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 Why didn't Adam use the saiga?

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PostSubject: Why didn't Adam use the saiga?   Why didn't Adam use the saiga? Icon_minitimeMon Jun 19, 2017 12:10 am

As you know, AL had a saiga 12 gauge gas automatic shotgun in his car's trunk in the school parking lot. A 12 gauge shotgun (especially a fully automatic one) has the potential to do tons more damage in close quarters than a .223, crappily maintained AR-15.
So why didn't he use the saiga?
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PostSubject: Re: Why didn't Adam use the saiga?   Why didn't Adam use the saiga? Icon_minitimeMon Jun 19, 2017 12:59 am

My best guess would be the fact that the shotgun would have been more cumbersome and difficult for someone of Adam's frail body build to use. Although there is the distant possibility that the gun was left in the trunk of the car on purpose in case of a shootout occurring outside of the school. If for whatever reason the police took longer to get to the school and Adam was able to kill more and try to leave the building, he could have reached into the trunk of his car to use the Saiga for a final shootout. This is all just my pure speculation though.
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PostSubject: Re: Why didn't Adam use the saiga?   Why didn't Adam use the saiga? Icon_minitimeMon Jun 19, 2017 5:23 am

The Saiga is badass.

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PostSubject: Re: Why didn't Adam use the saiga?   Why didn't Adam use the saiga? Icon_minitimeMon Jun 19, 2017 12:11 pm

Thank you for creating a new thread instead of necroing the other one.

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PostSubject: Re: Why didn't Adam use the saiga?   Why didn't Adam use the saiga? Icon_minitimeWed Jul 12, 2017 11:42 pm

hate99 wrote:
As you know, AL had a saiga 12 gauge gas automatic shotgun in his car's trunk in the school parking lot. A 12 gauge shotgun (especially a fully automatic one) has the potential to do tons more damage in close quarters than a .223, crappily maintained AR-15.
So why didn't he use the saiga?

He left it in the passenger seat, the police moved it to the trunk.

I think Adam chose the Bushmaster over the Saiga-12 because he had a lot of time to test them out in private and likely determined that the Bushmaster was easier for him and/or faster to reload. I don't think he realized how poorly maintained the weapons were, otherwise he would not have let such an easy problem to go over looked.
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PostSubject: Re: Why didn't Adam use the saiga?   Why didn't Adam use the saiga? Icon_minitimeMon Aug 14, 2017 6:41 am

I've wondered this as well. You'd think a shotgun would have been more effective for CQC, essentially what you'd encounter in a school.

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PostSubject: Re: Why didn't Adam use the saiga?   Why didn't Adam use the saiga? Icon_minitimeMon Feb 04, 2019 1:34 pm

He seemed to have an interest in the vz. 58 rifle and even mentioned it on his gayfortimk Tumblr page in the context of L'ubomir Harman. I'm guessing that he couldn't get any 7.62x39mm rifles because Connecticut banned those which are AK type, so he would be left with purchasing an SKS (slow reload) or getting a vz. 58, yet vz. 58 rifles aren't common in the United States. The expansion and tissue damage caused by a 7.62x39mm soft point is far grander than anything that a .223/5.56x45mm soft point could possibly do.

The Saiga had a lower capacity and far more recoil than his .223. I wonder if he had a sudden realization that his anorexia was an extreme tactical disadvantage shortly before he pulled up to the school.
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PostSubject: Re: Why didn't Adam use the saiga?   Why didn't Adam use the saiga? Icon_minitimeMon Feb 04, 2019 2:02 pm

NSAhoneypot wrote:

The Saiga had a lower capacity and far more recoil than his .223. I wonder if he had a sudden realization that his anorexia was an extreme tactical disadvantage shortly before he pulled up to the school.

Plus the fact that he had far more ammunition for the rifle and the magazines for it had larger capacity compared even to the extended drum magazines that Lanza left at home. I wonder how many magazines for the Saiga was found on him or at his car after the shooting? I know he had one unused shell in one of his pockets. I still surprised he took it anyway up towards to the start of his attack at Sandy Hook though he never used it. I wonder if he brought the Saiga in order to shoot out the glass from the front entrance doors & windows in case the Bushmaster didn't really succeed at doing so, unfortunately the rifle seemed adequate enough in doing this despite handing errors later during his shooting.

I think Adam had long considered his physical state being a huge disadvantage to him if he was finally carry out mass murder and in my opinion it seems to factor into his choosing of a elementary school instead of a middle/high school or a college for the site of his attack. I imagine Adam thought that high schools and universities would put up more of fight and could hinder him from doing what he wanted but that's just all speculation on my part.
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PostSubject: Re: Why didn't Adam use the saiga?   Why didn't Adam use the saiga? Icon_minitimeMon Feb 04, 2019 2:50 pm

UncontinuedProcess wrote:
NSAhoneypot wrote:

The Saiga had a lower capacity and far more recoil than his .223. I wonder if he had a sudden realization that his anorexia was an extreme tactical disadvantage shortly before he pulled up to the school.

I wonder how many magazines for the Saiga was found on him or at his car after the shooting?
He had two 10 round magazines for it in his car.
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PostSubject: Re: Why didn't Adam use the saiga?   Why didn't Adam use the saiga? Icon_minitimeMon Feb 04, 2019 3:14 pm

UncontinuedProcess wrote:
NSAhoneypot wrote:

The Saiga had a lower capacity and far more recoil than his .223. I wonder if he had a sudden realization that his anorexia was an extreme tactical disadvantage shortly before he pulled up to the school.

Plus the fact that he had far more ammunition for the rifle and the magazines for it had larger capacity compared even to the extended drum magazines that Lanza left at home. I wonder how many magazines for the Saiga was found on him or at his car after the shooting? I know he had one unused shell in one of his pockets. I still surprised he took it anyway up towards to the start of his attack at Sandy Hook though he never used it. I wonder if he brought the Saiga in order to shoot out the glass from the front entrance doors & windows in case the Bushmaster didn't really succeed at doing so, unfortunately the rifle seemed adequate enough in doing this despite handing errors later during his shooting.

 

If the front windows had been all laminated glass, it would have taken more time and effort to smash his way in. Lanza probably did not know what type of glass the windows would have been of.
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PostSubject: Re: Why didn't Adam use the saiga?   Why didn't Adam use the saiga? Icon_minitimeMon Feb 04, 2019 8:05 pm

Ziamber II wrote:


If the front windows had been all laminated glass, it would have taken more time and effort to smash his way in. Lanza probably did not know what type of glass the windows would have been of.

He probably didn't but regardless maybe that's why he took the Saiga as a precaution in case.
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PostSubject: Re: Why didn't Adam use the saiga?   Why didn't Adam use the saiga? Icon_minitimeMon Feb 04, 2019 8:11 pm

Probably because it weighed more and the ammo also weighed more when compared to the AR-15. Also the recoil for the Saiga is way more than the AR which would've been hard on Lanza considering how skinny he was (basically anorexic). The AR also has much better penetration (for shooting through doors and walls) than the Saiga and can be generally fired quicker too, its honestly a very good cqc weapon (although that doesn't matter too much given that it was practically shooting fish in a barrel for Lanza given the circumstances of the shooting).
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PostSubject: Re: Why didn't Adam use the saiga?   Why didn't Adam use the saiga? Icon_minitimeMon Feb 04, 2019 8:14 pm

Mh_12rm_66 wrote:
Probably because it weighed more and the ammo also weighed more when compared to the AR-15. Also the recoil for the Saiga is way more than the AR which would've been hard on Lanza considering how skinny he was (basically anorexic). The AR also has much better penetration (for shooting through doors and walls) than the Saiga and can be generally fired quicker too, its honestly a very good cqc weapon (although that doesn't matter too much given that it was practically shooting fish in a barrel for Lanza given the circumstances of the shooting).

I'm starting to wonder if he just took the Saiga just for the hell of it. No real plan for it's use in anyway at all, just a "Eh make just take the Saiga along with me for one last ride".

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PostSubject: Re: Why didn't Adam use the saiga?   Why didn't Adam use the saiga? Icon_minitimeMon Feb 04, 2019 8:25 pm

UncontinuedProcess wrote:
Mh_12rm_66 wrote:
Probably because it weighed more and the ammo also weighed more when compared to the AR-15. Also the recoil for the Saiga is way more than the AR which would've been hard on Lanza considering how skinny he was (basically anorexic). The AR also has much better penetration (for shooting through doors and walls) than the Saiga and can be generally fired quicker too, its honestly a very good cqc weapon (although that doesn't matter too much given that it was practically shooting fish in a barrel for Lanza given the circumstances of the shooting).

I'm starting to wonder if he just took the Saiga just for the hell of it. No real plan for it's use in anyway at all, just a "Eh make just take the Saiga along with me for one last ride".

Yeah I read some articles saying that he kept it in propped up in his car so he could grab it and take cover behind his car to ambush responding officers if he ended up leaving the school before they showed, although this theory definitely seemed like speculation at best.
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PostSubject: Re: Why didn't Adam use the saiga?   Why didn't Adam use the saiga? Icon_minitimeMon Feb 04, 2019 10:56 pm

UncontinuedProcess wrote:
I'm starting to wonder if he just took the Saiga just for the hell of it. No real plan for it's use in anyway at all
I have a theory (which is mainly composed of a bunch of probable coincidences that don't add up to much but is still interesting to me) that Adam could have made certain choices regarding the massacre as some sort of reference to or acknowledgment of past shooters.

It is worth noting that Anders Breivik left his shotgun in the front seat of his vehicle when he made his way to the island by boat. Here is an excerpt from One of Us which talks about this:
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Most of the other potential connections that I've come up with are rather tenuous but this struck me hard when I first noticed it because I'd already been playing with the idea of Adam "paying tribute" to previous shooters for quite some time and the fact that Adam would go to the trouble of bringing a shotgun and then leave it in the car at the last minute never made much sense to anyone, including me. In my opinion, it seems like possible evidence that he may have made this choice purposefully, in reference to a past shooter.

At the very least, it's something to think about.

If this is not the case, then my best guess would be the same reason that is discussed in Anders' psychiatric report.
When asked he says that he had with him a Benelli Super Nova, a Ruger Mini 14 cal 5.56 and a Glock 34. The accused becomes aware that he has a small tear in a finger. He thinks that the shotgun is left behind in the car. He has slug ammunition for the shotgun. The shotgun was left behind in the car because all the equipment was too heavy to carry. The accused brought with him six cartridge clips for the Glock. Four of the clips were 30 shot magazines. For the Ruger he had 10 pieces of 30 shot magazines.
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PostSubject: Re: Why didn't Adam use the saiga?   Why didn't Adam use the saiga? Icon_minitimeMon Feb 04, 2019 11:10 pm

sscc wrote:
UncontinuedProcess wrote:
I'm starting to wonder if he just took the Saiga just for the hell of it. No real plan for it's use in anyway at all
I have a theory (which is mainly composed of a bunch of probable coincidences that don't add up to much but is still interesting to me) that Adam could have made certain choices regarding the massacre as some sort of reference to or acknowledgment of past shooters.

It is worth noting that Anders Breivik left his shotgun in the front seat of his vehicle when he made his way to the island by boat. Here is an excerpt from One of Us which talks about this:


Most of the other potential connections that I've come up with are rather tenuous but this struck me hard when I first noticed it because I'd already been playing with the idea of Adam "paying tribute" to previous shooters for quite some time and the fact that Adam would go to the trouble of bringing a shotgun and then leave it in the car at the last minute never made much sense to anyone, including me. In my opinion, it seems like possible evidence that he may have made this choice purposefully, in reference to a past shooter.

I think this hypothesis was discussed in regards to why Lanza left behind a couple of black hoodies or coats or something of the sort in the parking lot of the school - paying subtle homage to Harris and Klebold.

Also it's nice to see you posting again. jocolor

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PostSubject: Re: Why didn't Adam use the saiga?   Why didn't Adam use the saiga? Icon_minitimeMon Feb 04, 2019 11:21 pm

QuestionMark wrote:
sscc wrote:
UncontinuedProcess wrote:
I'm starting to wonder if he just took the Saiga just for the hell of it. No real plan for it's use in anyway at all
I have a theory (which is mainly composed of a bunch of probable coincidences that don't add up to much but is still interesting to me) that Adam could have made certain choices regarding the massacre as some sort of reference to or acknowledgment of past shooters.

It is worth noting that Anders Breivik left his shotgun in the front seat of his vehicle when he made his way to the island by boat. Here is an excerpt from One of Us which talks about this:


Most of the other potential connections that I've come up with are rather tenuous but this struck me hard when I first noticed it because I'd already been playing with the idea of Adam "paying tribute" to previous shooters for quite some time and the fact that Adam would go to the trouble of bringing a shotgun and then leave it in the car at the last minute never made much sense to anyone, including me. In my opinion, it seems like possible evidence that he may have made this choice purposefully, in reference to a past shooter.

I think this hypothesis was discussed in regards to why Lanza left behind a couple of black hoodies or coats or something of the sort in the parking lot of the school - paying subtle homage to Harris and Klebold.
Another possible example might be Adam taping his magazines together a la Robert Hawkins.

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PostSubject: Re: Why didn't Adam use the saiga?   Why didn't Adam use the saiga? Icon_minitimeMon Feb 04, 2019 11:42 pm

rodent wrote:
QuestionMark wrote:
sscc wrote:
UncontinuedProcess wrote:
I'm starting to wonder if he just took the Saiga just for the hell of it. No real plan for it's use in anyway at all
I have a theory (which is mainly composed of a bunch of probable coincidences that don't add up to much but is still interesting to me) that Adam could have made certain choices regarding the massacre as some sort of reference to or acknowledgment of past shooters.

It is worth noting that Anders Breivik left his shotgun in the front seat of his vehicle when he made his way to the island by boat. Here is an excerpt from One of Us which talks about this:


Most of the other potential connections that I've come up with are rather tenuous but this struck me hard when I first noticed it because I'd already been playing with the idea of Adam "paying tribute" to previous shooters for quite some time and the fact that Adam would go to the trouble of bringing a shotgun and then leave it in the car at the last minute never made much sense to anyone, including me. In my opinion, it seems like possible evidence that he may have made this choice purposefully, in reference to a past shooter.

I think this hypothesis was discussed in regards to why Lanza left behind a couple of black hoodies or coats or something of the sort in the parking lot of the school - paying subtle homage to Harris and Klebold.
Another possible example might be Adam taping his magazines together a la Robert Hawkins.

That too, though certainly that one can be explained away as it being simply more practical to carry and quicker to reload.

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PostSubject: Re: Why didn't Adam use the saiga?   Why didn't Adam use the saiga? Icon_minitimeTue Feb 05, 2019 3:34 am

QuestionMark wrote:
That too, though certainly that one can be explained away as it being simply more practical to carry and quicker to reload.
True.
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PostSubject: Re: Why didn't Adam use the saiga?   Why didn't Adam use the saiga? Icon_minitimeTue Feb 05, 2019 6:09 pm

SavageGlocker wrote:
UncontinuedProcess wrote:
NSAhoneypot wrote:

The Saiga had a lower capacity and far more recoil than his .223. I wonder if he had a sudden realization that his anorexia was an extreme tactical disadvantage shortly before he pulled up to the school.

I wonder how many magazines for the Saiga was found on him or at his car after the shooting?
He had two 10 round magazines for it in his car.
That's another reason then, he had such little ammo for it on him.
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PostSubject: Re: Why didn't Adam use the saiga?   Why didn't Adam use the saiga? Icon_minitimeFri Feb 08, 2019 1:33 am

QuestionMark wrote:
rodent wrote:
QuestionMark wrote:
sscc wrote:
UncontinuedProcess wrote:
I'm starting to wonder if he just took the Saiga just for the hell of it. No real plan for it's use in anyway at all
I have a theory (which is mainly composed of a bunch of probable coincidences that don't add up to much but is still interesting to me) that Adam could have made certain choices regarding the massacre as some sort of reference to or acknowledgment of past shooters.

It is worth noting that Anders Breivik left his shotgun in the front seat of his vehicle when he made his way to the island by boat. Here is an excerpt from One of Us which talks about this:


Most of the other potential connections that I've come up with are rather tenuous but this struck me hard when I first noticed it because I'd already been playing with the idea of Adam "paying tribute" to previous shooters for quite some time and the fact that Adam would go to the trouble of bringing a shotgun and then leave it in the car at the last minute never made much sense to anyone, including me. In my opinion, it seems like possible evidence that he may have made this choice purposefully, in reference to a past shooter.

I think this hypothesis was discussed in regards to why Lanza left behind a couple of black hoodies or coats or something of the sort in the parking lot of the school - paying subtle homage to Harris and Klebold.
Another possible example might be Adam taping his magazines together a la Robert Hawkins.

That too, though certainly that one can be explained away as it being simply more practical to carry and quicker to reload.

I'm sure he got the idea from Hawkins though, despite it being for practical purposes. After all, he did refer to him as one of his favorite shooters. Another potential homage to Columbine is him firing out of the windows in Room 10, apparently at nothing. Perhaps this was a reference to Eric and Dylan shooting out the library windows. There's also the green army vest which could be in reference to Patrick Purdy, who was to my knowledge the deadliest US elementary school shooter prior to Adam. Adam also mentioned he really enjoyed a Lifetime movie about Richard Farley and there're numerous similarities between the two of them. Wearing earplugs, shooting through a window to gain access to a building, and carrying a pistol that he didn't even end up using. Most of these are probably coincidental, but it's interesting to speculate about.

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PostSubject: Re: Why didn't Adam use the saiga?   Why didn't Adam use the saiga? Icon_minitimeFri Feb 08, 2019 8:40 pm

That strikes me as plausible. Any idea on the goofy hat?
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PostSubject: Re: Why didn't Adam use the saiga?   Why didn't Adam use the saiga? Icon_minitimeFri Feb 08, 2019 8:45 pm

cakeman wrote:
That strikes me as plausible. Any idea on the goofy hat?

Michael Ryan wore a very similar hat in the only known photos of him.

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PostSubject: Re: Why didn't Adam use the saiga?   Why didn't Adam use the saiga? Icon_minitimeSat Feb 16, 2019 8:06 am

So he could fit in more with his spreadsheet
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PostSubject: Re: Why didn't Adam use the saiga?   Why didn't Adam use the saiga? Icon_minitimeMon Mar 22, 2021 9:11 am

If Adam did use the Saiga he would probably be scared of the gun's recoil and he had only 2 magazines for it so he would have gave his victims enough time to escape, he'd lose control of the gun when he once fires it.
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PostSubject: Re: Why didn't Adam use the saiga?   Why didn't Adam use the saiga? Icon_minitimeMon Mar 22, 2021 10:29 am

Well, I think he brought the shotgun for the hell of it and more of "what if I use it", honestly, I do think he knew the recoil would perphaps be too much for him and that a recoil of a rifle would be easier to handle. Also I think he had plans to commit with the shotgun, dont only because of his photo of pointing the shitgun to his head, but also because it was found a single shell in his pants right pocket, which make me think that he had plans to use it as his suicide shell, after using his shotgun mags, perphaps. But that is just my thoughts.

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