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 Did Dylan shoot himself with the TEC-9?

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Did Dylan shoot himself with the TEC-9? - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Did Dylan shoot himself with the TEC-9?   Did Dylan shoot himself with the TEC-9? - Page 2 Icon_minitimeMon Feb 19, 2018 8:21 am

Didn't Dylan's mom say she'd do anything to prevent others from seeing BT? I think it means they still exist somewhere, and there's a risk of a possible leak.
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PostSubject: Re: Did Dylan shoot himself with the TEC-9?   Did Dylan shoot himself with the TEC-9? - Page 2 Icon_minitimeMon Feb 19, 2018 8:27 am

test-subject wrote:
Didn't Dylan's mom say she'd do anything to prevent others from seeing BT? I think it means they still exist somewhere, and there's a risk of a possible leak.


A lot of us think that someone somewhere does indeed have a copy of the basement tapes. Now whether they will ever be released or more likely leaked is a different story though.
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PostSubject: Re: Did Dylan shoot himself with the TEC-9?   Did Dylan shoot himself with the TEC-9? - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSun Feb 24, 2019 3:50 am

when Klebold was moved, he fell unto the TEC-DC9, and only his Stevens 311D can be seen in the forward shot.
What interests me is why the 995 is closer to him and why the strap is on his hand instead of Harris.
Also, another key factor is that the spent 9mm casing near the two. 
Based on its position, it was fired from the DC9, had it been fired from the 995, it would have been further away.
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PostSubject: Re: Did Dylan shoot himself with the TEC-9?   Did Dylan shoot himself with the TEC-9? - Page 2 Icon_minitimeThu Mar 07, 2019 4:11 pm

Bodies are routinely moved and photographed in multiple positions, after removing items from pockets and other hidden areas to photograph them. That's nothing to be alarmed about.

What caused alarm with the leaked suicide photos is the assumption that they were the initial photographs taken immediately after walking into the crime scene. The public's ignorance of crime scene investigation combined with the false assumption that all crime scene photographs are taken at the time of the initial walk through before anything is moved caused all kinds of unnecessary speculation.

First of all, we don't have any idea in what context their bodies were photographed in those two photos. That information was not released. Second, the photos are not competent photos, which is a technical term that means they aren't high quality enough to form conclusions based on what you see. This even applies to the enhanced photos. Enhancements might adjust contrast lighting and levels, but it doesn't increase resolution, so while it makes some things clear, it doesn't make them competent photographs, which makes analyzing them accurately nearly impossible. To describe it from the perspective of the profession of crime scene investigation.

According to the evidence, the bullet that ended Dylan's life was never recovered in full. His wound was was consistent with 9mm, but the actual bullet that caused his death was not recovered and it was concluded he shot himself with the Tec9M. Being unable to recover and/or trace bullets is common, too.
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PostSubject: Re: Did Dylan shoot himself with the TEC-9?   Did Dylan shoot himself with the TEC-9? - Page 2 Icon_minitimeThu Mar 07, 2019 4:15 pm

The strap around Dylan is from the Tec, not the Carbine.
It's impossible to presume the 9mm casing near them was fired from the Tec based on looking at the photos, that's speculation. Unless you trace it by its evidence # back to the evidence log and other logs that document which shot was fired from which gun.

It's also speculation to say the casing would have been further away had it been fired from the Carbine.

None of that is possible to tell from a photo. Nobody knows when that round was fired. The round that produced the shell you're talking about could have been fired at any point in time during the attack.

I highly recommend studying criminal justice at least for a few classes before trying to analyze these photos or the crime scene itself. It will save you literally hundreds of hours of fruitless speculation and wasted energy following incorrect trails that will become clear after a few classes.
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PostSubject: Re: Did Dylan shoot himself with the TEC-9?   Did Dylan shoot himself with the TEC-9? - Page 2 Icon_minitimeThu Mar 07, 2019 4:22 pm

I wonder what could have happened to the bullet? How was it not recovered?

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PostSubject: Re: Did Dylan shoot himself with the TEC-9?   Did Dylan shoot himself with the TEC-9? - Page 2 Icon_minitimeThu Mar 07, 2019 4:36 pm

Based on memory, what they did recover appeared to be 9mm but was not in tact enough to trace to the Tec. Pretty common when a bullet travels all the way through a person's body :/
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PostSubject: Re: Did Dylan shoot himself with the TEC-9?   Did Dylan shoot himself with the TEC-9? - Page 2 Icon_minitimeThu Mar 07, 2019 4:37 pm

I'll eventually add this to the pages of information I'm documenting on the site I'm launching since it's a pretty hot topic! With cited references of course. Years ago I was a walking file cabinet for what page to find this info on but not anymore!
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PostSubject: Re: Did Dylan shoot himself with the TEC-9?   Did Dylan shoot himself with the TEC-9? - Page 2 Icon_minitimeThu Mar 07, 2019 5:00 pm

EthanEmerson wrote:
Based on memory, what they did recover appeared to be 9mm but was not in tact enough to trace to the Tec. Pretty common when a bullet travels all the way through a person's body :/

Thanks Ethan!

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PostSubject: Re: Did Dylan shoot himself with the TEC-9?   Did Dylan shoot himself with the TEC-9? - Page 2 Icon_minitimeThu Mar 07, 2019 5:15 pm

No prob! I'm glad some things stick in my brain that are useful Razz

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PostSubject: Re: Did Dylan shoot himself with the TEC-9?   Did Dylan shoot himself with the TEC-9? - Page 2 Icon_minitimeThu Mar 07, 2019 11:55 pm

Dylan indeed shot himself with his Tec-9, and it has been proven that Eric killed himself first.
So with that in mind, logic tells me he saw Eric blow half of his head off with his shotgun, and decided he wanted a "cleaner" death.

Maybe he actually thought about his parents for a split second, and wanted to try and make sure he was in decent shape for a viewing. Who knows.

It is also true that their bodies were moved and rummaged through before the infamous suicide photos were taken.
This caused a lot of conspiracy theories in the community, such as Eric killing Dylan, and Dylan taking off his rings and jewelry before ending his life.

I believe Dylan was face down on Eric's leg and was turned over before the photos were taken, but I'm not sure on how much Eric's body was moved from it's original position.
If only Patrick Ireland wasn't so badly wounded, we would probably have an answer to what their final dialogue was, if there was any at all.
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PostSubject: Re: Did Dylan shoot himself with the TEC-9?   Did Dylan shoot himself with the TEC-9? - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri Mar 08, 2019 12:09 am

Couple more things to add:

Dylan did land on Eric's knee when the bullet entered his head, but he aspirated blood, so he rolled over onto his back soon after. He had to have been alive to aspirate blood. Unless someone else was present when he was shot, Dylan rolled over onto his back by himself, and was not rolled by another person.

Also, the blood flow across his face that you see could only have happened while he was both alive and on his back. (In other words, he wouldn't have that blood flow across his face if he had been turned over by law enforcement entering the crime scene hours after he died).
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PostSubject: Re: Did Dylan shoot himself with the TEC-9?   Did Dylan shoot himself with the TEC-9? - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri Mar 08, 2019 12:45 am

EthanEmerson wrote:
Couple more things to add:

Dylan did land on Eric's knee when the bullet entered his head, but he aspirated blood, so he rolled over onto his back soon after. He had to have been alive to aspirate blood. Unless someone else was present when he was shot, Dylan rolled over onto his back by himself, and was not rolled by another person.

Also, the blood flow across his face that you see could only have happened while he was both alive and on his back. (In other words, he wouldn't have that blood flow across his face if he had been turned over by law enforcement entering the crime scene hours after he died).

Interesting point.
It's been years since I've read it, but I could of sworn I read a coroner's report where they mentioned Eric's brain matter falling out when moving his body, and Dylan being turned over onto his back.

It's known that Dylan did aspirate on his blood, and involuntary body spasms are possible, but I'm not quite sure if I believe that he flipped himself over after shooting himself in the head.


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PostSubject: Re: Did Dylan shoot himself with the TEC-9?   Did Dylan shoot himself with the TEC-9? - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri Mar 08, 2019 1:01 am

It does seem strange that he'd move so far but it is possible, especially if he was already leaning slightly to the right after falling on Eric's knee, it would have been the natural direction of his body to move based on "gravity" aka his body weight.

If Dylan didn't flip himself over, someone else was there when the bullet went into his head and flipped him over quickly.

Based on the trajectory of the bullet, though, it would have been very difficult for Dylan to achieve that trajectory with his right hand using the Tec. Take the measurements of the Tec DC9M and cut out a cardboard version and just try to get your finger around the trigger AND put the barrel to your head to achieve the same slightly front-to-back angle and you have to be a complete monkey to even get close.

I believe that the Tec was the gun that fired the fatal shot for Dylan. I'm not so convinced he pulled the trigger with his right hand after recreating the measurements of the weapon it was one of the biggest WTF moments of my life as a researcher. Maybe I'll recreate it again and post a video to show how challenging it is. I mean, I had to twist my head and shoulders and arms around like a pretzel to even get close. It doesn't seem humanly possible. I'd love to see someone tall with long arms and longer fingers and bigger hands like Dylan try it because I know I have shorter arms than most people my height (5'9").

I do have a theory on the way they could have died that I haven't seen mentioned by anyone else, and it's a possibility that would account for the strange trajectory and Dylan falling on Eric's knee and immediately moving to his back, and I hesitate to post it right now when my thoughts are scattered, but I will add it to the list of things I need to type up and post... I swear I'm not just saying that haha I really will type all this stuff up... I just have a lot on my plate but this is a good topic to revisit from multiple angles...
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PostSubject: Re: Did Dylan shoot himself with the TEC-9?   Did Dylan shoot himself with the TEC-9? - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri Mar 08, 2019 1:17 am

EthanEmerson wrote:


Based on the trajectory of the bullet, though, it would have been very difficult for Dylan to achieve that trajectory with his right hand using the Tec. Take the measurements of the Tec DC9M and cut out a cardboard version and just try to get your finger around the trigger AND put the barrel to your head to achieve the same slightly front-to-back angle and you have to be a complete monkey to even get close.

I believe that the Tec was the gun that fired the fatal shot for Dylan. I'm not so convinced he pulled the trigger with his right hand after recreating the measurements of the weapon it was one of the biggest WTF moments of my life as a researcher.


You do know that Dylan was left handed right?
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PostSubject: Re: Did Dylan shoot himself with the TEC-9?   Did Dylan shoot himself with the TEC-9? - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri Mar 08, 2019 1:29 am

I kinda wish there was someone who lived near me who could demonstrate the theory with me at least to show the possibility with two people. I kinda moved to the middle of nowhere. Although, I could probably get someone around here to demo if I blur out their face... it's fascinating to me because so many things sound logical but then when you put them to the test it's like... WHAT??? Wait a minute, Horatio!
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PostSubject: Re: Did Dylan shoot himself with the TEC-9?   Did Dylan shoot himself with the TEC-9? - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri Mar 08, 2019 1:30 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] of course. And the Tec was found under the grip/fingers of his right hand.
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PostSubject: Re: Did Dylan shoot himself with the TEC-9?   Did Dylan shoot himself with the TEC-9? - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri Mar 08, 2019 2:31 am

Not just the blood on his face but the large pool of blood near his head, yes? There is some blood and the hat on/near Eric's legs but presumably that's where the large pool would be if he was rolled over by police 3 hours after dying.
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PostSubject: Re: Did Dylan shoot himself with the TEC-9?   Did Dylan shoot himself with the TEC-9? - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri Mar 08, 2019 12:24 pm

Yes, that too!

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PostSubject: Re: Did Dylan shoot himself with the TEC-9?   Did Dylan shoot himself with the TEC-9? - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSat Mar 09, 2019 2:18 am

I am not sure which way the TEC-9 is facing on the floor.  His right hand makes you think the handle or whatever it's called is sticking out, but the diagrams actually show the gun facing the other way. Handle to the south rather than north, I guess. If they are correct, he's not gripping anything, just his fingers curled a bit.


Also, we seem to assume he fell face down on Eric's legs, and I could well be wrong, but that doesn't seem right to me at the moment.  Looks to me like he went to his knees facing north, not east, and shot himself with his left hand on the left side (don't know why you'd think otherwise), and then from the force of the shot landed with sideways with his right, exit wound side on Eric's legs, hence the blood, and the momentum having him bounce a bit and the imbalance of landing on his side making him turn onto his back.  Seems to me like his legs and the hat would be quite different if he faced east and fell forward.
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PostSubject: Re: Did Dylan shoot himself with the TEC-9?   Did Dylan shoot himself with the TEC-9? - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSat Mar 09, 2019 11:51 am

Dylan's brain matter and blood spatter were found (DNA reports) on Eric's left knee and partly between Eric's legs (brain matter) - this can be found in the reports - DNA was traced to Dylan. The blood spatter on Eric's knee was from the exit wound (Dylan's right temple).

So, it's not an assumption, Dylan really did fall to Eric's knee and Dylan's right temple was somewhat facing Eric's left knee when the bullet went through his head (to produce the blood spatter and brain matter from the exit wound). The concentration of the spatter is too intense for him to have been far from Eric at the time.

Also, there is a blood smear on Dylan's left elbow that would align perfectly with a blood smear on Eric's body if you rolled Dylan over onto Eric. It's been 10+ years so I can't tell you from memory - I used to have a detailed documentation on this on my site years ago citing all the evidence for this. Actually, I was the first person to even suggest all of this to the research community and posted it publicly since I was doing a presentation on it for my criminal justice class at the time (way back in the early 2000s)

Also, one of the sketches indicates Dylan's body moved upward toward the bookshelves with a big arrow and the words "move down" - (the words "move down" indicate that the true position of his body should be further down) so he not only rolled onto his back but he ended up further up toward the bookshelf which actually doesn't make sense for involuntary spasms.

The initial sketch in one section of the reports was drawn with the Tec incorrectly (since the Tec was under his leg at the time of the sketch they likely couldn't see it well) but I believe the diagram you have here is the correct version that was corrected. And it is definitely not being gripped, just that his fingers are resting over it.
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PostSubject: Re: Did Dylan shoot himself with the TEC-9?   Did Dylan shoot himself with the TEC-9? - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSat Mar 09, 2019 1:11 pm

Holy smokes I just caught something minor that has huge implications for this discussion and more so for those of us who were researching from the past.

I need to do more documenting to comment on what this might mean in bigger terms, but Dylans gun was a TECDC9M, and the measurements that I had were from a TECDC9, the 9M is a bit shorter perhaps by a couple inches but I need to get manufacturer specs to find out. (There are all kinds of TEC9s - 9, 9K, 9M, 9S, 9MK, 9MS) and the M models are all shorter than the others.

It doesn't mean much other than it would make it easier for Dylan to have used his right hand to shoot himself with the trajectory described in reports. EasiER, but not necessarily plausible considering the bullet's trajectory.

What's baffling is how he managed to shoot himself with that trajectory and have his exit wound over Eric's knee. That is baffling. It's not something you can see by looking at the photos you have to actually get a cardboard cutout or exact replica of the TECDC9M and put your body into the position to achieve a slightly front to back angle AND make your right temple face what would be Eric's knee... when you get down on the floor and try it, you will feel like a pretzel and the entire thing will feel absurd that Dylan used his right hand to pull the trigger against his left temple.


**Edited to add, I am not a conspiracy theorist. I have had far too many life experiences to be one of "those" people. However, there are things about the photos (even if they are not the initial photos) and diagrams that don't make sense. Well, first, the photos appear to match the diagrams, which would make them the initial photos. That's its own conversation. But, I did take criminal justice in college just to better understand the reports and came away with some interesting knowledge about crime scene investigation.

I haven't revisited this conversation in at least ten years, and I just pulled up the photos and diagrams to look at after all this time and I am seeing more than I saw before. That's how it is with everything in life... time passes and you step away from a project and when you come back you can see more clearly.

Anyway, this conversation has inspired me to dig up my former research and look at it again and write up a page about this on my research site because it seems like people researching today don't have access to some of the documents and data that have been released and it would answer so many questions to have a page on this subject where you can just click to pull up the evidence you're looking for... like the DNA reports, the evidence found around the bodies, etc.

I was going to leave this subject off the site but I think I'm going to include it but I can't post the photos but I'm sure everyone can get them from somewhere else. It's frustrating to know where this information is, and not be able to just point it out.


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PostSubject: Re: Did Dylan shoot himself with the TEC-9?   Did Dylan shoot himself with the TEC-9? - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSat Mar 09, 2019 1:34 pm

.....but nobody thinks he used his right hand, he was left handed, held it with his left hand on the cctv
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PostSubject: Re: Did Dylan shoot himself with the TEC-9?   Did Dylan shoot himself with the TEC-9? - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSat Mar 09, 2019 1:39 pm

Laymen believe he used his left hand. Law enforcement believe he used his right hand. Not only is his right hand over the grip, but the strap is around his body in a way that would not have given him access to the gun to use with his left hand. (Unless he readjusted the strap and switched hands after he died which is not likely - rather impossible).
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PostSubject: Re: Did Dylan shoot himself with the TEC-9?   Did Dylan shoot himself with the TEC-9? - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSat Mar 09, 2019 1:42 pm

"Not only is his right hand over the grip"

Just showed that it wasn't if the diagrams are correct.

Even if that's what law enforcement thinks, law enforcement also thinks they were going to shoot from the parking lot and the bombs were planted during the tape change.

Don't see what you mean about the straps. He carried the TEC in his left hand the whole massacre as far as I can tell. So, he would've had to change the straps before he died for no reason.
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PostSubject: Re: Did Dylan shoot himself with the TEC-9?   Did Dylan shoot himself with the TEC-9? - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSat Mar 09, 2019 1:53 pm

Here's what my CJ instructor was really impressed with when I pointed it out in my presentation on this crime scene... and he had 30 years in the field... there is a blood smear on Dylans inner right bicep that would match up perfectly with the blood smear on Eric's left boot toe if you rolled Dylan onto Eric's leg slightly. Most likely, the blood was on Eric's boot and transferred to Dylan's right bicep when Dylan landed on Eric. He said that was spot on, no pun intended.

However, the blood smear on Dylan's outer left bicep just near his elbow is very concerning. It could have come from anything, of course. But I can't trace it back with the DNA reports, it might be somewhere in the reports but I just haven't found it.

I wish I had the presentation still. Details don't escape me. I can see things most people can't. I walk into a DMV and can read the eye charts on just about any work station before I even get in line... I almost pursued a career in CSI when I did this presentation and my instructor gave me his feedback on what I was able to see from the reports. But I knew I couldn't stomach it long-term.

Looking at the fine details are so important if you want to get a better idea of what happened... and what didn't happen... and I'm not saying I know everything that happened. There have been plenty of times when I thought I saw something and I realized later I was completely wrong. I'm always learning more and seeing more. Look deeper! There are so many assumptions made from looking at the photos that need closer examination!
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PostSubject: Re: Did Dylan shoot himself with the TEC-9?   Did Dylan shoot himself with the TEC-9? - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSat Mar 09, 2019 1:56 pm

Here's a bit about CSI and sketches vs. computerized diagrams.

The initial sketches indicate that his right hand was over the grip when they walked in. That's not debatable.

The computerized sketches you posted are simplified versions of the initial sketches, which were drawn by hand originally.

You can't use the computerized sketches as a source for details. It's not a detailed sketch, it's a simplified version.

Doesn't matter if he had the strap around him and was using his left hand for 48 hours before he died. The gun grip was found under his right hand and it is not possible for a person to switch hands after they shoot themselves.
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PostSubject: Re: Did Dylan shoot himself with the TEC-9?   Did Dylan shoot himself with the TEC-9? - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSat Mar 09, 2019 2:01 pm

"So, he would've had to change the straps before he died for no reason."

Who knows why he switched hands. You can't conclude he did this for "no reason." That's a dangerous assumption to make. What you're really saying here is that you don't agree that he shot himself using his right hand because he was left handed, and therefore the evidence that proves otherwise is bogus because he had no reason to switch hands."

Your "because" statement for proving your position is not logical and is a total assumption.

"He didn't use his right hand to pull the trigger because he was left handed and would have had no reason to switch hands" is what I'm hearing you say.

The evidence says otherwise. Yes, he was left handed, but no, he did not pull the trigger with his left hand.

You can look at the evidence, or you can make up your own ideas... but the initial sketches have his right hand over that grip.

You posted with the computerized diagram:
"His right hand makes you think the handle or whatever it's called is sticking out"
In the diagram you posted, that's the barrel of the TEC sticking out exactly as it is in the initial sketches... I think you're misinterpreting the drawing of the TEC backwards. They even drew the short threaded barrel at the end.

The only thing this computerized image got incorrect was that the TEC is horizontally flipped. Meaning, the trigger area was facing away from Dylan's body. In this computerized version the trigger area is facing toward Dylan's body.

But this diagram has the barrel sticking out from Dylan's leg which is correct and matches the initial sketches.
Computerized sketches are created after the fact, and whoever created this one flipped the gun not vertically like you suggest, but horizontally.

These details matter!
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PostSubject: Re: Did Dylan shoot himself with the TEC-9?   Did Dylan shoot himself with the TEC-9? - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSat Mar 09, 2019 2:19 pm

EthanEmerson wrote:
"So, he would've had to change the straps before he died for no reason."

Who knows why he switched hands. You can't conclude he did this for "no reason." That's a dangerous assumption to make. What you're really saying here is that you don't agree that he shot himself using his right hand because he was left handed, and therefore the evidence that proves otherwise is bogus because he had no reason to switch hands."

Your "because" statement for proving your position is not logical and is a total assumption.

"He didn't use his right hand to pull the trigger because he was left handed and would have had no reason to switch hands" is what I'm hearing you say.

The evidence says otherwise. Yes, he was left handed, but no, he did not pull the trigger with his left hand.

You can look at the evidence, or you can make up your own ideas... but the initial sketches have his right hand over that grip.

You posted with the computerized diagram:
"His right hand makes you think the handle or whatever it's called is sticking out"
In the diagram you posted, that's the barrel of the TEC sticking out exactly as it is in the initial sketches... I think you're misinterpreting the drawing of the TEC backwards. They even drew the short threaded barrel at the end.

The only thing this computerized image got incorrect was that the TEC is horizontally flipped. Meaning, the trigger area was facing away from Dylan's body. In this computerized version the trigger area is facing toward Dylan's body.

But this diagram has the barrel sticking out from Dylan's leg which is correct and matches the initial sketches.
Computerized sketches are created after the fact, and whoever created this one flipped the gun not vertically like you suggest, but horizontally.

These details matter!

You're the one saying the trajectory/etc makes no sense if he shot himself with his right hand. I'm saying everything we know already makes that make no sense. Yes, I'm saying you need to give a reason for him to switch the straps from how they were for the whole rest of the massacre, and yes I'm saying because he was left handed and shot himself on the left side with the gun he carried during the massacre in his left hand, he shot himself with his left hand.  That couldn't be more logical. It is all too typical for people to use "logical" to mean "smart; agrees with me" not "a conclusion entailed by the premises".

"but the initial sketches have his right hand over that grip." You literally said yourself the diagram I used was correct and it has the grip facing in the complete other direction. The grip is facing south, not north, so his hand isn't over it at all. All the other weapons are oriented correctly. I see no reason to say they would get a major detail like that wrong.
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PostSubject: Re: Did Dylan shoot himself with the TEC-9?   Did Dylan shoot himself with the TEC-9? - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSat Mar 09, 2019 2:23 pm

I'm saying the trajectory of the bullet would have been difficult to achieve but not impossible.

Your conclusions contradict the evidence and are pure assumption.

No, the diagram you posted is not correct in the way you think I'm saying. It's a horizontal flip, not a vertical flip. You think the stock of the gun is sticking out from under his leg. That's the barrel...
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PostSubject: Re: Did Dylan shoot himself with the TEC-9?   Did Dylan shoot himself with the TEC-9? - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSat Mar 09, 2019 2:26 pm

They are not assumptions, they are logical inferences.

No, I'm literally saying that without a vertical flip of the gun, the grip isn't sticking out, and so his hand isn't anywhere near it. If his hand were between his legs, it would be closer to the grip.
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PostSubject: Re: Did Dylan shoot himself with the TEC-9?   Did Dylan shoot himself with the TEC-9? - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSat Mar 09, 2019 2:26 pm

Computerized sketches are reconstructed using the initial sketches from the walk through.
They are prone to errors, that's the nature of the job.

That's why you need to look at the initial sketches for the details. This is just a fact of the profession, which is why I again suggest studying criminal justice and CSI so all of these assumptions would be quelled and you wouldn't be wasting so much time chasing assumptions...
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PostSubject: Re: Did Dylan shoot himself with the TEC-9?   Did Dylan shoot himself with the TEC-9? - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSat Mar 09, 2019 2:27 pm

Inferences are assumptions. Not evidence based. Evidence contradicts your inferences.
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PostSubject: Re: Did Dylan shoot himself with the TEC-9?   Did Dylan shoot himself with the TEC-9? - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSat Mar 09, 2019 2:28 pm

You aren't seeing the diagram correctly...
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PostSubject: Re: Did Dylan shoot himself with the TEC-9?   Did Dylan shoot himself with the TEC-9? - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSat Mar 09, 2019 2:37 pm

"Inferences are assumptions" Just no. Swing and a miss.  No detective would say this.

"Not evidence based" Dylan being left handed, shooting himself on the left side, and carrying the TEC in his left hand is all evidence. That he shot himself with his left hand is the logical inference, based on those facts. None of those are assumptions. If other evidence contradicts it, fair enough - but that doesn't make any of that an assumption. And the other evidence would need an explanation given the above.

"you wouldn't be wasting so much time chasing assumptions" I'm not the one trying forever to reconstruct the scene with him shooting himself on the left side with his right hand.

"You aren't seeing the diagram correctly"
Explain how. It's clear that for his hand to be on the grip, his hand would have to be between his legs.
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PostSubject: Re: Did Dylan shoot himself with the TEC-9?   Did Dylan shoot himself with the TEC-9? - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSat Mar 09, 2019 2:42 pm

That's the flip I'm talking about - I thought you were referencing a vertical flip of the gun not horizontal. And again, you need to refer to the initial diagram that was sketched, not the computerized versions because they are going to be simplified and not 100% detailed. The initial sketches are the only sketches you should be looking at when determining details.

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PostSubject: Re: Did Dylan shoot himself with the TEC-9?   Did Dylan shoot himself with the TEC-9? - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSat Mar 09, 2019 2:44 pm

All I can say is that the amount of ignorance regarding how scenes are sketched and the process of computerizing the sketches afterward (with mistakes like this being common and not a red flag at all) is making so many people chase themselves in circles, invent conspiracy theories, and this is just one example.
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PostSubject: Re: Did Dylan shoot himself with the TEC-9?   Did Dylan shoot himself with the TEC-9? - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSat Mar 09, 2019 2:50 pm

That is a vertical flip. Down rather than up is vertical. The axis is horizontal, but the flip is vertical.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Everything else about that diagram is correct looking at the photos, and we don't see a pistol grip in the photos. It's not a matter of if it's "simplified and not 100% detailed", it's a matter of whether a major detail like the TEC-9's orientation is correct in the diagram. If it is, his right hand is not anywhere near the grip. It is near the top of the gun, not the bottom. Period.

"the amount of ignorance", "chase themselves in circles, invent conspiracy theories" It'd be nice if you weren't so smug acting like "Dylan who is left handed shot himself on the left side with his left hand" is a 'conspiracy theory' while the actual conspiracy theory is that this is false and so e. g. Eric must have shot him. It's literally "I've recreated the scene a million times trying to make it where he shoots himself on the left side with his right hand and it doesn't work" vs "Oh, but he was left handed", with the former humorously saying the latter is going down a rabbit hole.
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PostSubject: Re: Did Dylan shoot himself with the TEC-9?   Did Dylan shoot himself with the TEC-9? - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSat Mar 09, 2019 6:46 pm

I was referencing a horizontal flip from the perspective of the other angle, so we were saying the same thing but I was picturing the other photo. Now I understand what you're saying.

You have completely misinterpreted what I've said so I'll lay it out in a list:

1. The original sketch shows the TEC with Dylan's fingers resting over the grip, and this matches the photos. The photos also show his hand resting over the grip.

2. The computerized sketches are not supposed to be exact - they serve other purposes, and if you want the details, you need to refer to the original sketches. The computerized versions of the scene are created by referencing the original sketches, and whoever created this one got the orientation of the gun incorrect and that happens all the time, that is why you always refer to the initial sketches for information (this is what investigators do and we need to do as well to be accurate)

3. I never said nor implied that it is a conspiracy theory that Dylan shot himself in the head with his left hand.

4. The question asked in this thread is if Dylan shot himself with the Tec, and I answered that we don't know for a fact because the bullet was not traceable to the Tec. That doesn't mean anything other than "the bullet was never traced to the Tec"

5. I never said Eric must have shot Dylan. Now you're not only putting words in my mouth, but forming conclusions and attributing them to me.

6. When I said I'm not a conspiracy theorist, I meant just that. I'm not trying to invent possibilities of any kind. (Left hand, right hand, maybe he shot himself with his left big toe - maybe an alien killed him?). No, none of that is what I'm saying. I'm just looking at the evidence and I'm not forming conclusions. If I have ideas I label them as ideas or thoughts. I'm pointing out the flaws in the logic of people who go in circles with things that would be put to rest by taking 1 CSI class. I know, because I was going in circles with the same issues until I took my classes in college. But, that's for each person to pursue if they really want to understand what they're looking at here. Most people can't be bothered, and I get that.

7.I'm looking at the evidence and stating the facts. I'm not looking at theories and ideas.
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PostSubject: Re: Did Dylan shoot himself with the TEC-9?   Did Dylan shoot himself with the TEC-9? - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSat Mar 09, 2019 7:49 pm

I'm going to go back over the sources and see where the various references are and when I'm done I'll post clarifying points, because I can see that dialoguing about this is both convoluting and creating meanings that are being expressed in one context and then extracted and inserted into a different context, and it's really confusing.
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PostSubject: Re: Did Dylan shoot himself with the TEC-9?   Did Dylan shoot himself with the TEC-9? - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSun Mar 10, 2019 12:15 am

OK this is the best I could do for today:

Summarized points:

• Dylan’s body was found with his right hand over the GRIP of the Tec-9
• The Tec-9 was found with a loaded magazine and a live round in the chamber
• Dylan’s wound was NEAR CONTACT, through and through, slightly downward, and slightly front to back
• About 1” of drawback in the Tec-9 was traced Dylan
• A mix of blood in the trigger area of the Tec-9 was traced to mostly Eric, some Dylan
• Firearm discharge [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] is believed to be the bullet that killed Dylan – if so, it went through his head 36” above the ground (3 feet)
• DNA analysis on the bullet that killed Dylan was of no value

Dylan’s body position:
1 - “KLEBOLD ([You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]) [from Dr. Galloway] had a near contact wound to his left temple with a corresponding exit wound through his right temple. He also had aspirated blood. He could have been capable of some involuntary movement.” (JC-001-012309) (CBI Report, Team 2, page 12)

Note: “Near contact” means the gun was not touching his head when fired.

2 - “Body [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], DYLAN KLEBOLD… his right arm was extended by his side and his right hand was around the grip of the TEC-9 pistol.” (JC-001-012303) (CBI Report, Team 2, page 6)

3 - “A TEC-9 (Item [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]) with a live round in the chamber was in the right hand and under the right leg of KLEBOLD. It was also attached with a strap to KLEBOLD’S body. At 3:35 p.m. [April 21] under the direction of Jefferson County Coroner’s Office Chief Deputy Coroner Triena Harper, Hammond and Griffin cut the strap holding this firearm and removed it from KLEBOLD’s right hand.” (CBI report, Team 2, page 5)

4 - “There was a bloodstain area on the back of his left arm above the elbow that was not consistent with being formed with the arm in the position found. In addition, some of the blood flows on the face were also formed with the head in a position other than as found. These flows were consistent with KLEBOLDs head resting on the right side of the face to allow the blood flow on the left side out of the wound. There were bloodstains on his right bicep and left center portion of his neck.” (JC-001-012321, 012322)

DNA Profiles on the Tec-9:
1 - “Areas of smudges and/or possible transfers are on the top, left and bottom of the [Tec-9] barrel. There was a flow pattern extending inside the barrel muzzle about 1 to ½ inches.” (CBI, Trace Arson page 3 of 77)

Note: What’s being referred to as a “flow pattern” is also called drawback, and is common for contact/close contact wounds. The person’s blood literally goes back into the barrel a short distance. DNA reports confirmed the drawback in the barrel of the TEC-9 was Dylan’s.

2 - “The DNA profiles developed from items [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] and 23C (Tec 9 pistol) matched the DNA profile from Klebold.” (CBI, DNA Reports, page 53)

Note: Area [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] is the inside of the barrel.

Eric’s blood in the trigger area of the Tec-9:
1 - “The DNA profile from item [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] (Tec 9 pistol) revealed the presence of a mixture. The major component of the DNA profile from this mixture matched the DNA profile from Harris. The minor component of the DNA profile from this mixture was consistent with originating from Klebold.” (CBI, DNA Reports, page 53)

Note: Item [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] is the trigger area of the Tec-9 pistol. You can see the legend for areas [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], B, and C on page 6 of the CBI DNA Report. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] is the outside of the barrel, B is the trigger area, and C is the inside of the barrel.

The bullet that killed Dylan and lack of DNA trace:
1 - “Firearm discharge [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] was the 9mm projectile that killed KLEBOLD. The evidence recovered from discharges 13 and 14 may be the same as this event.” (JC-001-012316)

2 - “Firearm discharge [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] was the 9mm round (item 1124) that perforated the frame at the bottom of Window 6… this trajectory also passed over the area where KLEBOLD’s body was located at a height of approximately 36.” Of all the projectile holes/impacts in this area, discharge [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] was the most consistent (though not exclusively) with being the same as discharge [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] through KLEBOLD. (Note: DNA analysis on pellets and fragments recovered in this area did not have any evidentiary value.)” (JC-001-012317)

Note: If discharge [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] was the bullet that went through Dylan’s head as suggested, then it went through his head at 36” above the ground (3 feet).

Note: The live 9mm round that went through Dylan’s head (JCSO [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]/CBI [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]) was found to have “no value” by the corner. (CBI, Team 2, page 370 relative to the PDF file)

Note: Item [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] (9mm bullet that killed Dylan) was not traced to any specific gun. In the massive list of all shots fired and their origins in the CBI report, at the very end is a section listing 57 items that are labeled “Also Submitted” and were not traced to a specific weapon. Item [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] (the bullet that went through Dylan’s head) is among these items. (JC-001-012206)

Re: Sketches and diagrams
The two lab technicians who created the sketches and computerized diagrams were Tom Adair from the Arapahoe County Sheriff’s Office (Team One), and Laura DeLong from the Arapahoe County Sheriff’s Office (Team Two). Both were senior lab technicians.

The problem with looking at diagrams:
When looking at a diagram that has an inaccurate detail, or a missing piece of evidence, it seems logical to conclude that a detective made a mistake. That’s not the case. Diagrams aren’t that simple. When you look at any diagram, what you’re looking at is not a finished product, but a piece out of an entire process that requires knowledge of the rest of the pieces to interpret correctly. Those pieces include all the other diagrams made by the field tech, including CAD documents and their field notes.

Yes, I am saying that you can’t interpret a single diagram without referencing all other diagrams and field notes. You can’t isolate a diagram from a lab tech’s field notes. If you do, you aren’t looking at the diagram in its proper context.

Diagrams go through a rigorous process to refine the accuracy of the details. Diagrams are also created for different purposes and will show different aspects of the crime scene and omit other aspects intentionally. Any given diagram you look at won’t be “complete” or accurate, not because “detectives messed up” but because the process of diagraming a crime scene isn’t a one-diagram process. Some diagrams are created to show only certain types of evidence (like shotgun-related evidence), or non-shotgun related evidence, or furniture, or just explosives. And what we have with the documents released from the Columbine investigation are not just final or selected diagrams. They released everything in-between. All the diagrams of the in-between stages that were in print format, that's what we've got. And many of them have inaccurate details including the location and angles of evidence, not because someone messed up, but because they're part of the diagraming process.

When you look at a diagram, you don’t know what you’re looking at unless you’ve got the tech’s field notes and have analyzed all other diagrams they’ve produced to see where the diagram you’re looking at fits in with their process.

Looking at a single diagram is looking at part of a process, but when you don’t understand the process, you think you’re looking at an end result.

After the initial sketch and walk through, diagrams are drawn and redrawn multiple times over and over again as the details are compared with other notes, photos, and videos of the scene. The lab techs who sketch and diagram a crime scene literally review each piece of evidence against photographic and video evidence to ensure they’ve positioned it correctly in their sketch. And it’s not always to scale. At least not until the end.

As the tech verifies each piece of evidence (which includes casings, fragments, burns, fibers, bodies, furniture, etc.), they redraw the diagram over and over and use symbols (their own legend) to indicate which items on that particular version of the diagram have been verified, moved, changed, or whatever. For example, Tom Griffin (one tech on the library team) used a triangle to indicate a fragment, a circle to indicate a live cartridge, a square to indicate a casing, and a half circle closed by a straight line to indicate a bomb fragment. That was his personal legend. Looking at his diagrams without knowing his legend would be confusing.

Similarly, as each new diagram is produced with more details that have been refined for accuracy, a tech will mark off the evidence they’ve verified. Specific to the library, Laura DeLong’s process was to go through and mark evidence numbers with an X or an O as she verified the position of 279 pieces of evidence against 1200 photographs (JC-001-012244). She created multiple diagrams in the process, and many of those diagrams were created with Auto CAD software, and we don’t know if we have all of her sketches.

While we can see a handful of different versions of diagrams created by DeLong, it’s clear that she’s marking off various pieces of evidence as she goes. Her notes also describe EXACTLY what she changes in the diagrams as she makes corrections and produces new versions of the diagrams. The changes include things like moving items, deleting duplicate evidence numbers, changing point layers, adding item numbers, and using symbols to more accurately locate evidence. For example, she duplicated evidence [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] and re-identified it as [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]. (Library Team 2, page JC-001-012736) There’s only one thing DeLong doesn’t change/correct in the diagrams – evidence around Eric and Dylan’s bodies.

The evidence around Eric and Dylan was not corrected due to space constraints on the diagram, according to DeLong. So when you look at a diagram that includes their bodies, there’s no way to know at what stage in the diagram process it was made, nor if it was before or after any corrections to the evidence found around and on their bodies.

We know Dylan was found with his hand around the grip – that was reported and recorded from the initial walk through.

Note that DeLong re-drew all the small sketches of chairs and table holes that were scattered through her notes, except for the chair by Dylan’s body. And some evidence numbers in certain revised sketches (evidence numbers that aren’t marked with an X) were not precisely measured and were placed relative to another object instead. (012753). This is normal! It’s part of the process. But you need to know how the process works to be able to know what you’re looking at before forming conclusions.

“The stacked evidence item numbers around the bodies of Klebold and Harris (B11 and B12) were pieces of clothing, evidence found within the clothing, or items of weaponry.” (012754)
(Side note: Dylan did not take off his jewelry and place it in a pile before he died, it was removed from his body and bagged up together - normal practice).

The original sketch made by DeLong can be found on page JC-001-012757 but the position of the Tec is unclear. Unfortunately, this sketch is the only original sketch released.

Another partially computerized sketch can be found on page JC-001-012800. It’s in this diagram that the position of the TEC is defined, but it’s not the final sketch fully verified against photos and other evidence. Here’s how I know this is not a final, fully verified sketch: you can see the “X”s on some evidence items (the X’s indicate verified evidence) and you can also see many evidence items without “X”s, which means, this is not a final sketch depicting a complete and verified crime scene. And since DeLong never placed “X”s on any of the evidence on or around Dylan and Eric’s bodies on purpose for space reasons, we will never know if the position of the TEC here was ever corrected. However, what we do know, based on Team Two’s findings, which are noted and cited in the beginning of this post, is that Dylan was found specifically with his right hand resting over the GRIP of the Tec-9. It’s not a red flag that the diagrams we have don’t match the position. When you understand the diagraming process, this becomes super clear.

DeLong explains that in early versions of her diagrams, she guestimated locations “pending further information from Adair (another senior lab technician from Team One), ” because coordinates were transposed (they use more than photographs to construct computerized diagrams to show where evidence was found – this leads to mistakes – it’s normal), and “mis-read information.” When these mistakes are discovered, they regenerate the diagram.
(For an example of this documented process, see page 001-012642 of Team 2) Keep scrolling for plenty of revision notes.

The first diagram DeLong created was just a basic layout of the room and position of furniture and bodies.

Through 4-28 to 6-25, DeLong added the locations of all the evidence to the diagrams. Then, on 5-12 and 6-3, she met with Tom Griffin at CBI to compare the photos of the scene to her notes to verify the positions of evidence.

On 6-29, DeLong met at the scene with others originally at the scene to discuss the correlation of evidence with witness statements. They viewed the photos again and compared them to the diagrams and the scene itself and she realized she needed to shift positions of chairs, rotate Eric Harris’ right foot, and add a few items of evidence. (012654).

Between 6-30 and 7-2, DeLong modified the diagram again as indicated in her report dated 6-30.

DeLong prepared multiple versions of diagrams for different purposes including:

Diagrams with only furniture
Diagrams with bodies
Shotgun related evidence items only
Non-shotgun ammo items of evidence including mixed and undetermined ammo
Diagrams with all evidence included
7 pages of detailed enlargements with furniture, bodies, and all evidence items
(JC-001-012655)

Knowing these are all the diagrams she created, it's actually quite clear that we do not have access to all the diagrams and they were probably mostly digital Auto CAD files and we got what was printed.

You need to know what diagram you’re looking at to form any kind of conclusion about what you think you’re seeing.

You also have to look at the evidence logs to see all evidence found around E&Ds bodies and where it was found precisely, since DeLong didn’t have enough room in the diagram to clarify corrections (as she noted). You can see more notes on their body positions (exact) on page JC-001-012703.

In the end, Team Two reported that Dylan's right hand was found around the grip of the Tec-9. That finding matches the photo that was leaked. And the leaked photo matches the description from the initial walk-through. So what part of the Tec Dylan was touching when he was found is pretty much off the table for debate.

“Body [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], DYLAN KLEBOLD… his right arm was extended by his side and his right hand was around the grip of the TEC-9 pistol.” (JC-001-012303) (CBI Report, Team 2, page 6)

**Edited to add, I just want to be clear that I am NOT saying I understand all the diagrams. I'm saying exactly the opposite - that everything is a complete clusterf** and we don't have any type of key or system or legend or list that tells us which diagrams we are looking at, what their context is, etc. Just field notes that are hardly legible, diagram after diagram with various details changed, the log of what was changed, but no way to know what diagram is relative to what changes. It could probably be pinpointed and checked off against the list of changes but who has time for that...
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Did Dylan shoot himself with the TEC-9? - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Did Dylan shoot himself with the TEC-9?   Did Dylan shoot himself with the TEC-9? - Page 2 Icon_minitimeWed Mar 27, 2019 11:22 am

Please do not post diagrams/drawings of Dylan and Eric dead in the Library.

I don't know why people are constantly trying to get around this rule. "No suicide photo" means "no suicide photo" in any way, shape or form which includes diagrams.

Thank you.

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SusyJP




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Did Dylan shoot himself with the TEC-9? - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Did Dylan shoot himself with the TEC-9?   Did Dylan shoot himself with the TEC-9? - Page 2 Icon_minitimeThu Jan 27, 2022 3:28 pm

I just have to point out that the analysis above never included any diagrams or photos in the post. All those links you see are links that go to various tags on the forum. The poster typed in numbers with the hash symbol, which were automatically converted into links to tags.

Kind of like this: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Why is there so much hostility and gaslighting in these research spaces? Seems a bit much to have such a knee-jerk negative reaction to a well thought out post, don't you think? I think you should apologize for chastising the poster over your own mistaken perception of what you thought were links to diagrams, when they were just automatically generated links to tags on your forum.

Just a thought.

Become what you love, right?

PS: All the other people post diagrams without issue. Is there a reason special rules apply to certain researchers? Are you really a Jefferson County official working hard to control all the research spaces online? One has to wonder after all the lies and gaslighting that have been taking place over the last couple of years.
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Did Dylan shoot himself with the TEC-9? - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Did Dylan shoot himself with the TEC-9?   Did Dylan shoot himself with the TEC-9? - Page 2 Icon_minitime

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