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Columbine High School Massacre Discussion Forum
A place to discuss the Columbine High School Massacre along with other school shootings and crimes. Anyone interested in researching, learning, discussing and debating with us, please come join our community!
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Subject: Re: The small question thread Part 2. Wed Jun 03, 2020 11:16 am
Didn’t they compare all the separate cctv recordings, calls and witness statements to come to that conclusion?
cakeman
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Subject: Re: The small question thread Part 2. Thu Jun 04, 2020 2:59 am
Well I'm asking since I don't know of course. The CCTV didn't get them outside. The CCTV inside had that 'tape change' and so isn't recording anything until 11:22, though people do seem to be reacting by then. Patty's phone call was 11:25 (I think she was shot first regardless, given e. g. Bree's statement, but 11:25 seems a while to get there from 11:20, maybe 5 mins to get kids to hide). I'm not aware of any witnesses saying like "I looked at the clock" rather than estimating. So, I wonder why 11:19. It's so specific that I trust they have a reason. My interpretation of the massacre assumes it's correct. But I've not seen a lot to suggest it. Then there's curiosities like Rachel's receipt. I've never heard something like for the suicides, where they have the detection of the smoke from that final Molotov cocktail.
I think that first bomb was set for 11:20, so I wonder if curiously knowing 11:19 shows they know that too. I also wonder if it's wrong, and then of course I need to revise my understanding. Maybe they're right that they started shooting two minutes later (I don't think so, one minute early makes sense to me), but we should think 11:22, rather than 11:19. Lots of options without knowing the reasoning behind 11:19, and I confess I don't know.
Onyx Top Contributor
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Subject: Re: The small question thread Part 2. Thu Jun 04, 2020 5:58 am
The timers of bombs in the cafeteria were set to 11:17 AM.
And this is Brooks Brown's statement: "At 11:19 AM, he heard the first gunshots after he had walked some distance away from the school, and informed the police via a neighbor's cell phone"
cakeman
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Subject: Re: The small question thread Part 2. Fri Jun 05, 2020 11:44 am
Onyx wrote:
The timers of bombs in the cafeteria were set to 11:17 AM.
And this is Brooks Brown's statement: "At 11:19 AM, he heard the first gunshots after he had walked some distance away from the school, and informed the police via a neighbor's cell phone"
I know 11:17 is the orthodox story, but I don't buy it. The source for that seems to be Dylan's notes, not from a photo of the clocks (pfp) or bombs themselves or an investigative report or something, and those notes seem nothing to go by. Not even sure it makes sense to have two bombs set for the same time. Could just build one bomb the size of two then. Why go to the trouble of building two, and then lose the complexity of two by having them at the same time? Also they clearly speak of a bomb still in play in the library, and I see no better reason for them to stop and leave to go to it than it failing then, not before. Rebecca Parker's statement notes they say "Oh, it didn't work." before leaving. There also seem to be ambiguous statements from e. g. Cullen and Krabbe that those kind of clocks can only have the alarm set at five-minute intervals.
Back to 11:19, I wonder whether that's inserted by them assuming the timeline for some other reason, but I guess that makes sense. Brooks watch (did he wear one) and memory of the first shots could be the source. Though that seems weird as it was far away and Brooks's story always seemed a little mysterious. I know it says approximately 11:20 for when Patti decided to tell them to knock it off, and I believe that actually happened first. That was the best thing I had before considering Brooks.
Onyx Top Contributor
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Subject: Re: The small question thread Part 2. Fri Jun 05, 2020 6:57 pm
If Dylan wrote that the bombs in the cafeteria would explode at 11:17, and the car ones at 11:18, I don’t know what we can trust for real other than their notes. I'm familiar about 5-min intervals, maybe they set them up at 11:20, but then it doesn’t make sense that the first shots were heard at 11:19. I guess they would have known in advance these clocks could not be set at 11:17/11:18, right?
They probably made two bombs to be sure at least one would explode.
When they mentioned bombs in their conversation in the library, I think they meant how they will try to detonate them with bullets, just as we see in the cafeteria footage.
cakeman
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Subject: Re: The small question thread Part 2. Sat Jun 06, 2020 6:18 am
Onyx wrote:
If Dylan wrote that the bombs in the cafeteria would explode at 11:17, and the car ones at 11:18, I don’t know what we can trust for real other than their notes. I'm familiar about 5-min intervals, maybe they set them up at 11:20, but then it doesn’t make sense that the first shots were heard at 11:19. I guess they would have known in advance these clocks could not be set at 11:17/11:18, right?
They probably made two bombs to be sure at least one would explode.
When they mentioned bombs in their conversation in the library, I think they meant how they will try to detonate them with bullets, just as we see in the cafeteria footage.
I didn't really want to get bogged down in my theory so much as just I'm curious how we are certain about 11:19 given the ramifications changing that would have to my theory. But I can't help my self to correct some of this: Nobody believes the car bombs were set to 11:18, and he wrote also that they would be set for 11:16 in Eric's planner. And Eric wrote 11:15 for when the cafeteria was full. So on the contrary I would press that on pain of contradiction we cannot trust their notes. Why pick 17? Simply the facts should decide whether we care about the notes; the notes shouldn't decide the facts.
And Dylan wrote 11:09 for planting the bombs, but that's not even considered one of the options for when. 11:10 is when class let out. So 11:09 probably just means before class let out; and 11:18 means just after the bomb. Most believe the car bombs were supposed to go off after they were dead, and for example Cullen has one of them set to noon.
Also, those same notes say "Go to outside hill, wait" (can't stress this enough). The whole reason to say two minute late at 11:19, rather than one minute early, is because supposedly they were going to shoot from their cars at 11:17 and made up to go to the hill on the spot, disproven very simply by showing he had already considered that idea. Same for setting the car bombs a minute after, that too seems to disprove the shoot from the parking lot theory, which is the only reason to believe all of this.
The one's in Eric's planner seem to say wait by cars, in their defense, but it just shows how contradictory this is, and that seems to me obviously not the plan. Makes sense to stand away from the bombs not in front of the cafeteria. One also wonders whether Dylan meant the cafeteria as opposed to the car bombs when he said "When first bombs go off attack", or if he meant the first cafeteria bomb implying they werent set for the same time. Also they had reasons to be cagey about all of this. Wouldn't write more than you need to, and one could imagine not needing to write down the final version of the plan.
It makes perfect sense to start one minute early. That would explain why they couldn't abort. They want the west entrance and stairs clear before it started is a simple explanation. Also Patti was first if you believe Bree's statement, and most believe Bree's statement is the best one to trust. Bree watches Dylan outside because Patti came in the library, and describes the tossing of the pipe bomb that Richard saw, the shootings of Lance and Daniel, Dylan entering the cafeteria, etc.
It's also consistent with everything else, such as Patti telling them to "knock it off" not stop fleeing in terror that they are already murdering people. An authority figure came to tell them to knock it off, so they get started early, seems the most likely scenario. Dylan also says the massacre will last 15 minutes, which support the bombs being set 15 minutes apart, with the first at 11:20, the minute after they start, and the second at 11:35, the minute before they leave the library. Makes perfect sense to me. And my profile pic has the clock on the bomb and it just so happens to be set to the 35th minute on the 7. It could be a backup, but I don't think so. I think killing cops was a major part of the plan, and explains why they are shooting in a library that will explode anyway, as Eric told Bree. That also explains why cops thought it smart to stay outside.
It is very clear to me they could not have meant shooting at the bombs later. They say everybody in the library is going to die, they knew everybody was gone that they hadn't shot to death when shooting at the bombs. They were very aware they would be out of there. Hence Dylan says he's going to let Evan live. Reading the witness statements it is very obvious they meant while they were in the library. They told John to run for a reason. They said "Oh it didnt work" for a reason. They said everybody in the library was gonna die anyway for a reason. They said the reason!
I think they return to the library to kill themselves and light a molotov for the same reason. Basically Plan C ther of die in destroyed library, after committing to Plan B of shoot students in the library to draw in police and destroy it and die, after Plan A, to surround and enter the cafeteria to draw in police and destroy it and die, failed
Last edited by cakeman on Sun Nov 15, 2020 6:33 pm; edited 1 time in total
Onyx Top Contributor
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Subject: Re: The small question thread Part 2. Sat Jun 06, 2020 7:01 am
With all that is written, the clock in your picture is maybe the best indication that they expected one of the bombs to explode at 11:35. It was only when it failed to detonate that they tried to induce an explosion on their own.
Btw, if my memory serves me well, the diversion bombs were set at 11:14, so it would have been a little too early for the bombs in the cafeteria to be set at 11:15. 11:20 would make more sense.
How much can we actually be sure that the clocks could really only work at 5-min intervals?
cakeman
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Subject: Re: The small question thread Part 2. Sat Jun 06, 2020 11:04 pm
Onyx wrote:
With all that is written, the clock in your picture is maybe the best indication that they expected one of the bombs to explode at 11:35. It was only when it failed to detonate that they tried to induce an explosion on their own.
Btw, if my memory serves me well, the diversion bombs were set at 11:14, so it would have been a little too early for the bombs in the cafeteria to be set at 11:15. 11:20 would make more sense.
How much can we actually be sure that the clocks could really only work at 5-min intervals?
Yeah 11:14 is what they say. Perhaps it was 11:15 given the restriction to 5 min intervals, which I'm not certain of, that's just what some books say and seems weirdly contradictory and possible support for the above. That's not my main reason for thinking it though.
But they also say the diversion had motion detection which is a little weird. Isnt it one or the other? Unless it was one was timed and one was was trip bomb or whatever, so that responders were killed or injured. That seems like a true diversion. Again why two diversions if not this, etc. Maybe that also shows how the bombs were for police too.
23september
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Subject: Re: The small question thread Part 2. Sun Jul 19, 2020 6:35 am
Jen LaPlante mentions that both Eric and Dylan were in the bowling parking lot the morning of the shooting, and i've never seen anyone discuss this before.
Do we know why? Is it true? I thought they were all missing that morning, together with Morris.
khscarymovie4part4
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Subject: Re: The small question thread Part 2. Sun Sep 27, 2020 2:00 am
23september wrote:
Jen LaPlante mentions that both Eric and Dylan were in the bowling parking lot the morning of the shooting, and i've never seen anyone discuss this before.
Do we know why? Is it true? I thought they were all missing that morning, together with Morris.
I know this was asked a couple months ago but the most likely reason is faulty memory. Theres no other reason for the two to actually be their on the day of the attack. Most people are not taking in accurate details of the day as they have no reason too. I assume a lot of people's brain meshed a lot of diffrent scatterd details into one day. Chris Morris himself claims to have gone to bowling class the day of the attack even though the score sheet claims other wise.
I also have some questions mostly regarding dates.
When was the date Eric lost Brooks's riding privilege (if this is known) and also the date Eric threw a piece of ice at Brooks's car?
Do we know the date Brooks's found out about Eric's website and when was it?
Date of rebel mission against Nick Buamgart's house?
Date of Eric's freshman homecoming?
Thank you very much.
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dyonqqr
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Subject: Re: The small question thread Part 2. Wed Jun 30, 2021 5:40 pm
I know this is in all likelihood the wrong thread, but for lack of a better place to post it: So many people actively imitiated Eric during their own attacks (Pekka Eric Auvinen, Randy Stair, Alvaro Castillo, José Ángel Ramos, and the Medianeira shooter owned or wore natural selection shirts and Vladislav Roslyakov modelled his outfit off of Harris.) Has a single shooter since used a "wrath" shirt or shown a similar degree of idolization for Dylan?
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Killisaki Top Contributor
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Subject: Re: The small question thread Part 2. Wed Jun 30, 2021 7:40 pm
dyonqqr wrote:
I know this is in all likelihood the wrong thread, but for lack of a better place to post it: So many people actively imitiated Eric during their own attacks (Pekka Eric Auvinen, Randy Stair, Alvaro Castillo, José Ángel Ramos, and the Medianeira shooter owned or wore natural selection shirts and Vladislav Roslyakov modelled his outfit off of Harris.) Has a single shooter since used a "wrath" shirt or shown a similar degree of idolization for Dylan?
The closest one that I can think that show a similar degree of idolization for Dylan would be, I guess, Daniil Pul’kin (1 injured). I mean he wore a black tshirt with red letters saying "disappointment". I mean he showed also idolization to Vladislav Roslyakov, but I guess I thought at least that if Vlad was the Eric Harris of Russia, then maybe Daniil wanted to be the Dylan Klebold. Idk, I guess that is stupid and weird to think about. Also here is part of his Vk, with references with Dylan and Vlad, also I think the profile picture was modeled after Dylan, I guess:
_________________ "So-called civilized, well-brought up people will eat their own fellow kin, often their own friends, without being able to say why. Their subconscious will cause them to do so." -Oscar Kiss Maerth "Said he was a wolf, only the difference Was, a wolf’s skin was hairy on the outside, His on the inside;" - John Webster "I cannot allow the cheap fireworks of some amateur terrorist to trigger my beatiful apocalyptic display!" -Dr. Kabapu "But hey, you wouldn't have signed on if you weren't planning to becoming a martyr. So let's get to work." -Mannagaer lol
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nierenquetsche
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Subject: Re: The small question thread Part 2. Tue Jul 06, 2021 12:57 pm
I wonder how the relationship between Eric and Dylans parents was? Especially after the van break-in. Did they ever wanted Dylan to stay away from Eric? Was Eric still allowed to visit Dylan at home? From what i read so far, they mostly hung out at Erics place.
dyonqqr
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Subject: Re: The small question thread Part 2. Tue Jul 06, 2021 2:10 pm
nierenquetsche wrote:
I wonder how the relationship between Eric and Dylans parents was? Especially after the van break-in. Did they ever wanted Dylan to stay away from Eric? Was Eric still allowed to visit Dylan at home? From what i read so far, they mostly hung out at Erics place.
The Klebolds weren't the biggest fan of their friendship, but didn't actively discourage it. Sue said she would have made him break it off if she thought it was unhealthy, but she interpreted the van incident as just teenage stupidity. At the time of the shooting, if someone asked her who Dylan's best friend was, she would have answered someone other than Eric. She had positive relationships with all of Dylan's friends, but Eric was noticably more distant from her. I got this from her book A Mother's Reckoning. Hope that answers your question.
nierenquetsche
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Subject: Re: The small question thread Part 2. Wed Jul 07, 2021 5:02 am
dyonqqr wrote:
nierenquetsche wrote:
I wonder how the relationship between Eric and Dylans parents was? Especially after the van break-in. Did they ever wanted Dylan to stay away from Eric? Was Eric still allowed to visit Dylan at home? From what i read so far, they mostly hung out at Erics place.
The Klebolds weren't the biggest fan of their friendship, but didn't actively discourage it. Sue said she would have made him break it off if she thought it was unhealthy, but she interpreted the van incident as just teenage stupidity. At the time of the shooting, if someone asked her who Dylan's best friend was, she would have answered someone other than Eric. She had positive relationships with all of Dylan's friends, but Eric was noticably more distant from her. I got this from her book A Mother's Reckoning. Hope that answers your question.
Thanks for the reply! I havent read her book yet, only skipped through it.
EDIT: Just reading the Diversion Files on Klebold. On page 3 it says, he wasnt allowed to spend time with Eric as punishment. I dont know if they really stoped seeing each other (for some time), but i doubt it.
cakeman
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Subject: Re: The small question thread Part 2. Wed Jul 07, 2021 6:04 pm
dyonqqr wrote:
I know this is in all likelihood the wrong thread, but for lack of a better place to post it: So many people actively imitiated Eric during their own attacks (Pekka Eric Auvinen, Randy Stair, Alvaro Castillo, José Ángel Ramos, and the Medianeira shooter owned or wore natural selection shirts and Vladislav Roslyakov modelled his outfit off of Harris.) Has a single shooter since used a "wrath" shirt or shown a similar degree of idolization for Dylan?
Good point that it tends to be either both of them or Eric. Not a Wrath t shirt, but Dimitrios Pagourtzis "style" seemed a bit more Dylan, such as the Soviet Union pin alongside the Iron Cross, and the shaggy mop.
I suppose one could argue the ones who wore a trench coat imitated Dylan. Arguably his "uniform" in the popular consciousness rather than the Wrath shirt.
lognifiiskurk Top 10 Contributor
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Subject: Re: The small question thread Part 2. Wed Jul 07, 2021 7:08 pm
Is there any evidence that Dylan had a website like Eric did? I remember hearing that he did but could never find any evidence that it existed.
_________________ "One day I might just disappear and you will never find me. Nobody will ever find me"
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Sabratha
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Subject: Re: The small question thread Part 2. Wed Jul 14, 2021 10:06 am
lognifiiskurk wrote:
Is there any evidence that Dylan had a website like Eric did? I remember hearing that he did but could never find any evidence that it existed.
Not to my knowledge. Eric got in trouble for that website, but nobody ever found Dylan's website.
Which would maybe make sense if we assume that Brooks is saying the truth that it was Dylan who ratted-out Eric's website to Brooks. I guess maybe Dylan would anticipate that Brooks would cause a stir about the website, so Dylan per-emptively deleted his own website just to stay safe?
_________________ Life is like a tram - you need to know when to get off.
"Bullet Time" - a school shooting film from Poland
QuestionMark Top 10 Contributor
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Subject: Re: The small question thread Part 2. Tue Feb 21, 2023 11:38 pm
I saw in this article that John Stone, the JCSO Sheriff, faced a recall election in 2000 spearheaded by the Brown family. Is there anymore information on that circumstance?
_________________ "My guns are the only things that haven't stabbed me in the back." -Kip Kinkel
QuestionMark Top 10 Contributor
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Subject: Re: The small question thread Part 2. Sat Feb 25, 2023 6:02 pm
Does anyone have any surviving news articles on the backlash and discrimination faced by goths post-Columbine? It feels like something I should be able to find a wealth of information on but most of my searches have turned up very little, at least in terms of direct anecdotes.
_________________ "My guns are the only things that haven't stabbed me in the back." -Kip Kinkel
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Arkan
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Subject: Re: The small question thread Part 2. Sun Oct 08, 2023 2:31 pm
WHAT THE FUCK YOU POST ABOUT NOVAK YOU LITTLE FUCKING BITCH. LET'S SEE IF YOU KEEP SPAMMING YOUR BULLSHIT SOON ZIAMBER. HOW ABOUT YOU FIND SOMETHING ELSE TO DO AND TOUCH SOME FUCKING GRASS YOU FUCKING PIECE OF SHIT.
_________________ Discord is @kazantseva88 if anyone wants to add me there just send me a request and ill accept Я вернусь)
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WhiteFlesh
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Subject: Re: The small question thread Part 2. Sun Oct 29, 2023 8:43 pm
Does anyone have the timestamp for this moment in the Cafeteria surveillance tape? I've watched the tape but I've never seen him go by, and all screenshots I've seen don't show the time. Thx in advance..