag"? This "trivial" behavior is part of something much, much larger -an appalling atmosphere of disrespect that makes it impossible for any human being to develop normally, and a complete unwillingness to discuss it.

If people can't just leave others alone -an action that requires no effort- then those people are disabled. How many teenagers come home from school and plot terrorist attacks? Not enough of them to get the message across. The message: That for some teenagers, their "lucky country" lives are so devastating that declaring video-game style warfare on their school has become "fun" and worth dying for.

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Really? Eric Harris didn't have an anger problem? To me, one of the saddest things about Columbine, is that from everything I've read on Eric, he really seemed like he wanted to be a good person. And most of the time, he was. But he had a temper that he just couldn't tame. A side that he wanted to be able to repress, but just couldn't.

I don't see Eric this way. I don't see his attack as the result of a "bad temper". Maybe he had bursts of anger sometimes, but his attack wasn't one of them, in my eyes anyway. He'd been planning NBK for over a year. He seemed to enjoy it. He loved violence. Somewhere along the line he developed a deep, deep hate towards his community which meant he no longer had the empathy to hold him back in living out his violent dream.

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Complete And Total Rage is pretty sane response to society, if I'm going to be honest.

Actually, it isn't, even if you capitalize it.

Take a good look on the internet. There are masses of teenagers who say things like, "I want to shoot up my school, but I don't want to commit suicide or go to jail." The only thing holding them back is selfish self-preservation. If murder was made legal for one day, they'd have to close down all the schools because teenagers would be slaughtering their classmates all over the place. Why are so many teenagers feeling this way? If you believe that rage is an insane response, why are so many teenagers insane?

We can argue this, but I, personally, am completely comfortable with people responding to society with the kind of rage that E/D felt.

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I've mentioned this before on this board, but I'm going to drag it up again: After E/D's attack, certain associates of E/D's came under attack. Even though they were innocent, or only mildly involved, their actual LIVES were threatened. When hurt, E/D's community responded the exact same way that E/D did -with Complete And Total Rage. E/D's community believe homicidal rage was an unacceptable response for E/D's hurt, but it's a perfectly fine response for their hurt.

No. There is a difference between premeditated murder (E/D) and an emotional response to a senseless act of violence (community). So the community did not respond with Complete And Total Rage, whatever that is.

Yes. One is premeditated murder and the other is a knee-jerk emotional response. What is the difference? In the end, they are both homicidal acts of hate. If E/D had suddenly "snapped" and committed the shooting as a knee-jerk emotional response to something, would that have made it any better than being premeditated?

During Mark Manes court sentencing, people said that he should be shot or imprisoned for life. I'm certain they meant it. I'm certain they would have killed this guy if they were legally allowed to. Manes made no profit from selling his gun to E/D as he was trying to get rid of it anyway. Eric turned 18 before the attack and would have legally been able to buy it anyway before the Big Day. Manes did a stupid thing, but he didn't deserve to be killed or imprisoned for life because of it.

You're saying that the community's response is acceptable because they were feeling "emotional" at the time? It's OK to kill or ruin someone's life when you're "emotional"?

E/D were "emotional" too. They, unfortunately, didn't have a great, big public event like Columbine to justify their "emotional" state, but that doesn't make their "emotional" state any less valid. Dylan was suicidal for years. Being in such pain that you could put a gun to your own head? Having NO reason to live? That kind of pain is incomprehensible.

If Dylan had complained about his pain, he would've likely been given anti-depressants, which is basically the same as saying that the problem is in HIS head. There is no acknowledgement that the world E/D lived in might've been a devastating, painful one. The western world does not accept that humans feel severe pain -if they do, they are "depressed", which means mentally ill. Even in Third World countries, they aren't so cruel as to believe that human suffering is a mental illness. Eric was already on anti-depressants. Why shouldn't he hate the a world that was telling him his suffering was some sort of abnormality. His pain was reduced to being a mere "chemical imbalance". How inhuman!

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You realize it's possible to feel sympathy for both E/D and the victims, right?

My feelings aren't a water tap. I can't just turn them on. E/D were attacking the "ordinary", because the "ordinary" was killing them. It's killing lots of people.

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But saying what they did was somehow justified is incredibly stupid and disturbing. Doesn't that suggest that it should be emulated? Is that the kind of world you want to live in? Kids blowing up their schools for trivial reasons?

Time for complete honesty.

"Doesn't that suggest that it should be emulated?" Yes. It does. What E/D did SHOULD be emulated. Time and time again until the damn message gets through. Teenagers commit suicide because of what you call "trivial issues". Countless others suffer their extreme pain in ashamed silence. The issues that cause someone to commit suicide are not "trivial". That kind of pain is mind-blowing. "Is this the kind of world you want to live in?" Ideally, no. But I don't want to live in the one we have now either.

The difference between you and me is that you keep saying things like "trivial reasons" and "if it only takes something so little". I don't believe E/D's reasons were "trivial" or "little". I don't believe that the extreme suffering that many teenagers experience is "trivial" in any way at all.

Once again, these are just MY opinions. It's not my intention to hurt anyone with my opinions, and I'm sorry if I have. The only way I could avoid offending people is to lie about what I feel. If my opinions have upset you, please ignore me and know that I'm in the very rare minority. My intention is only to be honest, not to cause suffering. It's my greatest wish that nobody in the world has to suffer.
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PostSubject: Re: Why did they do it?   Why did they do it? Icon_minitimeThu May 09, 2013 11:21 am

RaiseTheFist wrote:

What kind of person walks up to a complete stranger and calls them a "fag"?

A teenager. A teenager that's probably just as insecure as Eric or Dylan about fitting in. Let's not paint the world as black and white. Someone calling someone a "fag" is not pure evil. They're likely to be dealing with their own issues, and their life shouldn't be defined by whatever bullshit they were up to in high school. Wasn't your boy Eric a bit of a bully too? Did he "leave people alone"? Or was he a practicing bully himself? In any event, to answer your question, "what kind of person walks up to a complete stranger and calls them a fag?"---probably a more well adjusted person than someone who contemplates murder as a reaction to it. Just the truth. There is a lesser of two evils here, which I guess isn't obvious to you.

RaiseTheFist wrote:
This "trivial" behavior is part of something much, much larger -an appalling atmosphere of disrespect that makes it impossible for any human being to develop normally, and a complete unwillingness to discuss it.

If people can't just leave others alone -an action that requires no effort- then those people are disabled. How many teenagers come home from school and plot terrorist attacks? Not enough of them to get the message across. The message: That for some teenagers, their "lucky country" lives are so devastating that declaring video-game style warfare on their school has become "fun" and worth dying for.

"Trivial"---yes. Totally deserving of the quotation marks. Being a called a fag is trivial. I guess people react differently to these things. I'm sure I was called a fag a number of times in middle school, by people I didn't like. I'm sure the most popular kid was called a fag in middle school or high school by people that he didn't like. Most people can brush these things off, because really, who gives a shit? If Eric and Dylan had made it out of high school do you really think they'd still be upset that someone called them a fag when they were kids? No, because the social hierarchy and behavior of kids in school is ultimately meaningless, and has little effect on most people's lives.

As for your "message": that's not really a message that's worth being delivered. I mean, I'm arguing against mass murder here, it's not really that complicated. Also, I don't think Columbine was meant as a message. It was simply a selfish act of violence that satisfied Eric's apparent need to express his anger on a grand scale, and Dylan's desire to commit suicide. Sure, they said some things about wanting "followers", but they didn't see themselves as martyrs. But let's say that was the message. And let's say other kids take your advice and blow up their schools. Remind me what this accomplishes again? In the aftermath of it all, what are we supposed to take away from it? That there is something wrong with a society in which hormonal teenagers call each other fags? Good luck addressing that epidemic. I'm sure that campaign would be a rousing success. Maybe afterward the children of America could to go schools where no one even looks at each other anymore.


RaiseTheFist wrote:
Take a good look on the internet. There are masses of teenagers who say things like, "I want to shoot up my school, but I don't want to commit suicide or go to jail." The only thing holding them back is selfish self-preservation. If murder was made legal for one day, they'd have to close down all the schools because teenagers would be slaughtering their classmates all over the place. Why are so many teenagers feeling this way? If you believe that rage is an insane response, why are so many teenagers insane?

We can argue this, but I, personally, am completely comfortable with people responding to society with the kind of rage that E/D felt.

This is just nuts. Do you really think that teenagers don't murder each other simply because it's illegal? And let me get this straight: the only thing that holds people back is "selfish" self-preservation? I'm glad you surveyed the comment sections of E/D youtube vids where all the budding school shooters hang out (any hot young prospects to keep an eye on?), but these people do not represent a majority and are barely even a tiny minority of American teenagers.


RaiseTheFist wrote:
Yes. One is premeditated murder and the other is a knee-jerk emotional response. What is the difference? In the end, they are both homicidal acts of hate. If E/D had suddenly "snapped" and committed the shooting as a knee-jerk emotional response to something, would that have made it any better than being premeditated?

You're saying that the community's response is acceptable because they were feeling "emotional" at the time? It's OK to kill or ruin someone's life when you're "emotional"?

The difference? Well, on one side you have a dozen dead kids, and the other a bunch of screaming lunatics. I'm not really familiar with the specific things you're referring to though. I don't think anyone died as a result of being affiliated with E/D, and if you want to blame someone for their lives being ruined, look no further than E/D themselves. Didn't Chris Morris say he blamed E/D alone for ruining his life?

RaiseTheFist wrote:
If Dylan had complained about his pain, he would've likely been given anti-depressants, which is basically the same as saying that the problem is in HIS head. There is no acknowledgement that the world E/D lived in might've been a devastating, painful one. The western world does not accept that humans feel severe pain -if they do, they are "depressed", which means mentally ill. Even in Third World countries, they aren't so cruel as to believe that human suffering is a mental illness. Eric was already on anti-depressants. Why shouldn't he hate the a world that was telling him his suffering was some sort of abnormality. His pain was reduced to being a mere "chemical imbalance". How inhuman!

There is a difference between human suffering and depression. Completely different things. I know what it's like to be sad or disappointed, and I know what it's like to be depressed. Trust me on this one. Depression IS a result of chemical inbalance. This is just science. People with major depression can barely function, and are technically "mentally ill". There is no other way to put it. I know Dylan was suffering. He was suicidal. But you're wrong if you don't think brain chemistry played any part in what they did. I'm not one to just write off Eric as a psychopath. I think what's so interesting about Columbine is that E/D were at least relatively normal kids, compared to the VT and Lanza's of the world. But Eric's mental health wasn't just a result of his community, not a chance. He had real issues that weren't merely an extension of his life as a student and member of the community. Dylan was depressed. Maybe anti-depressants could have helped him. You don't know..
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PostSubject: Re: Why did they do it?   Why did they do it? Icon_minitimeThu May 09, 2013 5:30 pm

*slowly backs out of thread*

*walks back in*

Quote :
I'm not trying to argue that E/D's actions were moral, but I do believe there is something deeply wrong with the world, and E/D's response to this world was acceptable.

You say that you aren't arguing that what E/D did was moral, but you are arguing that what they did was acceptable. I sense a contradiction here.
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PostSubject: Re: Why did they do it?   Why did they do it? Icon_minitimeThu May 09, 2013 10:31 pm

pallota39 wrote:
RaiseTheFist wrote:

What kind of person walks up to a complete stranger and calls them a "fag"?

A teenager. A teenager that's probably just as insecure as Eric or Dylan about fitting in. Let's not paint the world as black and white. Someone calling someone a "fag" is not pure evil. They're likely to be dealing with their own issues, and their life shouldn't be defined by whatever bullshit they were up to in high school. Wasn't your boy Eric a bit of a bully too? Did he "leave people alone"? Or was he a practicing bully himself? In any event, to answer your question, "what kind of person walks up to a complete stranger and calls them a fag?"---probably a more well adjusted person than someone who contemplates murder as a reaction to it. Just the truth. There is a lesser of two evils here, which I guess isn't obvious to you.

I get it. You believe that calling someone a fag (or any other degrading treatment) is an acceptable way of dealing with teenage insecurity. But contemplating mass murder, isn't.

I'm not entirely sure where you draw the line. Is throwing glass bottles at someone also an acceptable thing for insecure teenagers to do to each other? Is public humiliation also acceptable? What about shoving or punching? (All these things happened to E/D, and many other teenagers every day). How much disrespect is acceptable, because, in your eyes, teenagers-will-be-teenagers?

You appear to excuse these behaviors because YOU were subjected to some degrading treatment in high school, and it didn't bother YOU much.

I'm certain that there's some things make you very angry which I would consider very trivial. Yes, people are effected by different things. Some teenagers are effected very badly by these so-called trivial things, and you're answer to them is: It didn't bother YOU, so it shouldn't bother them.

You think murder is wrong because you value human LIFE. But you don't seem to value human DIGNITY.

Yep. Eric was a bully too. I've never said he was a saint. He was a complete asshole plenty of times. I'm never said I was justifying his total life. I'm justifying his choice to ATTACK.

When someone calls another person a fag, in front of both his and their friends, it's an act of public degradation. The name-caller is tempting the other person to do something, knowing they can't because they're likely not physically strong enough to. The name-caller isn't just calling the other teenager a fag, he's also calling him weak, and asserting that this weakness means the other teenager is inferior. The name-caller is making a public statement of the other teenagers inferiority. And the adults around them, like you, really couldn't give a flying fuck.

The fag teenager then feels anger. Adults, like you, tell him that because it wouldn't bother YOU, it shouldn't bother him. But it DOES bother him. And now, the adults around him are basically telling him that there's something wrong with him because it's bothering him. The fag teenager, now, has been publicly declared inferior by his peers and declared abnormal by the adults around him. And the by-standers (other peers, adults, community) shrug their shoulders and say that this is just part of life, basically declaring their support for the way things are.

The fag teenager then has a choice. He can accept that he is inferior and abnormal, as others are telling him. Or he can believe that others are wrong, meaning they are inferior to him. Since the entire community -and the rest of the country because they support the community- have sided against the teenager, this is no longer just a high school issue. This teenager will go on to college, and then the work place, where neither he or his community are likely to change. He sees no future in this world.

An attack on your dignity such as publicly being called a fag doesn't bother YOU. But it bothers some teenagers. They didn't ask for it to bother them, and if they could shrug it off like you, they would. It simply hurts them, and YOU couldn't care less because it wouldn't hurt YOU.

By the same logic that you're using, I could argue that since mass murder doesn't bother ME it shouldn't bother you. I imagine that you would say that mass murder bothers the majority of people, so it should bother me too. If you argue things that way, then what you're saying is that the world should accommodate the majority and FUCK the people on the fringes. Well, E/D, who were on the fringes, say FUCK YOU back.

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Also, I don't think Columbine was meant as a message. It was simply a selfish act of violence that satisfied Eric's apparent need to express his anger on a grand scale, and Dylan's desire to commit suicide.

Dylan didn't just want to commit suicide. He was so extremely nihilistic that mass murder wasn't a big deal to him. Eric was comfortable expressing his anger on a grand scale because he no longer felt any empathy towards the world. They both claimed they wanted to kickstart a "revolution". How much E/D understood their own words is open to debate, of course. But in my opinion, Columbine was a terrorist act. The message is in the facts: E/D were normal teenagers who came to believe that their suicidal wargames were preferable to living in this kind of world.

Some of the later school shooters have made it very clear that the treatment they received at school and in their community is the reason they are going on a rampage. Their message has been direct and unmistakable. And your response to them seems to be: It wouldn't have bothered YOU, so it shouldn't have bothered them. There's something wrong with them because they're too sensitive and too quick to anger.

Don't worry, these teenagers are already aware that you think there's something wrong with them. That's why they attack.

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In the aftermath of it all, what are we supposed to take away from it? That there is something wrong with a society in which hormonal teenagers call each other fags? Good luck addressing that epidemic. I'm sure that campaign would be a rousing success. Maybe afterward the children of America could to go schools where no one even looks at each other anymore.

Teenagers calling each other fags (or chucking bottles, or shoving each other, or whatever else) isn't just an expression of frustration or the result of internal disagreements with each other. If that was the case it would be just human nature and unavoidable. People are going to disagree and not like each other, and fights are going to happen. That's not a big deal.

But most times, calling someone a fag (or whatever other behavior) is a direct attempt to make a public assertion that the other teenager is inferior. The name-caller is getting direct enjoyment from knowing that the other teen isn't strong enough to fight back. He isn't attacking the other teen in anger or frustration, he's doing it for fun. The fun is coming directly from the other person's suffering, and that's sadistic and unnecessary.

Would that name-caller (and his friends) take his sadism further if it were legally allowed? I'd bet on it.

Quote :
This is just nuts. Do you really think that teenagers don't murder each other simply because it's illegal? And let me get this straight: the only thing that holds people back is "selfish" self-preservation?

Yep. That about sums it up.

Don't you believe that life in jail or death are major deterrents to murder? Do you honestly believe that humans are so good-hearted that they show restraint out of the goodness of their hearts?

Quote :
I'm glad you surveyed the comment sections of E/D youtube vids where all the budding school shooters hang out (any hot young prospects to keep an eye on?), but these people do not represent a majority and are barely even a tiny minority of American teenagers.

LOL. I'm not sure if you meant this as a bit of humor, but I took it that way, and it lightened my mood ;) By now, you should know that I'm not really the kind of person to rat out any "hot prospects". In fact, I'd probably skip lunch for a day and send them a donation to help cover the costs of their Plot Of Total Doom. After the attack, I might even send their family a box of chocolates.

Quote :
The difference? Well, on one side you have a dozen dead kids, and the other a bunch of screaming lunatics. I'm not really familiar with the specific things you're referring to though. I don't think anyone died as a result of being affiliated with E/D, and if you want to blame someone for their lives being ruined, look no further than E/D themselves. Didn't Chris Morris say he blamed E/D alone for ruining his life?

No. Nobody died as a result of being associated with E/D. But there's no doubt in my mind that the angry mob would have killed people if they were legally allowed to.

Quote :
There is a difference between human suffering and depression. Completely different things. I know what it's like to be sad or disappointed, and I know what it's like to be depressed. Trust me on this one. Depression IS a result of chemical inbalance. This is just science.

Completely disagree with you there. And, despite your assertion, the science hasn't decided either. If depression is genuinely a chemical imbalance, it would be a PHYSICAL illness.

If a chemical imbalance was the cause, the medical community wouldn't stigmatize a person with the label of being mentally ill. They would put depression alongside all the other PHYSICAL medical conditions like hormone imbalances, low blood chemical readings, etc.

The reason the medical community doesn't classify depression as a physical illness is because human beings who are suffering have the same low levels of neurotransmitters as "depressed" people. Severe human suffering and "depression" are indistinguishable in brain chemistry. It's impossible to tell which came first.

If Dylan had told people about his suffering, he would have been treated with anti-depressants, not because the medical community have proven that a chemical imbalance is the cause, but because it's too antagonistic to suggest that Dylan may have actually had a reason to be in suffering.

The fact that Dylan may have had a genuine reason to be suffering would never have been entertained. And that is very inhuman.

Once again, just MY opinions. If I sounded grumpy, that wasn't the intention. I really don't mind that you disagree with me. In one of your other posts you called me "stupid and disturbing". I can live with that. Very Happy

Enjoy your day.
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PostSubject: Re: Why did they do it?   Why did they do it? Icon_minitimeThu May 09, 2013 10:41 pm

sergeant hartman wrote:
*slowly backs out of thread*

*walks back in*

Quote :
I'm not trying to argue that E/D's actions were moral, but I do believe there is something deeply wrong with the world, and E/D's response to this world was acceptable.

You say that you aren't arguing that what E/D did was moral, but you are arguing that what they did was acceptable. I sense a contradiction here.

LOL. I was a bit surprised when I initially read that you'd "backed out" of this thread. Since I KNOW you agree with pallota39, and would probably love to watch him kick the shit out of me. Very Happy

To clear up my contraction: I don't believe there were ANY moral choices available to E/D. I think they chose one of the better options available to them, so it's personally acceptable to me.
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PostSubject: Re: Why did they do it?   Why did they do it? Icon_minitimeFri May 10, 2013 1:07 am

RaiseTheFist wrote:

I get it. You believe that calling someone a fag (or any other degrading treatment) is an acceptable way of dealing with teenage insecurity. But contemplating mass murder, isn't.

I'm not entirely sure where you draw the line. Is throwing glass bottles at someone also an acceptable thing for insecure teenagers to do to each other? Is public humiliation also acceptable? What about shoving or punching? (All these things happened to E/D, and many other teenagers every day). How much disrespect is acceptable, because, in your eyes, teenagers-will-be-teenagers?

Not necessarily acceptable, but certainly less harmful than your suggested response to it. As for your other question, I don't know. I don't have a Wheel of Disrespect by which I measure how justified mass murder is according to certain situations. I know school can be brutal for some kids. But you have this idea that killing people is somehow a solution to this problem. Do you think there has been a change in the way kids treat each other in schools across America because of Columbine, VT, Sandy Hook, etc? Because I don't. So what good is another kid shooting up his school going to do? How many more innocent bystanders and evil jocks is it going to take before we live in the RaiseTheFist utopia where kids are all nice to each other and we can throw away our Anarchist Cookbooks?

I appreciate the response, but I think I'm going to bow out of this conversation. At least in the form of these long, time consuming replies. All I wanted to do was say that murder is wrong (scandalous I know). But hey, if you hate life and want to die, why not take a bunch of people with you? Because those kids definitely deserved it.

-Flowers and chocolates, xoxo.

Also, good luck with your children's book, The Fag and His Community.
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PostSubject: Re: Why did they do it?   Why did they do it? Icon_minitimeFri May 10, 2013 3:10 am

Can we call a truce with a bucket of KFC, my treat?
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PostSubject: Re: Why did they do it?   Why did they do it? Icon_minitimeFri May 10, 2013 5:11 am

K.F.C.,
Quote :
Can we call a truce with a bucket of KFC, my treat?

I fucking love KFC!

Hang on... wait a minute. Why are you being so generous all of a sudden? Is is poisoned or something? I'm not sure I trust you.

pallota39,
Thanks for the discussion. Don't stop posting on this board because of me. I'm not kidding when I say the people on this board are great. They honestly are trying to understand their feelings towards Columbine and hope to make the world a better place. They're definitely not "worshipers" in any sense of the word.

Quote :
I know school can be brutal for some kids. But you have this idea that killing people is somehow a solution to this problem. Do you think there has been a change in the way kids treat each other in schools across America because of Columbine, VT, Sandy Hook, etc? Because I don't.

Just to clarify, I don't consider ALL school shootings, by default, to be acceptable terrorist acts.

I have much less sympathy for school shooters that don't commit suicide after they've "done their duty". I haven't decided yet what I think about V-Tech. I definitely DON'T support Sandy Hook and think that Lanza was trying to emulate Dunblane (get the school wiped off the map) more than he was trying to emulate Columbine. Lanza's choice of victim gets the thumbs-down in my opinion.

Yes. I do think that killing people is the only way left to make a point that NEEDS to be made. I'm not happy that I can't think of a another solution, but I honestly can't. Sorry. I also think that Columbine has been the most successful attempt at getting this message across so far and that's why the memory of E/D refuses to die.

Quote :
How many more innocent bystanders and evil jocks is it going to take before we live in the RaiseTheFist utopia where kids are all nice to each other and we can throw away our Anarchist Cookbooks?

Stop! Don't use the Anarchist Cookbook! That hunk of junk isn't worth the cost of your printing paper. E/D used it as a guide for their propane bombs and we all know how "successful" those were. Seriously folks, if you're lurking on this forum with homicidal thoughts, just say "no" to the Anarchist Cookbook.

Quote :
-Flowers and chocolates, xoxo.

LOL. It's nice to see you still have a sense of humor. But seriously, is that "xoxo" thing meant to represent a kiss? Did you just KISS me? I appreciate the the truce, but you don't have to take things THAT far.


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PostSubject: Re: Why did they do it?   Why did they do it? Icon_minitimeFri May 10, 2013 11:55 am

RaiseTheFist wrote:
K.F.C.,
Quote :
Can we call a truce with a bucket of KFC, my treat?

I fucking love KFC!

Hang on... wait a minute. Why are you being so generous all of a sudden? Is is poisoned or something? I'm not sure I trust you.

Nope, not at all. That is Scypek that I won't share my KFC with and that is because he is a rude jerk who picks on me and tries to STEAL my chicken.
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PostSubject: Re: Why did they do it?   Why did they do it? Icon_minitimeFri May 10, 2013 12:22 pm

Here's my solution for anyone who is thinking about committing a mass murder.

Here it is.


It's a brilliant solution.


It's coming!

Read below!















Don't fucking do it.
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PostSubject: Re: Why did they do it?   Why did they do it? Icon_minitimeFri May 10, 2013 12:39 pm

sergeant hartman wrote:
Here's my solution for anyone who is thinking about committing a mass murder.

Here it is.


It's a brilliant solution.


It's coming!

Read below!















Don't fucking do it.

Lol.

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Undyne




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PostSubject: Re: Why did they do it?   Why did they do it? Icon_minitimeFri May 10, 2013 1:11 pm

Seriously, I can't believe we're having this conversation.

If terrorism is the only solution that you see to correct something... then there isn't one.

Quote :
I don't believe there were ANY moral choices available to E/D

For the love of fuck. The morally correct choice was to not commit the massacre.

You ARE saying that Eric and Dylan were morally justified by saying that what they did was acceptable; that is, unless you're using some other definition of the word acceptable that I'm not aware of.
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RaiseTheFist




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PostSubject: Re: Why did they do it?   Why did they do it? Icon_minitimeFri May 10, 2013 4:55 pm

K.F.C. wrote:
RaiseTheFist wrote:
K.F.C.,
Quote :
Can we call a truce with a bucket of KFC, my treat?

I fucking love KFC!

Hang on... wait a minute. Why are you being so generous all of a sudden? Is is poisoned or something? I'm not sure I trust you.

Nope, not at all. That is Scypek that I won't share my KFC with and that is because he is a rude jerk who picks on me and tries to STEAL my chicken.

This isn't the first time I've seen you around this forum trying to offer up your KFC. I'm sure you have suspicious motives... Very Happy

Anyhow, since I really DO love KFC, I'm going to take you up on your offer, and hope for the best.

But if I get diarrhea from your second-hand chicken, I'm going to hunt you down and force-feed you 10,000 McDonalds Quarter Pounders.
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PostSubject: Re: Why did they do it?   Why did they do it? Icon_minitimeFri May 10, 2013 5:16 pm

RaiseTheFist wrote:
K.F.C. wrote:
RaiseTheFist wrote:
K.F.C.,
Quote :
Can we call a truce with a bucket of KFC, my treat?

I fucking love KFC!

Hang on... wait a minute. Why are you being so generous all of a sudden? Is is poisoned or something? I'm not sure I trust you.

Nope, not at all. That is Scypek that I won't share my KFC with and that is because he is a rude jerk who picks on me and tries to STEAL my chicken.

This isn't the first time I've seen you around this forum trying to offer up your KFC. I'm sure you have suspicious motives... Very Happy

Anyhow, since I really DO love KFC, I'm going to take you up on your offer, and hope for the best.

But if I get diarrhea from your second-hand chicken, I'm going to hunt you down and force-feed you 10,000 McDonalds Quarter Pounders.

Hell no, I will never eat any McFuckingDonald's. And it won't be second hand, we'll go right over to KFC and get it fresh.
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RaiseTheFist




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PostSubject: Re: Why did they do it?   Why did they do it? Icon_minitimeFri May 10, 2013 5:34 pm

sergeant hartman,
Quote :
Don't fucking do it.

In other words... Do Nothing.

Quote :
If terrorism is the only solution that you see to correct something... then there isn't one.

In other words... Leave things the way they are.

Quote :
Seriously, I can't believe we're having this conversation.

Amazing isn't it? Some teenagers are suffering to the point where life isn't worth living. Who could ever imagine that they might want to attack the source of that suffering?

Look, everyone agrees with you. Be happy. Very Happy I've made my point of view pretty clear, but only for the sake of honesty.

I've watched the Mauser tribute video (thanks again for posting the link). But honestly, to me, it's just a collection of home movies of some child/teenager. I already know that REAL human beings died at Columbine, and I already know what real human beings look like.

Once again, I'm sorry if I've upset anyone. It doesn't make me happy if I have.
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areyoulistening




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PostSubject: Re: Why did they do it?   Why did they do it? Icon_minitimeFri May 10, 2013 5:43 pm

RaiseTheFist wrote:


Amazing isn't it? Some teenagers are suffering to the point where life isn't worth living. Who could ever imagine that they might want to attack the source of that suffering

I would agree with you, if they actually had killed people who had caused them suffering. How many of the people that were hurt or killed in the attack that day caused Eric or Dylan any grief? They let Evan Todd go for crying out loud. If they wanted to attack the source they had plenty of opportunity to do so that day and they didn't. They killed easy targets just because they could. Most of the people interviewed in the library where most of the killing took place, didn't even know who they were.

Killing the people that give you grief and make your life hell is one thing, but killing people who don't even know you isn't retaliation, it's not proving a point, it's cold blooded
murder.

I mean you are entitled to your opinion and I don't mean to seem rude or judgmental of you or anything. But you have your opinions and I have mine Laughing

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Undyne




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PostSubject: Re: Why did they do it?   Why did they do it? Icon_minitimeFri May 10, 2013 7:00 pm

RaiseTheFist wrote:
sergeant hartman,
Quote :
Don't fucking do it.

In other words... Do Nothing.

Quote :
If terrorism is the only solution that you see to correct something... then there isn't one.

In other words... Leave things the way they are.

Quote :
Seriously, I can't believe we're having this conversation.

Amazing isn't it? Some teenagers are suffering to the point where life isn't worth living. Who could ever imagine that they might want to attack the source of that suffering?

Look, everyone agrees with you. Be happy. Very Happy I've made my point of view pretty clear, but only for the sake of honesty.

I've watched the Mauser tribute video (thanks again for posting the link). But honestly, to me, it's just a collection of home movies of some child/teenager. I already know that REAL human beings died at Columbine, and I already know what real human beings look like.

Once again, I'm sorry if I've upset anyone. It doesn't make me happy if I have.

I think I've made it clear that I believe that, yes, it is preferable for a person to do nothing than to commit an act of terrorism to get what they want. Terrorism bad. Bullying bad. Two wrongs don't make a right. There you go.

Also, I think that Phoebe Prince did more to the bullying cause than Dumb and Dumber did.....
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RaiseTheFist




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PostSubject: Re: Why did they do it?   Why did they do it? Icon_minitimeFri May 10, 2013 7:19 pm

K.F.C. wrote:
RaiseTheFist wrote:
K.F.C. wrote:
RaiseTheFist wrote:
K.F.C.,
Quote :
Can we call a truce with a bucket of KFC, my treat?

I fucking love KFC!

Hang on... wait a minute. Why are you being so generous all of a sudden? Is is poisoned or something? I'm not sure I trust you.

Nope, not at all. That is Scypek that I won't share my KFC with and that is because he is a rude jerk who picks on me and tries to STEAL my chicken.

This isn't the first time I've seen you around this forum trying to offer up your KFC. I'm sure you have suspicious motives... Very Happy

Anyhow, since I really DO love KFC, I'm going to take you up on your offer, and hope for the best.

But if I get diarrhea from your second-hand chicken, I'm going to hunt you down and force-feed you 10,000 McDonalds Quarter Pounders.

Hell no, I will never eat any McFuckingDonald's. And it won't be second hand, we'll go right over to KFC and get it fresh.

You'd share your chicken with a person who advocates terrorism? What kind of sicko are you?

Either way, you should be aware that I like Sweet & Sour sauce with my chicken, and I'll only become more of an asshole if they don't have any in stock.
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RaiseTheFist




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PostSubject: Re: Why did they do it?   Why did they do it? Icon_minitimeFri May 10, 2013 7:26 pm

areyoulistening wrote:
RaiseTheFist wrote:


Amazing isn't it? Some teenagers are suffering to the point where life isn't worth living. Who could ever imagine that they might want to attack the source of that suffering

I would agree with you, if they actually had killed people who had caused them suffering. How many of the people that were hurt or killed in the attack that day caused Eric or Dylan any grief? They let Evan Todd go for crying out loud. If they wanted to attack the source they had plenty of opportunity to do so that day and they didn't. They killed easy targets just because they could. Most of the people interviewed in the library where most of the killing took place, didn't even know who they were.

Killing the people that give you grief and make your life hell is one thing, but killing people who don't even know you isn't retaliation, it's not proving a point, it's cold blooded
murder.

I mean you are entitled to your opinion and I don't mean to seem rude or judgmental of you or anything. But you have your opinions and I have mine Laughing

I completely accept your opinions, and I'm glad that you're using your brain and thinking for yourself. I really don't feel any hostility towards people who disagree with me, so please don't think that. Very Happy

I believe that E/D's attack wasn't an attack against any individuals. It was an attack on the school and everything it stood for.

I agree with Mr. KFC Man (though I'm still suspicious of his motives). Let's all just go and have some chicken.

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RaiseTheFist




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PostSubject: Re: Why did they do it?   Why did they do it? Icon_minitimeFri May 10, 2013 7:31 pm

sergeant hartman,
Quote :
I think I've made it clear that I believe that, yes, it is preferable for a person to do nothing than to commit an act of terrorism to get what they want. Terrorism bad. Bullying bad. Two wrongs don't make a right. There you go.

Also, I think that Phoebe Prince did more to the bullying cause than Dumb and Dumber did.....

I'd never even heard of Phoebe Prince until you mentioned her, so I'm not sure that she achieved more than Everyone-In-The-World-Knows-Who.

Also, I'm really, really not trying to start an argument... I'm genuinely curious... Do you believe that terrorism is never justified?

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PostSubject: Re: Why did they do it?   Why did they do it? Icon_minitimeFri May 10, 2013 7:37 pm

areyoulistening wrote:
RaiseTheFist wrote:


Amazing isn't it? Some teenagers are suffering to the point where life isn't worth living. Who could ever imagine that they might want to attack the source of that suffering

I would agree with you, if they actually had killed people who had caused them suffering. How many of the people that were hurt or killed in the attack that day caused Eric or Dylan any grief? They let Evan Todd go for crying out loud. If they wanted to attack the source they had plenty of opportunity to do so that day and they didn't. They killed easy targets just because they could. Most of the people interviewed in the library where most of the killing took place, didn't even know who they were.

Killing the people that give you grief and make your life hell is one thing, but killing people who don't even know you isn't retaliation, it's not proving a point, it's cold blooded
murder.

I mean you are entitled to your opinion and I don't mean to seem rude or judgmental of you or anything. But you have your opinions and I have mine Laughing

I've always thought it was strange that Dylan decided to spare Evan's life considering that he was a jock and bully. But perhaps Dylan did this because he wanted to cause physciological turmoil on him for years to come like some people have suggested which is huge revenge as well.
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Undyne




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PostSubject: Re: Why did they do it?   Why did they do it? Icon_minitimeFri May 10, 2013 7:43 pm

RaiseTheFist wrote:
Do you believe that terrorism is never justified?

I believe that it is unacceptable for an individual or group to use terrorism in order to stop hate.
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RaiseTheFist




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PostSubject: Re: Why did they do it?   Why did they do it? Icon_minitimeFri May 10, 2013 7:50 pm

CatherineM813,
Quote :
I've always thought it was strange that Dylan decided to spare Evan's life considering that he was a jock and bully. But perhaps Dylan did this because he wanted to cause physciological turmoil on him for years to come like some people have suggested which is huge revenge as well.

Since you already know I'm an asshole, it's probably not going to do any more damage to give my honest opinion on the whole Evan Todd thing:

Dylan deserves a kick up the ass for the piss-poor way he handled Evan Todd. He gets the complete thumbs-down from me. WTF was he thinking? *Facepalm* Why did E/D bother bringing those knives along if they weren't going to use them? Todd would have made a great stabbing victim.

If Dylan was inclined to let Todd live, he should have at least taken out his shotgun and blown off the guys arms and legs first.
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areyoulistening




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PostSubject: Re: Why did they do it?   Why did they do it? Icon_minitimeFri May 10, 2013 7:54 pm

RaiseTheFist wrote:
areyoulistening wrote:
RaiseTheFist wrote:


Amazing isn't it? Some teenagers are suffering to the point where life isn't worth living. Who could ever imagine that they might want to attack the source of that suffering

I would agree with you, if they actually had killed people who had caused them suffering. How many of the people that were hurt or killed in the attack that day caused Eric or Dylan any grief? They let Evan Todd go for crying out loud. If they wanted to attack the source they had plenty of opportunity to do so that day and they didn't. They killed easy targets just because they could. Most of the people interviewed in the library where most of the killing took place, didn't even know who they were.

Killing the people that give you grief and make your life hell is one thing, but killing people who don't even know you isn't retaliation, it's not proving a point, it's cold blooded
murder.

I mean you are entitled to your opinion and I don't mean to seem rude or judgmental of you or anything. But you have your opinions and I have mine Laughing

I completely accept your opinions, and I'm glad that you're using your brain and thinking for yourself. I really don't feel any hostility towards people who disagree with me, so please don't think that. Very Happy

I believe that E/D's attack wasn't an attack against any individuals. It was an attack on the school and everything it stood for.

I agree with Mr. KFC Man (though I'm still suspicious of his motives). Let's all just go and have some chicken.


I just had to make sure that you understood. A lot of people disagree with your views and I didn't want to make you feel as if you were being "ganged up" on.

Chicken sounds like a great idea. I agree the motives seem suspicious, but hey death by chicken is not a bad way to go.

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PostSubject: Re: Why did they do it?   Why did they do it? Icon_minitimeFri May 10, 2013 8:38 pm

RaiseTheFist wrote:

Since you already know I'm an asshole, it's probably not going to do any more damage to give my honest opinion on the whole Evan Todd thing:

Dylan deserves a kick up the ass for the piss-poor way he handled Evan Todd. He gets the complete thumbs-down from me. WTF was he thinking? *Facepalm* Why did E/D bother bringing those knives along if they weren't going to use them? Todd would have made a great stabbing victim.

If Dylan was inclined to let Todd live, he should have at least taken out his shotgun and blown off the guys arms and legs first.

I understand that this is your opinion, but statements like this one will offend pretty much anyone on this forum who isn't a fan and I don't think that most of the members would appreciate you wishing death upon other people. I mean, this post was a bit much, don't you think?

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PostSubject: Re: Why did they do it?   Why did they do it? Icon_minitimeFri May 10, 2013 11:02 pm

RaiseTheFist wrote:
CatherineM813,
Quote :
I've always thought it was strange that Dylan decided to spare Evan's life considering that he was a jock and bully. But perhaps Dylan did this because he wanted to cause physciological turmoil on him for years to come like some people have suggested which is huge revenge as well.

Since you already know I'm an asshole, it's probably not going to do any more damage to give my honest opinion on the whole Evan Todd thing:

Dylan deserves a kick up the ass for the piss-poor way he handled Evan Todd. He gets the complete thumbs-down from me. WTF was he thinking? *Facepalm* Why did E/D bother bringing those knives along if they weren't going to use them? Todd would have made a great stabbing victim.

If Dylan was inclined to let Todd live, he should have at least taken out his shotgun and blown off the guys arms and legs first.

If Eric hadn't damaged his nose and was paying attention to Dylan when he said you can kill him if you want I definitely think Eric would have killed Evan. And I'm not sure why they never made an attempt to use their knives. Especially Dylan because knives were his thing and bombs were Eric's thing.


Last edited by CatherineM813 on Sat May 11, 2013 8:16 am; edited 1 time in total
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RaiseTheFist




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PostSubject: Re: Why did they do it?   Why did they do it? Icon_minitimeSat May 11, 2013 12:23 am

Jenn wrote:
RaiseTheFist wrote:

Since you already know I'm an asshole, it's probably not going to do any more damage to give my honest opinion on the whole Evan Todd thing:

Dylan deserves a kick up the ass for the piss-poor way he handled Evan Todd. He gets the complete thumbs-down from me. WTF was he thinking? *Facepalm* Why did E/D bother bringing those knives along if they weren't going to use them? Todd would have made a great stabbing victim.

If Dylan was inclined to let Todd live, he should have at least taken out his shotgun and blown off the guys arms and legs first.

I understand that this is your opinion, but statements like this one will offend pretty much anyone on this forum who isn't a fan and I don't think that most of the members would appreciate you wishing death upon other people. I mean, this post was a bit much, don't you think?

I understand. This is your forum and your rules. I'll tone it down. Just let me know if something is too offensive and I won't do it again. Very Happy

Complete apologies to everyone who got offended.

Since, Mr. KFC Man hasn't bought me the chicken he promised, I'm going to go and get some of my own. Have a good day.
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PostSubject: Re: Why did they do it?   Why did they do it? Icon_minitimeFri May 24, 2013 10:03 pm

I completely agree with Guilty by Association on why they did it. But I also think one of the reasons was they were filled with so much pain and misery and wanted as many people to share their misery. Misery loves company.
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PostSubject: Re: Why did they do it?   Why did they do it? Icon_minitimeSat May 25, 2013 2:04 pm

CatherineM813 wrote:
RaiseTheFist wrote:
CatherineM813,
Quote :
I've always thought it was strange that Dylan decided to spare Evan's life considering that he was a jock and bully. But perhaps Dylan did this because he wanted to cause physciological turmoil on him for years to come like some people have suggested which is huge revenge as well.

Since you already know I'm an asshole, it's probably not going to do any more damage to give my honest opinion on the whole Evan Todd thing:

Dylan deserves a kick up the ass for the piss-poor way he handled Evan Todd. He gets the complete thumbs-down from me. WTF was he thinking? *Facepalm* Why did E/D bother bringing those knives along if they weren't going to use them? Todd would have made a great stabbing victim.

If Dylan was inclined to let Todd live, he should have at least taken out his shotgun and blown off the guys arms and legs first.

If Eric hadn't damaged his nose and was paying attention to Dylan when he said you can kill him if you want I definitely think Eric would have killed Evan. And I'm not sure why they never made an attempt to use their knives. Especially Dylan because knives were his thing and bombs were Eric's thing.

Does anybody know how many people they shot after Eric broke his nose? This point has been brought up before and I think it holds merit.
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PostSubject: Re: Why did they do it?   Why did they do it? Icon_minitimeSat May 25, 2013 3:11 pm

MarmaladeSkies wrote:
Does anybody know how many people they shot after Eric broke his nose? This point has been brought up before and I think it holds merit.

Eric breaking his nose during the attack is something I've always questioned, i know there was damage to his nose as reported by numerous witness' and his autopsy does detail significant damage to his face (of course) I just always questioned if he actually did break his nose during the attack for a fact. I think it's something that has been discussed before. I was actually going to start a topic on it as there are many accounts reporting him hitting himself in the face. I just wanted to address this as many people have mentioned him definitely breaking his nose during the massacre. If anyone can direct me to any information that says he did break his nose as a fact when he hit himself in the face i'd be grateful. I just thought there could be a possibility he did not actually break it despite this been a very likely possibility.

Evan Todd: (Pg 0161-0179) Todd reported that Eric Harris looked as though he had a “broken nose.” When asked to elaborate, Evan Todd stated it appeared as though Eric Harris’ nose was pushed off to the side slightly and he had a noticeable amount of blood smeared around his nose and mouth, down to the chin area. He also mentioned Harris was injured, appeared dizzy and was having to catch his balance. Evan Todd also mentioned Harris' nose was pushed off to the side slightly.

Bree Pasquale: Pg (519 - 536) Bree Pasquale notices blood flowing from both Erics' nostrils. She also believed the comment "I hit myself in the face" made by Eric was intended for Dylan.

Joshua Lapp - Pg (480 - 481) Lapp heard “who he believed to be Eric Harris state “Oh I hit myself." He recalled a gunman with blood on his face and around his mouth.

Austin Eubanks - Pg (27) Saw Eric with “what appeared to be quite a bit of blood around his mouth under his nose”

Steven Greenwood - Pg (354 - 359) “...He also stated Harris’ nose was bleeding” - “He stated at one point when he saw Harris, Harris had a bloody nose”

Heidi Johnson - Pg (437 - 446) ”...He shot himself in the nose. Ms. Johnson overheard him say to the other gunman “Oh man, I shot my nose” - “..She stated she then heard Harris mention he’d shot himself in the nose. She heard him laughing. She then heard Klebold ask him “Why’d you do that?” Johnson then saw Harris was bleeding from his nose

Sorry to go off topic but to answer the question Eric reportedly injured his nose after he shot Cassie Bernall (Diagram 56). After this blood is noticed coming from his nose.
After this the people they shot at were.
Klebold shoots Ireland
Harris shoots Shoels
Klebold shoots Ketcher
Klebold shoots Kintgen
Klebold shoots Schnurr and Kreutz
Klebold shoots Townsend
Harris shoots Nowlen and Tomlin
Klebold shoots Tomlin
Harris shoots Fleming, Townsend, Park and Kruetz
Harris shoots Mauser
Klebold / Harris shoot Depooter, Doyle and Eubanks

There was also a lot of shooting at inanimate objects in this time frame also. I got this information from here:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
It's really useful for a quick way to reference the time line of events.
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