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Tommy QTR
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PostSubject: Re: Unpopular opinions    Unpopular opinions  - Page 4 Icon_minitimeMon Dec 31, 2018 5:26 pm

Let's here to what Eric and Dylan themselves have to say about bullying:

Eric Harris wrote:
"Everyone is always making fun of me because how I look, and how fucking weak I am and shit. Well, I'll get you all back: Ultimate fucking revenge here. You people could have shown me more respect, treated me better, asked for my knowledge or guidance more, treated me more like a senior, and maybe I wouldn't have been as ready to tear you're fucking heads off."

Eric Harris wrote:
"I hate all you people for leaving me out of so many fun things. And no don't fucking say 'well that's your fault' because it isn't, you people had my phone number, and I asked and all, but no. No no no don't let the weird looking Eric kid come along. Ohh fucking noo.

Dylan Klebold wrote:
"This is for all the shit you've given us for the past four years!"

But I forgot, bullying wasn't a factor at all, in fact them being tormented is perfectly normal, it's called being in High School. They were both just evil goth psychopaths who were motivated by violent video games and easy access to guns.

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PostSubject: Re: Unpopular opinions    Unpopular opinions  - Page 4 Icon_minitimeMon Dec 31, 2018 5:35 pm

@Tommy QTR wrote:


But I forgot, bullying wasn't a factor at all

I can cite diary entries that go on for paragraphs about how much they hated people simply because they annoyed or were beneath them. Instead, it's much faster to just agree and say "yes, your quote right there was so TOTALLY what I actually said".
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Tommy QTR
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PostSubject: Re: Unpopular opinions    Unpopular opinions  - Page 4 Icon_minitimeMon Dec 31, 2018 5:44 pm

miketheratguy wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:


But I forgot, bullying wasn't a factor at all

I can cite diary entries that go on for paragraphs about how much they hated people simply because they annoyed or were beneath them. Instead, it's much faster to just agree and say "yes, your quote right there was so TOTALLY what I actually said".
I'm not saying bullying was the only motive, obviously not. And my post wasn't against you specifically, but the rather the general attitude that some people here have that bullying wasn't a major factor when it clearly was, but I will agree that bullying wasn't the only motive behind their attack.

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PostSubject: Re: Unpopular opinions    Unpopular opinions  - Page 4 Icon_minitimeMon Dec 31, 2018 7:00 pm

I know it’s hard to say because we can’t talk to them in person but after a long time of being bullied or feeling like you’re not connecting you can either start feeling inferior or superior. They took the latter

I think it was a small factor in a perfect storm But a factor

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thelmar
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PostSubject: Re: Unpopular opinions    Unpopular opinions  - Page 4 Icon_minitimeMon Dec 31, 2018 7:53 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
I know it’s hard to say because we can’t talk to them in person but after a long time of being bullied or feeling like you’re not connecting  you can either start feeling inferior or superior. They took the latter

I think it was a small factor in a perfect storm But a factor

I agree. You can either turn it all inward and blame yourself or, for self preservation, try telling yourself that it's not you, it's them. The reason you aren't accepted is because "they" all have the problem, "they" are all inferior, "they" are just jealous of you.
I know they both wrote about how much better they were than other people but I don't believe that at all. Especially, Dylan. He wrote about being a god just as much as Eric did, but I don't think anyone would argue that Dylan hated everything about himself. You can't be better than everyone and the worst person on earth at the same time. I happen to believe that Eric's self-hatred was just as deep, but for different reasons.
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PostSubject: Re: Unpopular opinions    Unpopular opinions  - Page 4 Icon_minitimeMon Dec 31, 2018 8:22 pm

@thelmar wrote:

I know they both wrote about how much better they were than other people but I don't believe that at all. Especially, Dylan.

I personally absolutely believe it in Eric's case. I feel that he had self-esteem issues yet was also enraged by what he perceived to be mediocrity. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

Dylan is much more debatable.
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PostSubject: Re: Unpopular opinions    Unpopular opinions  - Page 4 Icon_minitimeMon Dec 31, 2018 11:53 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
This doesn't make sense to me. Richard's parents were already divorced. His dad's name is Rick Castaldo, his mom's name is Connie Michalik.
I guess its just more misinformation that was put into the movie. Thanks for your reply. I didnt know that.
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thelmar
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PostSubject: Re: Unpopular opinions    Unpopular opinions  - Page 4 Icon_minitimeTue Jan 01, 2019 12:53 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:

I guess its just more misinformation that was put into the movie. Thanks for your reply. I didnt know that.

Misinformation or "creative license". I'd guess the purpose of showing that Rachel was counseling someone with a problem rather than just having lunch with a friend was to keep hammering home her Christian goodness. Don't get me wrong, I think Rachel was probably a great person, but at this point they've portrayed her as not even human. Even her "faults" are somehow made into purities in the books and films. It's a little sad to me.
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PostSubject: Re: Unpopular opinions    Unpopular opinions  - Page 4 Icon_minitimeTue Jan 01, 2019 3:06 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:

I guess its just more misinformation that was put into the movie. Thanks for your reply. I didnt know that.

Misinformation or "creative license". I'd guess the purpose of showing that Rachel was counseling someone with a problem rather than just having lunch with a friend was to keep hammering home her Christian goodness. Don't get me wrong, I think Rachel was probably a great person, but at this point they've portrayed her as not even human. Even her "faults" are somehow made into purities in the books and films. It's a little sad to me.

I think it's very sad that people seem ton continue to profit off this poor girl's death.

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PostSubject: Re: Unpopular opinions    Unpopular opinions  - Page 4 Icon_minitimeTue Jan 01, 2019 4:16 pm

I think it is sad that they feel the need to make her out to be so saintly rather than just mourn her for who she really was.
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PostSubject: Re: Unpopular opinions    Unpopular opinions  - Page 4 Icon_minitimeWed Jan 02, 2019 6:54 am

I'm just gonna say it: If your biggest problem in life is getting picked on in high school then congrats, you have life on easy mode. Eric crying like a bitch about never getting invited to parties makes me laugh. We all know E&D had friends. But there were kids who had it way worse, had some sort of disability, had ZERO friends,etc. Now do you think either E or D went out of their way do be friends with those type of people as opposed to the popular ones? Hell no. One of their victims had a mental disability FFS. Of the two I hate Eric the most. I fully believe his character wasn't a result of bullying but more the cause of it. Just a guy with "short man syndrome" thinking he's hot shit and everyone should respect him. This will definitely make some people mad but there are some kids who deserve bullying. I didn't know Eric but the dude strikes me as an asshole in his own right and I'm almost certain he probably ran his mouth alot so people put him in his place.

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PostSubject: Re: Unpopular opinions    Unpopular opinions  - Page 4 Icon_minitimeSun Jan 06, 2019 4:04 am

I don't think Eric was a psychopath, and Dylan seemed to be more of a sociopath imo.
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PostSubject: Re: Unpopular opinions    Unpopular opinions  - Page 4 Icon_minitimeSun Jan 06, 2019 2:36 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
I don't think Eric was a psychopath, and Dylan seemed to be more of a sociopath imo.
I'm pretty sure the psychopath thing was spread by Cullen who took it upon himself to diagnose someone dead that he'd never met.

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PostSubject: Re: Unpopular opinions    Unpopular opinions  - Page 4 Icon_minitimeSun Jan 06, 2019 2:44 pm

Is there honestly a debate here on whether or not the dude who mercilessly murdered and maimed a bunch of innocent people is a psychopath? LMAO

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PostSubject: Re: Unpopular opinions    Unpopular opinions  - Page 4 Icon_minitimeSun Jan 06, 2019 2:59 pm

What I find really annoying is that people who say E&D are Psychopaths or Sociopaths clearly have no idea what Anti-Social Personality Disorder is.

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PostSubject: Re: Unpopular opinions    Unpopular opinions  - Page 4 Icon_minitimeSun Jan 06, 2019 3:22 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
What I find really annoying is that people who say E&D are Psychopaths or Sociopaths clearly have no idea what Anti-Social Personality Disorder is.

Anti social disorder - A mental health disorder characterized by disregard for other people.

Psychopathy-  traditionally a personality disorder characterized by persistent antisocial behavior, impaired empathy and remorse, and bold, disinhibited, and egotistical traits

Which one of those falls under considering yourself to be superior to everyone else (egotism) and blowing kids' skulls apart while they beg for their lives under library tables (impaired empathy and remorse)? I think it's the second one buddy

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Last edited by HanShotFirst on Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Tommy QTR
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PostSubject: Re: Unpopular opinions    Unpopular opinions  - Page 4 Icon_minitimeSun Jan 06, 2019 3:27 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
What I find really annoying is that people who say E&D are Psychopaths or Sociopaths clearly have no idea what Anti-Social Personality Disorder is.

Anti social disorder - A mental health disorder characterized by disregard for other people.

Psychopathy-  traditionally a personality disorder characterized by persistent antisocial behavior, impaired empathy and remorse, and bold, disinhibited, and egotistical traits

Which one of those falls under considering yourself to be superior to everyone else and blowing kids' skulls apart while they beg for their lives under library tables? I think it's the second one buddy
Erm you do know the official diagnosis for a Psychopath is Anti Social Personality Disorder right? Just because you can kill someone, that doesn't mean you're a Psychopath.

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PostSubject: Re: Unpopular opinions    Unpopular opinions  - Page 4 Icon_minitimeSun Jan 06, 2019 3:45 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
What I find really annoying is that people who say E&D are Psychopaths or Sociopaths clearly have no idea what Anti-Social Personality Disorder is.

Anti social disorder - A mental health disorder characterized by disregard for other people.

Psychopathy-  traditionally a personality disorder characterized by persistent antisocial behavior, impaired empathy and remorse, and bold, disinhibited, and egotistical traits

Which one of those falls under considering yourself to be superior to everyone else and blowing kids' skulls apart while they beg for their lives under library tables? I think it's the second one buddy
Erm you do know the official diagnosis for a Psychopath is Anti Social Personality Disorder right? Just because you can kill someone, that doesn't mean you're a Psychopath.

Sure killing someone doesn't mean you're a psychopath. There are tons of scenarios for that happening. But we're talking about people who actively planned for a year to murder hundreds of people. Both disorders include anti social behavior. Only one makes you pre-meditate murder on a mass scale. Re-read those official definitions I just gave you. Carefully. Slowly.

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Tommy QTR
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PostSubject: Re: Unpopular opinions    Unpopular opinions  - Page 4 Icon_minitimeSun Jan 06, 2019 3:55 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
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[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
What I find really annoying is that people who say E&D are Psychopaths or Sociopaths clearly have no idea what Anti-Social Personality Disorder is.

Anti social disorder - A mental health disorder characterized by disregard for other people.

Psychopathy-  traditionally a personality disorder characterized by persistent antisocial behavior, impaired empathy and remorse, and bold, disinhibited, and egotistical traits

Which one of those falls under considering yourself to be superior to everyone else and blowing kids' skulls apart while they beg for their lives under library tables? I think it's the second one buddy
Erm you do know the official diagnosis for a Psychopath is Anti Social Personality Disorder right? Just because you can kill someone, that doesn't mean you're a Psychopath.

Sure killing someone doesn't mean you're a psychopath. There are tons of scenarios for that happening. But we're talking about people who actively planned for a year to murder hundreds of people. Both disorders include anti social behavior. Only one makes you pre-meditate murder on a mass scale. Re-read those official definitions I just gave you. Carefully. Slowly.
I think you're missing the fact that a Psychopath has little to no emotion, while Eric and Dylan were full of emotion.

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PostSubject: Unpopular opinions   Unpopular opinions  - Page 4 Icon_minitimeSun Jan 06, 2019 4:03 pm

Psychopaths can have emotion. They tend to not care about those emotions or how they affect others.

The Hare Psychopathy Checklist uses the following criteria for psychopathy:

Glibness/superficial charm
Grandiose sense of self-worth
Pathological lying
Cunning/manipulative
Lack of remorse or guilt
Shallow affect (genuine emotion is short-lived and egocentric)
Callousness; lack of empathy
Failure to accept responsibility for own actions

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PostSubject: Re: Unpopular opinions    Unpopular opinions  - Page 4 Icon_minitimeSun Jan 06, 2019 4:45 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
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What I find really annoying is that people who say E&D are Psychopaths or Sociopaths clearly have no idea what Anti-Social Personality Disorder is.

Anti social disorder - A mental health disorder characterized by disregard for other people.

Psychopathy-  traditionally a personality disorder characterized by persistent antisocial behavior, impaired empathy and remorse, and bold, disinhibited, and egotistical traits

Which one of those falls under considering yourself to be superior to everyone else and blowing kids' skulls apart while they beg for their lives under library tables? I think it's the second one buddy
Erm you do know the official diagnosis for a Psychopath is Anti Social Personality Disorder right? Just because you can kill someone, that doesn't mean you're a Psychopath.

Sure killing someone doesn't mean you're a psychopath. There are tons of scenarios for that happening. But we're talking about people who actively planned for a year to murder hundreds of people. Both disorders include anti social behavior. Only one makes you pre-meditate murder on a mass scale. Re-read those official definitions I just gave you. Carefully. Slowly.
I think you're missing the fact that a Psychopath has little to no emotion, while Eric and Dylan were full of emotion.

Impaired empathy and remorse =/= no emotion. There is nothing in the official defintion of psychopathy there states the person experiences no emotion

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PostSubject: Re: Unpopular opinions    Unpopular opinions  - Page 4 Icon_minitimeSun Jan 06, 2019 4:56 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Psychopaths can have emotion. They tend to not care about those emotions or how they affect others.

The Hare Psychopathy Checklist uses the following criteria for psychopathy:

Glibness/superficial charm
Grandiose sense of self-worth
Pathological lying
Cunning/manipulative
Lack of remorse or guilt
Shallow affect (genuine emotion is short-lived and egocentric)
Callousness; lack of empathy
Failure to accept responsibility for own actions

Thank you! You can almost check off all of those for E&D considering their ENTIRE last year alive was them lying to their families and friends and fooling everyone into thinking they cared for them. Checking out colleges, Dylan going to prom. The list goes on. They systematically detached themselves from everyone around them while simultaneously putting on masks and hiding their intentions. Only someone with psychopathic tendencies could pull that off so eerily flawless as those two boys did

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PostSubject: Unpopular opinions   Unpopular opinions  - Page 4 Icon_minitimeSun Jan 06, 2019 5:09 pm

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Quote :
Thank you! You can almost check off all of those for E&D considering their ENTIRE last year alive was them lying to their families and friends and fooling everyone into thinking they cared for them. Checking out colleges, Dylan going to prom. The list goes on. They systematically detached themselves from everyone around them while simultaneously putting on masks and hiding their intentions. Only someone with psychopathic tendencies could pull that off so eerily flawless as those two boys did
[/quote]
Well said

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PostSubject: Re: Unpopular opinions    Unpopular opinions  - Page 4 Icon_minitimeMon Jan 07, 2019 12:45 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Is there honestly a debate here on whether or not the dude who mercilessly murdered and maimed a bunch of innocent people is a psychopath? LMAO

I'm not buying it, you can be a killer, even a cold blooded one and not be a psychopath.

For me, the reason why I think neither Eric or Dylan was a psychopath was because of one thing each of them had: they both had emotional attachment of some kind. Eric genuinely loved his parents and barely had anything bad to say about them, and also loved his pet dog dearly and animals in general. For everything Eric was a (self-admitted) hypocrite on, he never wavered in his belief that animals were fundamentally good and that people who hurt them were awful. If Eric was a tried and true psychopath, he would never have thought this way. Instead he would've been an animal abuser.

Dylan is a bit different here. He wavered back and forth between hating his family and loving them, but in his journals he talked a lot about how he wanted to pair up with his true love in the afterlife and very early on noted the betrayal and hurt he felt when he perceived his friends as abandoning him or disliking him for one reason or another. If Dylan was psychopathic then he would not have placed so much emphasis on his isolation from his friends or his lack of a love life, because a psychopath wouldn't give a damn what people thought about them.

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PostSubject: Re: Unpopular opinions    Unpopular opinions  - Page 4 Icon_minitimeMon Jan 07, 2019 3:34 am

Quote :
I'm not buying it, you can be a killer, even a cold blooded one and not be a psychopath.

For me, the reason why I think neither Eric or Dylan was a psychopath was because of one thing each of them had: they both had emotional attachment of some kind. Eric genuinely loved his parents and barely had anything bad to say about them, and also loved his pet dog dearly and animals in general. For everything Eric was a (self-admitted) hypocrite on, he never wavered in his belief that animals were fundamentally good and that people who hurt them were awful. If Eric was a tried and true psychopath, he would never have thought this way. Instead he would've been an animal abuser.

Dylan is a bit different here. He wavered back and forth between hating his family and loving them, but in his journals he talked a lot about how he wanted to pair up with his true love in the afterlife and very early on noted the betrayal and hurt he felt when he perceived his friends as abandoning him or disliking him for one reason or another. If Dylan was psychopathic then he would not have placed so much emphasis on his isolation from his friends or his lack of a love life, because a psychopath wouldn't give a damn what people thought about them.

Psychopathy has degrees. A lot of diagnosed psychopaths can experience love, this is all documented. But psychopaths are also aware of their disconnection with the world and this causes them great pain and suffering to the point they actually crave affection. Read either of their journals and it becomes abundently clear. Psychopaths refuse to accept responsibility for what they do. Eric literally blaming the guy he stole from for having computer parts in his van is evidence of this. Psychopaths are largley egotistical. Both boys saw thenselves as superior to everyone to some degree, Eric especially who belived he was smarter and more evolved than everyone. But the most damming evidence is a psychopath's ability to efficiently detach themselves from loved ones. They can have feelings for others but ultimately don't care about causing them pain. I'm just gonna say this: for every question people ask about how they were able to mask their nature for so long, how they could go to school, family holiday functions, how Dylan could take Robyn to prom and stand to look at her and other students knowing what he was gonna do in a few days - how they manipulated people into believing everything was (relatively) normal, etc. All these questions that make this case fascinating surrounding their deception, they do have an answer. And it is definitely not "anti social disorder". What they achieved goes beyond that and that is not what anti social disorder is.

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PostSubject: Re: Unpopular opinions    Unpopular opinions  - Page 4 Icon_minitimeMon Jan 07, 2019 6:47 am

Yes HanShotFirst! Check out Millon’s Ten Subtypes of Psychopathy
There are ranges and types

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

A psychopath isn’t going to always murder his dog. Maybe too much Dexter? Lol
Lots of lawyers, surgeons, car salesman are psychopaths due to the ability to remove emotion from a situation when need be. They’re not always merciless killers. But yes to be a killer in this situation, you’d be a psychopath. Not all killers are psychopaths because murder can be a crime of passion. This was not. Carefully planned and executed and a lot of lying had to be done to their families and friends to achieve it.

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PostSubject: Re: Unpopular opinions    Unpopular opinions  - Page 4 Icon_minitimeMon Jan 07, 2019 9:50 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Psychopaths can have emotion. They tend to not care about those emotions or how they affect others.

The Hare Psychopathy Checklist uses the following criteria for psychopathy:

Glibness/superficial charm
Grandiose sense of self-worth
Pathological lying
Cunning/manipulative
Lack of remorse or guilt
Shallow affect (genuine emotion is short-lived and egocentric)
Callousness; lack of empathy
Failure to accept responsibility for own actions

Thank you! You can almost check off all of those for E&D considering their ENTIRE last year alive was them lying to their families and friends and fooling everyone into thinking they cared for them. Checking out colleges, Dylan going to prom. The list goes on. They systematically detached themselves from everyone around them while simultaneously putting on masks and hiding their intentions. Only someone with psychopathic tendencies could pull that off so eerily flawless as those two boys did

Then why do Fuselier, etc. only classify Eric as the psychopath? If both Eric and Dylan were fulfilling this list, why has Dylan been exempt from this classification?
(For the record- I think they were both mentally/emotionally disturbed but that neither was a psychopath).
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PostSubject: Re: Unpopular opinions    Unpopular opinions  - Page 4 Icon_minitimeMon Jan 07, 2019 10:00 am

Different professionals would have different opinions. There’s unfortunately no scientific proof. Much of it is based on behavioral observations. And as for Dylan and Eric, I do believe they would be on different spectrums. Eric making claims about tearing someone’s throat is on the extreme. Dylan might have fallen somewhere in the middle to lower end. Read the subtypes I posted. It gives more explanation/rationale
We can all provide evidence to support our argument. None of us truly knew them so it would be hard to make a clinical diagnosis or sound judgement without meeting them.

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PostSubject: Re: Unpopular opinions    Unpopular opinions  - Page 4 Icon_minitimeMon Jan 07, 2019 8:06 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Quote :
I'm not buying it, you can be a killer, even a cold blooded one and not be a psychopath.

For me, the reason why I think neither Eric or Dylan was a psychopath was because of one thing each of them had: they both had emotional attachment of some kind. Eric genuinely loved his parents and barely had anything bad to say about them, and also loved his pet dog dearly and animals in general. For everything Eric was a (self-admitted) hypocrite on, he never wavered in his belief that animals were fundamentally good and that people who hurt them were awful. If Eric was a tried and true psychopath, he would never have thought this way. Instead he would've been an animal abuser.

Dylan is a bit different here. He wavered back and forth between hating his family and loving them, but in his journals he talked a lot about how he wanted to pair up with his true love in the afterlife and very early on noted the betrayal and hurt he felt when he perceived his friends as abandoning him or disliking him for one reason or another. If Dylan was psychopathic then he would not have placed so much emphasis on his isolation from his friends or his lack of a love life, because a psychopath wouldn't give a damn what people thought about them.

Psychopathy has degrees. A lot of diagnosed psychopaths can experience love, this is all documented. But psychopaths are also aware of their disconnection with the world and this causes them great pain and suffering to the point they actually crave affection. Read either of their journals and it becomes abundently clear. Psychopaths refuse to accept responsibility for what they do. Eric literally blaming the guy he stole from for having computer parts in his van is evidence of this. Psychopaths are largley egotistical. Both boys saw thenselves as superior to everyone to some degree, Eric especially who belived he was smarter and more evolved than everyone. But the most damming evidence is a psychopath's ability to efficiently detach themselves from loved ones. They can have feelings for others but ultimately don't care about causing them pain. I'm just gonna say this: for every question people ask about how they were able to mask their nature for so long, how they could go to school, family holiday functions, how Dylan could take Robyn to prom and stand to look at her and other students knowing what he was gonna do in a few days - how they manipulated people into believing everything was (relatively) normal, etc. All these questions that make this case fascinating surrounding their deception, they do have an answer. And it is definitely not "anti social disorder". What they achieved goes beyond that and that is not what anti social disorder is.

And here we run into the problem of what exactly a psychopath is or can/can't do. You've told me that psychopaths can feel love for others; I've heard others suggest that psychopaths can't feel affection towards anyone except themselves. It's all up in the air, so I can't say for certain if you're right or wrong.

Regardless I still think neither was a psychopath.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
A psychopath isn’t going to always murder his dog. Maybe too much Dexter? Lol

IMO, a psychopath would never honestly admit to feeling affection for animals or be morally outraged at their harm. Eric did both.

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PostSubject: Re: Unpopular opinions    Unpopular opinions  - Page 4 Icon_minitimeSun Jan 13, 2019 9:03 pm

I don't have a problem with "Eric's a psychopath," I have a problem with "Eric made Dylan do it."
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