Cafeteria CCTV and wanderings

I was watching the CCTV footage of the cafeteria and noticed that there are several students in the cafeteria hiding at the same time Eric and Dylan were wandering around and trying to detonate the bombs - I was under the assumption that all the students had evacuated by this point. Do we know who these students are? Do we know if Eric and Dylan noticed they were there?

I see several students running out after one of the bombs partially detonates. It doesn't seem that there were many students remaining.

Yeah, we know them. One recently did a reddit AMA. Can't get inside their heads to say they were noticed but probably, they weren't blind, and they were saying things like "Today is the day we die" which could be interpreted as knowing somebody would hear it.

Also, as I understand, they didn't try to detonate "the bombs" in the cafeteria, but just the one. The one in the orange-ish duffel bag. The one in the blue duffel bag was left alone.

And it's a misnomer to say the bomb partially detonated. The timing mechanism and so forth did not work. Dylan just threw a molotov cocktail at it, and the gas can attached to the bomb lit on fire. But the bomb itself, the propane tank and such, remained unaffected.

Others will point out that heating up with a fire is how BLEVEs go off, so the timing mechanism was going to do the same thing Dylan's molotov did - but I don't think that's true. At the least, they didn't think it was true.  For one, it makes the timing mechanisms pointless, as it means several minutes of heating up before it goes off, and the whole point of the timers is to make the bombs go off at a specific time, obviously. Also that they ignored the sprinklers entirely shows to me they expected it to simply go off not to need to heat up. Also the contrast seen on the CCTV between shooting at the bomb and seemingly expecting it to go off as you stood there and lighting it on fire and booking it.

Though it does seem to me booking it and a few other things suggest they knew a fire could make it go off, or that there could be a fire. If Dylan checked on the bombs from outside, hard to imagine what he expected to see. If the options were just it worked or it didn't, it should be easy to tell from outside. If the options are it worked, or it's on fire for a while, or it didn't, then it makes some sense to inspect it. So, I think it's quite possible lighting the gas can could be used as a backup, but wasn't all the timers would do.

cakeman wrote:

Yeah, we know them. One recently did a reddit AMA. Can't get inside their heads to say they were noticed but probably, they weren't blind, and they were saying things like "Today is the day we die" which could be interpreted as knowing somebody would hear it.

Also, as I understand, they didn't try to detonate "the bombs" in the cafeteria, but just the one. The one in the orange-ish duffel bag. The one in the blue duffel bag was left alone.

And it's a misnomer to say the bomb partially detonated. The timing mechanism and so forth did not work. Dylan just threw a molotov cocktail at it, and the gas can attached to the bomb lit on fire. But the bomb itself, the propane tank and such, remained unaffected.

Gotcha, I somehow missed the AMA. I'll have to look for that. I'm curious if they didn't shoot at these students if they did notice them because they still believed the bombs might be detonated? I guess at this point they knew the bombs didn't go off as planned though.

I wonder why they only tried to detonate the one - but you're right, they do focus on just one area in that footage.

As for my misnomer, I won't pretend that I know anything about bombs or timers or mechanisms, but I suppose that makes sense. I just saw an explosion and assumed the bomb exploded but only enough to start a fire. Either way, I wonder why there were still students in the cafeteria, I just assumed that everyone had left in that mass exodus.

melanishka wrote:

cakeman wrote:

Yeah, we know them. One recently did a reddit AMA. Can't get inside their heads to say they were noticed but probably, they weren't blind, and they were saying things like "Today is the day we die" which could be interpreted as knowing somebody would hear it.

Also, as I understand, they didn't try to detonate "the bombs" in the cafeteria, but just the one. The one in the orange-ish duffel bag. The one in the blue duffel bag was left alone.

And it's a misnomer to say the bomb partially detonated. The timing mechanism and so forth did not work. Dylan just threw a molotov cocktail at it, and the gas can attached to the bomb lit on fire. But the bomb itself, the propane tank and such, remained unaffected.

Gotcha, I somehow missed the AMA. I'll have to look for that. I'm curious if they didn't shoot at these students if they did notice them because they still believed the bombs might be detonated? I guess at this point they knew the bombs didn't go off as planned though.

I wonder why they only tried to detonate the one - but you're right, they do focus on just one area in that footage.

As for my misnomer, I won't pretend that I know anything about bombs or timers or mechanisms, but I suppose that makes sense. I just saw an explosion and assumed the bomb exploded but only enough to start a fire. Either way, I wonder why there were still students in the cafeteria, I just assumed that everyone had left in that mass exodus.

They say 'fight or flight' is  really 'fight, flight or freeze', and I supposed they froze. And yeah, nothing exploded, it just burnt off the fuel of the gallon gas tank tied to the propane tank - none of the propane in the tank was burned off, as I understand. Not your fault, it's been said since the Jeffco/CNN CD in like 2000 that the bomb 'partially detonated,' but I'm pretty sure that's not what that means. That same thing said it took out the windows, which was done by a pipe bomb they tossed into the cafeteria as I understand, and showed the wrong bomb in the picture (the blue duffel bag, rather than the orange one, which was obv burnt unlike the blue one).

I'm pretty confident the bombs were set for different times, and the whole "the bombs' failed at 11:17" is just false.  I've said too much on it. They kept saying a bomb was supposed to go off while they were in the library. My avatar is the clock for the one they shot at and managed to cause a fire with, the orange duffel bag, apparently set for 11:35 (9:35 in the pic but nothing happens at 9:35 obv), which also just happens to be when they stop shooting and leave to try and make it explode.  So, I chalk up them not messing with the other bomb as further corroboration.

Though even with that explanation, one might expect them to go after both, but what they said in the library shows they thought one was enough to take out the library.  Regardless, it provides some explanation for why that bomb and not the other was on their minds, and no other explanation even tries to do so.  That would also explain why no point in shooting anybody after 11:35. That's when the vision has gone tits up, not before. Hence, for example, they begin shooting outside, and not in the cafeteria full of victims; as if they had not moved on to simply shoot everyone like most will tell you, but instead are thinking the bombs are about to do some work. Think things would have gone very differently if they thought both bombs had failed already.

So, yes, I think it's at that point they knew the bombs didn't go off as planned, so no point in shooting those students as the plan has failed and they are focused on recovering it. I would depart from most in saying that's only been the case for a few minutes, not from before they started shooting. Also, I think a lot of their actions then suggest they are focused on police rather than students. If I am correct, "why shoot the students in the library anyway" becomes a real question, and I think the only good answer is to bait cops in so they die in the explosion too. I think the cops may have even realized this. For instance, they had the library phone call, and later the library witnesses, and perhaps that's why they stayed outside.  I don't buy "hostage protocol"; I think it was bomb protocol. With hostages, you negotiate. With bombs, you hang back and wait for them to go off.

So, that means when that bomb failed, now they have baited police in with one less weapon to stop them, and were presumably wary of police. But they also would have liked a firefight with cops, to kill cops and to have cops kill them instead of having to do it themselves. But, like the whole nation after, they would have thought it's curious the cops had stayed outside, and may have realized they were waiting for the bomb to go off. I think the "wandering the halls" after the fire starts was probably looking for police, and I think they were hoping the fire would make the bomb go off and make cops rush in finally. Eric's gesture on the CCTV, when they come back and the sprinklers have put off the bombs, just after the infamous shot of Dylan with his gun drawn, is a wave. Some have said "aw he's waving goodbye", but he wrote that was their hand signal for "cops sighted". So, at least at that point, cops were on their mind.

So in sum yeah the plan has failed and they want cops they are tired of killing students, imo.

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I guess the students would have heard the shooting outside to begin with and worried about leaving the cafeteria. I wonder if they could hear the shooting above them at all, I need to reread the witness statements in the 11k.

Right, I remember reading in another thread about your theory of them expecting a bomb to go off at 11:35 and not shooting anyone after that point. It makes sense that they stopped the library shootings after it failed to detonate and kill everyone as they had been boasting. Why would the clock say 9:35 though? I don't doubt that it wasn't set for that time in reality, but that's odd.

Luring the law enforcement with the shootings is an interesting theory, definitely plausible. I'm sure you're right about them wandering the halls.

Did the law enforcement know that there were bombs in the cafeteria at this point? Besides the pipe bombs and crickets? I can't remember.

melanishka wrote:

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I guess the students would have heard the shooting outside to begin with and worried about leaving the cafeteria. I wonder if they could hear the shooting above them at all, I need to reread the witness statements in the 11k.

Right, I remember reading in another thread about your theory of them expecting a bomb to go off at 11:35 and not shooting anyone after that point. It makes sense that they stopped the library shootings after it failed to detonate and kill everyone as they had been boasting. Why would the clock say 9:35 though? I don't doubt that it wasn't set for that time in reality, but that's odd.

Luring the law enforcement with the shootings is an interesting theory, definitely plausible. I'm sure you're right about them wandering the halls.

Did the law enforcement know that there were bombs in the cafeteria at this point? Besides the pipe bombs and crickets? I can't remember.

They don't find the cafeteria bombs and make it public until 2 days later. That's at least part of the reason if not the whole reason for the popular conception of the massacre plot as simply a shooting  with no bombs targeting jocks and/or bullies, Christians, and blacks. The day after, all the media and thus the people knew about this was a shooting while in the library taunting those groups. Curiously, when the bombs were first made public, all the news and magazines said the bombs were in the "kitchen", rather than among the tables.  

However, police did have the library phone call and later the library witnesses. Also remember they had the diversion bombs. That JeffCo/CNN CD very curiously says the diversions had motion detection, and that this was relayed to the school and provided them valuable information. So, they knew at least the shooters felt they had a bomb which could take down the library, and they feared if they made a wrong move, it could set it off.  

Also, no way both had motion detection, as then they'd just be hoping somebody ran by at the right time. What makes the most sense is that the first diversion was on a timer, and the second had motion detection to go off in the responders faces, which adds support to the idea they did something similar with the cafeteria bombs. Whether the police had realized what type of bomb, who knows. I believe Jeffco said the fire truck they used for cover when gathering Rachel and Richard by the west entrance was also going to be used to breech the west entrance, with the fire truck and its water taking the brunt of any possible explosion, but it got stuck in the mud and they gave up on the idea. And I believe that was about a pipe bomb. Guess they didn't know those were just glorified fire works at that point. So, I think it could have been either of propane or pipe bombs on their mind, if not just any bomb and they didn't care which type.

Yeah, I'm not certain about luring law enforcement into the library, but I think with everything taken together it's the most plausible if not the only explanation for why they would shoot people if a bomb is going to take them out anyway. Assuming they had a reason and it was not just extra carnage or whatever. They are also telling people to stand up, and seemed to have hoped they'd finally get to kill people fleeing. But it can also be said they hoped to murder police at some point, and that if that bomb had gone off with them in there, then that was their last chance. I suspect the fire in the storage closet and firing into empty classroom and such, their taking a bit of time between leaving the library and entering the cafeteria, may have been covering their back. You think two teenagers going down those stairs in that scenario might worry about cops rushing from behind.

The 9:35 is curious at first glance. Literally for years I went "this doesn't make sense. The scenario where the bombs fail before they start shooting makes no sense. That they change plans from shooting from the parking lot makes no sense, and that they said the library was going to experience a bomb directly contradicts it," and saw that picture, and thought it was curious but could not connect it to that because of the hour hand. When another poster focused on the minute hand, and you realize 11:35 is when they stop shooting, and that other explanations for that fact are ludicrous hero worship and psychologizing like that they 'snapped out of it', then everything falls into place.  One, the clocks could have just been 2 hours slow. Two, supposedly you can set the clocks to whatever time you like to start, and you have to pick a time after that and before the hour is up for it to go off. Not sure how that works for the one clock set to noon there is a picture of, but regardless, those who know more about the bombs have said this. In other words, I guess it is possible they could have set the clock to 9:15, at 11, and that 9:35 meant 11:20 like I think the first bomb was set for, but more likely, for whatever reason, maybe just a rush, at 11, they got it set to 9, and then picked 35 minutes later.

You have a pretty impressive study here about the bombs. I honestly hadn't put much thought into them, as they didn't work, but it's interesting to consider the story they tell in between the obvious stuff. It's honestly great that they never did detonate (not only because of lives saved) because there is a lot of information to be gained from it. Thank you for all the information.