From suicide to homicide.

Eric writes that he wants to kill people. Dylan writes that he wants to kill himself. Why, Dylan, having finally guns don't kill himself and goes to the "NBK" with Eric? Maybe boys are so affect each other that Eric inspires Dylan to murder, but Dylan inspires Eric to commit suicide?

But Dylan also wrote about killing. He wrote about a desire to go on a killing spree against whoever he wanted long before he and Eric started officially planning for it. He also mentioned that he wouldn't mind killing one of his friends' girlfriends (I think everyone pretty much figured he was referring to Zach's girlfriend Devon, but the names were all redacted). Its speculated that he idolized Mickey from Natural Born Killers since he appeared to be emulating him and they named their plan after the movie.

I think Dylan also had a desire to kill, even if it wasn't as extreme as Eric's. I don't believe that Dylan's sole purpose was strictly suicide or that it was Eric's influence that convinced him to participate in murder. I feel that in his own way he wanted to be seen as some badass Tarantino character just as Eric wanted to be seen as a badass Doom character.

As far as Eric goes, I think he also battled with suicidal thoughts here and there, but maybe was never as serious about it as Dylan was.  I think Eric was aware that he was more than likely going to die that day, but he referenced that he'd be taken out by the cops. I don't think it was Dylan's influence that convinced him to commit suicide, I think it was more of a "last resort" situation.  I imagine walking back into the room where most of the killing took place, his "pride and joy" bombs failing to detonate, the cops closing in and assuming they'll be in the building at any moment... I think the weight of all those things along with whatever else could've been going on in his head is probably why he committed suicide as quickly as he did and before Dylan.

These things being said I do believe they Fed off each other and encouraged each other to go through with it. I think the only thing that kept either of them from backing out was their unusual loyalty to each other and not wanting to let the other down.

Love wrote:

Eric writes that he wants to kill people. Dylan writes that he wants to kill himself. Why, Dylan, having finally guns don't kill himself and goes to the "NBK" with Eric? Maybe boys are so affect each other that Eric inspires Dylan to murder, but Dylan inspires Eric to commit suicide?

I wouldn't use the word inspire.. Mass murder was on Dylan's mind long before the shooting just like Eric struggled with suicidal thoughts for a long time. I'd say they gave each other courage.
They both wanted to die. And they both wanted revenge before they took their last breath.

No, the OP has it right.

Dylan wrote almost overwhelmingly about depression and suicide, with scattered references to homicide.

Eric wrote entirely about homicide.

The two patterns are very different, and very distinct

Although it looks like Dylan harboured both suicide and homicide whereas eric only longed homicide and suicide was just an obligation.

There is no question that Dylan harbored strong homicidal urges. After all, he murdered 13 people and tried to murder hundreds more. That didn't come from nowhere, nor was it just Eric's influence.

But it's clear they were playing different scenarios in their heads. Eric's was a "national tragedy" attack after the manner of Oklahoma City. Dylan's was a "doomed love" scenario lifted from Natural Born Killers.

Dylan folded his plan into Eric's by imagining that his doomed love would finally recognize his existence after the attack, even if she didn't go on it with him. Eric constantly discussed his vision with Dylan; Dylan never discussed his with Eric.

Dylan made his fantasy compatible with Eric's rather than the other way around.

Isn't it an extremely important point that Dylan had any ideal murder fantasy at all? If you look at things in this context, then Eric and Dylan are not quite as distinct as certain people would have you believe. The greatest difference here may have been the motivation for suicide but we know that Dylan had access to a gun months before NBK, so obviously homicide was part of the plan.

I also have doubts about what you call a doomed love scenario. I think Dylan's short story was undoubtedly a reference to the coming massacre. There is nothing in this story that suggests that murder was a romantic gesture in his mind. In fact, I think it shows that he felt almost exactly the same as Eric did about the act of murder. I could explain it in my own words but I think this excerpt from his story where he meets the killer face to face explains his motivation for killing.

Dylan Klebold wrote:

If I could face an emotion of god, it would have looked like the man. I not only saw in his face, but also felt eminating from him power, complacence, closure, and godliness. The man smiled, and in that instant, thru no endeavor of my own, I understood his actions.

There may have been more to it but Dylan was in awe of the idea of committing murder. It appealed to the arrogance inside of him that was always telling him that he should not be held to the same standards of behavior as other people because he was better than them. I believe that to Dylan, suicide was weakness and murder was power. He couldn't die powerless. In Eric's mind, suicide was a last resort and murder was power. The distinction between their thinking was smaller than you have implied because they both had an intense urge to prove that they were powerful and above the rules imposed by society and they were both willing to kill to accomplish that.

I'm thinking that had these two never met they probably would have gone on to have "normal" lives and this atrocity would have never occurred, the perfect storm if you would. No doubt they both exhibited homicidal/suicidal tendencies but so do the majority of adolescent boys to certain extent. They clearly fed off of each other and even up to the last moment had either had any reservations neither would want to be the first to flinch (again adolescent machoism/mines bigger to the next level). In the end once this plan was hatched in their minds they had no choice but to see it through to completion.

Dylan made a note "Death (Afraid?)". It's like Dylan asks himself if he has any fear of death. Maybe Dylan needs a companion for suicide?

Love wrote:

Dylan made a note "Death (Afraid?)". It's like Dylan asks himself if he has any fear of death. Maybe Dylan needs a companion for suicide?

That was from Eric's Day Planner actually

025993-025995 - Item [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] - Notes on May 99 Day Planner by Eric

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

sororityalpha wrote:

Love wrote:

Dylan made a note "Death (Afraid?)". It's like Dylan asks himself if he has any fear of death. Maybe Dylan needs a companion for suicide?

That was from Eric's Day Planner actually

025993-025995 - Item [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] - Notes on May 99 Day Planner by Eric

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Yes, thank you for the picture. But that's Dylan, isn't it? Does this mean that he was referring to Eric?

While Dylan did write in Eric's planner, this was Eric's writing here.

Dylan's story was intended for public consumption. When he speaks in public, he imitates Eric.

Every single one of his private writings is about doomed love. Almost every time he mentions violence it is in close connection to doomed love. This is markedly different from Eric, who never mentions doomed love.

Read Dylan's diaries if you don't believe me. It's overwhelming:

Dylan Klebold wrote:

"The one who I thought was my true love, [redacted], is not. Such a shell of what I want the most. The meanest trick was played on me - a fake love. She, in reality, doesn’t give a good fuck about me, doesn’t even know me . . . [Redacted] can get me that gun I hope. I want to use it on a poor S.O.B. [son of a bitch] I know. His name is vodka, dylan is his name too."

"[Redacted] will get me a gun. I’ll go on my killing spree against anyone I want...Want to die and be free with my love, if she even exists."

"So close to my love [redacted]. The runes have shown it, she has shown it...The zombies and their society band together and try to destroy what is superior, what they don’t understand and are afraid of. Soon, either I’ll commit suicide or I’ll get with [female name] and it will be NBK for us."

"I love you [redacted]. That’s all I think about anymore. I know that this humanity is almost over, that we will be free."

"I will go away soon, but I just had to write this to you, the one I truly loved. Please, for my sake, don’t tell anybody about this, as it was only meant for you. Also, please don’t feel any guilt about my soon to be “absence” of this world - it is solely my decision, nobody else’s."

"Unfortunately, even if you did like me, even the slightest bit, you would hate me if you knew who I was. I am a criminal. I have done things that almost nobody would even think about condoning. The reason that I’m writing you now is that I have been caught for the crimes I committed and I want to go to a new existence. You know what I mean (suicide). I have noth¬ing to live for and I won’t be able to survive in this world after this legal conviction."

"I love my self, close second to [redacted], my everlasting love. Good¬bye. Dylan Klebold"

"I hate this non-thinking stasis. I’m stuck in humanity. Maybe going “NBK” (gawd) with Eric is the way to break free. I hate this. The weather is a replication of our thoughts. The happiness is possible, imminent, I love [redacted]"

"So I wait 5 more days [written on April 14/15]. 5 more days, 5 eternities, and I know her & I are all conceived from ourselves & each other."

"I love you, love. Time to die, time to be free, time to love."

How can you deny Dylan had a "doomed love" scenario in mind right up until the end?

Love wrote:

Dylan made a note "Death (Afraid?)". It's like Dylan asks himself if he has any fear of death. Maybe Dylan needs a companion for suicide?

"I'll kill with you if you die with me" Not that he said this outright, but I can picture something like this going through his mind. I know he was the first to write about a killing spree but I think at that time, those may have just been random thoughts rather than a clear plan to do so.

killintime wrote:

I'm thinking that had these two never met they probably would have gone on to have "normal" lives and this atrocity would have never occurred, the perfect storm if you would. No doubt they both exhibited homicidal/suicidal tendencies but so do the majority of adolescent boys to certain extent. They clearly fed off of each other and even up to the last moment had either had any reservations neither would want to be the first to flinch (again adolescent machoism/mines bigger to the next level). In the end once this plan was hatched in their minds they had no choice but to see it through to completion.  

I can't agree with you more. I knew a lot of people that felt this way and were suffering from suicidal and homicidal thoughts in high school (Myself included) they grew up to be fine, well most did anyway. I feel like they possibly were just pissed and were talking about all this shit they were feeling with no intent to do anything about it, basically just joking about going on a killing spree, then it slowly started becoming a plan. The more planning took place and purchases were made towards the plans for NBK, the less they could back out of it. I believe had one of them backed out, the other would not have gone through with it. Like you said though, there was no turning back in the end and unfortunately they went through with it.

lasttrain wrote:

Eric constantly discussed his vision with Dylan; Dylan never discussed his with Eric.

And where did you get this from?

Scarletmoon wrote:

killintime wrote:

I'm thinking that had these two never met they probably would have gone on to have "normal" lives and this atrocity would have never occurred, the perfect storm if you would. No doubt they both exhibited homicidal/suicidal tendencies but so do the majority of adolescent boys to certain extent. They clearly fed off of each other and even up to the last moment had either had any reservations neither would want to be the first to flinch (again adolescent machoism/mines bigger to the next level). In the end once this plan was hatched in their minds they had no choice but to see it through to completion.  

I can't agree with you more. I knew a lot of people that felt this way and were suffering from suicidal and homicidal thoughts in high school (Myself included) they grew up to be fine, well most did anyway. I feel like they possibly were just pissed and were talking about all this shit they were feeling with no intent to do anything about it, basically just joking about going on a killing spree, then it slowly started becoming a plan. The more planning took place and purchases were made towards the plans for NBK, the less they could back out of it. I believe had one of them backed out, the other would not have gone through with it. Like you said though, there was no turning back in the end and unfortunately they went through with it.

I just don't get why they thought the whole world was against them when that was not the case.

bradt93 wrote:

I just don't get why they thought the whole world was against them when that was not the case.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of people that feel that way. You can be surrounded by friends and family yet still feel completely alone in the world. They seem to have felt like no one understood them so, when they made the realization that they understood each other they found someone to reveal all of their dark and violent thoughts to. Although I believe Eric was much more open about those thoughts to others than Dylan was.

James Holmes stated that he went from suicide to homicide.

He has believed since he was a teenager that his mind was "broken."

He said he had been obsessed with killing for more than a decade.

Brauchler said in his opening statement that Holmes killed to make him feel better about himself after a series of personal setbacks, including failing at school and breaking up with his girlfriend.

Holmes wrote in his notebook that he studied neurology in college and grad school in a failed attempt to fix his own "broken mind."

His childhood was haunted by night terrors in which "Nail Ghosts" hammered on the walls. Shadows and "flickerings" danced in his peripheral vision. He has been depressed and obsessed with murder since about age 14, he says, because it was the only viable alternative to suicide.

"I kind of transferred it (suicide) to homicidal thoughts," he said, adding that the compulsion to kill became consuming.

“Doing the homicide got me out of depression,” he told Reid. “It gave a purpose.... The alternative was suicide.”

lasttrain wrote:

How can you deny Dylan had a "doomed love" scenario in mind right up until the end?

I have read Dylan’s journal and his other writings. I wouldn’t deny that love was on Dylan’s mind, probably constantly. I believe it was related to his depression but I don’t know that this was his reason for participating in murder.

If you look at those quotes carefully, it seems that Dylan believed that dying would allow him to be free to exist with his soul mate but I believe that his motivation for killing was distinct from his motivation for dying. He refers to superiority, resentment and revenge in relation to the zombies repeatedly and it has nothing to do with his communications with Eric. Dylan had a genuine “Eric side,” in my opinion. How can it be an imitation or an attempt to appeal to Eric if Eric never saw these writings?

One of your quotes with a direct reference to going NBK leaves out emphasis on what I think is the most important part.

Dylan Klebold wrote:

I know the meaning of each life: to be loved by your love, & to be happy with ones self. Only for the gods though (me, ____, etc.). the zombies & their society band together & try to destroy what is superior (what they don’t understand & are afraid of. Soon...either I’ll commit suicide, or I’ll get with ____ & it will be NBK for us. My happiness. Her happiness. NOTHING else matters. I’ve been caught with most of my crimes – xpl drinking, smoking & the house vandalism, & the pipe bombs. If, by fate’s choice, _____ didn’t love me, I’d slit my wrist & blow up Atlanta strapped to my neck.

Dylan goes from discussing love to discussing death but the important part is in between. He believes that he is superior to the rest of society and that they are trying to destroy his happiness and chance at love because they don’t understand or are afraid of people who think like him. He contemplates suicide here as an escape from a world that won’t allow him love but he also mentions the possibility of NBK. When he says that only their happiness matters, he may be referring to his idea that they will be happy in death, but it sounds like he may also be talking about the idea that killing for revenge would make him (and his love) happy.

Here’s a quote that you left out where he states it directly.

Dylan Klebold wrote:

Society is tightening its grip on me, & soon I & ____ will snap. We will have our revenge on society, & then be free, to exist in a timeless spaceless place of pure happiness. The purpose of life is to be happy & be with your love who is equally happy. Not much more to say. Goodbye.

Almost happiness is slavery — the real people (gods) are slaves to the majority of zombies, but we know & love being superior

Dylan says that society is trying to control him. This is what is causing him to snap. In a perfect world, Dylan would live freely with his love but this is not possible because of the zombies that make people like him into slaves. He wants to go on a rampage with his love and the motivation is clearly defined as revenge. The freedom to be with his love will come only in death, however suicide will not suffice for Dylan. Why? First, he must get revenge on the zombies for forcing him into suicide. I believe that this is a major reason for not commiting suicide, not choosing pure happiness, as soon as he had access to a gun. He wanted to make others hurt as he had and he wanted them to see that they were wrong.

Another quote, written one day before the massacre, drives this point home.

Dylan Klebold wrote:

1. One day, one is the beginning, ... the end. Hahaha. Reversed, yet true. About 26.5 hours from now the judgment will begin. Difficult, but not impossible, necessary, nerve-wracking & fun.
What fun is life without a little death?
It’s interesting, when I’m in my human form, knowing I’m going to die. Everything has a touch of triviality to it. Like how none of this calculus shit matters. The way it shouldn’t. the truth. In 26.4 hours, I’ll be dead, & in happiness. The little zombie human fags will know their errors, & be forever suffering and mournful. HAHAHAH, of course I will miss things. Not really.

There is no mention of love in this final piece of writing before the massacre. Instead, he takes solace in the fact that the human zombies will see their errors and suffer forever. Again, he makes it clear that death means happiness for himself but it’s revenge that motivates him to kill other people before he goes.

The tragic love story angle was comforting to Dylan and that may be why he wrote about it so much. He was in pain and terribly lonely but love wasn’t his reason for killing, only something to make himself feel better about dying. He wanted to show the zombies that they could drive him to suicide but that they weren’t the only ones with the power to cause pain and suffering. How can you deny that power and revenge were not motivations when he states it very clearly? Dylan was angry at the zombies and tired of feeling helpless in a society where he did not feel like he belonged. He was going to die either way but I don't believe that his participation in a massacre was for Eric’s sake.

sororityalpha wrote:

James Holmes stated that he went from suicide to homicide.

He has believed since he was a teenager that his mind was "broken."

He said he had been obsessed with killing for more than a decade.

Brauchler said in his opening statement that Holmes killed to make him feel better about himself after a series of personal setbacks, including failing at school and breaking up with his girlfriend.

Holmes wrote in his notebook that he studied neurology in college and grad school in a failed attempt to fix his own "broken mind."

His childhood was haunted by night terrors in which "Nail Ghosts" hammered on the walls. Shadows and "flickerings" danced in his peripheral vision. He has been depressed and obsessed with murder since about age 14, he says, because it was the only viable alternative to suicide.

"I kind of transferred it (suicide) to homicidal thoughts," he said, adding that the compulsion to kill became consuming.

“Doing the homicide got me out of depression,” he told Reid. “It gave a purpose.... The alternative was suicide.”

This strongly reminds me of Adam Lanza and I still wonder whether his homicidal urges originated from suicidal ideation.

Since you brought up another suicidal mass murderer, I thought it would be appropriate to quote from Sue Klebold's book. Apparently, it's very common for homicidal ideation to begin as suicidal ideation.

Sue Klebold wrote:

Randazzo: “There is often a fine line between people who are suicidal and homicidal. Most suicides are not homicidal, but many who are homicidal are there because of suicidality.” I believe this is what happened to Dyl.
—Annotated note from interview with Dr. Marisa Randazzo, February 2015

Criminal justice specialist Dr. Adam Lankford, author of The Myth of Martyrdom, studies the suicidality of suicide bombers and mass shooters. He writes that rampage shooters, like suicide bombers, share three main characteristics: mental health issues that have produced a desire to die, a deep sense of victimization, and the desire to earn fame and glory through killing. In one study, he looked at almost two hundred rampage shooters involved in events from 1966 to 2010. Almost half of them died by suicide as part of their attacks. Others may have intended to die, but were restrained or taken into custody before they had the chance. Truly suicidal or not, rampage shooters have less than a 1 percent chance of escaping the consequences of their actions. To plan an event with such a disastrously low chance of escape or survival implies what Lankford calls “life indifference.”

According to threat assessment experts, mass shooters almost always follow a discernible path to the shootings they commit. Recognizing the signposts on that path is the key to preventing these events. The pathway often begins with the desire to die. For a long time, murder-suicide was viewed as a subset of murder, not of suicide. Some murder-suicides do correspond to the murder model, where suicide is a “plan B” turned to only when other escape options have failed. But a shifting understanding of suicide and a closer look at the data have revealed that many murder-suicides, if not the vast majority, have their genesis in suicidal thoughts. In other words, as Dr. Joiner writes, “If it can be shown that suicide is fundamental in murder-suicide, then suicide prevention is also murder-suicide prevention.”

In the case of Columbine, at least, I believe that is true. For years I searched for the missing integer, the piece of Dylan’s character that allowed him to do what he did. From what I’ve learned, I now believe the third segment of Dr. Joiner’s Venn diagram—the capability to die by suicide—provides part of the answer. In his writings, Dylan takes comfort from the idea of death. But he does not seem to have the capability for suicide by himself. As Dr. Joiner points out, people have to become desensitized to the violence and the fear of pain in order to be able to harm themselves. (He posits that this is why suicide rates are higher in populations routinely exposed to—and therefore inured to—pain and horror, such as doctors, soldiers, and people with anorexia.) Our natural instinct for survival is hardwired, and most people have to work themselves up to ignoring it over time. Dylan couldn’t—by himself. He talks about suicide, but he does not by himself come up with a plan to do it. His writing about it, as it is about most things, is abstract. That paralysis is reflected throughout the journals. He wants a job working with computers, but he can’t get one or keep the one he gets. He talks over and over about the girl he has a crush on, but there is no evidence he made any advances toward her. He agonizes over the letter he writes to her, but doesn’t deliver it. In fact, there’s no evidence they ever spoke.

The same thing appears to be true for suicide, and he turns to Eric for help: “Soon….either ill commit suicide, or I’ll get w. [redacted girl’s name] & it will be NBK for us.” Dylan appears to have “needed” Eric’s homicidal plan in order to be able to do what he most wanted to do: die by suicide. Dr. Joiner suggested to me that planning with Eric for the rampage may have been part of the way Dylan rehearsed his own death. The preparations helped him to desensitize himself.

I think the desire to die came first. And then came the idea of revenge. Revenge was a strong enough incentive to facilitate the idea of suicide.

Love wrote:

I think the desire to die came first. And then came the idea of revenge. Revenge was a strong enough incentive to facilitate the idea of suicide.

I think so too. I think it was easier to face an obligatory suicide once he was gonna be part of the homicideXrevenge plot

Sue Klebold wrote:

Randazzo: “There is often a fine line between people who are suicidal and homicidal. Most suicides are not homicidal, but many who are homicidal are there because of suicidality.”

I believe this is what happened to Dyl.

—Annotated note from interview with Dr. Marisa Randazzo, February 2015

sororityalpha wrote:

Sue Klebold wrote:

Randazzo: “There is often a fine line between people who are suicidal and homicidal. Most suicides are not homicidal, but many who are homicidal are there because of suicidality.”

I believe this is what happened to Dyl.

—Annotated note from interview with Dr. Marisa Randazzo, February 2015

great quote.. the line is very fine. Simplified, but short of a lengthy psych breakdown.. self loathers usually go the suicide route and extreme narcissists are more likely to focus on externalizing their destruction upon others.