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 Mass Shooting in California

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PostSubject: Re: Mass Shooting in California   Mass Shooting in California - Page 3 Icon_minitimeFri Nov 09, 2018 8:38 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] A tool is not responsible for mass murder its the Person behind it, People say guns are the problem and are too lethal to have in the hands of civilians but History says otherwise, HGVs and Crude shrapnel bombs are just as lethal as firearms if not more devastating, Remember Nice where a Truck plowed through crowds killing 84 injuring 100s, The Knife attacks in china that kill and injure many, What about the 2001 China Shijizhuang bombings where one man disgruntled over his ex wife killed 108 by blowing up 4 apartment buildings with high explosives in shopping bags, How about tokyo in the 1990s, a country where guns have nothing to do with the population, A religious cult killed 13 and injured 1000 with Improvised Sarin Nerve Agent, The Daegu subway fire caused by a man with a bottle of gasoline and a lighter that ended with the deaths of 192, the examples are infinite and could go on forever, If someone wants is going to kill a large amount of people they dont have to use a gun. Tools are not the problem its Mental Health and something wrong in todays society that causes and contributes to it more than any other period of history. You say how removing bins in British train stations was a great prevention of fatal bombings but what about 7/7 where the assailants carried crude high powered bombs in hiking rucksacks onto the trains where they blew themselves up killing 52 injuring 700 plus, The manchester bombing. Dont follow the narratives of agenda charged mainstream media and trending political movements over Logic, Mental Health, the suffering lost and isolated in their own thoughts and internal depraved Hell, Insanity is the Problem and the catalytic force behind most Massacres, Not an inanimate object
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PostSubject: Re: Mass Shooting in California   Mass Shooting in California - Page 3 Icon_minitimeFri Nov 09, 2018 8:43 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] couldn't have said it better myself.

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PostSubject: Re: Mass Shooting in California   Mass Shooting in California - Page 3 Icon_minitimeFri Nov 09, 2018 9:00 pm

We should probably legalise access to bombs and chemical weapons then, as obviously they are just the tools not the people behind it that kill people. After all, that follows your logic.
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PostSubject: Re: Mass Shooting in California   Mass Shooting in California - Page 3 Icon_minitimeFri Nov 09, 2018 9:01 pm

Tommy QTR wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] couldn't have said it better myself.
im sure you could of tommy, i just think about now everyone is fed up with the stupid politically correct trend, culture and mode of warped thinking so prevailent today, Its dangerous, its making things more dangerous for everyone banning tools and enforcing fake illusions of safety in which the Killers and especially the Insane dont give a care about at all. For example Gun free zones, just like this bar shooting a well calculated killer will just move in take out armed security first in a suprise attack and then will shoot down easy unarmed hysteria stricken targets. i dont get involved with politics and am not saying everyone should be armed like the wild west but banning tools that themselves can be used to stop attacks and ignoring Mental illness does not work for you arent actually getting rid of the problem, we are just making excuses and restricting our human freedom and will whilst Killers still Kill.
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PostSubject: Re: Mass Shooting in California   Mass Shooting in California - Page 3 Icon_minitimeFri Nov 09, 2018 9:13 pm

Pixie13 wrote:
We should probably legalise access to bombs and chemical weapons then, as obviously they are just the tools not the people behind it that kill people. After all, that follows your logic.
Well bombs are not a tool except for in Combat and Chemical weapons are WMDs and they are Banned yet people can still easily craft them for use to kill people. Banning Firearms that have a justified tool use because Killers use them is a false narrative. The 9/11 hijackers didnt even need to craft anything or access a weapon of combat, all they did was buy a flight ticket and smuggled cheap plastic boxcutters onto a airline flight... 3000 dead 6000 injured, Rip.
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PostSubject: Re: Mass Shooting in California   Mass Shooting in California - Page 3 Icon_minitimeFri Nov 09, 2018 9:24 pm

I hope this has not been posted earlier in the thread.

Here are the victims of this shooting, according to this article:


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PostSubject: Re: Mass Shooting in California   Mass Shooting in California - Page 3 Icon_minitimeSat Nov 10, 2018 2:48 am

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Dominique Colell hadn’t heard Ian David Long’s name in years when it suddenly popped up on every news channel on Thursday.

Long, a 28-year-old former Marine, was identified by authorities as the mass shooter who killed 12 people at the Borderline Bar & Grill in Thousand Oaks, Calif., Wednesday night. Colell spoke to CBS Los Angeles afterward and revealed that she remembered Long as the student who assaulted her when she was his high school track coach.

“I turned on the news and I was watching it, and when they said his name my jaw just dropped,” Colell told CBS.

Colell said her confrontation with Long happened his senior year of high school. When she was trying to figure out whose phone someone had found, Long started yelling at her that it was his, she claimed. She said he “started grabbing me,” allegedly groping her stomach and behind.

“He attacked me. He attacked his high school track coach,” she told CBS. “Who does that?”

She regrets not filing a police report back then, saying that other coaches and the school encouraged her to simply accept his apology.

Though Long served in the Marines from August 2008 to March 2013, CNN reports, experts caution against blaming the shooting on PTSD.

“It’s not PTSD,” Barbara Olasov Rothbaum, a psychiatry and behavioral science professor at Emory University School of Medicine, told USA Today. “This is whatever else, what other pathology would cause someone to do this.”

Colell also stated this belief because of her personal experience with Long, which happened before he served in the military.

“There are hundreds of thousands of people with PTSD,” she told CBS. “They don’t go around shooting people. This kid was mentally disturbed in high school. There were signs and the administration knew it.”




Just getting worse and worse! Evil or Very Mad
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PostSubject: Re: Mass Shooting in California   Mass Shooting in California - Page 3 Icon_minitimeSat Nov 10, 2018 10:21 am

Sane One wrote:
And He made a Facebook post..  In it, the writer says: "I hope people call me insane... (laughing emojis).. wouldn't that just be a big ball of irony? Yeah.. I'm insane, but the only thing you people do after these shootings is 'hopes and prayers'.. or 'keep you in my thoughts'... every time... and wonder why these keep happening..."

There was some type of an agenda in play.

I think in this case the agenda was "do something other than sit on your asses to stop people like me", at least based on the wording.

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PostSubject: Re: Mass Shooting in California   Mass Shooting in California - Page 3 Icon_minitimeSat Nov 10, 2018 1:06 pm

QuestionMark wrote:
Sane One wrote:
And He made a Facebook post..  In it, the writer says: "I hope people call me insane... (laughing emojis).. wouldn't that just be a big ball of irony? Yeah.. I'm insane, but the only thing you people do after these shootings is 'hopes and prayers'.. or 'keep you in my thoughts'... every time... and wonder why these keep happening..."

There was some type of an agenda in play.

I think in this case the agenda was "do something other than sit on your asses to stop people like me", at least based on the wording.
I'd say so. It seems like he wanted people to act like responsible adults and defend themselves rather than relying on the cops to magically appear on the scene whenever a crime occurs.
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PostSubject: Re: Mass Shooting in California   Mass Shooting in California - Page 3 Icon_minitimeSat Nov 10, 2018 1:41 pm

Vallutaja wrote:
You muricans really need to overlook your gun laws. When even someone diagnosed as autist can easily get a gun and go on a shooting spree, you gotta expect things like this happen over and over.
Why should an autist be stopped from getting a gun?
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PostSubject: Re: Mass Shooting in California   Mass Shooting in California - Page 3 Icon_minitimeSat Nov 10, 2018 1:43 pm

Pixie13 wrote:
We should probably legalise access to bombs and chemical weapons then, as obviously they are just the tools not the people behind it that kill people. After all, that follows your logic.
Guns can be used for hunting, target shooting and self defence.
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PostSubject: Re: Mass Shooting in California   Mass Shooting in California - Page 3 Icon_minitimeSat Nov 10, 2018 1:46 pm

Ziamber II wrote:
Screamingophelia wrote:
hvernon wrote:
Screamingophelia wrote:
One of my friends lost a family member. Just saw it on my FB feed.  

Sad

My condolences.

Thanks.

I lived in SoCal for 8 years about 30 mins away from Thousand Oaks

You'd probably be safer moving to Canada, or UK where they have gun controll.
What about car attacks?
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PostSubject: Re: Mass Shooting in California   Mass Shooting in California - Page 3 Icon_minitimeSat Nov 10, 2018 1:58 pm

What about car attacks? We've put in barriers and preventative measures, thank you for asking.

Far less likely to be murdered in London than 50 of the USA's largest cities. Stop listening to Trump's lies.

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PostSubject: Re: Mass Shooting in California   Mass Shooting in California - Page 3 Icon_minitimeSat Nov 10, 2018 2:08 pm

Pixie13 wrote:
What about car attacks? We've put in barriers and preventative measures, thank you for asking.

Far less likely to be murdered in London than 50 of the USA's largest cities. Stop listening to Trump's lies.

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Not all places have barriers. And what exactly do we do about bombings? Just yesterday we had an attempted bombing.
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PostSubject: Re: Mass Shooting in California   Mass Shooting in California - Page 3 Icon_minitimeSat Nov 10, 2018 2:10 pm

Where was the attempted bombing.
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PostSubject: Re: Mass Shooting in California   Mass Shooting in California - Page 3 Icon_minitimeSat Nov 10, 2018 2:12 pm

Pixie13 wrote:
Where was the attempted bombing.
Melbourne.
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PostSubject: Re: Mass Shooting in California   Mass Shooting in California - Page 3 Icon_minitimeSat Nov 10, 2018 2:43 pm

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

"I told my wife, 'Just be polite to him. If he talks, just acknowledge him, don't go into conversation with him,'" Don MacLeod said Thursday.

This line is awful. While I can't blame them too much because I don't know myself how I would react if I were scared, it is sad that people have become so much focused on themselves and their family only and society buries it's head in the sand. It's too easy to cry for gun control when you ignored the perpetrator-to-be. In fact I even start to think that the call for more gun control is just because unconsciously or consciously people don't dare to take responsibility for what they haven't done.

Just like what Emma Gonzalez said:

Emma Gonzalez wrote:
Since he was in middle school, it was no surprise to anyone who knew him to hear that he was the shooter. Those talking about how we should have not ostracized him? You didn’t know this kid, OK? We did.

You did know him, so you had to do something!
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PostSubject: Re: Mass Shooting in California   Mass Shooting in California - Page 3 Icon_minitimeSat Nov 10, 2018 7:05 pm

Pixie13 wrote:
Stop listening to Trump's lies.

Wha-? Why are we bringing Trump into this?

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PostSubject: Re: Mass Shooting in California   Mass Shooting in California - Page 3 Icon_minitimeSat Nov 10, 2018 7:16 pm

Where was this kind of man when they needed him the most?:

Image.

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PostSubject: Re: Mass Shooting in California   Mass Shooting in California - Page 3 Icon_minitimeSat Nov 10, 2018 7:22 pm

Devil wrote:
Where was this kind of man when they needed him the most?:

Image.
You can thank California's strict gun laws for that.

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PostSubject: Re: Mass Shooting in California   Mass Shooting in California - Page 3 Icon_minitimeSat Nov 10, 2018 7:26 pm

QuestionMark wrote:
Pixie13 wrote:
Stop listening to Trump's lies.

Wha-? Why are we bringing Trump into this?
I wouldn't even bother with this person, they make idiotic statements like saying bombs and chemical weapons should be legal and think mental health isn't an issue.

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PostSubject: Re: Mass Shooting in California   Mass Shooting in California - Page 3 Icon_minitimeSat Nov 10, 2018 7:35 pm

At no point did I say that mental health wasn't an issue (although if you look at studies the correlation between gun ownership and gun deaths is there but not in studies where you look at mental health. I'm not the author of the studies, I have just read them) and of course I don't believe bombs and chemical weapons should be legalised. I was just pointing out what a flimsy argument that "Guns don't kill people" is.

Trump regularly points to the UK's knife crime epidemic as an excuse not to look at him control, where if you look at the statistics knife crime and gun crime are both lower in the UK.

But hey, keep sending thoughts and prayers, tutting about mental health, each time kids are gunned down. That's all Americans ever do.
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PostSubject: Re: Mass Shooting in California   Mass Shooting in California - Page 3 Icon_minitimeSat Nov 10, 2018 7:36 pm

There was a good guy with a gun. He was called Ron Helus and he is dead.
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PostSubject: Re: Mass Shooting in California   Mass Shooting in California - Page 3 Icon_minitimeSat Nov 10, 2018 7:53 pm

Pixie13 wrote:
At no point did I say that mental health wasn't an issue
Yes you did:

Pixie13 wrote:
And oh yes, the "mental illness" is the issue. How about not letting people with mental illnesses that make them prone to violence and self-harm get hold of guns?

By putting Mental illness in quotations you were clearly saying it's not important and not an issue. Don't lie when people call you out.

Quote :
I was just pointing out what a flimsy argument that "Guns don't kill people" is.
A gun doesn't walk into a place and pull it's own trigger, a person has to do that.

Quote :
Trump regularly points to the UK's knife crime epidemic as an excuse not to look at him control, where if you look at the statistics knife crime and gun crime are both lower in the UK.
Gun crime in the UK rose by 20% last year, so Trump's right.

Quote :
But hey, keep sending thoughts and prayers, tutting about mental health, each time kids are gunned down. That's all Americans ever do.
And you keep blaming inanimate objects for the crimes of people and ignore the real issue which is America's dreadful Mental Health services.

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PostSubject: Re: Mass Shooting in California   Mass Shooting in California - Page 3 Icon_minitimeSat Nov 10, 2018 7:55 pm

Pixie13 wrote:
There was a good guy with a gun. He was called Ron Helus and he is dead.

Yes.

However, he was not at the scene when the shooting commenced. He was one of the first responders from law enforcement.

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PostSubject: Re: Mass Shooting in California   Mass Shooting in California - Page 3 Icon_minitimeSat Nov 10, 2018 8:07 pm

Neah wrote:
ShadowedGoddess wrote:

"I told my wife, 'Just be polite to him. If he talks, just acknowledge him, don't go into conversation with him,'" Don MacLeod said Thursday.

This line is awful. While I can't blame them too much because I don't know myself how I would react if I were scared, it is sad that people have become so much focused on themselves and their family only and society buries it's head in the sand. It's too easy to cry for gun control when you ignored the perpetrator-to-be. In fact I even start to think that the call for more gun control is just because unconsciously or consciously people don't dare to take responsibility for what they haven't done.


It would seem this is another case where clear issues and other problems were overlooked, downplayed, etc. I think it all boils down to the fact that many don't want to get their hands dirty, or be nosy, etc.

But it does make it hard to find the people who NEED help if everyone just turns their head in order to say "Well I didn't notice anything" in order to keep a semi clear conscious.
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PostSubject: Re: Mass Shooting in California   Mass Shooting in California - Page 3 Icon_minitimeSat Nov 10, 2018 8:26 pm

Gun crime may have risen but it still represents less than 100 deaths in 2018. Trump is talking out his arse.
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PostSubject: Re: Mass Shooting in California   Mass Shooting in California - Page 3 Icon_minitimeSat Nov 10, 2018 8:49 pm

Pixie13 wrote:
Gun crime may have risen but it still represents less than 100 deaths in 2018. Trump is talking out his arse.
Sure, whatever you say. Rolling Eyes

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PostSubject: Re: Mass Shooting in California   Mass Shooting in California - Page 3 Icon_minitimeSat Nov 10, 2018 9:05 pm

You can check last year's murder statistics here: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

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PostSubject: Re: Mass Shooting in California   Mass Shooting in California - Page 3 Icon_minitimeSat Nov 10, 2018 9:09 pm

Pixie13 wrote:
You can check last year's murder statistics here: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Obviously the UK murder rate is going lower than the US, it's a smaller country and therefore will have less murders.

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PostSubject: Re: Mass Shooting in California   Mass Shooting in California - Page 3 Icon_minitimeSat Nov 10, 2018 9:14 pm

Our murder rate (per 100,000) is significantly lower too. You know in terms of population that you're only 5 times bigger?
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PostSubject: Re: Mass Shooting in California   Mass Shooting in California - Page 3 Icon_minitimeSat Nov 10, 2018 9:21 pm

We just live in a dumb world now. One woman speaks out about how the shooter assaulted her 10 years ago. I can’t begin to tell you how pathetic that makes her look. It reminds me of the folks who come out of the woodwork when they know you’ve just won the lottery. People who claim shootings specifically Thousand Oaks can be prevented if average joes were trained and able to carry their guns around. You know how stupid that thought process is?

I don’t think I want somebody even trained exchanging gunfire in a public crowded place with somebody intent on causing damage. Cross fire victims would be insane. Not to mention what if somebody else thinks the guy trying to prevent the attack is the actual perpetrator. This isn’t the wild Wild West. God, we are such a dumb country now.

How is the sex offender registry working out? Last I checked, sex crimes are overloading every courthouse in America. It doesn’t prevent crime or protect anybody. Guns to average joes won’t prevent or solve anything. If people are intent on causing harm they will. That’s the bottom line.
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PostSubject: Re: Mass Shooting in California   Mass Shooting in California - Page 3 Icon_minitimeSat Nov 10, 2018 9:24 pm

Pixie13 wrote:
Our murder rate (per 100,000) is significantly lower too. You know in terms of population that you're only 5 times bigger?
Well yeah a country that has a smaller population is going to have less murder rates. Don't know what point you're trying to prove here.

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PostSubject: Re: Mass Shooting in California   Mass Shooting in California - Page 3 Icon_minitimeSat Nov 10, 2018 9:46 pm



More info on Ian Long's past.

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PostSubject: Re: Mass Shooting in California   Mass Shooting in California - Page 3 Icon_minitimeSat Nov 10, 2018 10:26 pm

I think you are getting confused between totals and rates. A country that has a bigger population is likely to have a bigger *total* number of murders, but a murder rate (e.g. 1 person murdered for every 100,000 people) is a comparative measure.

So Country A has 100 people, Country B has 500 people. Country A has 1 murder per year, Country B has 5 murders a year then their murder rate is the same (1/100 or 1%). Country A has 1 murder a year, Country B has 10 murders a year (1% vs 2%) country B has a higher murder rate
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PostSubject: Re: Mass Shooting in California   Mass Shooting in California - Page 3 Icon_minitimeSat Nov 10, 2018 10:55 pm

Pixie13 wrote:
I think you are getting confused between totals and rates.  A country that has a bigger population is likely to have a bigger *total* number of murders, but a murder rate (e.g. 1 person murdered for every 100,000 people) is a comparative measure.

So Country A has 100 people, Country B has 500 people. Country A has 1 murder per year, Country B has 5 murders a year then their murder rate is the same (1/100 or 1%). Country A has 1 murder a year, Country B has 10 murders a year (1% vs 2%) country B has a higher murder rate
The UK is a less violent country than America so it will have less murder rates, you also have to take in other factors such as mental health, crime, poverty, drugs etc and not just "evil guns".

This will be my last exchange with you, I'm sick of us going back and forth as you clearly won't change your mind and we're also derailing the thread, so I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

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PostSubject: Re: Mass Shooting in California   Mass Shooting in California - Page 3 Icon_minitimeSat Nov 10, 2018 11:05 pm

Fine. Happy to draw a line under it too. My original argument was that Britain was a safer country than the USA, so happy that is settled even if we disagree that gun control is part of the reason it is safer.
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PostSubject: Re: Mass Shooting in California   Mass Shooting in California - Page 3 Icon_minitimeSat Nov 10, 2018 11:15 pm

Have you seen that it looks like he posted on Instagram mid-shooting?

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I think that must be the weirdest detail I've read so far.
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PostSubject: Re: Mass Shooting in California   Mass Shooting in California - Page 3 Icon_minitimeSat Nov 10, 2018 11:18 pm

Pixie13 wrote:
Have you seen that it looks like he posted on Instagram mid-shooting?

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I think that must be the weirdest detail I've read so far.


True, that is some crazy shit.
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PostSubject: Re: Mass Shooting in California   Mass Shooting in California - Page 3 Icon_minitimeSat Nov 10, 2018 11:18 pm

I've heard someone say that he was recording his own massacre, but I dunno if that was confirmed.

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PostSubject: Re: Mass Shooting in California   Mass Shooting in California - Page 3 Icon_minitimeSat Nov 10, 2018 11:20 pm

School Massacre Archives wrote:
I've heard someone say that he was recording his own massacre, but I dunno if that was confirmed.

Surly if true it would have been talked about by now right? scratch
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PostSubject: Re: Mass Shooting in California   Mass Shooting in California - Page 3 Icon_minitimeSun Nov 11, 2018 3:28 am

Videos





What the bar interior looks like:

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The Weapon He Used (**THIS IS NOT THE EXACT ONE BUT IS THE SAME MODEL/CALIBER/HAS ATTACHMENTS**):

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Shooter's Social Media:

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PostSubject: Re: Mass Shooting in California   Mass Shooting in California - Page 3 Icon_minitimeSun Nov 11, 2018 4:40 am

(redac)


Last edited by NSAhoneypot on Sun Nov 11, 2018 10:41 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Mass Shooting in California   Mass Shooting in California - Page 3 Icon_minitimeSun Nov 11, 2018 8:16 am

Pixie13 wrote:
Fine. Happy to draw a line under it too. My original argument was that Britain was a safer country than the USA, so happy that is settled even if we disagree that gun control is part of the reason it is safer.  

Guns are basically a religion in the US. I didn't grow up around the faith, but I've met plenty of lifelong believers. When you're indoctrinated into the gun cult, facts become completely irrelevant. There are no facts beyond the objectively absurd volumes of pro-gun apologetics, and you'll never, never convince a believer that they're wrong about anything.

They already know that other countries are much safer and don't have the same problems. They already know that gun control, by objective measures, would save lives here. They just don't care. Seriously, think of it as a violation of their firmest religious belief, because that's exactly how they see it.

Several people in this thread derisively dismissed California's gun laws, but they already know what the real problem is: in the US, all you have to do is drive to another state. There's a great example of this problem beyond mass shootings. Chicago is always cited by the gun cultists as a paragon of gun control failure, but most of the guns seized in Chicago come from border states.

Without federal action, the laws of any city or any state are irrelevant and nothing in the US is going to change.
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PostSubject: Re: Mass Shooting in California   Mass Shooting in California - Page 3 Icon_minitimeSun Nov 11, 2018 8:41 am

[quote="Mh_12rm_66"]Videos



I think You can see Long in it
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PostSubject: Re: Mass Shooting in California   Mass Shooting in California - Page 3 Icon_minitimeSun Nov 11, 2018 9:40 am

NSAhoneypot wrote:
It's amazing how the media managed to pin this on PTSD. I wouldn't be surprised if it actually had nearly nothing to do with his final decision. 

Well according to the source right above your post, he literally did it out of boredom.

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PostSubject: Re: Mass Shooting in California   Mass Shooting in California - Page 3 Icon_minitimeSun Nov 11, 2018 2:21 pm

curious2017 wrote:
Pixie13 wrote:
Fine. Happy to draw a line under it too. My original argument was that Britain was a safer country than the USA, so happy that is settled even if we disagree that gun control is part of the reason it is safer.  

Guns are basically a religion in the US. I didn't grow up around the faith, but I've met plenty of lifelong believers. When you're indoctrinated into the gun cult, facts become completely irrelevant. There are no facts beyond the objectively absurd volumes of pro-gun apologetics, and you'll never, never convince a believer that they're wrong about anything.

They already know that other countries are much safer and don't have the same problems. They already know that gun control, by objective measures, would save lives here. They just don't care. Seriously, think of it as a violation of their firmest religious belief, because that's exactly how they see it.  

Several people in this thread derisively dismissed California's gun laws, but they already know what the real problem is: in the US, all you have to do is drive to another state. There's a great example of this problem beyond mass shootings. Chicago is always cited by the gun cultists as a paragon of gun control failure, but most of the guns seized in Chicago come from border states.

Without federal action, the laws of any city or any state are irrelevant and nothing in the US is going to change.

I find your post quite patronizing. American people are not aware but you are. But you don't even seem to try to understand pro-gun people.
"There are no facts beyond the objectively absurd volumes of pro-gun apologetics, and you'll never, never convince a believer that they're wrong about anything."
Everything doesn't have to be based on facts. Facts can vary depending on several factors, and there are many factors that could reduce crime in the USA. Values are also important and you can build upon it and then try to improve facts. This is freedom, a right to protect yourself. This is important for them. We've already had this kind of conversation in other threads, but we've mentioned Switzerland where people have guns too. Here is a post I wrote in another thread about it:

Neah wrote:
Pixie13 wrote:
It doesn't take a genius to work out that the difference between the USA and countries that don't have disturbed teenagers shooting up schools is the American gun culture.

Indeed, it is obvious that only in America there is an American gun culture. But America is not the only country where many people have guns, Switzerland also have a gun culture and it works pretty well since the last mass shooting occurred in 2001.

"The country has about 2 million privately owned guns in a nation of 8.3 million people." "In 2007, the Small Arms Survey found that Switzerland had the third-highest ratio of civilian firearms per 100 residents (46), outdone by only the US (89) and Yemen (55)." (Source: The Independent)

It is not gun culture that is to blame, it is gun culture in the American context that doesn't work, and this is probably so because of many issues. As you said, the teenage perpetrators were "disturbed", so mental health may be one of those issues.

However, maybe we will agree on that and I have said it many times on this forum and nothing makes me change my point of view, I do think it is obvious that if you have guns there will always be a risk of having a mass shooting. Sure mass murders can happen in every countries, but except for bombings (although Columbine, the bucket bomb in the London tube in 2017 and the Oklahoma City Bombing show us that bombs can be either a complete failure,especially for "disturbed teenagers" or a huge disaster, especially in case of terrorism) and to some extent arson, other forms of attacks usually leads to a much smaller amount of victims. A mass stabber has more chance to be stopped before he kills many people than a mass shooter. And I think it is a choice that a nation have to do between freedom and ability for each individual to defend himself without depending on others, and security and confidence in other people and the police.

Don't see me as a stupid pro-gun person, although I am more on the side of pro-gun people I am not in favor of no gun control at all. And I'm not even American. I don't want to change your opinion and I don't think I could anyway: what you think is admissible. It's just that we don't value the same things. We've already talked several time about gun control on this forum but maybe we should make another thread about it, so that new members can express their opinion and we don't write off-topic posts on other threads.
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PostSubject: Re: Mass Shooting in California   Mass Shooting in California - Page 3 Icon_minitimeSun Nov 11, 2018 4:00 pm

Neah wrote:
I find your post quite patronizing. American people are not aware but you are. But you don't even seem to try to understand pro-gun people.
"There are no facts beyond the objectively absurd volumes of pro-gun apologetics, and you'll never, never convince a believer that they're wrong about anything."
Everything doesn't have to be based on facts. Facts can vary depending on several factors, and there are many factors that could reduce crime in the USA. Values are also important and you can build upon it and then try to improve facts. This is freedom, a right to protect yourself. This is important for them.

Facts are actually facts. There are no "alternative facts" in this discussion.

Don't misunderstand my statements. Plenty of gun cultists, conservative and liberal, really do mean well. Good intentions don't matter here. Guns don't make people free anymore. They kill innocent people.

Quote :
Indeed, it is obvious that only in America there is an American gun culture. But America is not the only country where many people have guns, Switzerland also have a gun culture and it works pretty well since the last mass shooting occurred in 2001.

If you're using Switzerland as an example, you don't appreciate how easy it is to buy guns or ammo in the US. It is disturbingly simpler, and that is a huge part of our problem.

Quote :
Don't see me as a stupid pro-gun person, although I am more on the side of pro-gun people I am not in favor of no gun control at all. And I'm not even American. I don't want to change your opinion and I don't think I could anyway: what you think is admissible. It's just that we don't value the same things. We've already talked several time about gun control on this forum but maybe we should make another thread about it, so that new members can express their opinion and we don't write off-topic posts on other threads.

Where are you from? Can you walk into a grocery store and walk out with an assault rifle? Because you can do that here.
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PostSubject: Re: Mass Shooting in California   Mass Shooting in California - Page 3 Icon_minitimeSun Nov 11, 2018 4:27 pm

I don't get how you guys can have the same argument every time.
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PostSubject: Re: Mass Shooting in California   Mass Shooting in California - Page 3 Icon_minitimeSun Nov 11, 2018 4:35 pm

curious2017 wrote:
Neah wrote:
I find your post quite patronizing. American people are not aware but you are. But you don't even seem to try to understand pro-gun people.
"There are no facts beyond the objectively absurd volumes of pro-gun apologetics, and you'll never, never convince a believer that they're wrong about anything."
Everything doesn't have to be based on facts. Facts can vary depending on several factors, and there are many factors that could reduce crime in the USA. Values are also important and you can build upon it and then try to improve facts. This is freedom, a right to protect yourself. This is important for them.

Facts are actually facts. There are no "alternative facts" in this discussion.

Don't misunderstand my statements. Plenty of gun cultists, conservative and liberal, really do mean well. Good intentions don't matter here. Guns don't make people free anymore. They kill innocent people.

Quote :
Indeed, it is obvious that only in America there is an American gun culture. But America is not the only country where many people have guns, Switzerland also have a gun culture and it works pretty well since the last mass shooting occurred in 2001.

If you're using Switzerland as an example, you don't appreciate how easy it is to buy guns or ammo in the US. It is disturbingly simpler, and that is a huge part of our problem.

Quote :
Don't see me as a stupid pro-gun person, although I am more on the side of pro-gun people I am not in favor of no gun control at all. And I'm not even American. I don't want to change your opinion and I don't think I could anyway: what you think is admissible. It's just that we don't value the same things. We've already talked several time about gun control on this forum but maybe we should make another thread about it, so that new members can express their opinion and we don't write off-topic posts on other threads.

Where are you from? Can you walk into a grocery store and walk out with an assault rifle? Because you can do that here.
If you don't want to look at Switzerland, look at Austria. Or the Czech Republic.
Also, you can't walk out of a grocery store with an assault rifle. You can however walk out with a semi automatic modern sporting rifle. Assault rifles are select fire.
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