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 Why do you think?

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PostSubject: Why do you think?    Why do you think?  Icon_minitimeThu Jun 13, 2013 2:28 am

I'm reading Dylan's journal right now and in one of the journal entries he rants about how his one and only best friend (assuming it's Zach Heckler because he mentioned going on rebel missions together and the name was edited) is ditching him for a girl and that's making him even more depressed and lonely because he finally found someone that was like him, who appreciated him and shared very common interests. But Dylan still had Eric and Eric appreciated him, saw him as a best friend and shared common interests as well. So my question is why do you think Dylan didn't see Eric as a best friend and cared more for his friendship with Zach than with Eric?


He then mentioned Eric will be getting further away soon and doesn't seem to be that upset over it which I wonder what he meant by that. And then in beginning of Feb 98 Dylan mentions going NBK twice with someone other than Eric and getting revenge on society. How do you think going NBK with Eric came about?
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StinkyOldGrapes




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PostSubject: Re: Why do you think?    Why do you think?  Icon_minitimeThu Jun 13, 2013 2:54 am

In that particular journal entry, Dylan says,

Quote :
when REDACTED came around, I finally felt happiness (sometimes) we did cigars, drinking, sabotage to houses, everything for the first time together & now that he’s “moved on” I feel so lonely, without a friend.

Is Dylan saying that he first sabotaged houses with this unnamed person, not Eric? People say that Eric taught Dylan how to express his frustrations in a violent manner, but it appears that Dylan was dabbling in violence before he grew close to Eric.

Later on in his journal, Dylan says,

Quote :
Eric will be getting further away soon…. I’ll have less than nothing … how normal. I wanted to love … I wanted to be happy and ambitions and free & nice & good & ignorant…. everyone abandoned me … REDACTED will get me a gun, I’ll go on my killing spree against anyone I want

The name hasn't been redacted, so I'm going to assume he's referring to Eric Harris in this entry. Dylan doesn't appear to see Eric as a close friend yet, so it's unlikely that Dylan's desire to go on a killing spree is being influenced by Eric. Dylan looks to be considering killing people by himself, without a partner.

Is it possible that Dylan had the idea of a suicidal killing spree first and that Eric became more and more violent to impress Dylan and keep him as a friend?

Quote :
So my question is why do you think Dylan didn't see Eric as a best friend and cared more for his friendship with Zach than with Eric?

I'm not sure if Dylan  became extremely close to Eric until months before the massacre. I am surprised though that Dylan felt so depressed about being alone. As a youth, if my friends abandoned me, I would have said, "Fuck them".

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StinkyOldGrapes




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PostSubject: Re: Why do you think?    Why do you think?  Icon_minitimeThu Jun 13, 2013 3:01 am

I'm really starting to think that Dylan was considering a suicidal killing spree for some time before he became close friends with Eric. Dylan's misery and despair sounds typical of other rampage murderers.

I'm sure Eric was a violent guy, but he may not have been actively suicidal until he met Dylan. He may have wanted to show off to Dylan by having the guts to show he wasn't afraid of dying.

Eric could have been the one who brought all the creative flair to Dylan's idea to rampage (the idea to include bombs, the idea to shoot people as they were fleeing, etc.), because if he was going to die, he'd want his death to be a big deal.

After all, Dylan was the one laughing himself stupid while shooting in the library. Eric was said to be rather quiet. They say that Dylan didn't get that involved in the killing until he entered the library. Maybe that was because a common shooting spree was what he really wanted to do from the beginning?
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PostSubject: Re: Why do you think?    Why do you think?  Icon_minitimeThu Jun 13, 2013 5:13 am

I dont want to mock you, but we discussed exactly the same topic in this thread: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Hope, I helped.
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StinkyOldGrapes




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PostSubject: Re: Why do you think?    Why do you think?  Icon_minitimeThu Jun 13, 2013 10:07 am

Quote :
I dont want to mock you, but we discussed exactly the same topic in this thread: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Damn. I wasn't aware of that.

After reading that thread, I'd be interested to know what conclusions everyone has come to?

What does everyone think now, at this point in time: Was Dylan a capable killer before he became good friends with Eric? Yes or No?
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PostSubject: Re: Why do you think?    Why do you think?  Icon_minitimeThu Jun 13, 2013 11:49 am

StinkyOldGrapes wrote:
I'd be interested to know what conclusions everyone has come to?

What does everyone think now, at this point in time: Was Dylan a capable killer before he became good friends with Eric? Yes or No?
I think he considered it at first without real intentions, he cared more about killing himself for what I've read, then the ideas exchanging between the two made it into a real possibility and eventually into a fact. 
So I guess it's the match that made them both actually capable of killing

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PostSubject: Re: Why do you think?    Why do you think?  Icon_minitimeThu Jun 13, 2013 6:31 pm

CatherineM813 wrote:
I'm reading Dylan's journal right now and in one of the journal entries he rants about how his one and only best friend (assuming it's Zach Heckler because he mentioned going on rebel missions together and the name was edited) is ditching him for a girl and that's making him even more depressed and lonely because he finally found someone that was like him, who appreciated him and shared very common interests. But Dylan still had Eric and Eric appreciated him, saw him as a best friend and shared common interests as well. So my question is why do you think Dylan didn't see Eric as a best friend and cared more for his friendship with Zach than with Eric?


He then mentioned Eric will be getting further away soon and doesn't seem to be that upset over it which I wonder what he meant by that. And then in beginning of Feb 98 Dylan mentions going NBK twice with someone other than Eric and getting revenge on society. How do you think going NBK with Eric came about?





Because in early 1997 when Dylan wrote about Zach finding his soulmate (Devon), Dylan was friends with Eric but still not as close with Eric as he was with Zach.  Zach and Dylan spoke almost nightly on the phone and apparently shared their depressive feelings.  They had a common bond in wanting to kill themselves.  I also read in the 11K under Sarah Slater that Zach would often pour his guts to her and he cried.  He was sad and emotional for a guy.  Apparently, Devon, as Zach's girlfriend, became his sounding board and confident, and Zach made it through a tough year with her help.  There is an entry in one of the yearbooks - I forget '98 or '99 - where Devon dedicates to her "Bear" (Zach) and mentions about being proud that he made it through the year.  So, once Devon came into the picture, she stole away Dylan's best friend ever.  His emotional confident.  Eric was never that emotional confident.  I think Eric was a rebound friendship.  After Zach "left" Dylan, Dylan tightened his bond with Eric and stuck to him like glue.  Simply, because for Dylan being alone, was the worst thing ever.  It was better to be with Eric than to be trampled over by Zach and Devon and be left all by himself.  Eric's relationship with Dylan was different.  He got Dylan to take action about his depressive feelings.  He helped him have a goal to externalize his supressed anger and sad feelings and take revenge rather than simply implode and wallow in pain. So, Dylan numbed himself out getting more heavily interested in and fascinated by violence, explosives, fireworks, etc. 

I think when Dylan mentioned that Eric would be getting further away soon that perhaps Eric was dating and so Dylan felt that soon he'd take up with a girlfriend.  It also could be because of the January incident and the parents forcing the two to separate.  I believe Dylan's mom said that she saw Dylan distancing himself from Eric by his own choice.  As for NBK with someone else - I think Dylan still thought of Zach as the one who understood him the best.  I think Dylan still fantasized that he and Zach would go NBK.  At some point in between all of that, Eric and Dylan had that usual, sympatico conversation at Blackjacks or school or whatever - the ragging about how much the school sucked, how much they hated various people, and society and so they had a meeting of the minds.  NBK just solidified.  I'm sure they probably both agreed that neither wanted to be stuck in prison so the best option (especially for Dylan) was to go out after the deed.
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PostSubject: Re: Why do you think?    Why do you think?  Icon_minitimeSat Jun 15, 2013 11:47 am

Great post InfiNIN!! I agree with everything you say!

If I'm right, Eric was dating Sasha Jacobs at the time of Dylans Diarie entry about Eric getting further away soon.

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PostSubject: Re: Why do you think?    Why do you think?  Icon_minitimeSat Jun 15, 2013 1:20 pm

I think there's a lot of evidence, especially from their journals, that Eric needed Dylan more than vice-versa. Off the top of my head I can't think of anyone that Eric was really close to besides Dylan. Whereas Dylan I can name a few right off the bat.

We know Dylan writes about the idea of an NBK without Eric, probably with Zach. If him and Zach had gone NBK I doubt they would have had even near the body count as Eric and Dylan. Eric brought the grandiosity to Columbine. It was his interest in bombs, guns, Doom, etc that set NBK up as a bombing first and foremost -- because that would have gotten them a higher body count. It was Eric who put forth most of the effort, money, and time into making the bombs and generally doing the planning of the whole massacre.

Columbine for Eric was more systematic. More grandiose. More militant. While Dylan was hollering in the library, taunting people, smashing computers, and in general fucking around -- Eric was busy doing most of the actual killing. Look at the kill counts for both the boys, it's disproportionately lopsided towards Eric. Columbine for Dylan was more fun. More care-free. More "fuck it, I want to die."

Had Dylan gone NBK with Zach I would guess both of them would have walked into the school with guns and simply started shooting. No plans. No bombs. No 'seriousness' -- just have fun and ultimately die. Interesting how in their notebooks Dylan wrote: Have Fun!. I think NBK for Dylan was about having fun.
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PostSubject: Re: Why do you think?    Why do you think?  Icon_minitimeSat Jun 15, 2013 6:59 pm

Quote :
We know Dylan writes about the idea of an NBK without Eric, probably with Zach. If him and Zach had gone NBK I doubt they would have had even near the body count as Eric and Dylan. Eric brought the grandiosity to Columbine. It was his interest in bombs, guns, Doom, etc that set NBK up as a bombing first and foremost -- because that would have gotten them a higher body count.

I think if Eric had been a bit less grandiose and planned Columbine as a straight up shooting, the body count would have been much higher.

Do you think Dylan really could've done NBK with Zach? Did Dylan believe Zach would be willing to die with him?

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PostSubject: Re: Why do you think?    Why do you think?  Icon_minitimeSat Jun 15, 2013 7:06 pm

Why do you think that? I disagree if the cafeteria bombs worked then hundreds of people would have died. Thankfully that didn't happen.

I'm not sure if Zach would be willing to go NBK with Dylan. But then again Zach was really depressed and I think Dylan mentioned in his journal that he was suicidal.
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PostSubject: Re: Why do you think?    Why do you think?  Icon_minitimeSat Jun 15, 2013 8:02 pm

Quote :
Why do you think that? I disagree if the cafeteria bombs worked then hundreds of people would have died. Thankfully that didn't happen.

I meant because Eric was a shitty bombmaker. I don't think he ever stood a chance of building a serious explosive. When his bombs didn't detonate, he had to improvise, and he didn't do a good job of that either.

Even though the bombs failed, E/D could have still covered the exits and shot people fleeing, but because they hadn't planned for failure, they were confused.

If they'd planned Columbine as a shooting right from the start, they could have systematically gone around shooting people, and because the cops took so long to enter the building, they would have racked up a high body count had they done that.

If all the money and time spent on bomb making had gone into planning a shooting (purchasing more ammunition, spending more time on target practice, discussing the practical aspect like making certain people were dead and not pretending), the attack would have been devastating.

Of course, if Eric had been a capable bombmaker, a bomb would have been deadly too, but since he wasn't, he'd have been better off with a straight up shooting.

Quote :
I'm not sure if Zach would be willing to go NBK with Dylan. But then again Zach was really depressed and I think Dylan mentioned in his journal that he was suicidal.

Was it finding a girlfriend that improved Zach's outlook on life?

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PostSubject: Re: Why do you think?    Why do you think?  Icon_minitimeSat Jun 15, 2013 8:25 pm

I see where you are coming from and you do make some really great points. Zach's girlfriend might have improved his depression.
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PostSubject: Re: Why do you think?    Why do you think?  Icon_minitimeSat Jun 15, 2013 11:56 pm

StinkyOldGrapes wrote:

Quote :
I'm not sure if Zach would be willing to go NBK with Dylan. But then again Zach was really depressed and I think Dylan mentioned in his journal that he was suicidal.

Was it finding a girlfriend that improved Zach's outlook on life?

Most emphatically.  Devon mentions how proud of him she is for "overcoming last year's problems."

Dylan was quite jealous that his best friend had found someone to "admit suicide to" and he, himself, had no one to help him.  He felt like he was completely dropped and ignored by his best friend, Zach, and Devon, who was also a rare female friend.  He goes so far to say that he'd like to kill her.  I'm sure some take that literally but I think he is just blowing off steam because he is so sore that she took his very best bud away.  I can just see that the difference might have been Dylan and Zach chatting on the phone nightly about serious unhappy matters where as after Zach and Devon were an item, Zach probably called him maybe once a week.

Sadly, all it might have  taken was just one quality girlfriend to enter into Dylan's life - the caliber of Devon - to change everything for him.  There again, Dylan might've met someone not so special, perhaps ending up dumped.  In which case, that would've really depressed him even more.  Still, I think a girl friend was something he really craved emotionally.  I think having a female in his life might have made some sort of effect or impression on him and may have veered him away from Eric and his war-like course.  

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