Motivations?

Hello all! First time poster, long time reader and researcher,

One of my biggest pet peeves is when people refer to Eric and Dylan as one entity instead of two completely separate people. Both boys definitely had different intentions that day, and their behaviors were completely different that day: for example, Eric was focused more on homocide, whereas Dylan was more focused on suicide.

This may have already been discussed on this message board, but here is my question: What was each boy’s motivation for the conclusion of their rampage, or for their suicides? Was it because that was the ultimate goal? Was it to avoid arrest and jail? Was it to gain marytr status? A combination? My belief is that it was different for each. Eric wanted to avoid prosecution and gain marytr status. Dylan’s entire purpose for the massacre was to end his life.

I go against the grain here and say that suicide wasn't Dylan's main aim of the shooting. I know people like to say that Dylan was the only one who got what he wanted that day, because suicide was his goal but I don't believe it.

He never wrote about his fear of suicide, I don't believe he "needed" to kill and hurt all those people in order to commit suicide. He needed to kill and terrify people because he despised the "zombies", the people he believed he was superior to and who had tormented throughout his life with their rejection (both real and imagined). He felt Godlike in his dissociation (brought on by his depression) and wanted to show a "Godlike" wrath to those who displeased him. He wanted to have his voice heard for once, he wanted people to notice his rage and pain.

When you look at most murder-suicide (often by intimate partners or parents and their children), the suicide is usually to avoid facing the consequences of your actions. Classic scenario is you are a divorced dad (or less frequently a mum) who wants to punish their ex-partner by killing the children then yourself. You haven't killed the children as it is the only way you can bring yourself to commit suicide, you kill your children in order to cause a lifetime of mental anguish to the person you hate most in the world (your ex).

Both boys probably fully realised that there was no going back after they started roaming around the library shooting at bookshelves, computers etc. It was either they die there or get imprisoned for life and who knows else what.

I believe that after the bombs failed to go off and after shooting a few people, Eric began to lose the thrill feeling. Although, one of them suggested to start stabbing people, the thrill was just gone and the original plan was a failure. However, they still managed to kill and wound people which might've fed their satisfaction but at the same time if they did get caught, they would definitely had been jailed for life. So, I believe Eric did it to escape prosecution because his other idea was to escape, hijack a plane and head for New York.

As for Dylan, suicide was definitely the end game for him. After years and years of all that built up pain and anger from bullying, mental health issues etc.; he definitely wasn't leaving Columbine alive. He had been wanting to suicide with his love as his original goal of NBK but remember that he never told her about his feelings (or the girl wasn't his true love etc.). Anyways, with Eric, Dylan found that he could execute NBK and use that to suicide - I believe there is a line from his journal that says "In 26.4 hours ill be dead, & in happiness", generally pointing that he used the massacre for his suicide.

shadowofthewill wrote:

Both boys probably fully realised that there was no going back after they started roaming around the library shooting at bookshelves, computers etc. It was either they die there or get imprisoned for life and who knows else what.

I believe that after the bombs failed to go off and after shooting a few people, Eric began to lose the thrill feeling. Although, one of them suggested to start stabbing people, the thrill was just gone and the original plan was a failure. However, they still managed to kill and wound people which might've fed their satisfaction but at the same time if they did get caught, they would definitely had been jailed for life. So, I believe Eric did it to escape prosecution because his other idea was to escape, hijack a plane and head for New York.

As for Dylan, suicide was definitely the end game for him. After years and years of all that built up pain and anger from bullying, mental health issues etc.; he definitely wasn't leaving Columbine alive. He had been wanting to suicide with his love as his original goal of NBK but remember that he never told her about his feelings (or the girl wasn't his true love etc.). Anyways, with Eric, Dylan found that he could execute NBK and use that to suicide - I believe there is a line from his journal that says "In 26.4 hours ill be dead, & in happiness", generally pointing that he used the massacre for his suicide.

I know I should hate them,but I feel a little bad for both of them at the same time.

Pixie13 wrote:

He never wrote about his fear of suicide

I don't believe he "needed" to kill and hurt all those people in order to commit suicide. He needed to kill and terrify people because he despised the "zombies", the people he believed he was superior to and who had tormented throughout his life with their rejection (both real and imagined). He felt Godlike in his dissociation (brought on by his depression) and wanted to show a "Godlike" wrath to those who displeased him. He wanted to have his voice heard for once, he wanted people to notice his rage and pain.

1. We know that Dylan wrote about experiencing symptoms of severe depression over 2 years before the tragedy. It isn’t a big leap from depression to committing suicide.

2. The excerpts where he writes about being Godlike and superior, those are both symptoms of dissociation (another form of mental illness, as well as sounding like revenge/power (which neither had).

3. Dylan’s exhibited behavior that day seemed as if he was having the time of his life. His behavior was out of the norm (for him) and more exaggerated than Eric’s. You can hear him screaming and taunting his victims right before he shot and killed them on the 911 library tape.

shadowofthewill wrote:

I believe that after the bombs failed to go off and after shooting a few people, Eric began to lose the thrill feeling.

Although, one of them suggested to start stabbing people, the thrill was just gone and the original plan was a failure.

So, I believe Eric did it to escape prosecution because his other idea was to escape, hijack a plane and head for New York.

As for Dylan, suicide was definitely the end game for him. After years and years of all that built up pain and anger from bullying, mental health issues etc.; he definitely wasn't leaving Columbine alive.

Anyways, with Eric, Dylan found that he could execute NBK and use that to suicide

I completely 100% agree with all of your points. You make some excellent points. Please bear with me as I’m trying to figure out how to quote on here.

1. There were witnesses in the 11K who point out that they saw either Eric or Dylan peeping in classrooms, seeing students in hiding, but didn’t make any attempts to enter the room. I just cannot remember which classroom/classrooms it was. Do you?

2. In the Zero Hour documentary it was Eric as quoted as saying that maybe it would be more fun to start knifing people. The boys were in the library.

3. Do you think he truly believed those grandiose ideas, that they would be able to escape? That was also the area in his journal where he’s talking about how massive this event would be. It is truly ironic with what he mentions here and what does happen a little over 2 years later in NYC.

4. Even Sue Klebold herself in AMR writes that it was obvious to her that once he went in, Dylan didn’t expect to leave the school alive.

5. Yes. Even up to the end he writes about how he can still can change his mind about going NBK. It’s actually sad. It also makes you think how much different things could have turned. Without Dylan, would Eric ever go through something so massive by himself?

[/quote] I know I should hate them,but I feel a little bad for both of them at the same time. [/quote]

Dylan has always pulled at my heartstrings. That, of course, is not condoning his actions. It seems as if he was living in his own personal hell for a long time beforehand. Eric doesn’t get as much compassion from me, but it seems like he also had to deal with a lot of mental health issues beforehand.

true_crime wrote:

1. There were witnesses in the 11K who point out that they saw either Eric or Dylan peeping in classrooms, seeing students in hiding, but didn’t make any attempts to enter the room. I just cannot remember which classroom/classrooms it was. Do you?

Unfortunately it has been a while since I've gone through the 11k so I don't remember who saw them walk by either but I'll have another look through it to refresh

true_crime wrote:

3. Do you think he truly believed those grandiose ideas, that they would be able to escape? That was also the area in his journal where he’s talking about how massive this event would be. It is truly ironic with what he mentions here and what does happen a little over 2 years later in NYC.

The idea to escape to New York was just a fantasy for sure (maybe a what could've been the ending) because where in the world would Eric find the resources to actually hijack a plane? And if he did manage to hijack, who would pilot the plane? And yes, you're right - kinda interesting how it also falls on Dylan's birthday out of all days too

true_crime wrote:

5. Yes. Even up to the end he writes about how he can still can change his mind about going NBK. It’s actually sad. It also makes you think how much different things could have turned. Without Dylan, would Eric ever go through something so massive by himself?

Both fed of each other for sure for the massacre. What we know, is that they both used each others pain and anger to fuel it. I think if one didn't have the other, the massacre might've not fallen through. However, we can only guess that if it never happened and their pain continued, maybe one would've suicided and the other might've hurt people or they both could've chosen the same path but like I said, we can only guess

bradt93 wrote:

I know I should hate them,but I feel a little bad for both of them at the same time.

It's alright to feel that way, I'm sure other users on this forum feel the same but obviously we don't condone the shooting. Both boys had been through a lot right before the massacre. Dylan seemed to be more emotional and was battling mental illness and it can be seen through his journal; as it counts down towards the massacre, Dylan is more ready to go through and meet his end game. As for Eric, he showed a more angrier side but he was battling mental illness but still had a soft spot that was seen for Sparky.

Just makes you think about what could've been if they had gotten the right help and support

Eric and Dylan needed to know that they were loved by their peers and they didn't feel that they were. They thought everyone was against them and I don't know why. Is it a psychological condition? I have no idea, but it doesn't make sense. For example, Eric wrote in his journal saying "you all had my number, why didn't you all invite me to events"? I think they should've included Eric in special events, no reason not too. I think everyone thought they were better than Eric and Dylan and that kind of mentality is what's wrong with society.

shadowofthewill wrote:

true_crime wrote:

1. There were witnesses in the 11K who point out that they saw either Eric or Dylan peeping in classrooms, seeing students in hiding, but didn’t make any attempts to enter the room. I just cannot remember which classroom/classrooms it was. Do you?

Unfortunately it has been a while since I've gone through the 11k so I don't remember who saw them walk by either but I'll have another look through it to refresh

true_crime wrote:

3. Do you think he truly believed those grandiose ideas, that they would be able to escape? That was also the area in his journal where he’s talking about how massive this event would be. It is truly ironic with what he mentions here and what does happen a little over 2 years later in NYC.

The idea to escape to New York was just a fantasy for sure (maybe a what could've been the ending) because where in the world would Eric find the resources to actually hijack a plane? And if he did manage to hijack, who would pilot the plane? And yes, you're right - kinda interesting how it also falls on Dylan's birthday out of all days too

true_crime wrote:

5. Yes. Even up to the end he writes about how he can still can change his mind about going NBK. It’s actually sad. It also makes you think how much different things could have turned. Without Dylan, would Eric ever go through something so massive by himself?

Both fed of each other for sure for the massacre. What we know, is that they both used each others pain and anger to fuel it. I think if one didn't have the other, the massacre might've not fallen through. However, we can only guess that if it never happened and their pain continued, maybe one would've suicided and the other might've hurt people or they both could've chosen the same path but like I said, we can only guess

Eric had some delusions of grandeur but I think he was just writing and thinking about crazy stuff... like "wouldn't this be amazing?" however I don't think Dylan wanted to leave the school alive that day, let alone spend the rest of his life with Eric on an island.....

true_crime wrote:

2. In the Zero Hour documentary it was Eric as quoted as saying that maybe it would be more fun to start knifing people. The boys were in the library.

"In the Zero Hour documentary" should be met with "So what", and while it's worth me reviewing the statements, I doubt very much that was Eric. Practically the whole of who says what and where in the library scene can be contradicted by witness statements. Going from memory, for one, they weren't at the entrance when they were talking about jocks or said fine I'll start shooting. Also, it's well known that Dylan was the vocal one in the library, not Eric. Also, Dylan's journal talks more about resenting jocks than Eric's does.  

Jocks stand up was Dylan, not Eric, and he was between the computer rows, according to Bree Pasquale (usually said to be the most perceptive witness). "Fine I'll just start shooting" (not 'anyway' I don't think, not sure where that comes from) was said by Dylan according to Kacey Ruegsegger, and she would have been inches from him. It was before shooting Patrick/Daniel/Makai, at least 2 of whom I think were wearing white hats. It's not said by Eric before he shoots at Evan Todd at the entrance. Also, when Eric shot under the computer tables, killing Steven and injuring Kacey, he was not shooting blindly and standing up, he was down on one knee. I think Kacey sitting sideways saved her. All pretty forgivable mistakes really - they are mistakes made in the sources they would have looked at, but it's not the thing to cite.

As I recall, Dylan is the one who talks about knifing people in the Basement Tapes. He's the one who wrote the report on the Manson murders - which were stabbings. In fact, have you considered when they were supposed to be stabbing people, had the bombs gone off and things went as planned? It seems apparent to me it would not have been at the beginning. They were to shoot and toss bombs at people from outside after the bombs went off. No reason to stab when you've got the ammo and you wouldn't have been up close anyway, and when there would have been so many people.  When Dylan says the whole "it will be the most nerve wracking fifteen minutes before we charge the school" or whatever, I think he means an estimated 15 minutes of shooting before people eventually turn around. They would eventually realize running out of the cafeteria meant getting shot to death, yes? So they would run up the cafeteria stairs. Then Eric and Dylan would enter the west entrance and cut them off. Here I think is where the stabbings were to come in. And again, this is Dylan talking about it.  Eventually in another fifteen minutes or so the same thing happens again - people realize running up the cafeteria stairs is a death sentence, and they run back into the parking lot. Then the car bombs come in.

I think this is why we have the sequence of grinning Dylan checking on the bombs, seeing people run up the stairs, going to Eric, saying this is awesome and what we always wanted to do, and entering the west entrance.  Why I think they were on the stairs and "they planned to shoot from the cars" in general is bs. They knew people weren't going to run into the parking lot forever.

Also, I agree with you that people need to see them separately, and would say that insight is one of the few things Cullen is good for. As for the motive for their suicides, it's hard to tease that apart from the motives for their crimes. When it comes to was it mental illness like psychopathy or depression, or revenge for bullying, or hatred of isolation and technology, or to start a revolution, or to rebel against the injustice of life, or to play out a movie or video game or kmfdm song, I tend to lean towards "all of the above" (though I certainly don't think they were crazy).   As for a main motivation and ones which are ignored, I'd say something like: Dylan was intimidated by girls and felt he had missed his chance on having a girlfriend or finding love before graduating, Eric was intimidated by the rat race and boring 9-5 conformist life awaiting after graduation.  Eric wanted to be a wild animal rather than a drone. "Tier" (German for animal, not the English meaning layer or whatever), "Natural Selection".  Dylan wanted revenge for what had been taken from him and the jocks enjoyed instead, "The lonely man strikes with absolute rage", "Wrath".

Could we also agree that perhaps there were multiple motivations for each young man? For example, Dylan was motivated by depression/suicide/mental health issues, loneliness, and the need for revenge/power (which were sorely lacking in his life, as well as any sense of control). Eric was motivated by homocide, wreaking havoc, and martyrdom. Both fueled each other, and both desperately needed some sense of control in their lives.

A guy named basedshaman on YT summed it up like this. "does anybody like jocks, you know besides other jocks" Sometimes he goes into school shootings and stuff like that.

true_crime wrote:

Could we also agree that perhaps there were multiple motivations for each young man? For example, Dylan was motivated by depression/suicide/mental health issues, loneliness, and the need for revenge/power (which were sorely lacking in his life, as well as any sense of control). Eric was motivated by homocide, wreaking havoc, and martyrdom. Both fueled each other, and both desperately needed some sense of control in their lives.

I can agree with this!!

bradt93 wrote:

Eric and Dylan needed to know that they were loved by their peers and they didn't feel that they were. They thought everyone was against them and I don't know why. Is it a psychological condition? I have no idea, but it doesn't make sense. For example, Eric wrote in his journal saying "you all had my number, why didn't you all invite me to events"? I think they should've included Eric in special events, no reason not too. I think everyone thought they were better than Eric and Dylan and that kind of mentality is what's wrong with society.

Pretty sure that's a symptom of depression, however I could be wrong. Also, you have to remember the time period in which it happened was conservative in general. The high school cliques in Columbine were found to be especially divided; if you weren't into all the sports hype and had different interests, you were considered to be an outcast and weren't worth associating with. Times have changed since then, however that's not to say cliques are/aren't still active, they may be more evident in some schools more than others.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] it also cannot be emphasized enough that there was a much higher incidence in rates of physical and mental/emotional bullying at the time than today. If bullying, teenagers today commit social media/electronic bullying.

shadowofthewill wrote:

bradt93 wrote:

Eric and Dylan needed to know that they were loved by their peers and they didn't feel that they were. They thought everyone was against them and I don't know why. Is it a psychological condition? I have no idea, but it doesn't make sense. For example, Eric wrote in his journal saying "you all had my number, why didn't you all invite me to events"? I think they should've included Eric in special events, no reason not too. I think everyone thought they were better than Eric and Dylan and that kind of mentality is what's wrong with society.

Pretty sure that's a symptom of depression, however I could be wrong. Also, you have to remember the time period in which it happened was conservative in general. The high school cliques in Columbine were found to be especially divided; if you weren't into all the sports hype and had different interests, you were considered to be an outcast and weren't worth associating with. Times have changed since then, however that's not to say cliques are/aren't still active, they may be more evident in some schools more than others.

Very true and if they had things like I-Phones back then Eric and Dylan could've recorded every embarrassing and unnecessary things that happened to them and posted it on social media. They might've gotten in trouble by the school, but knowing all the bullies faces all over the interney would make me satisfied.

Very good points. Also, of course I’m no expert, but working with young people who are at the beginning stages of adolescence, sometimes it is difficult to differentiate symptoms of mental health from behaviors of young people at that point in their lives. It’s pointed out in AMR how Dylan’s mom mistook anger as “normal” teenage angst rather than depression.

The boys spoke many times about how everyone will be questioning “why?” once they’ve gone through with NBK, they also speak in the basement tapes about not only some of their motives but also how they think the cops will already butcher it and only show the people what they want them to see.

This is why I fully believe Eric and Dylan laid out their specific individual motives for everyone to see where the authorities couldn’t censor it, their custom shirts they made for that day.

Eric couldn’t help but mention how great natural selection was any chance he got.
Dylan even said “My wrath for January’s incident will be godlike”
That day, Dylan was the embodiment of his wrath.
This also explains why in the library Dylan was reported by many as the more vocal, angrier, scarier one while Eric wasn’t so much.


But of course that’s just my opinion