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Columbine High School Massacre Discussion Forum
A place to discuss the Columbine High School Massacre along with other school shootings and crimes. Anyone interested in researching, learning, discussing and debating with us, please come join our community!
Posts : 68 Contribution Points : 37723 Forum Reputation : 50 Join date : 2020-03-21 Location : Italy
Subject: Re: Yes I wrote the article for FHM... ask away... Thu Jul 23, 2020 8:22 pm
Piersh wrote:
From there it’s a short drive up Pierce Street until a menacing, low rise, sandstone building looms into view. Columbine High School has few windows and looks like a prison without a fence (later Brooks’ girlfriend tells us that it was in fact designed by an architect who used to build prisons).es in the head.
I know that somehow this was written for the shock value, but so I'm not the only one who has always thought that Columbine School has something uncomfortable, so big, massive and strange...but maybe I'm influenced by what happened in there. For sure this school has a bizarre structure (no offense for who has loved to study and just be in it), and if really was build from a prisons architect...oh, well.
Last edited by My_mondays on Thu Jul 23, 2020 9:15 pm; edited 2 times in total
milennialrebelette
Posts : 248 Contribution Points : 58640 Forum Reputation : 725 Join date : 2018-10-28 Age : 32 Location : Littleton, CO
Subject: Re: Yes I wrote the article for FHM... ask away... Thu Jul 23, 2020 8:29 pm
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] it's a pretty normal school for the Denver Front Range area suburbs built in that time. Theres some JeffCo, Littleton, Cherry Creek and Aurora schools from the 70s to 80s with more recent updates from the 90s til today I went to Colimbine myself and Notmandy Elementary but before and in between I was back in Hawai'i with my dad where no schools look like that, they all are older mostly with multiple buildings that have outside hallways and areas, nothing like any of the schools in Colorado, whether downtown DPS like GW or East, the new or old suburbs on the Front Range or the mountain schools. Colorado schools despite varying geography all seem to have a similar look with a few exceptions in my experience.
Adzybear
Posts : 169 Contribution Points : 60086 Forum Reputation : 100 Join date : 2018-06-30 Age : 43 Location : UK
Subject: Re: Yes I wrote the article for FHM... ask away... Thu Jul 23, 2020 9:33 pm
Hi milennialrebelette. I hope you are doing well. I am from the UK so our school life was a bit different, although has some similar traits. Was bullying an issue at Columbine in the years that you attended? And was the shooting ever really talked about/well known amongst students during your time there?
Thanks, Adam UK
_________________ My Grandma once said..... If I fart & sneeze at exactly the same time, I will do a BACK FLIP! Is this true? I only tried it once but shit myself. R.I.P Grandma x
Adzybear
Posts : 169 Contribution Points : 60086 Forum Reputation : 100 Join date : 2018-06-30 Age : 43 Location : UK
Subject: Re: Yes I wrote the article for FHM... ask away... Fri Jul 24, 2020 4:28 pm
Also, this Piersh or whatever. Full of shit. I feel embarrassed I even even asked questions
_________________ My Grandma once said..... If I fart & sneeze at exactly the same time, I will do a BACK FLIP! Is this true? I only tried it once but shit myself. R.I.P Grandma x
milennialrebelette
Posts : 248 Contribution Points : 58640 Forum Reputation : 725 Join date : 2018-10-28 Age : 32 Location : Littleton, CO
Subject: Re: Yes I wrote the article for FHM... ask away... Fri Jul 24, 2020 5:30 pm
Hi [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] my family was involved with the shooting when it happened. I was in 3rd grade at Normandy while my sister was a junior and my brother was a freshman at Columbine (classes of 2000 and 2002 respectively.) My mom's house was across the greenbelt from the Harrises first rental house in Littleton then even closer, caddy corner to the one they bought. My mom was friends with Kathy Harris and Rcahel Scott had been one of my sister's best friends since elementary school, my sister was even mentioned by name in some of the published journals and has multiple journals she and Rachel shared over the years. She had been invited to eat lunch with her and Richard that day but had plans to pick up prom pictures and was one of the last people to see Rachel. My sister was also a varsity poms captain and hung out with the jocks, she was popular. My brother was in Confirmation at our Catholic church Cabrini with Danny Mauser, my sister and Val Schnurr were LifeTeen youth group leaders together. Danny and Kelly Flemming's funerals were at our Church and I was there. Rachel used to be one of my babysitters.
Anyway by the time I was in high school no one talked about the shooting Instead Columbine's community has become very tight knit with a lot more school pride than other schools nearby. There was regular high school bullying it wasn't awful definitely not anything close to what happened in the 90s. My sister said the worst bullying with finished after Rocky and his crew graduated in 98. Mr. D is even more, or was until he retired a few years ago, even more involved with students of all groups. The teachers and counselors are tight knit.
It's still suburban Littleton which has problems on it's own for being a conservative evangelical place so...
My_mondays
Posts : 68 Contribution Points : 37723 Forum Reputation : 50 Join date : 2020-03-21 Location : Italy
Subject: Re: Yes I wrote the article for FHM... ask away... Fri Jul 24, 2020 6:54 pm
milennialrebelette wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] it's a pretty normal school for the Denver Front Range area suburbs built in that time. Theres some JeffCo, Littleton, Cherry Creek and Aurora schools from the 70s to 80s with more recent updates from the 90s til today I went to Colimbine myself and Notmandy Elementary but before and in between I was back in Hawai'i with my dad where no schools look like that, they all are older mostly with multiple buildings that have outside hallways and areas, nothing like any of the schools in Colorado, whether downtown DPS like GW or East, the new or old suburbs on the Front Range or the mountain schools. Colorado schools despite varying geography all seem to have a similar look with a few exceptions in my experience.
I see. For me its structure is strange, here we don't have schools built like that, off course, and from what you say, it's a typical schools structure in Colorado. Plus, what happened there, as I said, contribute to this sinister sensation about it, for me...it's inevitable. I'm glad to read that you got on well at Columbine, it's just a school like any others.
Piersh
Posts : 18 Contribution Points : 34650 Forum Reputation : 0 Join date : 2020-07-18
Subject: Re: Yes I wrote the article for FHM... ask away... Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:00 pm
Adzy: What a charming reponse when I have tried to respond honestly to your question. Have a think about what you are doing and whether it is right and fair. Wil Adzy in ten years think: 'That was good work on my behalf!' 'I remain very happy with my response to this day!' 'What a lovely, reasonable bloke I am and incidentally, I continue to be one of the good humans right up to the current day.' Think on child boy and think hard, very hard...
Agent47
Posts : 6 Contribution Points : 38375 Forum Reputation : 0 Join date : 2020-02-08
Subject: Re: Yes I wrote the article for FHM... ask away... Sat Jul 25, 2020 3:05 pm
What a crock of shit. I'm from England and Piers is well known over here, so why you think you can honestly get away with fooling people that you're him I've no idea. Your posts are littered with spelling mistakes, something a former editor of a national newspaper would make sure to check before posting, the style and manner in which you write is nothing like Piers, and if Piers had much spare time he'd most likely spend it with family or celebrity friends, not spouting off on a little known about Columbine forum. But hey if you want to pretend, carry on. Coming up next week our next celebrity guest writer on here is Brad Pitt!
Piersh
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Subject: Re: Yes I wrote the article for FHM... ask away... Sat Jul 25, 2020 5:41 pm
Er...Agent 47. Checkout the photo I posted of me earlier in this thread. I am Piers Hernu not Piers Morgan. I edited a nationaI lads magazine called Front not a a national newspaper called The Daily Mirror. I may have made spelling mistakes but i've been writing here late at night after a few beers. I have plenty of spare time and very few celebrity friends and I've been to Columbine!
milennialrebelette
Posts : 248 Contribution Points : 58640 Forum Reputation : 725 Join date : 2018-10-28 Age : 32 Location : Littleton, CO
Subject: Re: Yes I wrote the article for FHM... ask away... Sat Jul 25, 2020 6:13 pm
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] I'm not sure what argument is going on between you and some of the other posters. However I would just say if you only interviewed the Browns then you only got a tiny fraction of the Columbine story with more lies than truths. So I wouldn't brag about your Columbine knowledge if you didn't speak to anyone else other than Judy, Randy and Brooks. Seems like a waste to come all the way here and only see them. :shrugs:
Piersh
Posts : 18 Contribution Points : 34650 Forum Reputation : 0 Join date : 2020-07-18
Subject: Re: Yes I wrote the article for FHM... ask away... Sat Jul 25, 2020 6:24 pm
milennialrebelette: I have already countered your accusations. I didn't only interview the Browns, Columbine wasn't open when I visited so De Angelis wasn't busy, I haven't bragged about my Columbine knowledge. I immersed myself in the story with an open mind - yours is clearly closed and somewhat spiteful. The very best of luck to you!
Adzybear
Posts : 169 Contribution Points : 60086 Forum Reputation : 100 Join date : 2018-06-30 Age : 43 Location : UK
Subject: Re: Yes I wrote the article for FHM... ask away... Sat Jul 25, 2020 7:02 pm
Piersh quoted Basement Tape dialogue in the FHM article, yet can't remember if this was said from 2 teenagers talking at the camera or not. Everyone has seen the shouting into the camera footage (HMFH)
If you cannot remember what you saw, what was said etc....it's a bit late now then, isn't it?
milennialrebelette, thank you for your reply. It must have been pretty surreal being there? Or was this whole shit show something you found interesting after you left school?
_________________ My Grandma once said..... If I fart & sneeze at exactly the same time, I will do a BACK FLIP! Is this true? I only tried it once but shit myself. R.I.P Grandma x
milennialrebelette
Posts : 248 Contribution Points : 58640 Forum Reputation : 725 Join date : 2018-10-28 Age : 32 Location : Littleton, CO
Subject: Re: Yes I wrote the article for FHM... ask away... Sat Jul 25, 2020 7:38 pm
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] I've never been anything but open minded and accepting of everyones experiences and stories. I do have beef with the Browns but from the way my sister was harassed by Brooks their entire childhood and adolescence, the horrific racist rumors Judy spread about my because my dad is non white and the horrible way she treated me and my mother as she was six and dying and I was a teenager trying to work full time, graduate high school and care for my dying mother, it's very legitimate and I have no qualms admitting my feelings against them for the sake of being open. Before the shooting the Browns were not well liked all due to their own behavior in the community and after the shooting it only got worse. They have no one but themselves to blame for this.
I still get the idea you feel Mr. D owed you an interview and you claimed since the school was closed he wasn't busy. He works year round non stop for the community and if you had interviewed anyone outside the Browns you would know that.
You were in Littleton. Current or past students, parents, teachers, employers, the district itself, religious leaders in the community, you had a wealth of potential information at your disposal but instead you talked to one family who has been proven to spread lies and rumours and assumed Mr. D should drop everything to give you a personal interview and when he didn't you left with a chip on your shoulder without bothering to talk to anyone else in the community.
You were bragging, your last post said "I've been to Columbine!" as though that legitimizes you.
I'm just saying for someone so open minded, you interviewed only the most close minded family that plays up their involvement to the point of lies. You clearly picked up their bias against Mr. D and because he was too busy for you, you left, without bothering to interview anyone else while you had a chance.
I'd stop saying you know aabout Columbine and just straight out say your article was about the Brown family, and they are what you know about, not the greater Columbine community.
dreadpirateroberts2020
Posts : 49 Contribution Points : 40655 Forum Reputation : 125 Join date : 2020-05-13
Subject: Re: Yes I wrote the article for FHM... ask away... Sat Jul 25, 2020 8:06 pm
"Mr. D went out of his way to let me stay at Columbine and graduate on time instead of skipping a year or transferring to McLain JeffCos alternative school. When my mom was sick him and his wife came by our house with food and prayers. They were at her funeral shortly after my graduation too."
That is nice of Mr.DeAngelis.
However, two things can be true at once.
For example, while DeAngelis may have been nice to you, he also fostered the corrosive culture at CHS that, in part, motivated the actions of Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold.
When you advocate for state football titles, while ignoring the severe rash of bullying, that is a captain asleep at the wheel.
One good deed doesn't absolve DeAngelis from his sins.
_________________ State of the Road Address
"When have I lied? When have I cheated or stolen from anyone here? When have I treated anyone unfairly? When have I lead you astray?
Why do you turn on me now when I have poured my heart and soul into this community and project?
...Do you think this site built itself? Do you think it runs itself?...Do you have any idea the risk the people operating this site are taking?
Do you have any clue what we've been through to get here today?
Whether you like it or not, I am the captain of this ship, if you don’t like the rules of the game, or you don’t trust your captain, you can get off the boat.”
-Dread Pirate Roberts
milennialrebelette
Posts : 248 Contribution Points : 58640 Forum Reputation : 725 Join date : 2018-10-28 Age : 32 Location : Littleton, CO
Subject: Re: Yes I wrote the article for FHM... ask away... Sat Jul 25, 2020 9:22 pm
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] It's far more than one dead. My senior year my mom was sick and dying and he and his family brought good, took my mom to appointments, came to her funeral... While I was at high school after the shooting bullying wasnt tolerated. Student Senate qas huge on A Day Without Hate. CHS was a zero tolerance zone. Of course there was still minor "bullying" mostly just cliques and some gossip, stuff that will always be occurring when you get large groups of teenagers together with varying interests, backgrounds, etc
My sister who was varsity pom captain and graduated in 2000 says the bullying that was talked about before the shooting, really did dissipate after Rocky and his cronies left in '98. Mr. D didnt turn a blind eye to it, it wa one of the coaches who facilitated the worst of it. People went out of their way in front of his face to me nice and it almost all happened behind his back.
His biggest family pre shooting was being naive and always seeing the best in everyone. Some groups weren't visible so he didnt see what was going on there. It's not that he ignored it he was just not aware of it. He tried, he went to sports games yes, but also plays and other big non sports events. He assumed if people weren't coming to him with problems they weren't happening or weren't severe and students and teachers were taking care of them.
Post shooting he made a point to know every single student, which is saying a lot with just under 2k kids. He was more assertive when it came to knowing what was going on, made a point to push it a little to know what was going on behind his back and with kids on the periphery.
He is far from perfect, he's human. But his mistakes pre Columbine were not actively malicious, just on the naive side assuming the best out of situations when he should have looked a little deeper.
After the shooting he was incredibly hard on himself for not seeing through this and he has made a huge point to make up for that error though, and in the 15 years between the shooting and his retirement, sticking to his promise to see the kindergartners in 1999 through graduation, he really stepped it up, took a deep look at himself and made it a point to proa actively create a better school environment.
Like I said Columbine post shooting was far from perfect, it's still in a conservative, religious, suburb. I was there during the recession so the wealth that was another driving factor of the bullying was not nearly as bad as it was in the 90s.
The point is if you subscribe to the "Bullying caused the whole thing, Mr. D watched jocks reign supreme and bully poor "inmocent" defenseless outsiders knowingly" you're following a lone that's as outdated and disproved as "Metal, Manson and violent video games caused it" or "Taking God and prayer out of schools caused it".
It's far more complicated and nuanced, with many factors, some about the school environment but just as many and more about the problems Eric and Dylan had on their own, not the fault of anyone else. We wouldn't have a huge forum like this with endless discussion if it were that simple of an answer.
I just want to share the experience not just of myself but a huge number of Columbine students over the 34 years Mr. D was there. We are people who have experienced this first hand and I want to extend that to the researchers here who know there's not a simple answer.
♡
Screamingophelia Other Crimes Moderator & Top 10 Contributor
Posts : 6417 Contribution Points : 192899 Forum Reputation : 1317 Join date : 2017-08-25 Age : 42
Subject: Re: Yes I wrote the article for FHM... ask away... Sat Jul 25, 2020 9:59 pm
Piersh wrote:
Ligeya and Adzybear: I cannot honestly say - as part of my research I watched what Randy showed me and what was available on the internet and I cannot distinguish betewen the two. I remember a video outside in what looked like an industrial estate - I think there was also footage involving a car being driven around by one of them fast and aggressively. Dylan was wearing a baseball cap backwards and a black leather trenchcoat, walking towards the camera gesticulating, snarling and screaming his message direct to the camera until his contorted face filled the lens. Then it cut out - maybe ten seconds max. But ... I have just googled 'more rage' and that show's exactly what I remember. I was not aware of basement tapes or other tapes I was just aware of various pieces of footage that I needed to watch to write the article. I can ask Randy if you like - been in touch with him and Brooks the last couple of days and we are all still friendly?
That sounds like Eric's video "highway patrol" and "hitmen for hire".....
_________________ "And you know, you know, you know, this can be beautiful, you say you're numb inside, but I can't agree. So the world's unfair, keep it locked out there. In here it's beautiful."
Screamingophelia Other Crimes Moderator & Top 10 Contributor
Posts : 6417 Contribution Points : 192899 Forum Reputation : 1317 Join date : 2017-08-25 Age : 42
Subject: Re: Yes I wrote the article for FHM... ask away... Sat Jul 25, 2020 10:18 pm
milennialrebelette wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] It's far more than one dead. My senior year my mom was sick and dying and he and his family brought good, took my mom to appointments, came to her funeral... While I was at high school after the shooting bullying wasnt tolerated. Student Senate qas huge on A Day Without Hate. CHS was a zero tolerance zone. Of course there was still minor "bullying" mostly just cliques and some gossip, stuff that will always be occurring when you get large groups of teenagers together with varying interests, backgrounds, etc
My sister who was varsity pom captain and graduated in 2000 says the bullying that was talked about before the shooting, really did dissipate after Rocky and his cronies left in '98. Mr. D didnt turn a blind eye to it, it wa one of the coaches who facilitated the worst of it. People went out of their way in front of his face to me nice and it almost all happened behind his back.
His biggest family pre shooting was being naive and always seeing the best in everyone. Some groups weren't visible so he didnt see what was going on there. It's not that he ignored it he was just not aware of it. He tried, he went to sports games yes, but also plays and other big non sports events. He assumed if people weren't coming to him with problems they weren't happening or weren't severe and students and teachers were taking care of them.
Post shooting he made a point to know every single student, which is saying a lot with just under 2k kids. He was more assertive when it came to knowing what was going on, made a point to push it a little to know what was going on behind his back and with kids on the periphery.
He is far from perfect, he's human. But his mistakes pre Columbine were not actively malicious, just on the naive side assuming the best out of situations when he should have looked a little deeper.
After the shooting he was incredibly hard on himself for not seeing through this and he has made a huge point to make up for that error though, and in the 15 years between the shooting and his retirement, sticking to his promise to see the kindergartners in 1999 through graduation, he really stepped it up, took a deep look at himself and made it a point to proa actively create a better school environment.
Like I said Columbine post shooting was far from perfect, it's still in a conservative, religious, suburb. I was there during the recession so the wealth that was another driving factor of the bullying was not nearly as bad as it was in the 90s.
The point is if you subscribe to the "Bullying caused the whole thing, Mr. D watched jocks reign supreme and bully poor "inmocent" defenseless outsiders knowingly" you're following a lone that's as outdated and disproved as "Metal, Manson and violent video games caused it" or "Taking God and prayer out of schools caused it".
It's far more complicated and nuanced, with many factors, some about the school environment but just as many and more about the problems Eric and Dylan had on their own, not the fault of anyone else. We wouldn't have a huge forum like this with endless discussion if it were that simple of an answer.
I just want to share the experience not just of myself but a huge number of Columbine students over the 34 years Mr. D was there. We are people who have experienced this first hand and I want to extend that to the researchers here who know there's not a simple answer.
♡
I remember when I met Mr. D briefly after a screening of "We Are Columbine" and I asked about the culture after the shooting, how people felt when they came back and if some felt like they were still not connected and he said yes and that made him sad, he went out of his way to go and speak to people at the skate park etc.. I also asked about media coverage and how the panel felt media played a role in tragedies after Columbine.
I really appreciate you talking here on the forum, I haven't seem Yumeko here for a while, but she is a graduate and a library survivor and she's shared a lot AND has a compelling youtube series about the shooting and aftermath.
When I went to Columbine for a craft fair, I felt like it was a warm community, when I went to the memorial for the anniversary I got a lot of hugs, and my friend who graduated in 1999 and is a survivor said the area has changed a lot since she was in school.
It is really interesting the perspectives and I am sure someone who went to Columbine has a very different experience.
I have also met Sue twice in my life and she's a very open person, but some people look at her like a careless and cold mother...
No matter what, I always listen to the people that were there (be it during the shooting and in the community before and after). Even if perspectives are different. I lived in Littleton for 2 years, and met a lot of people, and I still don't know a ton... I didn't live through it. I wasn't there for reporters jumping out of bushes (they did that to my friend and they were angry when she refused to give an interview) etc...
_________________ "And you know, you know, you know, this can be beautiful, you say you're numb inside, but I can't agree. So the world's unfair, keep it locked out there. In here it's beautiful."
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Screamingophelia Other Crimes Moderator & Top 10 Contributor
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Subject: Re: Yes I wrote the article for FHM... ask away... Sat Jul 25, 2020 10:20 pm
i think when it comes to bullying in general and in this situation, bullying will affect people differently and what someones definition of bullying may vary...
Some people look at bullying as only physical and others feel like being ostracized is a form of bullying... some people can laugh off a mean joke and others take it to heart, and almost make out a checklist of all the bad things that are happening to them.. another reason to be angry, proof that they are as low as they feel (that was me for a long time)
_________________ "And you know, you know, you know, this can be beautiful, you say you're numb inside, but I can't agree. So the world's unfair, keep it locked out there. In here it's beautiful."
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milennialrebelette
Posts : 248 Contribution Points : 58640 Forum Reputation : 725 Join date : 2018-10-28 Age : 32 Location : Littleton, CO
Subject: Re: Yes I wrote the article for FHM... ask away... Sun Jul 26, 2020 12:15 am
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] That's because you're the best :-) And you're right, living through it was a totally different experience than anything else. All the people hurt, not physically, so many fell off the cart so to speak, like my sister, a lot of stuff that wasnt covered by the crazy journalists everywhere. I have so many strong memories from then from the open casket funerals for Rachel, Kelly and Daniel Mauser, to my room looking right at the Harrises house with all the lights and cops and reporters for nights on end, to the mucky cold snow at Clement Park the next couple of days clinging onto my mom or my sister, to reporters everywherebbnin the neighborhood and the park once they talked to my sister and found out how close she was with Rachel and our neighborhood connection to the Harrises they hounded her and our house for a short bit, to my sister crawling up in bed with me sometimes because she could never sleep... there's so much.
The people that I know and care about and have seen how our lives have changed after the shooting makes me protective. For people who weren't there I want to share my truth or what a lot of people beyond me think and feel that wasnt in the newspapers because certain people monopolized the spotlight and pushed their own often not factual points, which are what researchers come across today.
I just want to share with people other perspectives of our community, the day of the shooting and our lives before and after.
♡
Last edited by milennialrebelette on Sun Jul 26, 2020 5:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Ligeya
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Subject: Re: Yes I wrote the article for FHM... ask away... Sun Jul 26, 2020 12:52 am
It's so surprising for me to hear the criticism of Columbine as a place that only rewarded athleticism, sport, and where only jockes were championed, and individualism, originality, freedom of thought were not rewarded. I don't know how it was in America in the nineties, but if you look at the world around - Yes, people care about sport MUCH more than they care about literature, or science, or art. It's not something that is unique or unusual about Columbine. Famous athletes are getting away with unbelievable shit - rape or violence or financial crimes or domestic violence, because people care about sport (for some reasons). And i am not talking about America, it's all over the world. It doesn't seem like Columbine was a very healthy place to be in for troubled teens. And maybe school principal could've done something to make it better. It does seem like he is a kind man, a caring man, but it doesn't neccessary mean he was good at his job. But still, to blame him for what happened? Really? It's impossible to blame one person for a very unstable environment with 2000 students and dozens of teachers. How about some personal responsibility? Of teachers who ignored bullying in front of them. Of students who bullied others. For example, Dan Lab who is mentioned in this article - isn't he the guy who hit Eric in the face?
milennialrebelette
Posts : 248 Contribution Points : 58640 Forum Reputation : 725 Join date : 2018-10-28 Age : 32 Location : Littleton, CO
Subject: Re: Yes I wrote the article for FHM... ask away... Sun Jul 26, 2020 1:49 am
You also have to understand in the 90s, especially for teachers who had been around since the 70s/80s bullying was seen as very different than it is today. The more mild stuff was seen asa normal part of being a teenager for the most part. I don't agree with that of course but I'm younger and I did my social work masters within the last 5-6 years, so different time.
I'd say Mr. D is good at his job. JeffCo has schools specifically for teens who are struggling and troubled, they did back then and still do. Unfortunately with that many kids people slip through the cracks.
My brother was more like that quit wrestling after freshman year and was more into computers and stuff. Very quiet. But my sister, who was popular and active in school life as the varsity poms captain, hee alcoholism started after the shooting so her senior year she was dri ming heavily before classes even but she kept it so quiet people didnt notice. Everyone struggled after the shooting so anything off was explained by that. Its hard.
Teachers now are much more trained to see those kids before they slip through the cracks, though it still happens. Mr. D could have stayed stuck I'm his ways and say nothing was wrong here Columbine is amazing and not changing but he didn't. He chose to stand up and say he was far from perfect and he wanted to learn and grow to make Columbine a better place and he did.
Piersh
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Subject: Re: Yes I wrote the article for FHM... ask away... Sun Jul 26, 2020 5:38 pm
This is much better - no abuse or wild accusations just a civilised exchange of reasoned opinions from either side of the arguement. Nobody is necessarily right or wrong as they come at things from different experiences and angles. Sensible discussion and even arguement is surely the best way to cast light on a dark, divisive and difficult subject.
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My_mondays
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Subject: Re: Yes I wrote the article for FHM... ask away... Sun Jul 26, 2020 9:57 pm
Everytime I read about Columbine's toxic culture and that it could have contributed to cause the massacre, I ask myself why Eric and/or Dylan didn't just change school, but maybe this thought is too simplistic. Here we have the same class for all the school years, with the same classmates and almost all of the same teachers; every high school have a specific field of study, like scientific or artistic. When I was in high school, a friend of mine from another class sadly was pretty bullied from her teachers, and after the first two years, she simply changed school and so did some other kids I knew: this school have the reputation of hellish place. I didn't have big problems with my class (just a little in the beginning), and plus, my classmates and my teachers helped me a lot during a very bad period, when I almost failed the year due to several health and familiar issues; I will never thank all of them enough for their frienship and kindness. I can relate to the story at Columbine of Millennialrebelette: everything is different from person to person.
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milennialrebelette
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Subject: Re: Yes I wrote the article for FHM... ask away... Wed Aug 05, 2020 9:54 pm
My_mondays wrote:
Piersh wrote:
From there it’s a short drive up Pierce Street until a menacing, low rise, sandstone building looms into view. Columbine High School has few windows and looks like a prison without a fence (later Brooks’ girlfriend tells us that it was in fact designed by an architect who used to build prisons).es in the head.
I know that somehow this was written for the shock value, but so I'm not the only one who has always thought that Columbine School has something uncomfortable, so big, massive and strange...but maybe I'm influenced by what happened in there. For sure this school has a bizarre structure (no offense for who has loved to study and just be in it), and if really was build from a prisons architect...oh, well.
I can't believe I forgot this before, but I remember the prison architect rumors specifically, but nit just at Columbine. I knew people at a handful of different schools in JeffCo, Littleton, Aurora, Centennial, all southern suburbs of Denver, and it seems at the schools built in the 70s they all seem to have a minor rumor about the prison style. However at Columbine it wasn't mentioned very much.
The school where I heard the most about this was a school some of my older cousins and some of my coworkers at the Red Robin I switched to in Aurora from Littleton right before my mom died and after we sold the house and moved into a small apartment across from the newish giant CU Health Sciences now University Hospital complex on Colfax, anyway they all went to a school named Smoky Hill High School in Aurora, Colorado.
It opened the same year as Columbine and has also been remodeled since like Columbine. It looks way more prison like than Columbine except Columbine's ugly grey color on the original part is worse than the red bricks Smoky has. Anyway apparently inside Smoky has small classroom blocks, centered around a department office. Before the first remodel that was the entire school. There weren't any windows wider than about 6-8" and the part that faces the main road, has a big barbed wire area at the school itself and then next door is a district bus depot with more barbed wire. Inside the walls are white washed brick and plain grey concrete apparently .
My cousin says they have a great auto program thus the barb wire. It is a far more diverse school than Columbine. But my cousin says he was told because of the violent domestic terrorism that occurred during the early 70s like from the Weather Underground, the Sianese (sp?) Liberation Army who kidnapped Pattie Hearst, etc. communities were afraid and schools built during this time were built by firms who also built Colorado prisons. I don't kniw if any of that is true, or if it's just some dramatic license to explain the crappy institutional look of architecture from the very late 60s into the 70s, resulting in prisonesque giant, flat, plain, brick/concrete buildings with very few if any windows added to the teenage feeling of school being a prison.
I could see people thinking that about Columbine before the '95 remodel, and while I haven't been inside my cousin and coworkers old school Smoky Hill, I have driven by back when I was in high school and I thought it was a prison until I saw the school sign. This is actually they put actual windows in, so facing the main road is a big two story brick building, only a small part of the building had the "windows" that were super narrow tiny slits that couldn't be opened and all looked covered up with blinds or something, almost half the building is just two stories of brick without any of the depressing creepy fake windows at all. Plus there's a huge area covered by barbed wire fence in the middle of the building with torn up black fabric covering a lot of it, though you can see dumpsters and other junk, then there's a big district bus depot right beside surroubded by barb wire with no grass or trees at all only gravel. The sidewalk was all falling apart and stuff.
It made me feel about about Columbine's design for sure! I've always wondered if the rumor of 70s built schools being designed by prison architects or purposely designed like prisons themselves (Ove heard both) is just a Colorado thing. Never heard it in Utah or Hawai'i. I also never was able to find out whether there was any truth to it or not. Maybe its just meant to be a rumor at these schools for as long as they're still standing and running lol.
cakeman
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Subject: Re: Yes I wrote the article for FHM... ask away... Thu Aug 06, 2020 7:03 am
My_mondays wrote:
Everytime I read about Columbine's toxic culture and that it could have contributed to cause the massacre, I ask myself why Eric and/or Dylan didn't just change school, but maybe this thought is too simplistic.
It seems to me a lot of the idea that they hated every single day at Columbine, is the incorrect quote during the library massacre, "This is for the last four years", which, if we believe Bree (most do on everything else), it was "This is for last year" - and they planned the massacre for a year, not four years, so that makes sense.
Of course Dylan also says "You've been giving us shit for years" on the Basement Tapes, but they're trying to come up with reasons to be angry, others have noted Dylan is playing it up for Eric, and he talks about daycare and stuff even before Columbine High. So, I think it's literally just that first, false quote that makes people go 'boo hoo they hated that toxic environment every day was hell.' With that interpretation, I think your question is reasonable. The same goes for "oh my god they just had to wait a few weeks to graduate and they were away from that awful place".
However, I suspect (and of course cannot prove) that they wanted to attack something first, then later settled on the school. Eric talks a lot about wishing he could take down all of Denver and says they need to decide what's going to be 'ground zero' for their pipe bombs, etc. It's certainly possible to choose the school because e. g. ease of access, the number of victims, and the symbolism, rather than serious grievances.
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Ligeya
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Subject: Re: Yes I wrote the article for FHM... ask away... Thu Aug 06, 2020 8:39 am
cakeman wrote:
My_mondays wrote:
Everytime I read about Columbine's toxic culture and that it could have contributed to cause the massacre, I ask myself why Eric and/or Dylan didn't just change school, but maybe this thought is too simplistic.
It seems to me a lot of the idea that they hated every single day at Columbine, is the incorrect quote during the library massacre, "This is for the last four years", which, if we believe Bree (most do on everything else), it was "This is for last year" - and they planned the massacre for a year, not four years, so that makes sense.
Of course Dylan also says "You've been giving us shit for years" on the Basement Tapes, but they're trying to come up with reasons to be angry, others have noted Dylan is playing it up for Eric, and he talks about daycare and stuff even before Columbine High. So, I think it's literally just that first, false quote that makes people go 'boo hoo they hated that toxic environment every day was hell.' With that interpretation, I think your question is reasonable. The same goes for "oh my god they just had to wait a few weeks to graduate and they were away from that awful place".
However, I suspect (and of course cannot prove) that they wanted to attack something first, then later settled on the school. Eric talks a lot about wishing he could take down all of Denver and says they need to decide what's going to be 'ground zero' for their pipe bombs, etc. It's certainly possible to choose the school because e. g. ease of access, the number of victims, and the symbolism, rather than serious grievances.
Sue Klebold and possibly Judy Brown are the only ones who said Dylan was playing it up for Eric, and they are obviously biased.
thelmar
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Subject: Re: Yes I wrote the article for FHM... ask away... Thu Aug 06, 2020 9:32 am
cakeman wrote:
Of course Dylan also says "You've been giving us shit for years" on the Basement Tapes, but they're trying to come up with reasons to be angry, others have noted Dylan is playing it up for Eric, and he talks about daycare and stuff even before Columbine High. So, I think it's literally just that first, false quote that makes people go 'boo hoo they hated that toxic environment every day was hell.' With that interpretation, I think your question is reasonable. The same goes for "oh my god they just had to wait a few weeks to graduate and they were away from that awful place".
Not that I think something happened to them every single day all throughout high school, but there are indicators that they were unhappy with the school for more than just their junior year. The windshield incident occurred in early 1997 (February, I think but too lazy to check) and at that time Brooks told his parents/ school officials about the "missions" that Eric, Dylan, and Zach were doing. Since Eric mentions Brooks telling on him, the missions occurred both before and after the windshield incident, which would have been their sophomore year. In his Mission Logs, Eric says they target anyone who "pisses us off" and "we have many enemies in our school." He also talks about one mission being "an attack on people who shot Vodka's bike." He doesn't outright say they were other Columbine students, I would assume, at least, that they were kids of their own age. This time frame coincides with reports that they both started acting differently, dressing differently around the second year of high school. This in and of itself doesn't indicate they were unhappy with high school, but coupled with the "enemies" statement suggests something may have been going on at that time. From Dylan's journal in March of 1997, he writes of "the asshole in Gym class, how he worries me." Whether or not his talk of being an outcast and people "conspiring against" him had anything to do with bullying, only Dylan knows.
They were in school for 3 yrs with Rocky and his group of friends, whom most believe did the majority of the abuse to the Columbine student body. We don't have direct evidence that Eric or Dylan were targeted by any of them or when, but I suspect that those few who were interviewed, who had graduated the year before and whose names were redacted, that admitted to bullying Eric, specifically, in gym were part of Rocky's group. I know at least one was a football player. I don't think it's too far of a leap, given these things to suspect (though we can't prove) that their unhappiness with Columbine began before junior year.
cakeman
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Subject: Re: Yes I wrote the article for FHM... ask away... Thu Aug 06, 2020 9:43 am
Ligeya wrote:
cakeman wrote:
My_mondays wrote:
Everytime I read about Columbine's toxic culture and that it could have contributed to cause the massacre, I ask myself why Eric and/or Dylan didn't just change school, but maybe this thought is too simplistic.
It seems to me a lot of the idea that they hated every single day at Columbine, is the incorrect quote during the library massacre, "This is for the last four years", which, if we believe Bree (most do on everything else), it was "This is for last year" - and they planned the massacre for a year, not four years, so that makes sense.
Of course Dylan also says "You've been giving us shit for years" on the Basement Tapes, but they're trying to come up with reasons to be angry, others have noted Dylan is playing it up for Eric, and he talks about daycare and stuff even before Columbine High. So, I think it's literally just that first, false quote that makes people go 'boo hoo they hated that toxic environment every day was hell.' With that interpretation, I think your question is reasonable. The same goes for "oh my god they just had to wait a few weeks to graduate and they were away from that awful place".
However, I suspect (and of course cannot prove) that they wanted to attack something first, then later settled on the school. Eric talks a lot about wishing he could take down all of Denver and says they need to decide what's going to be 'ground zero' for their pipe bombs, etc. It's certainly possible to choose the school because e. g. ease of access, the number of victims, and the symbolism, rather than serious grievances.
Sue Klebold and possibly Judy Brown are the only ones who said Dylan was playing it up for Eric, and they are obviously biased.
Perhaps, but it's another thing to consider. I haven't seen the tapes obviously. Though I can't much trust the transcript by that measure either (in fact there are multiple versions). Can also say they knew him and I didn't. But there is Eric's yearbook, for one instance where it seems like Dylan doing things that appeal to Eric for several pages. Could still be an open question whether it's to recruit him for his own NBK suicide murder fantasy, or to follow the vengeful leader, or whether those are the wrong options.
cakeman
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Subject: Re: Yes I wrote the article for FHM... ask away... Thu Aug 06, 2020 9:50 am
thelmar wrote:
cakeman wrote:
Of course Dylan also says "You've been giving us shit for years" on the Basement Tapes, but they're trying to come up with reasons to be angry, others have noted Dylan is playing it up for Eric, and he talks about daycare and stuff even before Columbine High. So, I think it's literally just that first, false quote that makes people go 'boo hoo they hated that toxic environment every day was hell.' With that interpretation, I think your question is reasonable. The same goes for "oh my god they just had to wait a few weeks to graduate and they were away from that awful place".
Not that I think something happened to them every single day all throughout high school, but there are indicators that they were unhappy with the school for more than just their junior year. The windshield incident occurred in early 1997 (February, I think but too lazy to check) and at that time Brooks told his parents/ school officials about the "missions" that Eric, Dylan, and Zach were doing. Since Eric mentions Brooks telling on him, the missions occurred both before and after the windshield incident, which would have been their sophomore year. In his Mission Logs, Eric says they target anyone who "pisses us off" and "we have many enemies in our school." He also talks about one mission being "an attack on people who shot Vodka's bike." He doesn't outright say they were other Columbine students, I would assume, at least, that they were kids of their own age. This time frame coincides with reports that they both started acting differently, dressing differently around the second year of high school. This in and of itself doesn't indicate they were unhappy with high school, but coupled with the "enemies" statement suggests something may have been going on at that time. From Dylan's journal in March of 1997, he writes of "the asshole in Gym class, how he worries me." Whether or not his talk of being an outcast and people "conspiring against" him had anything to do with bullying, only Dylan knows.
They were in school for 3 yrs with Rocky and his group of friends, whom most believe did the majority of the abuse to the Columbine student body. We don't have direct evidence that Eric or Dylan were targeted by any of them or when, but I suspect that those few who were interviewed, who had graduated the year before and whose names were redacted, that admitted to bullying Eric, specifically, in gym were part of Rocky's group. I know at least one was a football player. I don't think it's too far of a leap, given these things to suspect (though we can't prove) that their unhappiness with Columbine began before junior year.
I'm aware of the rebel missions and their journals. Problems with other students and hatred with the high school as an institution seem to me quite separate things. The claim was not there were no assholes in gym class. In fact those who I meant to parody usually include the administration and the rest, so this reply surprised me at first. One should also note: graduated the year before, as in were seniors when they were juniors, as in when they started planning the massacre, for when they would be seniors.
thelmar
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Subject: Re: Yes I wrote the article for FHM... ask away... Thu Aug 06, 2020 2:27 pm
cakeman wrote:
I'm aware of the rebel missions and their journals. Problems with other students and hatred with the high school as an institution seem to me quite separate things.
How so? From what we know it seems that both hated the school because of what they perceived as favoritism of treatment for certain members of the student body; and those certain members were usually the jocks that gave everyone (not just Eric and Dylan) the most trouble. It doesn't seem that you could separate the two as perception of one grew out of perception of the other. You might argue that Eric also railed against society putting kids in school to make good little workers for the future, so everyone thinks and acts alike, but this wasn't his sole means of hatred toward the "institution" and there's no evidence Dylan cared about this philosophy at all.
cakeman wrote:
One should also note: graduated the year before, as in were seniors when they were juniors, as in when they started planning the massacre, for when they would be seniors.
Yes, the redacted statements I mentioned were part of the class of 1998, likely interviewed because they were on the Class of '98 Should've Died list. My point was not these particular students and what abuse they threw at Eric or Dylan during gym the year before. But the fact that these students, who had admitted to bullying, and their group of friends who were also bullies, were present in Columbine for 3 out of the 4 years that Eric and Dylan were present. Their being assholes to other students probably didn't start when they became Class of 98 seniors, they were probably assholes through the majority of high school.
The fact that they were the main group of bullies for the majority of time Harris and Klebold were at Columbine and the fact that Eric and Dylan, from the written evidence we have, were expressing hatred of the school and its students at least as far back as their sophomore year suggests that their perceptions of the school and students were shaped further back than just their junior year ("this last year") of high school. And was possibly shaped by this particular group of bullies. If they were just referring to being bullied their junior year, as you suggest, and since they began plotting NBK some time between February and April of 1998, then that means that they would have decided based upon only roughly 6- 8 months (minus weekends and school breaks it's roughly 150 days actually in school) that they were going to die and take hundreds of kids with them. Not saying this couldn't happen because I do think they had some mental health issues going on, but it seems extreme to me even for Eric and Dylan and all the harm they caused.
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cakeman
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Subject: Re: Yes I wrote the article for FHM... ask away... Thu Aug 06, 2020 4:33 pm
thelmar wrote:
cakeman wrote:
I'm aware of the rebel missions and their journals. Problems with other students and hatred with the high school as an institution seem to me quite separate things.
How so? From what we know it seems that both hated the school because of what they perceived as favoritism of treatment for certain members of the student body; and those certain members were usually the jocks that gave everyone (not just Eric and Dylan) the most trouble. It doesn't seem that you could separate the two as perception of one grew out of perception of the other. You might argue that Eric also railed against society putting kids in school to make good little workers for the future, so everyone thinks and acts alike, but this wasn't his sole means of hatred toward the "institution" and there's no evidence Dylan cared about this philosophy at all.
I'm not sure that isn't a just so story. We don't know what they perceived as favoritism of treatment. Favoritism of fate to the jocks in Dylan's journal perhaps. Of course one could hate the school because of the people there; but hating some people there is not the same thing as hating the school. My claim was pretty modest. Just don't think Dylan hating one guy is gym class is evidence for hating the whole school.
And yes, there is Eric talking about how school is to conform to a bell schedule and make it so you don't sit around the room or whatever, but that is presumably after they decided to attack the school. Also there is Eric specifically saying not to blame the administration.
Quote :
cakeman wrote:
One should also note: graduated the year before, as in were seniors when they were juniors, as in when they started planning the massacre, for when they would be seniors.
Yes, the redacted statements I mentioned were part of the class of 1998, likely interviewed because they were on the Class of '98 Should've Died list. My point was not these particular students and what abuse they threw at Eric or Dylan during gym the year before. But the fact that these students, who had admitted to bullying, and their group of friends who were also bullies, were present in Columbine for 3 out of the 4 years that Eric and Dylan were present. Their being assholes to other students probably didn't start when they became Class of 98 seniors, they were probably assholes through the majority of high school.
The fact that they were the main group of bullies for the majority of time Harris and Klebold were at Columbine and the fact that Eric and Dylan, from the written evidence we have, were expressing hatred of the school and its students at least as far back as their sophomore year suggests that their perceptions of the school and students were shaped further back than just their junior year ("this last year") of high school. And was possibly shaped by this particular group of bullies. If they were just referring to being bullied their junior year, as you suggest, and since they began plotting NBK some time between February and April of 1998, then that means that they would have decided based upon only roughly 6- 8 months (minus weekends and school breaks it's roughly 150 days actually in school) that they were going to die and take hundreds of kids with them. Not saying this couldn't happen because I do think they had some mental health issues going on, but it seems extreme to me even for Eric and Dylan and all the harm they caused.
It seems on any account they decided that after the van arrest on January 30 and by the end of April 1998. I'm not at all confident bullying was such a motive, but if it was, it seems to me it has to be born of junior year. You probably know more about Rocky and the like than I do, but I would suggest it is more often seniors who bully underclassmen more than juniors bully sophomores or something like that. Also of their actions during the massacre, which often seem to me more important than stories relayed after and affected by it, that quote in the library seems particular salient to the case, and for better or worse just seems to me portrayed incorrectly.
cakeman
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Subject: Re: Yes I wrote the article for FHM... ask away... Tue Sep 01, 2020 9:09 pm
Here is a post from Randy, which speaks for itself on the significance of that (likely incorrect) four years quote to the bullying narrative:
"I worked with Peter Langman for a long time. I got him contacts, gave him information and talked with him. He wrote his book and ignored just about everything we told him. He had an agenda. I was very disappointed.
Again, I strongly recommend reading Lonnie Athens, James Gilligan, Garbarino, deBecker and others. In those books you can learn the causes behind school shootings.
When you read them you will see it, you will feel it. They hold the truths to the reasons for school shootings.
If you kick a dog around long enough, it will fight back. Columbine was an abusive school. “This is for what you have put us through for four years.”
There are reasons. Learn them. Learn them for yourselves."
SusyJP
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Subject: Re: Yes I wrote the article for FHM... ask away... Thu Dec 15, 2022 12:57 pm
Hi Reznor. You said:
Reznor wrote:
The article was featured in the September 2004 issue
I have this issue and there is no Columbine article inside. Where did you hear it was in this issue? I'm wondering because I can't find it in the entirety of 2004 issues at all, nor 2003, nor 2005.
Does anyone have this issue of FHM who can verify where it really came from?
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Subject: Re: Yes I wrote the article for FHM... ask away...