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 For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying....

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milennialrebelette



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For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 4 Empty
PostSubject: Re: For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying....   For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 4 Icon_minitimeThu Dec 20, 2018 10:14 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Millenial, I don't want to accuse you of defending bullying, but it sounds like you are. Do you think its fair  2 kids got picked on just for wearing trench coats? I don't think so.

I don't think she was defending bullying. I think what she was trying to convey regarding that particular study was that because of the way the minds of teens work/ are developing, Teen [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] might feel that he is the victim of bullies but that he does not bully others. But, if you ask Teen [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], who is in the same peer group, he might say that, in fact, Teen [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] is the bully.
In other words, these teens might not perceive their own actions as being equivalent to bullying even if, in someone else's perception it actually is bullying.

I can see this as being accurate, to an extent. In the same way that I think that sometimes the severity of bullying relies on the perception of the victim. For example, Person [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] might think that they are not being bullied badly because they are not being beaten up, they are "just" being verbally taunted. But Person [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] might find verbal taunting every bit as painful as a physical beating.
There is the truth and then there is each individuals' perception of the truth. These things don't always/often match exactly and maybe that study is suggesting that during the psychosocial development of teenagers, the reality vs. perception of reality is even more skewed than it is in adults.

Thank you that's exactly what quite a few studies have shown in regards to bullying.

The other point is that bullying comes about from the developmental stage teens are at. As they try to form independent identities but are also at a stage where peer relationships are important as they try to navigate the world around them independent of their families, all combined with hormones and brains that aren't finished developing, bullying comes about.

Also I'm talking about bullying like gossiping, ignoring people, developing cliques. The kind of abusive aggressive physical stuff that was seen at Columbine that Rocky and his ilk committed pre shooting is a totally different situation theres no developmental explanation for that,

However as I've stated numerous times this doesn't make it okay, right or acceptable in any form. I'll keep repeating this as much as I have to if people keep missing it and think I'm somehow defending bullying because I promise I'm not. I do not think bullying is okay or should happen just explaining why for the most part it does.

But its important to look at how and why bullying comes about so that things can be done to help prevent it and replace negative behaviors with positive ones. If you look at the most common forms of bullying as only a moral failing or something similar it's a lot harder to work on proactive solutions in my experience. And my experience is working with high risk youth with my LCSW.

I hope that makes sense.
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milennialrebelette



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For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 4 Empty
PostSubject: Re: For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying....   For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 4 Icon_minitimeSat Dec 22, 2018 2:33 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
No what I'm trying to say is my sister and my brother and all their friends didn't deserve to get shot at and killed because of bullying. That as adults with families of their own now they can grow and change.

I work with at risk youth and for my masters had to do a lot of research on youth socialization. I'll find the exact study but it's very common for teens to believe that while they're picked on they don't pick on others, however in the same social circle theres people who believe they're picked on/bullied by the person/persons who think theyre bullied not bullies. These studies also show how as part of the developmental stage teens are at, how bullying comes about, as teens start to develop their own independent sense of self and navigate peer groups outside their families, all mixed up with surging hormones.

When I say it's normal I'm in no way saying it's acceptable, okay or good. I apologize if I wasn't clear with my meaning, I'm using more sociology terms.

I think Columbine did bring a lot of attention to teen social dynamics in a good way, unfortunately we still have a lot of work to do, both as adults, teens and with the two groups working together.

Hi! I know this will be speculation and we can’t diagnose anything post Mortem But if you encountered Eric and Dylan  right now in your profession, would  they be considered at risk? Based on all the things that happened before. The arrest, the writings etc

Hmmm that is an excellent question!

I've mostly worked with inpatient at-risk teenage girls. For my internship during my masters program I started working for Hawai'i Office of Youth Services, so girls that are in the criminal justice system. They're almost all PoC, mostly kanaka maoi (Native Hawai'ian) girls like myself, Many are pregnant and/or have children. They come from abusive homes, both from where they grew up and the relationships they've gotten into. They get put into the system for things like petty theft, possession of various drugs, etc.

I stayed at the safe house after I graduated for almost two years before I came back to Colorado. I recently got a certificate for substance abuse counseling at Metro. I know have been working with a little less high risk group oat two of the schools for the Deaf on the front range. These students, other than their disabilities, are closer to I think how Eric and Dylan could have potentially been helped. I'm not a psychiatrist/doctor/qualified to give a mental health diagnosis, but just based on the kids I've worked with and what I've learned about Eric and Dylan. Also since Eric and Dylan aren't representative of the kids I usually end up working with, even when they were in the criminal justice system, they weren't sent to any juvenile detention centers or inpatient programs like teens who are less well off and PoC might be, so I'm just going to hypothesize as if they were in one of the inpatient programs I've worked in, if that makes sense. I can also compare it to how I've seen the system in action, which explains why JeffCo let Dylan andEric off so easily.

Starting with Dylan I hate to agree with Cullen here but he obviously was very depressed. I'm really shocked that his screening for his diversion did not pick this up and require mental health treatment as a condition of his program.I don't know if it was the case back in 1999 but Colorado now has laws that all juvenile must undergo a complete mental health screening when they are charged with a crime.60-70% of all juveniles who face any sort of criminal charges have some sort of mental health disorder. If he (and Eric) slipped through the cracks in JeffCo I'm not surprised. In addition to the bias in juvenile justice systems based on race and socioeconomic status, It's a HUGE county and it's full of independent type republicans who don't want to pay'taxes for anything and it's been resulting in understaffed programs, no money for roads schools, etc. It's kind of a mess.

But anyway back to Dylan, I'd personally see him as a high risk. I could see how JeffCo wouldn't though especially compared to a lot of the other juveniles the JeffCo office encounters (since there's the inner ring suburb of Lakewood and surrounding areas also in the county, and they have more traditional high risk kids, PoC,, low income, scattered families, gang influence, etc.) His substance abuse is a major red flag, it's not traditional teen experimentation but from what I've seen, pretty heavy/escalating dependence to deal with strong negative emotions. Add his reported bursts of anger from his parents, after periods of calm, and that goes hand in hand with the substance abuse as a problem. He had problems with his school work, which is another thing we look at for youth at risk, especially compared to their highest level of achievement (to make sure it's not a learning disability and or academic issue). Grades/schoolwork shows a lot more than just academic achievement, it shows if the youth can apply themselves, look at their future in a positive way, set goals, function well within social boundaries and expectations, etc. Slipping grades in a youth along with other red flags often shows a developing problem, Dylan is a prime example. His parents and others also reported how his hygiene seemed to deteriorate (greasy hair, not showering, dirty clothes) that's a major red flag for mental health problems for teens and adults. Combine all this together and I'd see Dylan as a high risk individual.

However with youth we also factor in their family/home environment when we assess them. This is why, to me, someone like Dylan who has almost every red flag except a history of violent crime and gang involvement, can be treated as a much lower risk. His family is intact, meaning he has both his mother and father together at home. They also have a home of their own, they're not homeless or transient, and they're both gainfully employed and financially secure. There's no history of violence or substance abuse from his immediate family, no known and easy access and or exposure to drugs or weapons.. They're both incredibly supportive.Since family, if at all possible, is such a major part of working with high risk youth, Dylan (and Eric to a slightly lesser, but not much, extent) both have very low risk family and home environments. This would be why diversion, which was looked at since the break in was seen as their first crime and non violent, was ultimately allowed. If they had high risk families, other options probably would have been looked at, likely community corrections or some other youth center.

Now Eric on the other hand, is harder to make an assessment of. He seems more open about his problems to authority figures but to differentiate if that was him actually trying to get help or just manipulate people requires a much higher level o expertise than I have. His anger does raise some red flags,I'd be concerned however most of it, at least that was seen before the shooting, was in writing. There's a fine line between what we encourage teens to do and express their anger in a non destructive way. Journaling would be a great example of this. I'd be a little more concerned if I had knowledge of him breaking Brooks' windshield and/or any other of the supposed outbursts he had. Eric doesn't seem to abuse substances like Dylan and his grades and classroom behavior are much, much better. The only thing that Eric would have as a slightly higher risk to me than Dylan is his dad's military service and how that effects the family environment. His dad didn't seem quite as willing to see a problem was there as Dylan's parents, in his defense though Eric didn't seem to show that there was a problem as much as Dylan. Still, his reluctance to see Eric's problems and do what it takes to help would be a little bit of a problem. The only other thing that would make Eric high risk would be the results of his mental health eval which he should of had done but didn't.

I hope this answers your question! It's hard to hypothesize in hindsight from a distance, but definitely an interesting challenge!
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rebel2013



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For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 4 Empty
PostSubject: Re: For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying....   For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 4 Icon_minitimeSat Dec 22, 2018 4:52 pm

Wouldn't the anger out burst be part of his depression, as I have seen on suicide prevention afsp that as sign of potential suicide is rage.
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milennialrebelette



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For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 4 Empty
PostSubject: Re: For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying....   For those who say Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.... - Page 4 Icon_minitimeSat Dec 22, 2018 8:39 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Wouldn't the anger out burst be part of his depression, as I have seen on suicide prevention afsp that as sign of potential suicide is rage.

That's a great point and definitely true when you're specifically doing a suicide assessment. The assessment I posted was a more general assessment I would do when first working with a juvenile for overall risk assessment, usually when a juvenile first enters the criminal justice system or a similar situation.

Since in Colorado all youths now must have a complete mental health assessment done as well so if suicide risk came up it would be there. That's done by a psychiatrist hopefully one with a background working with adolescents. I'm only a LCSW so that is bit above my qualifications. But later while working with one of my youths, and suicide risk came up I'd definitely look at any anger issues as a potential risk in that regard.

And again this is all hypothesizing, I'd never actually assess someone I had never worked with in peraon.
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