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 Successful columbine copycats......

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PostSubject: Successful columbine copycats......   Successful columbine copycats...... Icon_minitimeWed Jan 09, 2019 2:24 am

What are some successful columbine copycats?
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PostSubject: Re: Successful columbine copycats......   Successful columbine copycats...... Icon_minitimeWed Jan 09, 2019 2:36 am

The two I can think off the top of my head are Dimitrios Pagourtzis and Vladislav Roslyakov.

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PostSubject: Re: Successful columbine copycats......   Successful columbine copycats...... Icon_minitimeWed Jan 09, 2019 3:03 am

What's your definition of successful and what's your definition of a copycat?

Off the top of my head, Seung-Hui Cho, Adam Lanza, and Nikolas Cruz. All three studied or mentioned the attack on Columbine. All three had kill counts exceeding that of Eric and Dylan.

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PostSubject: Re: Successful columbine copycats......   Successful columbine copycats...... Icon_minitimeWed Jan 09, 2019 3:30 am

Martin Peyerl
Charles Williams
Robert Steinhauser
Daniel Gonzalez
Jeff Weise
Pekka Auvinen
Steven Kazmierczak
Matti Saari
Tim Kretschmer
Jerad Miller
Vester Flanagan
Chris Harper-Mercer
Randy Stair
https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Columbine_Copycats more here
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PostSubject: Re: Successful columbine copycats......   Successful columbine copycats...... Icon_minitimeWed Jan 09, 2019 11:27 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
What's your definition of successful and what's your definition of a copycat?

Off the top of my head, Seung-Hui Cho, Adam Lanza, and Nikolas Cruz. All three studied or mentioned the attack on Columbine. All three had kill counts exceeding that of Eric and Dylan.
Them looking up to Eric and Dylan as a source of inspiration doesn´t make them copycats. A copycat is literally wants to copy the set person/persons or actually BE them. Just look at Vladislav or Alvaro Castillo they literally wore the same clothes, weapons, bombs everything to BE their idols. 

They mention in a documentary that Seung Hui Cho got interested in Columbine when he was in High School if I remember correctly but that just means he was inspired by them and even if he idolized them to some extend it doesn´t make him a copycat. Are bodybuilders who look up to Arnold Schwarzenegger a copycat because they want to achieve the same body and goals as Arnold himself? No they were just inspired by him. 

So in conclusion imo a copycat is a person who is so obsessed with a person e.g. a school shooter/mass shooter that they want to BECOME that person they have no originality; their clothes, weapons even "their" reasons for doing the shooting is ripped of their idol.

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PostSubject: Re: Successful columbine copycats......   Successful columbine copycats...... Icon_minitimeWed Jan 09, 2019 12:58 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
What's your definition of successful and what's your definition of a copycat?

Off the top of my head, Seung-Hui Cho, Adam Lanza, and Nikolas Cruz. All three studied or mentioned the attack on Columbine. All three had kill counts exceeding that of Eric and Dylan.
Them looking up to Eric and Dylan as a source of inspiration doesn´t make them copycats. A copycat is literally wants to copy the set person/persons or actually BE them. Just look at Vladislav or Alvaro Castillo they literally wore the same clothes, weapons, bombs everything to BE their idols. 

They mention in a documentary that Seung Hui Cho got interested in Columbine when he was in High School if I remember correctly but that just means he was inspired by them and even if he idolized them to some extend it doesn´t make him a copycat. Are bodybuilders who look up to Arnold Schwarzenegger a copycat because they want to achieve the same body and goals as Arnold himself? No they were just inspired by him. 

So in conclusion imo a copycat is a person who is so obsessed with a person e.g. a school shooter/mass shooter that they want to BECOME that person they have no originality; their clothes, weapons even "their" reasons for doing the shooting is ripped of their idol.
This is certainly true if we are talking specifically about an Eric Harris or Dylan Klebold copycat but in the case of Cho or Pekka-Eric Auvinen for example they did not copy the persons but the crime they committed, the Columbine high school massacre. Does that not make them Columbine copycats? Ofcourse it depends on how much the original crime was replicated, placing Vladislav Roslyakov very high and the likes of Cho and Pekka-Eric Auvinen somewhere below him on the scale of how much they copycatted Columbine. Just my opinion on what it means to copycat Columbine but I think mine is rather close to how the term is normally used.

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PostSubject: Re: Successful columbine copycats......   Successful columbine copycats...... Icon_minitimeWed Jan 09, 2019 1:02 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
What's your definition of successful and what's your definition of a copycat?

Off the top of my head, Seung-Hui Cho, Adam Lanza, and Nikolas Cruz. All three studied or mentioned the attack on Columbine. All three had kill counts exceeding that of Eric and Dylan.
Nikolas Cruz failed or never meant to copycat Columbine because he was captured alive. In my opinion committing suicide is a key feature of being a Columbine copycat.

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PostSubject: Re: Successful columbine copycats......   Successful columbine copycats...... Icon_minitimeWed Jan 09, 2019 10:42 pm

Nobody has every attempted to copy what that 17 year old girl did back in 2014........ Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Successful columbine copycats......   Successful columbine copycats...... Icon_minitimeThu Jan 10, 2019 1:22 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
What's your definition of successful and what's your definition of a copycat?

Off the top of my head, Seung-Hui Cho, Adam Lanza, and Nikolas Cruz. All three studied or mentioned the attack on Columbine. All three had kill counts exceeding that of Eric and Dylan.
Them looking up to Eric and Dylan as a source of inspiration doesn´t make them copycats. A copycat is literally wants to copy the set person/persons or actually BE them. Just look at Vladislav or Alvaro Castillo they literally wore the same clothes, weapons, bombs everything to BE their idols.

They mention in a documentary that Seung Hui Cho got interested in Columbine when he was in High School if I remember correctly but that just means he was inspired by them and even if he idolized them to some extend it doesn´t make him a copycat. Are bodybuilders who look up to Arnold Schwarzenegger a copycat because they want to achieve the same body and goals as Arnold himself? No they were just inspired by him.

So in conclusion imo a copycat is a person who is so obsessed with a person e.g. a school shooter/mass shooter that they want to BECOME that person they have no originality; their clothes, weapons even "their" reasons for doing the shooting is ripped of their idol.
This is certainly true if we are talking specifically about an Eric Harris or Dylan Klebold copycat but in the case of Cho or Pekka-Eric Auvinen for example they did not copy the persons but the crime they committed, the Columbine high school massacre. Does that not make them Columbine copycats? Ofcourse it depends on how much the original crime was replicated, placing Vladislav Roslyakov very high and the likes of Cho and Pekka-Eric Auvinen somewhere below him on the scale of how much they copycatted Columbine. Just my opinion on what it means to copycat Columbine but I think mine is rather close to how the term is normally used.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
What's your definition of successful and what's your definition of a copycat?

Off the top of my head, Seung-Hui Cho, Adam Lanza, and Nikolas Cruz. All three studied or mentioned the attack on Columbine. All three had kill counts exceeding that of Eric and Dylan.
Nikolas Cruz failed or never meant to copycat Columbine because he was captured alive. In my opinion committing suicide is a key feature of being a Columbine copycat.

But why the restrictiveness? I think in cases like this it's better to cast a wide net. Most people aren't going to copy a mass murderer anyway, so by including cases where people were inspired to take up arms because of another killer I think we can get a more accurate analysis of just how far Columbine's legacy has reached in terms of others who've killed for Eric and Dylan.

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PostSubject: Re: Successful columbine copycats......   Successful columbine copycats...... Icon_minitimeThu Jan 10, 2019 8:01 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
What's your definition of successful and what's your definition of a copycat?

Off the top of my head, Seung-Hui Cho, Adam Lanza, and Nikolas Cruz. All three studied or mentioned the attack on Columbine. All three had kill counts exceeding that of Eric and Dylan.
Them looking up to Eric and Dylan as a source of inspiration doesn´t make them copycats. A copycat is literally wants to copy the set person/persons or actually BE them. Just look at Vladislav or Alvaro Castillo they literally wore the same clothes, weapons, bombs everything to BE their idols.

They mention in a documentary that Seung Hui Cho got interested in Columbine when he was in High School if I remember correctly but that just means he was inspired by them and even if he idolized them to some extend it doesn´t make him a copycat. Are bodybuilders who look up to Arnold Schwarzenegger a copycat because they want to achieve the same body and goals as Arnold himself? No they were just inspired by him.

So in conclusion imo a copycat is a person who is so obsessed with a person e.g. a school shooter/mass shooter that they want to BECOME that person they have no originality; their clothes, weapons even "their" reasons for doing the shooting is ripped of their idol.
This is certainly true if we are talking specifically about an Eric Harris or Dylan Klebold copycat but in the case of Cho or Pekka-Eric Auvinen for example they did not copy the persons but the crime they committed, the Columbine high school massacre. Does that not make them Columbine copycats? Ofcourse it depends on how much the original crime was replicated, placing Vladislav Roslyakov very high and the likes of Cho and Pekka-Eric Auvinen somewhere below him on the scale of how much they copycatted Columbine. Just my opinion on what it means to copycat Columbine but I think mine is rather close to how the term is normally used.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
What's your definition of successful and what's your definition of a copycat?

Off the top of my head, Seung-Hui Cho, Adam Lanza, and Nikolas Cruz. All three studied or mentioned the attack on Columbine. All three had kill counts exceeding that of Eric and Dylan.
Nikolas Cruz failed or never meant to copycat Columbine because he was captured alive. In my opinion committing suicide is a key feature of being a Columbine copycat.

But why the restrictiveness? I think in cases like this it's better to cast a wide net. Most people aren't going to copy a mass murderer anyway, so by including cases where people were inspired to take up arms because of another killer I think we can get a more accurate analysis of just how far Columbine's legacy has reached in terms of others who've killed for Eric and Dylan.
Yes ofcourse he was inspired by Columbine and the Columbine shooters, but in my opinion that does not necessarily make him a copycat. A copycat is someone who wants to commit a crime strikingly similar to the Columbine massacre and I do not think anything where the perpetrator or perpetrators intentionally do not commit suicide bears a huge resemblance to the Columbine massacre. Just my opinion and perhaps I am wrong with it.

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PostSubject: Re: Successful columbine copycats......   Successful columbine copycats...... Icon_minitimeThu Jan 10, 2019 4:25 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:

Yes ofcourse he was inspired by Columbine and the Columbine shooters, but in my opinion that does not necessarily make him a copycat.

I think with this particular circumstance it's a distinction without difference since at the end of the day, people are taking up arms and killing because of Eric and Dylan's action.

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PostSubject: Re: Successful columbine copycats......   Successful columbine copycats...... Icon_minitimeThu Jan 10, 2019 4:35 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:

Yes ofcourse he was inspired by Columbine and the Columbine shooters, but in my opinion that does not necessarily make him a copycat.

I think with this particular circumstance it's a distinction without difference since at the end of the day, people are taking up arms and killing because of Eric and Dylan's action.
So tell me then, if I kill in Jesus' name am I a Jesus Christ copycat? Sounds hard to believe to me. Murder sounds like a peculiar way to copy a man who forgave his executioners, an infamous murderer and the whole rest of humanity, during his execution. Someone who's most famous quote maybe is the "turn the other cheeck" one, doesen't sound like advicing to slaughter your classmates who bullied you or a girl who rejected you to me, but well I am nothing but the God of my own life so how could I know.

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PostSubject: Re: Successful columbine copycats......   Successful columbine copycats...... Icon_minitimeThu Jan 10, 2019 9:24 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:

Yes ofcourse he was inspired by Columbine and the Columbine shooters, but in my opinion that does not necessarily make him a copycat.

I think with this particular circumstance it's a distinction without difference since at the end of the day, people are taking up arms and killing because of Eric and Dylan's action.
So tell me then, if I kill in Jesus' name am I a Jesus Christ copycat? Sounds hard to believe to me. Murder sounds like a peculiar way to copy a man who forgave his executioners, an infamous murderer and the whole rest of humanity, during his execution. Someone who's most famous quote maybe is the "turn the other cheeck" one, doesen't sound like advicing to slaughter your classmates who bullied you or a girl who rejected you to me, but well I am nothing but the God of my own life so how could I know.

I'm afraid I have a hard time following your logic.

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PostSubject: Re: Successful columbine copycats......   Successful columbine copycats...... Icon_minitimeFri Jan 11, 2019 1:44 am

@11B-X-1371 Since the quote feature doesn't work for me, I'll just 'at' you.
If a person were to kill in Jesus' name they would be a Christian terrorist, not a Jesus Christ copycat.
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PostSubject: Re: Successful columbine copycats......   Successful columbine copycats...... Icon_minitimeFri Jan 11, 2019 6:11 am

NSAhoneypot wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] Since the quote feature doesn't work for me, I'll just 'at' you.
If a person were to kill in Jesus' name they would be a Christian terrorist, not a Jesus Christ copycat.
Indeed, then why if a person were to kill in Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold's name would they be a Columbine copycat, not a Columbine inspired killer or even terrorist if the attack was highly political (example Jokela 7.11.2007). In my logic if a person is a Columbine copycat his intention is to be remembered for reliving Columbine and usually topping its body count, to properly do this you do need to be hellbent on suicide. Nikolas Cruz did not seem to particularly copy anything from Columbine into his attack, and he did not commit suicide even tho he had ample opportunity to do so. The only way to make me believe otherwise about his case would be if I were to see him in his writing prior to the attack talk about it as copying Columbine per se, more than just shooting up a school. I hope this clears up my thought process.

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PostSubject: Re: Successful columbine copycats......   Successful columbine copycats...... Icon_minitimeFri Jan 11, 2019 3:12 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:

Yes ofcourse he was inspired by Columbine and the Columbine shooters, but in my opinion that does not necessarily make him a copycat.

I think with this particular circumstance it's a distinction without difference since at the end of the day, people are taking up arms and killing because of Eric and Dylan's action.
So tell me then, if I kill in Jesus' name am I a Jesus Christ copycat? Sounds hard to believe to me. Murder sounds like a peculiar way to copy a man who forgave his executioners, an infamous murderer and the whole rest of humanity, during his execution. Someone who's most famous quote maybe is the "turn the other cheeck" one, doesen't sound like advicing to slaughter your classmates who bullied you or a girl who rejected you to me, but well I am nothing but the God of my own life so how could I know.

I'm afraid I have a hard time following your logic.
My logic is that whether or not you are copycatting something is not determined by if you do it in that thing's (Eric Harris, Columbine) name or not, but by whether or not you copy multiple details of the original (weapons, gear, planning) with a clear goal of doing so, not unintentionally for example. For me the fact you shot people inside a school is not a big enough connection to say you did it with a purpose of copycatting the Columbine massacre or the Columbine killers, if you also mentioned Columbine in some media you left behind, either did not provide complex explanations of your own or provided ones that either include copying Columbine or very similar material to what reasons the Columbine killers stated were behind their attack and in my opinion quite importantly committed or attempted to commit suicide after your shooting.
Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold wen't to Columbine high school on the 20th of April 1999 with the clear intention of dying there that very day, Nikolas Cruz intended to live past his attack. I think this is a huge reason to believe he did not commit his crime with the purpose of copying Columbine to much detal, he just committed the same crime as the Columbine killers, mass murder. I am not saying you can not be a Columbine copycat without committing suicide after your crime, but I think that in such scenario you would have to copy either the historical Columbine massacre or the boys' original plan for it, pretty much to the letter to have enough similarity to qualify as a copycat.

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PostSubject: Re: Successful columbine copycats......   Successful columbine copycats...... Icon_minitimeFri Jan 11, 2019 3:20 pm

Kimveer Gill comes to mind, as he:
Used similar weapons (9mm carbine and was armed with a shotgun)
Wore similar clothes (trenchcoat)
Actually got a kill (though only 1)
Committed suicide at the end
Also, could the Emsdetten shooting be considered a successful copycat? No one died except the perpetrator, however it's also very similar to Columbine and he still managed to pull it off, despite no kills.
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PostSubject: Re: Successful columbine copycats......   Successful columbine copycats...... Icon_minitimeFri Jan 11, 2019 4:51 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:

My logic is that whether or not you are copycatting something is not determined by if you do it in that thing's (Eric Harris, Columbine) name or not, but by whether or not you copy multiple details of the original (weapons, gear, planning) with a clear goal of doing so, not unintentionally for example. For me the fact you shot people inside a school is not a big enough connection to say you did it with a purpose of copycatting the Columbine massacre or the Columbine killers, if you also mentioned Columbine in some media you left behind, either did not provide complex explanations of your own or provided ones that either include copying Columbine or very similar material to what reasons the Columbine killers stated were behind their attack and in my opinion quite importantly committed or attempted to commit suicide after your shooting.
Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold wen't to Columbine high school on the 20th of April 1999 with the clear intention of dying there that very day, Nikolas Cruz intended to live past his attack. I think this is a huge reason to believe he did not commit his crime with the purpose of copying Columbine to much detal, he just committed the same crime as the Columbine killers, mass murder. I am not saying you can not be a Columbine copycat without committing suicide after your crime, but I think that in such scenario you would have to copy either the historical Columbine massacre or the boys' original plan for it, pretty much to the letter to have enough similarity to qualify as a copycat.

Ok, I understand what you're getting at here now, but I'm not sure I entirely agree with it. I think we're gonna reach an impasse on this so I'm just gonna drop it.

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PostSubject: Re: Successful columbine copycats......   Successful columbine copycats...... Icon_minitimeFri Jan 11, 2019 5:51 pm

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Well it was nice disagreeing with you.
It is true that if you now understund me but still disagree about my opinion we should stop this here, or we risk leaving the territory of intellectual dispute and ending up in a typical YouTube comment section.

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PostSubject: Re: Successful columbine copycats......   Successful columbine copycats...... Icon_minitimeWed Apr 07, 2021 5:53 pm

Pekka Eric Auvinen, Vladislav Roslyakov, James Holmes (Maybe? I heard somewhere he liked Eric and Dylan), Chris Harper Mercer, Seung Hui Cho, Jeff Weise, Dimitrios Pagourtzis, I may be missing some but that's who I think are successful at the moment.
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PostSubject: Re: Successful columbine copycats......   Successful columbine copycats...... Icon_minitimeWed Apr 07, 2021 10:48 pm

Guilherme Taucci Monteiro and Luiz Henrique de Castro
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PostSubject: Re: Successful columbine copycats......   Successful columbine copycats...... Icon_minitimeWed Apr 07, 2021 11:00 pm

Vlad Roslyakov is the obvious one.

Jeff Weise, Sebastian Bosse, and Dimitrios Pagourtzi could be considered copycats?

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PostSubject: Re: Successful columbine copycats......   Successful columbine copycats...... Icon_minitimeWed Apr 07, 2021 11:54 pm

DF978 wrote:
Vlad Roslyakov is the obvious one.

Jeff Weise, Sebastian Bosse, and Dimitrios Pagourtzi could be considered copycats?
True, but well Sebastian Bosse wasn't really successful.
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PostSubject: Re: Successful columbine copycats......   Successful columbine copycats...... Icon_minitimeWed Apr 07, 2021 11:56 pm

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PostSubject: Re: Successful columbine copycats......   Successful columbine copycats...... Icon_minitimeThu Apr 08, 2021 12:01 am

I guess José Ángel Ramos Betts.
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9mmtomyhead
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PostSubject: Re: Successful columbine copycats......   Successful columbine copycats...... Icon_minitimeThu Apr 08, 2021 4:17 pm

Kimveer Gill as well, he killed 1 person.
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PostSubject: Re: Successful columbine copycats......   Successful columbine copycats...... Icon_minitimeSat Apr 10, 2021 1:39 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
James Holmes (Maybe? I heard somewhere he liked Eric and Dylan)

I heard it quite a lot, but could never find any evidence for this claim, and, to be honest, it sounds too outlandish to be true. While I would not rule anything out and would certainly appreciate it if anyone has additional info on this, I think perhaps this rumor started because two of the jurors at his trial were former Columbine students (one of them a former friend of Eric and Dylan), and people are attributing false connections to Columbine to Holmes simply because they are misremembering.

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PostSubject: Re: Successful columbine copycats......   Successful columbine copycats...... Icon_minitimeTue Jun 08, 2021 11:58 am

Not quite what you were looking for, but Marri Saari killed more than Pekka-Eric Auvinen, who he was essentially a copycat of.

On the topic of copycats outdoing their original, Laurie Dann (wounded 6, killed 1) directly inspired James Wilson, who admitted copying her and reading about her everyday for four months. He killed 2 and wounded 9 in his attack.
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