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 3rd shooter?

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Rebbie556




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PostSubject: 3rd shooter?    3rd shooter?  Icon_minitimeTue Mar 19, 2019 10:42 am

The following eyewitnesses identified a 'Robert' or 'Robert Perry' as one of the attackers:

1. Cyrstal Archuleta (EP1-197): "...she did see one person throw a pipe bomb. .....She told me at the time she thought it was Robert Perry."

2. Seth Dubois (EP21-125): "...Seth told Katherine(Carlston) that Robert Perry was seen shooting a girl in the back while leaving the library."

3. Wade Allen Frank (EP1-91): "Mr. Frank told me that he thought origonally one of the individuals(shooting) was someone by the name of Robert..." "He stated that the person was tall, approximately 6'3" and kind of ackward(sic) and gangly."

4. Bryan Frye (EP25-69): "He stated that the person he had previously believed this shooter to be was Robert Perry. .....In a previous interview, after receiving his yearbook, he had told his father that he believed the shooter to be Robert Perry. He also stated that the gunman had bad acne."

5. Courtney Haulman (EP25-91): "There was three guys. The guy I remember most was the main guy. He's over 6' tall and has long curly dark-colored hair. He was wearing a trench coat. His name is Robert Perry."

6. Lacey Hohn (EP1-186): "...can you identify or descibe who was shooting? ....Ms. Hohn said that she does not believe it was Harris or Klebold. Ms. Hohn believes it was an individual named Robert."

7. Bijen Monty (EP1-110): "I asked her if she saw the source of the shooting. She told me she saw who she thought, at the time, was Robert Perry with a gun hanging around his neck. She said she never actually saw him shoot the weapon.

"She asked me if I had any information in regards to Robert Perry. I informed her I did not." (20063): "During interview with (Jennifer) Falbo, she stated a friend, Bijen Monte, told her on the night of April 20, 199, the she (Monte) was in the cafeteria by the pop machines when this event began at CHS--Monte told Falbo that she saw (Redacted) enter the cafeteria with a 'handful of things.' He then threw these things which caused loud explosios. Monte said (Redacted) was wearing a white t-shirt and unknown pants." "Bijen Monte stated she was outside the commons area eating lunch. Heard shooting and then saw (Redacted) with a gun standing over two downed male victims. Monte picked (Redacted) from a photo lineup."

8. Tessa Nelson (EP1-113): "I asked her if she saw the source of the shots. She said she saw a male, who she thought was Robert Perry, wearing boots, dark jeans with dark hair, walking down the stairs outside the cafeteria. She said the male suspect pulled a gun and started shooting."

9. Katelyn Sue Place (EP21-285): Kate said, "It was (Redacted). I'm almost positive of it. I remember looking him dead in the eye. He was in my debate class..... . ...Dylan kind of looked like Robert, but Dylan doesn't have the long face. Robert's teeth are messed up and he was smiling and I saw his teeth then. Kate said that she has since seen pictures of Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris, and she said, "It's not one of them."(Referring to the person she saw shooting out on the outside commons.)

"She remembers him shooting Ann Marie(Hochalter). .... Robert was just randomly shooting. ...Robert was still shooting. ....Kate said that Robert shot Ann Marie before he smiled at Kate. ....She looked and saw Jason(Autenrieth) trying to help Ann Marie, dragging her away from Robert, to the side."

10. Lacey Smith (4470): "On the diagram she depicts (Redacted) as walking in through the doors, past where she was sitting, and going in about as far as they north end of the school store. It was at that time she heard the windows breaking and then realized she was hearing shots.

"....she did not have any trouble indentifying PERRY when he walked past her. I asked SMITH how sure she was that the person she saw and spoke with was (Redacted). I asked, "90 percent sure? 50 percent sure?" Her response was "100 percent sure." I then showed SMITH a photo lineup which included a picture of Dylan KLEBOLD, and asked her if the person who walked past her was in the lineup. She stated he was NOT in the lineup. .....As (Redacted) passed her and was near the commons area of the cafeteria, she then explained that (Redacted) pulled a weapon out from under his trench coat and started firing into the cafeteria.

11. Brenton Hooker (16397): "....he turned around and observed an individual he thought was ROBERT PERRY(ex-student of Columbine High School) standing outside the door just to the north of the main entrance shooting a pistol in his direction...." ....HOOKER described the individual he thought was PERRY as 6'8" - 6'11" in height, very skinny, tight black pants, black trench coat..."

12. Tyler Chenoweth (1830): "A student named Jen Smull saw through the (science classroom)door during the incident and said that the tall suspect had curly hair and was the student who came to a Halloween party as a warlock. He thought of Robert Perry based on that description."


The following eyewitnesses identified a (Redacted) as being the shooter, with the description fitting Perry's:


13. Tiffany Lien (968): "Lien stated she believed gunman number one was (Redacted).... ...Lien stated that she was approximately twenty to twenty-five feet away from gunman number one and looked at him face to face for approximately 25 seconds, frozen in her tracks." Tall male had long black trench coat, black jeans, dark brown hair. His hair was kind of long and had curls. He was skinny and his shoulders kind of hunched over. ...She also stated that the gunman had bad acne.

14. Kristen Long (20245): "Long said suspect definitely had dark hair and a large nose, thought it might be (Redacted)."

15. Rusty Shyler (5464): "The individual was very tall. ...Shyler saw his face partially and thought based upon his dress and size that it may have been (Redacted). He was a hundred percent sure it was (Redacted). He described (Redacted) as being 6'6" to 6'7" tall and having lots of zits."

16. Chris Thierren (1207): Saw a tall shooter with acne, large nose, shoulder-length hair. "He stated that the picture he saw was of (Redacted) and he was 'pretty sure' he was the shooter he saw that morning at CHS."

17. Erin Walton (4139): "Erin Walton said she knew one of the shooters, and that he not one of (the) two Eric and Dylan. ...he was a senior named (Redacted). and he was very tall, had bad acne scars on his cheeks.... "

The following witnesses did not identify the shooter, but the descriptions fits Perry's:


18. Pat Caruso (2683 and EP17-13): "Thought the suspect looked like a trench coat student he has seen before who had bad acne, ....curly long dark brown hair, wearing black trenchcoat.... and a tie-dyed shirt, pink or yellow."

19. Justin Norman (3929): "Upon the hill we saw a tall guy with blond hair, acne, big nose and buck teeth.... the guy had a handgun and he shot one kid in the ankle and another who didn't move." (Note: Accoding to Norman in a later interview, this was Klebold, though the description is more indicative of Perry.)

20. Joanathan Ballard (1765): "One of the (trenchcoated)kids(who was walking the halls during the shooting-implied to be a shooter) was about 6'5" or 6'6",.... I later saw on channel 4 or 9 news, I'm almost positive, that same man or teen, on t.v., acting all worried." (Note: this can't be Harris or Klebold, as they died in the shooting.)

21. Nathan Anema (2359): "....Anema identified (Redacted) as possibly being the person he saw throw a pipe bomb during the shooting at Columbine High School on 4-20-99. ...Anema stated that he initially thought the person that he saw throwing the pipe bomb was (Redacted)."

22. Katie Beer (6636): ".... when the incident began at Columbine High School, she initially tried to get out of the school by going toward the main doors on the east side of the school by the administrative offices, however, she said she saw a third shooter next to these offices and that this third shooter shot out windows at that location. ...Katy Beer told him this third shooter may have been (Redacted)."

23. Jason Brehm (719): One of the shooters had a very round face, shorter than 5'11". Not Harris or Klebold.

24. Leanne Clark (1422): "...Clark told her that she saw who did the shooting in the cafeteria, and that Clark identified (Redacted) as a gunman."

25. John Cook (756): A couple of weeks after the massacre, "Cook said he believed he could ID both of the suspects if he saw photos of them again." Since everybody had seen the photos of H&K in the media, and knew they had died in the incident, Cook is clearly not talking about Eric or Dylan here.

26. Frank DeAngelis, School Principle (8018): "I also assisted the principle of Columbine, who was having hard time giving the pictures of possible suspects to the command post and was present when he looked at and identified one of the suspects he was named.(sic) The male suspect was in the custody of, I believe, Jefferson Co. Sheriff's investigators."

27. David Eagle (1878 ): "The guy with the gun had black hair looked like it was spiked shaved on the sides.(sic) It was also blond on top. 5'9", about 18 years old. "He has since seen pictures of Harris and Klebold on television. ...David said that the person he saw did not look like the people he's seen on television."

28. Ashley Egelund (22671): "Ashley was in north corridor when she observed (Redacted) and Eric Harris coming around the corner from the library.... She said Chris Morris was armed with a handgun while Harris was armed with a shotgun.(5248 ) ....both started shooting at Ashley.... Ashley did not know (Redacted) at first but she saw his picture in the yearbook and is positive it was (Redacted). "... No photo lineup per Investigator Battan."

29. Amy Evans (22205): "....Amy Evans said there was a third shooter and it was (Redacted)."

30. Joel Hatfield (19277): "Joel Hatfield interviewed 4-29-99. Saw one shooter with excellent description of dress, physical, guns and movement. Could ID in lineup if needed." Once again, this cannot be H or K, as everybody was aware that H&K were in no position to stand in a lineup!

31. Mark Hengel (5901): "Hengel identified Klebold and (Redacted) from the photograph in the attached 1A envelope.... Also attached is a 1A envelope is a diagram of Columbine High School indicating the diection of Hengel and the two individuals dressed in black." Apparently the interviewing officer didn't like what he was hearing, and so the interviewer ends up telling the eyewitness what he saw: "I then advised Mark Hengel that the skinny person he saw standing and shooting was Dylan Klebold and the person he saw standing over the duffel bag was Eric Harris."

32. AnneMarie Hochalter (18218): Gunshot victim outside the cafeteria. "Advised that Harris/Klebold did not shoot her. .... Has ID on shooters."

33. Leigh Kamens (1422): While in the 'green room' off of the science hall, she identified (Redacted) as one of the gunmen.

34. Tim Kastle (3416): "As far as I know the suspects are Dylan Klebold, Eric Harris, (Redacted) and I think there might have been two others."

35. Alicia Maes (3614): "Alicia stated that when she first observed the male in the black trench coat, she thought it was a person known to her as (Redacted)."

36. Lucas Milne: "Saw (Redacted) in commons at 11am in a black trenchcoat and knows (Redacted). States that Dan Goin and Brandon Little and Bijen Monte saw (Redacted) shooting at school. Milne picked out (Redacted) in photo lineup.

37. Leiha Murphy (3828): In the cafeteria, notices commotion outside north-west door. "I saw a guy I recognized as (Redacted). He was running... Stair had his blond hair down. It's past his shoulders. He's about 6', tall, skinny, he was wearing a long black trench coat.... I saw nothing in his hands. He was observed a short distance from whatever was going on at the door. My thought was that (Redacted) was involved if there was a fight." Stair named in the cafeteria map (see page 3830). Leiha also immediately picked him out of a photo lineup.

"I ask Leiha if she was certain that this individual was (Redacted). Leiha said "Oh yeah, I'm certain.... I saw his face full on. I remember seeing his face completely....(she said he stood in place for about 15 seconds)....I remember him graduating last year." She remembers him wearing 'makeup on his face and hand' and that because of that, he stood out from other students." (3836) Also, at least four ear- witnesses heard the suspects refer to one of their number as "Joe".(Encinas, 2943, Herivel, 1927, McKenna, 3525, and Salazar, EP21-224)

38. Mark Opfer (1064): "At the time, Opfer believed the taller person in the black tenchcoat who with(sic) the shooter was (Redacted)....." (25625) "CHS student Mark Opfer was interviewed on 4-27-99... In that interview Opfer stated that he believed (Redacted, wearing a trench coat) was standing next to a gunman and was involved in the shooting."

39. Josh Ortwein (1939): "...Josh Ortwein witnessed the shooting and he was telling everyone he saw (Redacted) shooting a gun."

40. Bree Pasquale (18018): Library eyewitness, was made to beg for her life. Says the gunman lived down the street from her and played the character "Morgan" in a school play. She knew him, and he knew her. Definitely not H or K! "...she believed the individual with the 'pipe bomb'(outside) was a former student of Columbine High School."(526)

41. Jessica Rusch (2143): "...she identified one of the gunmen at the Columbine High School as being an individual known as (Redacted)."

42. Cara Sander (EP25-203): Describes gunman as pudgy, overweight, very full face, thick bushy eyebrows. IDs him as (Redacted), who is heavy-set with a round face, short dark hair and dark eyebrows. A copy of the CHS yearbook page with Brian Sargent's photo is included in her interview. [John Ungerland(1701) says Brian Sargent has a round chubby face and is a big guy with bushy eyebrows. He saw him that morning at school; Sargent was wearing a short sleeve white button-up shirt-a polo type.]

43. Mindy Pollock (10009): Sees one gunman outside west entrance, holding a gun on the fence. ...Dressed in a "white dress-type shirt", short brown hair, with a "little bit of a gut". "POLLOCK stated she recognized the lower, [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] gunman as (Redacted)."(1095)

44. Trent Karnes (912): Says one suspect... had on a white dress shirt or a white sleeve shirt, he was holding a rifle on fence, shooting at people outside of cafeteria. [Note: Officially, both H&K were wearing T-shirts during the assault.]

45. Jen Smull(2182): In science hall, sees Klebold and an older suspect, 25-30, blond with short, spiky, buzz-cut hair.

46. Valeen Schnurr (18696): Gunshot victim in library. "Per Valeen's mother, Shari Schnurr, Valeen possibly identified her shooter as (Redacted)." (8798 ) "Valeen indicated she keeps seeing the face of (Redacted)"

47. Jennifer Tindall (1226): "....insisted that neither suspect she saw was Eric Harris or Dylan Klebold. ...Tindall picked out (Redacted) photograph as possibly being the male in the black trench coat."

48. Adam Thompson (21039): "....he had seen a gunman shooting inside the school. Does not think it is the same as gunmen in the media."

49. John Vandemark (2216): In the science hall, sees older shooter with dark hair, spiky with blond tips.

50. Erin Walton (2243): In th science hall, sees suspect with short blond hair-"like he was going bald"-older, in his 30s.

51. Emily Wyant (641): A week after 4-20, says to the interviewing officer "...she would recognize them again if she saw them again."

52. Chris Wisher (9832): "....he recognized one of the shooters--the other shooter was the kid wearing black that was arrested and placed in cuffs and put inside a black police car. He said that he is 100% positive that he was the male that shot at him." (EP6-265) "Thought he recognized Chris Morris as being one of the shooters.... ...on the west side of the cafeteria."

53. Aaron Welsh (610): Can ID both suspects(on 4-22).

54. Terry Lawson (10020): ID other than Harris and Klebold.

55. Monica Schuster (19470): "Schuster saw gunman but did not believe it was Harris and Klebold."

56. Lisa Forgen (3005): She sees 2 shooters, and tells IOs that she could identify them if she had photos. Interview given days after 4-20; the implication is that they were not Harris and Klebold. (2+2=4)

57. Arthur Curtis (19444): Saw two shooters, can ID them. (interview given on 4-28-99, the implication once again is that they were not Harris and Klebold)

58. Kacey Ruegsegger (128): "Ruegsegger did not recognize the pictures of Harris and Klebold she has seen in the media as the gunmen in the library."

59. Sean Graves (ACSO 633): "...saw guy with coat and gun standing by (Redacted)--saw his face and he wasn't one of the suspects."

60. (DRMN 5-14-99): "...people have reported that they saw others carry stuff into the building"
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PostSubject: Re: 3rd shooter?    3rd shooter?  Icon_minitimeWed Mar 20, 2019 12:06 am

Rebbie556 wrote:
39. Josh Ortwein (1939): "...Josh Ortwein witnessed the shooting and he was telling everyone he saw (Redacted) shooting a gun."

40. Bree Pasquale (18018): Library eyewitness, was made to beg for her life. Says the gunman lived down the street from her and played the character "Morgan" in a school play. She knew him, and he knew her. Definitely not H or K! "...she believed the individual with the 'pipe bomb'(outside) was a former student of Columbine High School."(526)

I know recently I saw a post (maybe reddit?) where someone was putting together a list to help refute and/or verify some of these 3rd shooter observations. If I can find it before I have to leave for work, I'll post the link.
When I had the time I used to like going through each of these and seeing if there was info to find to show these snippets are incomplete and don't represent what was truly stated or seen. Unfortunately, real life intervenes and I just can't do that anymore but I wanted to take these two examples and show that they are inaccurate.

Josh Ortwein
pg. 1939 Laura Hornbaker heard from others that Josh Ortwein saw the shooting and told people he saw [redacted] shooting a gun. She provides no description of the gunman so it's impossible to tell if she claimed he saw Perry or someone else.
Now looking for Josh's statement- it is actually under Christopher Ortwein (his middle name is Joshua) on pg. 5076.
The interview was conducted on August 16, 1999. Josh was out of town (presumably away at college but it doesn't state this), so the police interviewed his mother, Janice. According to her, Josh was in choir when the shooting started and hid in the choir office with dozens of others. He never left the classroom, never saw any shooting or any shooters. He heard a lot of gun fire.

Bree Pasquale
Rebbie556 wrote:
(18018): Library eyewitness, was made to beg for her life. Says the gunman lived down the street from her and played the character "Morgan" in a school play. She knew him, and he knew her. Definitely not H or K! "...she believed the individual with the 'pipe bomb'(outside) was a former student of Columbine High School."(526)
The page referenced in the first part of this example, pg. 18018 is not from Bree. It's a lead sheet from a woman named Rita Lensex who reported that her sister, Marge Hendry, saw Bree Pasquale on CNN and that Bree said "a shooter named [redacted] pointed his gun at her but recognized her and didn't shoot. [redacted] lives down the street from her."
This lead sheet also includes a telephone contact with Marge Hendry who said "she saw Bree Pasquale on CNN and the shooter was named [redacted]."
Again, there is no information here that suggests that Robert Perry is being referred to.

Taking this a step further, there is also a fuller statement from Marge Hendry on pg. 6598.
In this statement, Hendry says that Bree told CNN that she "begged the white male named Morgan not to shoot her. Hendry said that she thought Jason or maybe it was Morgan had lived down the street from Bree. Hendry suggested that the shooter, either Jason or Dylan, had either a stage name of Morgan or had played the role of Morgan in a stage production."
This statement is all over the place with names- Jason, Morgan, Dylan. Moreover, if we were to assume whoever she is referring to was Perry, then looking at the addresses of Bree and Robert, we can see that she lived in Aurora and he lived in Littleton and door- to-door it would take 35 minutes.

Now, evaluating Bree's statement-

pg. 528 Bree did not know who Eric Harris was at the time of the attack. She based her identification on photos from the news. Bree's description of Eric was very detailed and she described that right after he shot Cassie that blood began to flow from his nose and he made a comment to Dylan that "I hit myself in the face." He said this as he was sitting in front of her with a gun in her face. Other people confirmed that it was Eric Harris (Evan Todd, Josh Lapp, off the top of my head but I know there are others) that hit himself in the nose and had blood around his nose/mouth area.
The gunman who confronted Bree Pasquale in the library was Eric Harris and Bree never indicated that it was someone else.  

With regard to the pipe bomb-
pg. 522 Bree clearly states that based upon seeing Dylan Klebold's picture in the news, she positively identified Klebold as the person she saw outside with the pipe bomb. She did not know who Dylan was at the time of the attack, this is why she made the comment to Isaiah on pg. 526 about the person with the bomb being a former student.
pg. 526 During the attack, Shoels asked Bree what was going on. She told him there was someone outside with a pipe bomb, she told Isaiah she did not recognize that person and that she believed it was a former student of CHS.
Bree's description of Dylan is very detailed and matches what we know of Dylan at that time. Bree identified Dylan as the person with the pipe bomb after seeing pictures of him. Her statement about it being a former student was made during the incident to Isaiah Shoels because she did not recognize the person she saw in that moment, because she did not know Dylan.
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PostSubject: Re: 3rd shooter?    3rd shooter?  Icon_minitimeWed Mar 20, 2019 1:15 am

I don't buy into a third shooter at all. I think I have said this before but everyone that day was scared, shocked, and panicking. I think scared people or even people in general make very poor witnesses. I don't think many knew what was going on that day.

Add to it that Eric was pretty generic looking and Dylan looking like Perry and people I think got confused. Esp after the way Eric took his coat off. At that point then, people saw 2 in coats and 1 in a white shirt... never occurred to them that the white shirt was the same as the coat guy.

Still more witnesses say there was a shooter on the roof. We all know the guy on the roof was a HVAC man repairing the building. But still some push that it could have been an accomplice.

Add to it that some kids didn't even know Eric or Dylan until they saw them on TV. Then their minds came flooding back to who it could have been. So perhaps some gave names just bc they had no idea who Eric or Dylan were

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PostSubject: Re: 3rd shooter?    3rd shooter?  Icon_minitimeWed Mar 20, 2019 1:53 am

Lizpuff wrote:
I don't buy into a third shooter at all.  I think I have said this before but everyone that day was scared, shocked, and panicking. . .

Don't forget stoned. It was 420.

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PostSubject: Re: 3rd shooter?    3rd shooter?  Icon_minitimeWed Mar 20, 2019 8:48 pm

What about Chris Morris? That dude lied being at the bowling class he was not on the list. What's his reason to lie?
He must've helped somehow
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PostSubject: Re: 3rd shooter?    3rd shooter?  Icon_minitimeWed Mar 20, 2019 11:56 pm

Rebbie556 wrote:
What about Chris Morris? That dude lied being at the bowling class  he was not on the list. What's his reason to lie?
He must've helped somehow

So lying makes him automatically involved? How many students lied that day due to the fact they were out smoking weed or skipping school? Chris was a friend of theirs yes. Did he know something about the guns or plans? Debatable. But he was interrogated up and down for a very long time and no one could pin anything on him. I very much doubt he was involved. But you can grasp at straws if you like. Shall we debate about Zach or Nate next? I mean supposedly both of them helped to build the "bombs"

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PostSubject: Re: 3rd shooter?    3rd shooter?  Icon_minitimeThu Mar 21, 2019 12:12 am

Rebbie556 wrote:
What about Chris Morris? That dude lied being at the bowling class  he was not on the list. What's his reason to lie?
He must've helped somehow

He was late to class, that's why he was marked absent.
Carrie Sabey was interviewed on 5/17/99 (pg. 2150) and told police that her bowling team bowled against Chris Morris and Nate Dykeman on April 20th. Harris and Klebold were on Morris and Dykeman's team and she said Eric and Dylan were not there. She said no one on her team asked Chris or Nate why E & D weren't there. She also said, "She thought Morris might have shown as absent due to possibly arriving after the teacher took attendance, but she could not specifically recall him being late."
Also on Carrie's team were Kristi Held (pg. 1922), Eddie Olsen (pg. 2086), and Mike Paavilainen
Held and Olsen confirm that they bowled E & D's team on April 20th and that the only two members of their team present on that day were Chris Morris and Nate Dykeman. I've been unable to find a police statement for Paavilainen; I could only find those by his mom and sisters.

Also pg. 5307 has bowling stats for that week. Note under L/S for both Harris and Klebold, there is a 0. I believe this means that they were absent on 4/20. Other kids on that page that have a 0 (Seth Houy (pg. 403), Kevin Hofstra (pg. 6629), Matt Hardy (pg. 6481), Chad Laughlin (pg. 954)), all say they missed their bowling class that day. I could not find the police statement for Jim Drobrick and neither of Dustin Gorton's statements mention what he did that morning, only what he did at the time of the attack.
Both Morris and Dykeman have scores in the column.

Morris didn't lie. He went to bowling class that morning.
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