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 For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying....

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For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 3 Empty
PostSubject: Re: For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying....   For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 3 Icon_minitimeThu Dec 13, 2018 7:41 pm

@Screamingophelia wrote:
ShadowedGoddess wrote:
@Screamingophelia wrote:
@Lizpuff wrote:


Also for mental help- it cannot be forced.  You force someone that doesn't want help to see a therapist or take meds and they push back even more.  I think Eric's therapist was terrible but putting that aside, Eric obviously didn't want the help.  He lied his way thru and his therapist was none the wiser.  

Same with Dylan. He needed help and he refused. Sue even said if they forced him to go Dylan would have been  capable of sitting in silence the whole time

@Screamingophelia  Very true. If someone doesn't want help then there is nothing you can really do. Its not like you can force them to get help. You can beg and cry, but if they still see nothing wrong with themselves, their actions,  or truly don't want to change then that's just it. No


Exactly. In private Dylan was struggling but was so gifted growing up and felt like he was smart and self reliant and that turned into a superiority complex then his feelings that were similar to Eric’s.... something about that friendship was the ultimate toxic friendship

His whole “when did this entity take over Dylan?” Makes me sad. He was 15 I think when he write that.

Again very true. I think Dylan was fully aware that he was slipping, that things so weren't OK. But he just couldn't bring himself to admit that he needed help. No
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For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 3 Empty
PostSubject: Re: For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying....   For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 3 Icon_minitimeThu Dec 13, 2018 9:37 pm

ShadowedGoddess wrote:
I think Dylan was fully aware that he was slipping, that things so weren't OK. But he just couldn't bring himself to admit that he needed help. No


Or maybe he felt that he was beyond help, or that it wouldn't work out, or that he was better off without it.

I think Dylan was always putting the problems he had on the shoulders of others.

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For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 3 Empty
PostSubject: Re: For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying....   For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 3 Icon_minitimeThu Dec 13, 2018 9:50 pm

I don't think they knew though, he seemed to be good at hiding it. Except with Zach. I would love to hear from Zach one day but I think we will hear from Eric's parents before that happens...

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For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 3 Empty
PostSubject: Re: For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying....   For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 3 Icon_minitimeThu Dec 13, 2018 10:02 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
 I think Eric's therapist was terrible but putting that aside, Eric obviously didn't want the help.  He lied his way thru and his therapist was none the wiser.  

I'm not 100% convinced of this. I have no doubt he never mentioned NBK or what he was planning. But he did indicate on his Diversion Intake Assessment a ton of the issues he was having with anger, insecurity, depression, feelings of suicide, etc. And in his journal he wrote, "my doctor wants to put me on medication to stop thinking about so many things and to stop getting angry"
I think Eric was talking to Albert about some stuff and instead of providing Eric with the tools to work on his problems, Albert's solution was to try to medicate him to blunt his feelings. I'm not saying that anti-depressants don't work, only that they have to be used in conjunction with behavioral therapy, as well, and that takes effort on the part of both the patient and the doctor. If Albert's reviews are a true reflection of his skills as a therapist, drugging his patients was probably the "easy" way of treating them, rather than actually encouraging them to work on themselves and giving them the means to do it.
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For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 3 Empty
PostSubject: Re: For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying....   For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 3 Icon_minitimeFri Dec 14, 2018 2:31 am

I've read Dr Albert's reviews and they are pretty grim (although many of them seem involved in custody cases, which are fraught with emotion), but the fact remains that Eric Harris had access to mental healthcare, with the best will in the world you can't ensure everyone who sees a mental health professional will be seeing the best one available. Kevin Harris seemed very thorough, there was more than one doctor on the list, I would be surprised if he sent his son to a doctor with a terrible reputation.
I do think though, if Eric had seen a doctor who really listened to him, who showed enough interest in him and worked to help resolve his feelings of isolation and self-loathing (which I truly believe was brought on by bullying), then perhaps Columbine would not have happened.
I still see it as a triangle: mental health, access to guns and social inclusion/acceptance. You need to work on all three at once to reduce mass shootings.
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PostSubject: Re: For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying....   For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 3 Icon_minitimeFri Dec 14, 2018 9:16 am

I still think if people were more open minded, accepting and friendly even if people had mental issues, they wouldn't necessarily resort to violence against the people that were friendly to them. In this instant access to guns seems irrelevant to me.
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PostSubject: Re: For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying....   For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 3 Icon_minitimeFri Dec 14, 2018 11:32 am

@Screamingophelia wrote:
I don't think they knew though, he seemed to be good at hiding it. Except with Zach. I would love to hear from Zach one day but I think we will hear from Eric's parents before that happens...

Very true.
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PostSubject: Re: For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying....   For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 3 Icon_minitimeMon Dec 17, 2018 10:53 pm

Ok, as a rule I don't go looking for Columbine victims or former students on social media because I believe that they deserve their privacy and to be able to move forward with their lives. They don't need me or anyone else interested in this case trying to track them down.

But...for some inexplicable reason tonight I just felt compelled to look for someone who was mentioned in the 11k as having been particularly abusive towards Eric. I found him and was struck by the fact that his Facebook cover photo is of Bill and Ted with the caption "Be excellent to each other."

This is either a sad irony or his experience with the attack taught him something important about how to treat other people. I am choosing to believe the latter, for no other reason than because I was looking for something positive that could have been learned from this tragedy and something drew me to break a long held rule not to go snooping on those affected by Columbine. I'm not a mystic but I don't feel like it was an accident I was "led" to this particular person's page.

(I know you guys will understand why I am not publicly naming this person).
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For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 3 Empty
PostSubject: Re: For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying....   For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 3 Icon_minitimeTue Dec 18, 2018 8:23 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Ok, as a rule I don't go looking for Columbine victims or former students on social media because I believe that they deserve their privacy and to be able to move forward with their lives. They don't need me or anyone else interested in this case trying to track them down.

But...for some inexplicable reason tonight I just felt compelled to look for someone who was mentioned in the 11k as having been particularly abusive towards Eric. I found him and was struck by the fact that his Facebook cover photo is of Bill and Ted with the caption "Be excellent to each other."

This is either a sad irony or his experience with the attack taught him something important about how to treat other people. I am choosing to believe the latter, for no other reason than because I was looking for something positive that could have been learned from this tragedy and something drew me to break a long held rule not to go snooping on those affected by Columbine. I'm not a mystic but I don't feel like it was an accident I was "led" to this particular person's page.

(I know you guys will understand why I am not publicly naming this person).

Most of the people involved are 35 and older now so I would like to think that age has given them wisdom. I hope that they actually believe what is in that photo instead of just using it for the Bill and Ted nostalgia

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For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 3 Empty
PostSubject: Re: For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying....   For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 3 Icon_minitimeTue Dec 18, 2018 8:31 am

I think for every Evan Todd who seemingly has learned nothing there are probably a lot of people who feel remorseful and have changed.

In We Are Columbine one of the girls who was a jock said "I really looked at how I treated people after and I still do" to paraphrase.

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PostSubject: Re: For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying....   For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 3 Icon_minitimeTue Dec 18, 2018 9:30 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
 I think Eric's therapist was terrible but putting that aside, Eric obviously didn't want the help.  He lied his way thru and his therapist was none the wiser.  

I'm not 100% convinced of this. I have no doubt he never mentioned NBK or what he was planning. But he did indicate on his Diversion Intake Assessment a ton of the issues he was having with anger, insecurity, depression, feelings of suicide, etc. And in his journal he wrote, "my doctor wants to put me on medication to stop thinking about so many things and to stop getting angry"
I think Eric was talking to Albert about some stuff and instead of providing Eric with the tools to work on his problems, Albert's solution was to try to medicate him to blunt his feelings. I'm not saying that anti-depressants don't work, only that they have to be used in conjunction with behavioral therapy, as well, and that takes effort on the part of both the patient and the doctor. If Albert's reviews are a true reflection of his skills as a therapist, drugging his patients was probably the "easy" way of treating them, rather than actually encouraging them to work on themselves and giving them the means to do it.

Not that I know or have worked with Dr. Albert but I have my MCSW and work with at risk youth and just to throw out another perspective, in the 90s a lot of the side effects about psych meds, especially for adolescents, weren't nearly as widely known. Columbine did bring some awareness to the issue. But yeah just throwing that out there...
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For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 3 Empty
PostSubject: Re: For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying....   For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 3 Icon_minitimeTue Dec 18, 2018 9:34 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
I think for every Evan Todd who seemingly has learned nothing there are probably a lot of people who feel remorseful and have changed.

In We Are Columbine one of the girls who was a jock said "I really looked at how I treated people after and I still do" to paraphrase.

This!! My sister said she used to be a bitch sometimes, not because she was trying to be awful to people but because she was an immature, self centered teenager. Shes now a 36 year old mom and has definitely changed a lot since the shooting.
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For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 3 Empty
PostSubject: Re: For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying....   For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 3 Icon_minitimeTue Dec 18, 2018 9:38 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
I think for every Evan Todd who seemingly has learned nothing there are probably a lot of people who feel remorseful and have changed.

In We Are Columbine one of the girls who was a jock said "I really looked at how I treated people after and I still do" to paraphrase.

This!! My sister said she used to be a bitch sometimes, not because she was trying to be awful to people but because she was an immature, self centered teenager. Shes now a 36 year old mom and has definitely changed a lot since the shooting.

Yes! I have a friend who was a senior at the time (she is a survivor as well) and she said she was sure she was a jerk and she hung out with people who were bullies but she was a kid and has really learned from everything.

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For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 3 Empty
PostSubject: Re: For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying....   For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 3 Icon_minitimeTue Dec 18, 2018 11:48 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
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I think for every Evan Todd who seemingly has learned nothing there are probably a lot of people who feel remorseful and have changed.

In We Are Columbine one of the girls who was a jock said "I really looked at how I treated people after and I still do" to paraphrase.

This!! My sister said she used to be a bitch sometimes, not because she was trying to be awful to people but because she was an immature, self centered teenager. Shes now a 36 year old mom and has definitely changed a lot since the shooting.

Yes! I have a friend who was a senior at the time (she is a survivor as well) and she said she was sure she was a jerk and she hung out with people who were bullies but she was a kid and has really learned from everything.

Are you getting at that teen bullies are bullies because they are just stupid? or that they are so self absorbed in being accepted that they do anything to anyone to fit in? Honestly that sounds very stupid to me.

I love how bullies grow old and then they feel remorseful, like that make everything better, it doesn't. I've known people that their lives were destroyed by bullies, saying sorry to someone that you've programmed them to think they are worthless aren't ever going to find closure in that, especially after years after the bullying that affected their life negatively.

Why aren't people genuinely nice to others in young ages? Bad parenting?
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PostSubject: Re: For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying....   For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 3 Icon_minitimeTue Dec 18, 2018 12:11 pm

I was bullied pretty horrendously. From the stories I’ve heard about Eric and Dylan I was definitely bullied a lot worse than them and I didn’t have friends. I don’t think I’ve thought about it enough yet. When it comes to my own bullying. I was just thinking of the few people that I’ve heard from and spoken to. So I haven’t really thought about why kids hands up like that. Because there are a lot of nice kids out there. And there are in general people no matter what age that are aaa holes

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PostSubject: Re: For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying....   For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 3 Icon_minitimeTue Dec 18, 2018 1:06 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
I was bullied pretty horrendously. From the stories I’ve heard about Eric and Dylan I was definitely bullied a lot worse than them and I didn’t have friends. I don’t think I’ve thought about it enough yet. When it comes to my own bullying. I was just thinking of the few people that I’ve heard from and spoken to. So I haven’t really thought about why kids hands up like that. Because there are a lot of nice kids out there. And there are in general people no matter what age that are aaa holes

I agree, at any age there are going to be assholes out there trying to bring you down, but it sucks when people get bullied at a young age before their mind actually has a chance to see whats out there beyond the school clicks
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PostSubject: Re: For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying....   For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 3 Icon_minitimeWed Dec 19, 2018 3:01 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
I think for every Evan Todd who seemingly has learned nothing there are probably a lot of people who feel remorseful and have changed.

In We Are Columbine one of the girls who was a jock said "I really looked at how I treated people after and I still do" to paraphrase.
I wonder if Evan Todd was bullied himself? because that would explain why he bullied others. When Evan Todd also said when they pointed a gun at him and he told them "i've had no problem with you guys", he was covering his own a**.
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PostSubject: Re: For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying....   For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 3 Icon_minitimeWed Dec 19, 2018 3:12 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
I think for every Evan Todd who seemingly has learned nothing there are probably a lot of people who feel remorseful and have changed.

In We Are Columbine one of the girls who was a jock said "I really looked at how I treated people after and I still do" to paraphrase.

This!! My sister said she used to be a bitch sometimes, not because she was trying to be awful to people but because she was an immature, self centered teenager. Shes now a 36 year old mom and has definitely changed a lot since the shooting.
Well, I mean she can't go back in time and change it now.
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PostSubject: Re: For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying....   For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 3 Icon_minitimeWed Dec 19, 2018 6:59 am

From what I've heard after shootings there was no bullying at Columbine for days but went back again to old ways.
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For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 3 Empty
PostSubject: Re: For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying....   For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 3 Icon_minitimeWed Dec 19, 2018 10:39 am

That is very true and has been talked about several times. The simple fact that 15 people dying wasn't enough to completely change that fucking school and the kids in it speaks volumes. Evil or Very Mad
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PostSubject: Re: For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying....   For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 3 Icon_minitimeWed Dec 19, 2018 11:41 am

I'm going to defend Columbine for a little here (shocking I know!)  Yes theres still some bullying, but what would you expect in a single building with almost 2,000 teenagers?

Don't get me wrong, there's no doubt prior to the shooting there was some really egregious inexcusable behavior, mostly directly from Rocky and his cronies.

But for all the other kids who were just normal kids, nice to some people, not as nice to others, getting along with some cliques but not others, being part of a certain group, etc. this doesnt mean they were bad people who deserved what happened. That's my biggest pet peeve with the whole discussion of bullying, like somehow what happened at Columbine is just rewards. That and not all adults who have grown and matured should be held to how they acted as teens, it's already sad how many people dont seem to mature as adults from their teenage years,  growth and maturity should be encouraged.

Eric and Dylan were bullied but also did some bullying of their own. That's the same as most kids at Columbine and everywhere else. Almost no one is 100% either way.. I think with bullying you're talking about regular teenager learn to get along with and around your peers and the world all the way to the straight up abuse and harassment that Rocky and his ilk committed. That kind of stuff didn't happen when I was at Columbine, theres definitely been a conscious effort to prevent that kind of behavior since 1999. Student Senate does a Day Without Hate every year in April and theres still efforts to have a more respectful environment. Theres a zero tolerance policy for bullying and harassment that I saw used, one star basketball player got benched during playoffs because of some nasty online comments he made ky senior year. Pre shooting I dont think that would have happened.

The normal teenage stuff does still happen, 2,000 hormonal teenagers aren't always going to get along or like one another. I went to two high schools, one 100% Native/Pacific Islander, 100% free and reduced lunch etc  the other Columbine almost 100% white, middle to upper middle class, etc. Both had bullying of some form. Its one thing that transcends other differences.

But I think Columbine did learn something and the school and community are still trying to apply those lessons, it's just people aren't perfect. Theres always better that can be done but its not something they're completely blind to.
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For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 3 Empty
PostSubject: Re: For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying....   For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 3 Icon_minitimeWed Dec 19, 2018 11:49 am

@milennialrebelette wrote:
I'm going to defend Columbine for a little here (shocking I know!)  Yes theres still some bullying, but what would you expect in a single building with almost 2,000 teenagers?

This is very true. There will ALWAYS be some form of bullying going on. AND I am also one that does believe E&D did bully others just as they were bullied. It's the trickle down effect.


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I've been bullied for almost all of my life and I've never picked on others because of it. I think the fact that people here are defending bullying and trying to justify it by saying it's "normal" is absolutely disgusting.

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No what I'm trying to say is my sister and my brother and all their friends didn't deserve to get shot at and killed because of bullying. That as adults with families of their own now they can grow and change.

I work with at risk youth and for my masters had to do a lot of research on youth socialization. I'll find the exact study but it's very common for teens to believe that while they're picked on they don't pick on others, however in the same social circle theres people who believe they're picked on/bullied by the person/persons who think theyre bullied not bullies. These studies also show how as part of the developmental stage teens are at, how bullying comes about, as teens start to develop their own independent sense of self and navigate peer groups outside their families, all mixed up with surging hormones.

When I say it's normal I'm in no way saying it's acceptable, okay or good. I apologize if I wasn't clear with my meaning, I'm using more sociology terms.

I think Columbine did bring a lot of attention to teen social dynamics in a good way, unfortunately we still have a lot of work to do, both as adults, teens and with the two groups working together.
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For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 3 Empty
PostSubject: Re: For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying....   For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 3 Icon_minitimeWed Dec 19, 2018 1:05 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
No what I'm trying to say is my sister and my brother and all their friends didn't deserve to get shot at and killed because of bullying. That as adults with families of their own now they can grow and change.

I work with at risk youth and for my masters had to do a lot of research on youth socialization. I'll find the exact study but it's very common for teens to believe that while they're picked on they don't pick on others, however in the same social circle theres people who believe they're picked on/bullied by the person/persons who think theyre bullied not bullies. These studies also show how as part of the developmental stage teens are at, how bullying comes about, as teens start to develop their own independent sense of self and navigate peer groups outside their families, all mixed up with surging hormones.

When I say it's normal I'm in no way saying it's acceptable, okay or good. I apologize if I wasn't clear with my meaning, I'm using more sociology terms.

I think Columbine did bring a lot of attention to teen social dynamics in a good way, unfortunately we still have a lot of work to do, both as adults, teens and with the two groups working together.

Hi! I know this will be speculation and we can’t diagnose anything post Mortem But if you encountered Eric and Dylan right now in your profession, would they be considered at risk? Based on all the things that happened before. The arrest, the writings etc

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For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 3 Empty
PostSubject: Re: For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying....   For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 3 Icon_minitimeWed Dec 19, 2018 1:53 pm

Imo bullying has something to do with parenting.
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For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 3 Empty
PostSubject: Re: For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying....   For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 3 Icon_minitimeWed Dec 19, 2018 2:58 pm

ShadowedGoddess wrote:
That is very true and has been talked about several times. The simple fact that 15 people dying wasn't enough to completely change that fucking school and the kids in it speaks volumes. Evil or Very Mad

Bad habits die hard I suppose.

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For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 3 Empty
PostSubject: Re: For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying....   For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 3 Icon_minitimeWed Dec 19, 2018 6:39 pm

Millenial, I don't want to accuse you of defending bullying, but it sounds like you are. Do you think its fair 2 kids got picked on just for wearing trench coats? I don't think so.

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For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 3 Empty
PostSubject: Re: For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying....   For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 3 Icon_minitimeWed Dec 19, 2018 10:17 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Millenial, I don't want to accuse you of defending bullying, but it sounds like you are. Do you think its fair  2 kids got picked on just for wearing trench coats? I don't think so.

I don't think she was defending bullying. I think what she was trying to convey regarding that particular study was that because of the way the minds of teens work/ are developing, Teen [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] might feel that he is the victim of bullies but that he does not bully others. But, if you ask Teen [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], who is in the same peer group, he might say that, in fact, Teen [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] is the bully.
In other words, these teens might not perceive their own actions as being equivalent to bullying even if, in someone else's perception it actually is bullying.

I can see this as being accurate, to an extent. In the same way that I think that sometimes the severity of bullying relies on the perception of the victim. For example, Person [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] might think that they are not being bullied badly because they are not being beaten up, they are "just" being verbally taunted. But Person [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] might find verbal taunting every bit as painful as a physical beating.
There is the truth and then there is each individuals' perception of the truth. These things don't always/often match exactly and maybe that study is suggesting that during the psychosocial development of teenagers, the reality vs. perception of reality is even more skewed than it is in adults.
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