Columbine High School Massacre Discussion Forum
Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.
Columbine High School Massacre Discussion Forum

A place to discuss the Columbine High School Massacre along with other school shootings and crimes.
Anyone interested in researching, learning, discussing and debating with us, please come join our community!
 
HomeHome  PortalPortal  CalendarCalendar  FAQFAQ  SearchSearch  MemberlistMemberlist  RegisterRegister  Log inLog in  

 

 Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine

Go down 
+2
qwertyu
Norwegian
6 posters
Go to page : Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
AuthorMessage
Norwegian
Top 10 Contributor



Posts : 1130
Contribution Points : 64219
Forum Reputation : 252
Join date : 2018-12-06

Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine    Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Icon_minitimeWed Aug 19, 2020 3:38 pm

cakeman wrote:
Ligeya wrote:
I really don't understand how it's easier to believe someone was bullied to the point of breaking and commiting terrible crime. Easier than what?
It's a horrific thought.
Easier to believe they were anti heroes rising up against their tormentors (bullying, effectively justified) or that they simply snapped  for 15 minutes (mental illness, effectively insanity) than to believe teenagers are capable of deciding to murder.

Exactly. And thats why comprehending these shootings are so complicated
Back to top Go down
View user profile
cakeman

cakeman


Posts : 697
Contribution Points : 60957
Forum Reputation : 1301
Join date : 2018-07-27

Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine    Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Icon_minitimeWed Aug 19, 2020 3:47 pm

Ligeya wrote:
Norwegian wrote:
thelmar wrote:
Norwegian wrote:
'Right after the shootings and again in late 1999 several TCM members came forward (to the media and to this site as well) to say that the young men were never part of their group. Most of the kids who'd been in the group had already graduated before the shootings. They said the shooters were friends of Chris Morris, a Trench Coater who had attended Columbine previously. Their claims were later corroberated by independent in-depth probes by news organizations such as the Pulitzer-winning Denver Post.'

Norwegian wrote:
Anyways, besides the point. The point is that we know by now that not every news outlet that came out after this is accurate. Thats why one should never take statements at face value.
Norwegian wrote:
nd one has to take withness accounts with caution.

If I am understanding this correctly, your argument is that Gleason is perpetuating a false myth because she's even discussing that Chuck Phillips, Joe Stair, Robert Perry, Brian Sargent, Marla Foust, Alex Marsh, and Robyn Anderson- TCM members- said that Eric and Dylan were TCM because we can't trust witness statements fully.

And your proof that these particular witness statements are untrue is to say that other witnesses disagreed with them and a nationally respected news organization says the latter group is right? This seems to be a rather contradictory stance to take.

I suspect that it does, given that this has been so videly debunked by major news outlets, yes.  People tend to believe what they want to believe. If someone says that climate change isnt real they Will also go at Great to proove that its not real. Even if it is. And thats a clear example of confirmation bias. They cherry pick sources that confirm their point of view. Nobody likes it when they are wrong. But aknowledging failures and mishaps and that there is mis-information out there to check these sources and other sources of information is the only way to move forward. And its true that even friends of Eric and Dylan Could be wrong. So than we have to meassure the possibility that even people that slightly interacted with them Could be wrong

So friends of Eric and Dylan who actually went to Columbine, knew them and spend time with them, were actual members of TCM, might be wrong, but major news outlets who allegedly debunked this definitely know better?
Not to mention Eric and Dylan themselves, who apparently told their family members about being in TCM (Eric's father) and made personal school projects under the title of TCM, apparently also knew nothing.
Not only some personal school project, but one clearly foreshadowing the massacre and one of the handful of tapes left for viewing by the likes of us after it. Not to mention one can also add the witnesses during the massacre characterizing them as the trench coat mafia even if that's confounded by the media.   The debunking was that the Trench Coat Mafia was some gothic Y2K doomsday cult gang hell bent on destruction and suicide.  That the massacre was about them, is usually the debunking as I understand. Whether Eric and Dylan were members, or not being members still were inspired by the real trench coat mafia in some aspects and if so which, seems to me a more perplexing question.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Norwegian
Top 10 Contributor



Posts : 1130
Contribution Points : 64219
Forum Reputation : 252
Join date : 2018-12-06

Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine    Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Icon_minitimeWed Aug 19, 2020 4:39 pm

cakeman wrote:
Ligeya wrote:
Norwegian wrote:
thelmar wrote:
Norwegian wrote:
'Right after the shootings and again in late 1999 several TCM members came forward (to the media and to this site as well) to say that the young men were never part of their group. Most of the kids who'd been in the group had already graduated before the shootings. They said the shooters were friends of Chris Morris, a Trench Coater who had attended Columbine previously. Their claims were later corroberated by independent in-depth probes by news organizations such as the Pulitzer-winning Denver Post.'

Norwegian wrote:
Anyways, besides the point. The point is that we know by now that not every news outlet that came out after this is accurate. Thats why one should never take statements at face value.
Norwegian wrote:
nd one has to take withness accounts with caution.

If I am understanding this correctly, your argument is that Gleason is perpetuating a false myth because she's even discussing that Chuck Phillips, Joe Stair, Robert Perry, Brian Sargent, Marla Foust, Alex Marsh, and Robyn Anderson- TCM members- said that Eric and Dylan were TCM because we can't trust witness statements fully.

And your proof that these particular witness statements are untrue is to say that other witnesses disagreed with them and a nationally respected news organization says the latter group is right? This seems to be a rather contradictory stance to take.

I suspect that it does, given that this has been so videly debunked by major news outlets, yes.  People tend to believe what they want to believe. If someone says that climate change isnt real they Will also go at Great to proove that its not real. Even if it is. And thats a clear example of confirmation bias. They cherry pick sources that confirm their point of view. Nobody likes it when they are wrong. But aknowledging failures and mishaps and that there is mis-information out there to check these sources and other sources of information is the only way to move forward. And its true that even friends of Eric and Dylan Could be wrong. So than we have to meassure the possibility that even people that slightly interacted with them Could be wrong

So friends of Eric and Dylan who actually went to Columbine, knew them and spend time with them, were actual members of TCM, might be wrong, but major news outlets who allegedly debunked this definitely know better?
Not to mention Eric and Dylan themselves, who apparently told their family members about being in TCM (Eric's father) and made personal school projects under the title of TCM, apparently also knew nothing.
Not only some personal school project, but one clearly foreshadowing the massacre and one of the handful of tapes left for viewing by the likes of us after it. Not to mention one can also add the witnesses during the massacre characterizing them as the trench coat mafia even if that's confounded by the media.   The debunking was that the Trench Coat Mafia was some gothic Y2K doomsday cult gang hell bent on destruction and suicide.  That the massacre was about them, is usually the debunking as I understand. Whether Eric and Dylan were members, or not being members still were inspired by the real trench coat mafia in some aspects and if so which, seems to me a more perplexing question.


Wether or nor it Could help foresee the massacre is besides the point here. But what evidence there is to the fact that they were in the TCM. And look, citing people that knew as evidence isnt necessarily good enough evidence, either. Lots of people knew Eric and Dylan and they still got the facts completely wrong. And also, the debunking wasnt about the TCM not being goth. Or Just that, to be exact. Pretty much the entire debunking has been in regards to wether or not Eric and Dylan were part of the group, for which they supposedly werent.https://www.businessinsider.com/columbine-shooters-motives-2018-2


[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Norwegian
Top 10 Contributor



Posts : 1130
Contribution Points : 64219
Forum Reputation : 252
Join date : 2018-12-06

Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine    Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Icon_minitimeWed Aug 19, 2020 5:05 pm

And also, withnesses during a shooting are traumatized. You cant expect peoplestestimony to be reliable when they are under heavy stress.
Also, I wouldnt be surprised if [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.],here, references Erics dad calling 9/11https://youtu.be/fUucL2xfowc.

This is the only source of information I fan Come up with at this point as Im Tored. I dont trust everything that I find on YouTube, either way. So IDK wether its Fake or not.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Its seems like neither speculations were true, judging from this documentary
Back to top Go down
View user profile
thelmar

thelmar


Posts : 760
Contribution Points : 68257
Forum Reputation : 2993
Join date : 2018-07-15

Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine    Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Icon_minitimeWed Aug 19, 2020 6:07 pm

Norwegian wrote:
And also, withnesses during a shooting are traumatized. You cant expect peoplestestimony to be reliable when they are under heavy stress.
Also, I wouldnt be surprised if [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.],here, references Erics dad calling 9/11https://youtu.be/fUucL2xfowc.

This is the only source of information I fan Come up with at this point as Im Tored. I dont trust everything that I find on YouTube, either way. So IDK wether its Fake or not.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Its seems like neither speculations were true, judging from this documentary

The 911 call from Eric's dad is from the Jeffco 911 disks which you can purchase (or at least, used to be able to purchase, I don't know if they still sell them). I know, because I own them. I am sure that there is a log somewhere ([You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] could probably point the way) of everything on the 911 disk call logs. It is real and it is Eric Harris' father.

Also, you keep repeating that we can't rely on what their friends (who were TCM members) say as to them being in the TCM, yet you then cite that the newspapers debunked that they were in the TCM because other friends (who were TCM members) say that they weren't. If it doesn't work as evidence for their membership, how can it work as evidence against their membership? If anything, call it a draw and say you don't trust anything anyone says.

The Business Insider article used posted uses Cullen as its main source of information, so, no comment.

The Washington Post article gives the impression that the Trench Coat Mafia was only active during the 1998 school year and that Eric and Dylan weren't members because they weren't in the 1998 yearbook picture of the TCM. Also, that they were not part of the core friends group of the TCM members from that year.
If the TCM wasn't active the year Eric and Dylan were Seniors, why did Robyn Anderson write a special tribute to the TCM that was supposed to appear in the 1999 yearbook? The tribute got pulled after the massacre.

If Eric and Dylan were not part of the friends group of TCM members from the 1998 school year, why did several of the people who were pictured (or mentioned) in the 1998 yearbook picture of the TCM, specifically, Joe Stair, Brian Sargent, Chuck Phillips, Pauline Colby, Alex Marsh, and Tad Boles, say that Eric and Dylan were members?
Krista Hanley said that Eric and Dylan started hanging around with the TCM (she did not specify if she viewed them as members) shortly after that 1998 pic of the group was taken. She knows, because she took it. Most American high schools require that any photos that are going into the yearbook need to be handed in by mid- to late fall of that school year. This would have placed it in the early to mid-fall of 1997. This is consistent with Tad Boles' and Marla Foust's statements of when Eric and Dylan joined the group.

There are others in the group who said they weren't members- Chris Morris, Cory Friesen, and John Savage (the latter of whom is not in the 1998 photo, nor is he mentioned, yet everyone believes him when he says he was a TCM member), are 3 that come to mind.

Look, Eric and Dylan are dead and only they know if they considered themselves Trench Coat Mafia members. But dismissing all of this information out of hand just because you read somewhere that the issue had already been decided is the very definition of confirmation bias. If you aren't looking at both sides of this, then why study the case at all. Ochberg said they weren't bullied, Fuselier said Eric was a psychopath, the Denver Post said they weren't TCM members. Guess the research is done, eh?




qwertyu likes this post

Back to top Go down
View user profile
sororityalpha
Top 10 Contributor
sororityalpha


Posts : 2907
Contribution Points : 107037
Forum Reputation : 901
Join date : 2013-03-22

Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine    Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Icon_minitimeWed Aug 19, 2020 6:15 pm

All of the 911 Calls including the Log are in the Master Archive.

Direct link here:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

911 Log shows the call here:

Console 2 13.04.58 13.05.52 Eric Harris' father

Subtract 2:46 to coincide with the official timeline would make the call from 1:02:12 PM to 1:03:06 PM

The call only lasted 54 seconds.

_________________
Columbine Master Archive

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Back to top Go down
View user profile
thelmar

thelmar


Posts : 760
Contribution Points : 68257
Forum Reputation : 2993
Join date : 2018-07-15

Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine    Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Icon_minitimeWed Aug 19, 2020 7:00 pm

Thank you, [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] I knew you'd come through.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Norwegian
Top 10 Contributor



Posts : 1130
Contribution Points : 64219
Forum Reputation : 252
Join date : 2018-12-06

Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine    Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Icon_minitimeWed Aug 19, 2020 7:08 pm

thelmar wrote:
Norwegian wrote:
And also, withnesses during a shooting are traumatized. You cant expect peoplestestimony to be reliable when they are under heavy stress.
Also, I wouldnt be surprised if [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.],here, references Erics dad calling 9/11https://youtu.be/fUucL2xfowc.

This is the only source of information I fan Come up with at this point as Im Tored. I dont trust everything that I find on YouTube, either way. So IDK wether its Fake or not.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Its seems like neither speculations were true, judging from this documentary

The 911 call from Eric's dad is from the Jeffco 911 disks which you can purchase (or at least, used to be able to purchase, I don't know if they still sell them). I know, because I own them. I am sure that there is a log somewhere ([You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] could probably point the way) of everything on the 911 disk call logs. It is real and it is Eric Harris' father.

Also, you keep repeating that we can't rely on what their friends (who were TCM members) say as to them being in the TCM, yet you then cite that the newspapers debunked that they were in the TCM because other friends (who were TCM members) say that they weren't. If it doesn't work as evidence for their membership, how can it work as evidence against their membership? If anything, call it a draw and say you don't trust anything anyone says.

The Business Insider article used posted uses Cullen as its main source of information, so, no comment.

The Washington Post article gives the impression that the Trench Coat Mafia was only active during the 1998 school year and that Eric and Dylan weren't members because they weren't in the 1998 yearbook picture of the TCM. Also, that they were not part of the core friends group of the TCM members from that year.
If the TCM wasn't active the year Eric and Dylan were Seniors, why did Robyn Anderson write a special tribute to the TCM that was supposed to appear in the 1999 yearbook? The tribute got pulled after the massacre.

If Eric and Dylan were not part of the friends group of TCM members from the 1998 school year, why did several of the people who were pictured (or mentioned) in the 1998 yearbook picture of the TCM, specifically, Joe Stair, Brian Sargent, Chuck Phillips, Pauline Colby, Alex Marsh, and Tad Boles, say that Eric and Dylan were members?
Krista Hanley said that Eric and Dylan started hanging around with the TCM (she did not specify if she viewed them as members) shortly after that 1998 pic of the group was taken. She knows, because she took it. Most American high schools require that any photos that are going into the yearbook need to be handed in by mid- to late fall of that school year. This would have placed it in the early to mid-fall of 1997. This is consistent with Tad Boles' and Marla Foust's statements of when Eric and Dylan joined the group.

There are others in the group who said they weren't members- Chris Morris, scratch Cory Friesen, and John Savage (the latter of whom is not in the 1998 photo, nor is he mentioned, yet everyone believes him when he says he was a TCM member), are 3 that come to mind.

Look, Eric and Dylan are dead and only they know if they considered themselves Trench Coat Mafia members. But dismissing all of this information out of hand just because you read somewhere that the issue had already been decided is the very definition of confirmation bias. If you aren't looking at both sides of this, then why study the case at all. Ochberg said they weren't bullied, Fuselier said Eric was a psychopath, the Denver Post said they weren't TCM members. Guess the research is done, eh?  


 


Absolutely correct that we cant. I repeat this as long as I have to, because thats a fact. There are some examples in 'The search for truth at Columbine'. Hence, relying on something to be correct because someone said so doesnt mean that its true. There are many withness accounts about Columbine that are simply false for a number of reasons. When it comes to information by the media this was to illustrate that both the narrative of TCM as goth and the narrative of Eric and Dylans membership in this group has been debunked.

What makes you so sure that they only used Cullen as a source? They mentioned Cullen, yes(a lot of news papers do that), but that doesnt mean they have used Cullen as only source of information.


Honestly: Writing tributes to a group isnt the same as being part of a that group. But lets look at what Washington post says:

'Harris and Klebold knew a few of these students, but they were not considered core to the friend group, the Jefferson County Sheriff’s Office later determined, and did not appear in a photo of Trench Coat Mafia members in the 1998 yearbook. Most of those students had graduated the year before the shooting'. So what it says is that most, not all, graduated in 1998. They dont specically say that they werent active. Only that most of them had graduated at that time

Also worth noticing' Police also later determined that some students confused Klebold with another student who was in the group and resembled Klebold'. How do we know that members of the TCM didnt confuse Dylan with other students, as I see often? For example, Dylan resembled another student named Robert.
So one student confused Robert and Dylan during the attack.



Back to top Go down
View user profile
thelmar

thelmar


Posts : 760
Contribution Points : 68257
Forum Reputation : 2993
Join date : 2018-07-15

Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine    Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Icon_minitimeWed Aug 19, 2020 8:01 pm

Norwegian wrote:
When it comes to information by the media this was to illustrate that both the narrative of TCM as goth and the narrative of Eric and Dylans membership in this group has been debunked.

I keep asking you this, yet you don't answer. How was their membership debunked? You cited the acolumbinesite quote which vaguely said some TCM members said Eric and Dylan weren't part of the group and the newspaper confirmed it. Confirmed it how? How did the newspaper explain away all of the other people who said they were members, including Tom Klebold, Wayne Harris, and 6 confirmed TCM members? You just keep repeating that the witness statements may not be reliable, yet you act like the statements of those who said Harris and Klebold were NOT members ARE reliable. Explain why that set of people is reliable.

Norwegian wrote:
What makes you so sure that they only used Cullen as a source? They mentioned Cullen, yes(a lot of news papers do that), but that doesnt mean they have used Cullen as only source of information.
First, I didn't say they "only used Cullen as a source," I said he was the main source. Second, did you read the article? The majority of the quotes are directly from Cullen. It takes little inference to know he was a main source.

Norwegian wrote:
Honestly: Writing tributes to a group isnt the same as being part of a that group.

She wrote:
Ode to the TCM-From hacking and bowling to a downtown day at a certain convention, from players and abstainers to certain teachers we won’t mention, from learning to sack and wearing black, to last years week of OOS suspension. High school is over so get some coolio’s and relieve that built up tension. Have an awesome summer! Robyn.” wrote:

Are you honestly going to tell me that you believe she wrote this but wasn't a member? Do you know teens who knew all about the activities and inside jokes of other groups and liked them so much that they were willing to spend their own money to have a tribute to that group appear in the yearbook?

Norwegian wrote:
But lets look at what Washington post says:
'Harris and Klebold knew a few of these students, but they were not considered core to the friend group, the Jefferson County Sheriff’s Office later determined, and did not appear in a photo of Trench Coat Mafia members in the 1998 yearbook. Most of those students had graduated the year before the shooting'.
So what it says is that most, not all, graduated in 1998. They dont specically say that they werent active. Only that most of them had graduated at that time

You are correct, the article does not say the group was not active. I inferred that if most of the groups members graduated, there wouldn't be much of a group left.

Norwegian wrote:
Also worth noticing' Police also later determined that some students confused Klebold with another student who was in the group and resembled Klebold'. How do we know that members of the TCM didnt confuse Dylan with other students, as I see often? For example, Dylan resembled another student named Robert.
So one student confused Robert and Dylan during the attack.
The students (and there was more than one) who confused Perry with Klebold were not TCM members, they were Columbine students who had previously seen or were acquainted with, Robert Perry. ALL TCM members knew Robert Perry personally, because he was part of the group. Saying that Perry was in the group but that the other members of the group didn't know who he was well enough that they would confuse him with Dylan makes no sense. This means they would be hanging out with the kid and thinking he's Dylan? No, that's not a valid argument and it doesn't explain why those same TCM members said that Eric was a member. By your logic, who were they confusing Eric for?
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Norwegian
Top 10 Contributor



Posts : 1130
Contribution Points : 64219
Forum Reputation : 252
Join date : 2018-12-06

Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine    Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Icon_minitimeWed Aug 19, 2020 9:16 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] I actually looked up interviews with people you mentioned through the JCSO and this deserve some further clarity, before I go to bed here(because, its late but we should get with the facts). When looking through the index list of names that Peter Langmann provided in hes index, Plus my I Phone decided to fuck up. I couldnt find every name on that list, but I did find sa few of the people you mentioned and so lets get through those that I found:


Brian Sargent: Doesnt say that they are members. He only States that he greeted them. He also mentions the people that are in the TCM. None on hes list are Eric Harris or Dylan Klebold.

Pauline Colby:
She rarely talked to Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold and She was a loose associate; not an active member.




Back to top Go down
View user profile
Norwegian
Top 10 Contributor



Posts : 1130
Contribution Points : 64219
Forum Reputation : 252
Join date : 2018-12-06

Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine    Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Icon_minitimeWed Aug 19, 2020 9:59 pm

Krista Hanley: She merely States that they hung out with them(which everyone that has followed this case knows that they did. But no, of course that cannot be taken as fact that they were part of the group).

ATedd Boles: Hes the first one I Could find so far to have specically claimed that Eric and Dylan joined the TCM in 1997.

Marla Faust also suggests that Eric and Dylan joined the group,but pay attention:her statement is actually pretty murky. Because while at the same time that she argues that Eric and Dylan were part of the group, She also says that She didnt actively participate as much in the group. In other words, we have to be very careful with statements out there, and what we can say about this is that these statements, from the people you mentioned, are in no way as clarifying as, you represent them.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
thelmar

thelmar


Posts : 760
Contribution Points : 68257
Forum Reputation : 2993
Join date : 2018-07-15

Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine    Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Icon_minitimeWed Aug 19, 2020 10:25 pm

Norwegian wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] I actually looked up interviews with people you mentioned through the JCSO and this deserve some further clarity, before I go to bed here(because, its late but we should get with the facts). When looking through the index list of names that Peter Langmann provided in hes index, Plus my I Phone decided to fuck up. I couldnt find every name on that list, but I did find sa few of the people you mentioned and so lets get through those that I found:

Brian Sargent: Doesnt say that they are members. He only States that he greeted them. He also mentions the people that are in the TCM. None on hes list are Eric Harris or Dylan Klebold.

Pauline Colby:
She rarely talked to Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold and She was a loose associate; not an active member.

I'll save you the trouble, as I know exactly where all the statements are.

Brian Sargent pg. 8784
Sargent named the members of the Trench Coat Mafia. (Correct spelling of names unknown.) • Tad Boles* • Chris Morris* • Josh Barnes • Kristen Theobold • Chuck* (Unknown Last name -interviewed at this same time) • Krista Hanley • Cory Frezen • Eric* (Unknown last name) • Dillon* (Unknown last name) wrote:
Brian Sargent pg. 8785
When I asked him if Dillon's last name was, "Klebold", he said that he thought it might be. Dillon is rather quiet, except when among friends. Dillon was involved in many video projects. Sargent didn't know him personally wrote:

Pauline Colby- I never said she cited Eric and Dylan as members. Pauline was in the 1998 yearbook photo of TCM members.

Alex Marsh pg. 10776
When asked who else was involved in the gang beside Eric HARRIS and Dylan KLEBOLD, she gave the names of: Chris Morris, Nicole Markham, Christine Theibalt, Joe Stair, Krista Hanley, Eric Jackson wrote:

Robert Perry pg. 10856- 10857
ROBERT PERRY was asked to describe the trench coats that were worn by the members of the Trench coat Mafia. He provided his black overcoat and explained the others had purchased the western duster style coat. He advised the following list of members all had the duster type coats: Chris Morris, Tad Boles, Dylan, Eric Harris, Joe Stair, Chuck or Charles, Horst wrote:

Chuck Phillips pg. 10867
When asked how he knew this, PHILLIPS said the news identified the suspects as being in the Trench Coat Mafia. ERIC and DYLAN were the only subjects' part of the group they could not locate. ERIC and DYLAN also attend Columbine High School. wrote:

Joe Stair pg. 9823
Joseph Stair indicated that he is a former member of TCM. the "Trench Coat Mafia." He stated that current members are Christopher Morris. an individual he knew as ''Robert," who had bad acne and buck teeth. Another individual he identified as Brian Sargent. Dylan Klebold, who is a friend of Chris Morris. Another individual he knew as Eric, who also was a friend of Chris Morris, who he had only met once wrote:




Back to top Go down
View user profile
thelmar

thelmar


Posts : 760
Contribution Points : 68257
Forum Reputation : 2993
Join date : 2018-07-15

Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine    Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Icon_minitimeWed Aug 19, 2020 10:28 pm

This is an edit to my last post, as I know if I try to edit with all those quotes in there, I'll mess something up.
I see I did mistakenly say Colby said they were TCM. This was an error on my part. But I do believe that her being in the picture with the TCM indicates she was, at one time, in the TCM.

Also adding that in Brian Sargent's statement, he doesn't say Eric's last name but it is obvious by what he does say that he is referring to Harris. For part of the interview, the Officer calls Dylan by the name of "Dan."
pg. 8786
I asked who were good friends with Eric and Dan. Sargent said that: Chris Morris Zach Heckler (NFI) and some people in their video class were rather good friends. In video class, Eric and Dan made a video trailer using lighter fluid, and after lighting it, the letters "RNN" appeared. This stands for, "Rebel News Network". This trailer was broadcast prior to the school news, and apparently the school officials thought RNN meant something else. Eric and Dan never mentioned a suicide mission. He did not think they were capable of killing others. He didn't think they wanted to die. Sargent felt that they had so much going for them. wrote:


Last edited by thelmar on Wed Aug 19, 2020 10:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top Go down
View user profile
thelmar

thelmar


Posts : 760
Contribution Points : 68257
Forum Reputation : 2993
Join date : 2018-07-15

Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine    Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Icon_minitimeWed Aug 19, 2020 10:42 pm

Tad Boles pg. 10656
Early members of the group were Chris Morris and Boles. In 1997 Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold joined the group. Boles first met Harris in the Spring of 1998 through classes. Harris wore a duster. Klebold was known to Boles from Ken Caryl Junior High School. He originally met Klebold through Chris Morris. wrote:

Marla Foust pg. 1410
Group just fell apart after last year. This is when Eric, Perry and Dylan got into the group. Group picture in year book are not all TCM members, some were not pictured wrote:

Eric Jackson, pg. 10770
Jackson said he didn't consider himself a member; a few of the members identified him as one. Jackson was dating Krista Hanley, who was a member.
J
ackson stated he hangs out with the TCM but does not consider himself a member. He stated the members he knows are Eric Harris, Dylan Kleybold, Chris Morris, Corey Freezen, and Zach Heckler wrote:
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Norwegian
Top 10 Contributor



Posts : 1130
Contribution Points : 64219
Forum Reputation : 252
Join date : 2018-12-06

Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine    Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Icon_minitimeThu Aug 20, 2020 4:02 am

thelmar wrote:
Tad Boles pg. 10656


Marla Foust pg. 1410
Thelmar, Ive Just skipped through several of these people that you mentioned saying that Eric and Dylan were part of the TCM. Several of them doesnt actually specically say that Eric and Dylan were part of this group. So either they did say it or they did not. But what matters if you are going to suggest that they did say this you have to back up your claim. What the documents suggests is that several these statements are, in fact, contrary to what you said. Except for a few.

Eric Jackson, pg. 10770
Jackson said he didn't consider himself a member; a few of the members identified him as one. Jackson was dating Krista Hanley, who was a member.
J
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Norwegian
Top 10 Contributor



Posts : 1130
Contribution Points : 64219
Forum Reputation : 252
Join date : 2018-12-06

Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine    Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Icon_minitimeThu Aug 20, 2020 4:05 am

thelmar wrote:
Tad Boles pg. 10656


Marla Foust pg. 1410


Eric Jackson, pg. 10770
Jackson said he didn't consider himself a member; a few of the members identified him as one. Jackson was dating Krista Hanley, who was a member.
J


Thelmar

1:First of all, several of those people you mentioned specically did not say that Eric and Dylan were part of the TCM.

2: Some of the people you are referring to were only loose associates of the TCM. So that suggests that they arent necessarily reliable.

Read the texts you are referring to. For one, the, First statement doesnt suggest that Eric and Dylan were part of that group. It mentions a guy named Eric and another person named Dillon. No evidence, whatsoever,given that there was another Eric that partook in that group. So, no, he doesnt specically say that Eric and Dylan were part of that group. In other words, I stand by that statement. Eric and Dylan isnt mentioned anywhere on that particular List. Also, he says, he thought it might be. In other words, again. Not evidence. No suggestion that they were part of that group. It says 'might'. Which, again doesnt proove your point.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Ligeya




Posts : 204
Contribution Points : 27999
Forum Reputation : 53
Join date : 2020-05-06

Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine    Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Icon_minitimeThu Aug 20, 2020 4:36 am

I think "Dillon" is a simple mistake of student who mentioned him or maybe officer who wrote down this testimony.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Norwegian
Top 10 Contributor



Posts : 1130
Contribution Points : 64219
Forum Reputation : 252
Join date : 2018-12-06

Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine    Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Icon_minitimeThu Aug 20, 2020 4:59 am

Alex marsh:

Pay attention to everything thats stated related to Alex Marsh wo cherry picking statements

'Alex stated She knew who Harris and Klebold were. She stated that She had worked with Klebold on the fall play of Frankenstein that the school put on.
She stated that She knew him by First name, but he probably didnt know her by First name. She stated She knew them mostly because her friends hung out with Harris and Klebold. I asked her who rose friends were and She told me Nicole Markham, Chris Morris and Krista Hanley. She stated She knew who Harris was  but reckognized him by hes name Reb. She stated She didnt hung out with them. She stated She usually saw them between her Second and third period class. She stated that they would be together and enter the building near the library entrance and walked down the hall. She stated that She was not sure if the saw them on the day of the shooting. I asked her about the TCM- grpup. She stated that She was part of the group, but the group was now dead. She stated the group died when others stopped wearing the long, Black Trench Coats. She stated that the group was more active last year. Many of the groups members were seniors and had graduated and left last year. Alex said that She did not have a long, black Trench Coat.

I asked Alex for other members of the group. She stated Joe Stair was a member, as was Brian Sargent. She stated that the group started to not like Brian Sargent, because he was beginning to be 'an all around jackass'. She stated Eric Jackson was a member of the group and provided most of the transportation. She stated Kristen Theilbault, Tad Boles and Charles Phillips( graduated two years ago), were members. She stated She was closest to Nicole and Kristen and they are lunch together everyday. She stated She had advanced acting and theater production in the auditorium during fourth hour'.

People can read the entire text. But here we see someone that hardly interacted with the group nor associated heavily with Eric and Dylan.She, in fact, did not hang out with Eric and Dylan. Which means that this is Just another example of taking statements too much at face value.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
thelmar

thelmar


Posts : 760
Contribution Points : 68257
Forum Reputation : 2993
Join date : 2018-07-15

Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine    Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Icon_minitimeThu Aug 20, 2020 8:34 am

Norwegian wrote:

1:First of all, several of those people you mentioned specically did not say that Eric and Dylan were part of the TCM.
What? In all instances, the "group" and "gang" refers to the TCM, which is clear in the statements, I'm just too lazy to copy and paste the entire statements again but page numbers are there.
Boles- "Eric and Dylan joined the group"
Foust- "Group just fell apart after last year. This is when Eric, Perry, and Dylan got into the group."
Marsh- when asked who else was involved in the gang beside ERIC HARRIS and DYLAN KLEBOLD"
Perry- when asked about the coats worn by MEMBERS of the TCM he said "the following list of members all had the duster type coats: Chris Morris, Tad Boles, Dylan, Eric Harris, Joe Stair, Chuck or Charles, Horst "
Phillips- when he heard the perpertrators were members of the TCM "ERIC and DYLAN were the only subjects' part of the group they could not locate."
Stair- "stated that current members are Christopher Morris. an individual he knew as ''Robert," who had bad acne and buck teeth. Another individual he identified as Brian Sargent. Dylan Klebold, who is a friend of Chris Morris. Another individual he knew as Eric, who also was a friend of Chris Morris, who he had only met once."

Norwegian wrote:
2: Some of the people you are referring to were only loose associates of the TCM. So that suggests that they arent necessarily reliable.
Aside from Eric Jackson, all of the people mentioned are either pictured or mentioned in the 1998 year book photo that explicitly states that the people here are TCM. Are you now claiming that the 1998 yearbook photo of the TCM does not represent the TCM?

Norwegian wrote:
Read the texts you are referring to. For one, the, First statement doesnt suggest that Eric and Dylan were part of that group. It mentions a guy named Eric and another person named Dillon. No evidence, whatsoever,given that there was another Eric that partook in that group. So, no, he doesnt specically say that Eric and Dylan were part of that group. In other words, I stand by that statement. Eric and Dylan isnt mentioned anywhere on that particular List. Also, he says, he thought it might be. In other words, again. Not evidence. No suggestion that they were part of that group. It says 'might'. Which, again doesnt proove your point.
What?
The officer misspelled Dylan as Dillon. If you've read the 11k you know this happened a hundred times, if not more. They also misspelled Klebold as Kleybold and Kleboid, and Harris as Hamis, among other things. You will notice that the police officer also wrote "Dan" when talking about Dylan in this interview but it is clearly Dylan they are talking about; there is no honest debate there.
Sargent says "Dillon" was rather quiet except when with friends, that he was into video productions and that he was friends with Chris Morris and Zach Heckler.
Sargent is clearly referring to Dylan Klebold. Sargent mentions "Dan" and Eric doing the RNN commercial. Dylan Klebold is in that commercial. Sargent says "Dan" and Eric never talked about a suicide mission, he did not think they were capable of killing others. Clearly he is talking about the Eric (Harris) and Dan (Dylan Klebold) who actually did kill others and did commit suicide. Again, there is little room for misinterpretation.
The only true argument you could make would be that maybe Sargent's Eric referred to Eric Jackson, because Jackson did do video productions, often with Dylan Klebold, and he was friends with Chris Morris. I don't know whether he was friends with Heckler. But that doesn't explain why he said he didn't think "Eric" would kill or go on a suicide mission.

Regarding Alex Marsh-
Norwegian wrote:
People can read the entire text. But here we see someone that hardly interacted with the group nor associated heavily with Eric and Dylan.She, in fact, did not hang out with Eric and Dylan. Which means that this is Just another example of taking statements too much at face value.
Alex Marsh is in the 1998 yearbook photo of the TCM. Alex Marsh hung out every day with members of the TCM. She was at lunch, as you mentioned with Nicole Markham, and with Krista Hanley, both TCM members and Nicole was dating Chris Morris, also a TCM member. Alex also always ate lunch with Kristen Theibault who I believe was out or went home early that day. Theibault was also TCM.
I agree that Marsh did not know Eric and Dylan well but she was TCM and by her statement interacted heavily with other TCM members (contrary to what you have stated). This means that she is likely to have known who other members of the group were even if she was not friends with them.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Norwegian
Top 10 Contributor



Posts : 1130
Contribution Points : 64219
Forum Reputation : 252
Join date : 2018-12-06

Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine    Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Icon_minitimeThu Aug 20, 2020 10:56 am

Im extremely tired, havent and didnt get much sleep last night, and the forum continiues to log me out, when on top of this I cant copy and paste from the original documents, so I have to type. Unfortunately you missed the point of taking everything that was said in those statements with you, and than you would have noticed that the answers are far from black and White.

I hope that there are other more skilled people in here that can answer these questions better. And ill be back when I have more energy to go through these statements(because those are statements you shouldnt do cherry pickin out of [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]).

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] are you interested or do you have any thoughts about this 🙂?

Norwegian likes this post

Back to top Go down
View user profile
Ligeya




Posts : 204
Contribution Points : 27999
Forum Reputation : 53
Join date : 2020-05-06

Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine    Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Icon_minitimeThu Aug 20, 2020 11:10 am

Can we talk here about other interesting moments in Rita's book or should i create another thread?
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Norwegian
Top 10 Contributor



Posts : 1130
Contribution Points : 64219
Forum Reputation : 252
Join date : 2018-12-06

Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine    Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Icon_minitimeThu Aug 20, 2020 12:27 pm

Ligeya wrote:
Can we talk here about other interesting moments in Rita's book or should i create another thread?

I think the best to do is create another thread. This Just turned into a TCM- thread because I noticed it and brought it up. But I have to say that some of the accounts in regards to the TCM does seem quite murky. Too murky to pass them off as definite yes/no answer. Besides I dont want to run the risk of creating another thread in the wrong section. But, yeah, the TCM- thing is important to get to the bottom off Especially when people Come off as very biased in how they read sources.


Last edited by Norwegian on Thu Aug 20, 2020 12:34 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Norwegian
Top 10 Contributor



Posts : 1130
Contribution Points : 64219
Forum Reputation : 252
Join date : 2018-12-06

Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine    Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Icon_minitimeThu Aug 20, 2020 12:31 pm

thelmar wrote:
Norwegian wrote:

1:First of all, several of those people you mentioned specically did not say that Eric and Dylan were part of the TCM.
What? In all instances, the "group" and "gang" refers to the TCM, which is clear in the statements, I'm just too lazy to copy and paste the entire statements again but page numbers are there.
Boles- "Eric and Dylan joined the group"
Foust- "Group just fell apart after last year. This is when Eric, Perry, and Dylan got into the group."
Marsh- when asked who else was involved in the gang beside ERIC HARRIS and DYLAN KLEBOLD"
Perry- when asked about the coats worn by MEMBERS of the TCM he said "the following list of members all had the duster type coats: Chris Morris, Tad Boles, Dylan, Eric Harris, Joe Stair, Chuck or Charles, Horst "
Phillips- when he heard the perpertrators were members of the TCM "ERIC and DYLAN were the only subjects' part of the group they could not locate."
Stair- "stated that current members are Christopher Morris. an individual he knew as ''Robert," who had bad acne and buck teeth. Another individual he identified as Brian Sargent. Dylan Klebold, who is a friend of Chris Morris. Another individual he knew as Eric, who also was a friend of Chris Morris, who he had only met once."

Norwegian wrote:
2: Some of the people you are referring to were only loose associates of the TCM. So that suggests that they arent necessarily reliable.
Aside from Eric Jackson, all of the people mentioned are either pictured or mentioned in the 1998 year book photo that explicitly states that the people here are TCM. Are you now claiming that the 1998 yearbook photo of the TCM does not represent the TCM?

Norwegian wrote:
Read the texts you are referring to. For one, the, First statement doesnt suggest that Eric and Dylan were part of that group. It mentions a guy named Eric and another person named Dillon. No evidence, whatsoever,given that there was another Eric that partook in that group. So, no, he doesnt specically say that Eric and Dylan were part of that group. In other words, I stand by that statement. Eric and Dylan isnt mentioned anywhere on that particular List. Also, he says, he thought it might be. In other words, again. Not evidence. No suggestion that they were part of that group. It says 'might'. Which, again doesnt proove your point.
What?
The officer misspelled Dylan as Dillon. If you've read the 11k you know this happened a hundred times, if not more. They also misspelled Klebold as Kleybold and Kleboid, and Harris as Hamis, among other things. You will notice that the police officer also wrote "Dan" when talking about Dylan in this interview but it is clearly Dylan they are talking about; there is no honest debate there.
Sargent says "Dillon" was rather quiet except when with friends, that he was into video productions and that he was friends with Chris Morris and Zach Heckler.
Sargent is clearly referring to Dylan Klebold. Sargent mentions "Dan" and Eric doing the RNN commercial. Dylan Klebold is in that commercial. Sargent says "Dan" and Eric never talked about a suicide mission, he did not think they were capable of killing others. Clearly he is talking about the Eric (Harris) and Dan (Dylan Klebold) who actually did kill others and did commit suicide. Again, there is little room for misinterpretation.
The only true argument you could make would be that maybe Sargent's Eric referred to Eric Jackson, because Jackson did do video productions, often with Dylan Klebold, and he was friends with Chris Morris. I don't know whether he was friends with Heckler. But that doesn't explain why he said he didn't think "Eric" would kill or go on a suicide mission.

Regarding Alex Marsh-
Norwegian wrote:
People can read the entire text. But here we see someone that hardly interacted with the group nor associated heavily with Eric and Dylan.She, in fact, did not hang out with Eric and Dylan. Which means that this is Just another example of taking statements too much at face value.
Alex Marsh is in the 1998 yearbook photo of the TCM. Alex Marsh hung out every day with members of the TCM. She was at lunch, as you mentioned with Nicole Markham, and with Krista Hanley, both TCM members and Nicole was dating Chris Morris, also a TCM member. Alex also always ate lunch with Kristen Theibault who I believe was out or went home early that day. Theibault was also TCM.
I agree that Marsh did not know Eric and Dylan well but she was TCM and by her statement interacted heavily with other TCM members (contrary to what you have stated). This means that she is likely to have known who other members of the group were even if she was not friends with them.

Precisely the last one suggests why this is a statement not to be taken at face value or as fact. When Alex herselves suggests that She did not know Eric and Dylan all that well. And do you have other sources that disputes that She wasnt an active member?
Back to top Go down
View user profile
thelmar

thelmar


Posts : 760
Contribution Points : 68257
Forum Reputation : 2993
Join date : 2018-07-15

Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine    Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Icon_minitimeThu Aug 20, 2020 11:58 pm

Just typed a nice long reply and it vanished and I was logged out when I hit Send. Maybe I'll type it again, but definitely not tonight.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Norwegian
Top 10 Contributor



Posts : 1130
Contribution Points : 64219
Forum Reputation : 252
Join date : 2018-12-06

Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine    Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri Aug 21, 2020 6:29 am

thelmar wrote:
Just typed a nice long reply and it vanished and I was logged out when I hit Send. Maybe I'll type it again, but definitely not tonight.

LOL, IKR. I struggled with this yesterday. Ill try to type on word Document. Take care
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Norwegian
Top 10 Contributor



Posts : 1130
Contribution Points : 64219
Forum Reputation : 252
Join date : 2018-12-06

Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine    Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri Aug 21, 2020 11:28 am

So I Just went over Sargent supposed statement and I couldnt find any mention of Eric and Dillon
The interview of Sargent is actually, in fact, on Page 10882-10888.

These are the exact statements
‘Seargent advised that the following individuals associate with the:

TCM
‘Nate Dykeman

Dykeman is a good friend of Chris Morris and senior at CHS. Dykeman usually ate lunch with Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold. Dykeman, Harris and Klebold all wore Black Trench Coats in September 1998. Dykeman drives a White Ford Truck with a 4’ lift lit’.

Eric Jackson.

Jackson is a good friend of Morris and drives a White Chevrolet blazer with a blue trim.

Nicole Dickey
Dickey is a freshman at CHS, tranfsering from Columbine finest,an alternative HS.

Thaddeus Boles


Boles is a good friend of Morris and works at Eccho communications. Boles dropped out of CHS, in the fall, 1998, and is working on hes GED
.

Nowhere here is Eric and Dylan mentioned.

He mentions Nate Dykeman, Eric Jackson, Nicole Dickey and Thaddeus Bowles.

And anything else he says related to Eric and Dylan


‘In the fall of 1998, Sargent did not talk to Eric Harris or Dylan Klebold, only to greet each other while passing in the hall. Sargent made friends with some athletes at the school and did not have the animosity against the athletes like Harris and Klebold. Dykeman was seen during the school day spending a lot of time with Harris and Klebold, wearing a Black Trench Coat. Sargent had a video productions Class with Harris and Klebold in the fall of 1998 and bowling class with Dykeman in the spring of 1998’.

‘On Monday April the 19th, 1999,Seargent observes Dykeman, Harris and Klebold leave the commons area of CHS at approx 11:10 AM. CHS has an open campus so students can leave campus and have lunch. Seargent left campus and had lunch with Dickey, Kirsta Winer, John Paul Zerger and Frank Zerger. Seargent returned to campus at approx 12: 35 PM because he had no 5th hour class. Upon returning to CHS, Seargent picked up Dickey and drove her to her residence and spent the afternoon at home due to an illness. Dickey called Seargent that evening to discuss personal matters’.

‘Seargent does not recall Harris or Klebold speaking German, except for Garman lyrics from the music group Rammstein’.

‘Seargent does not recall Eric Harris or Dylan Klebold having knowledge of explosives or bombs. Seargent is familiar with the Anarchist cookbook, a book that contains recieps for explosives and Scams’.

‘Seargent did not communicate with Harris or Klebold through the internet. He did recieve an occasional message from Morris and knew Morris had a webpage.

‘Seargent adviced that Robyn, a close friend of Harris and Klebold, May have additional knowledge. Robyn is a senior at CHS’.
In other words this is someone that claims not to know much about Dylan and Eric and Inspite of @Thelmars claims he didnt mention Eric and Dylan as part of the group
Back to top Go down
View user profile
thelmar

thelmar


Posts : 760
Contribution Points : 68257
Forum Reputation : 2993
Join date : 2018-07-15

Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine    Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri Aug 21, 2020 1:46 pm

Norwegian wrote:
So I Just went over Sargent supposed statement and I couldnt find any mention of Eric and Dillon
The interview of Sargent is actually, in fact, on Page 10882-10888.

Many people, especially their friends and victims, were interviewed multiple times during the investigation and their interviews are scattered throughout the 11k.
Sargent's first interview was done on April 20th at 7:05 pm. It is found on pg. 8784- 8786 [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
and contains all of the statements I mentioned above in my previous post where I cited that page number. This is the interview in which they talked about Dillon/Dan and Eric (no last name given).

The interview you are accessing was done on April 23.
In the interview you cite, he identified all of those kids pictured in the TCM photo from the 1998 yearbook. It appears that the officer did not ask if any of those kids were still TCM or if other people not pictured were TCM. For example, the 1998 picture specifically says, "plus Tad, Alex, Cory" (Tad Boles, Alex Marsh, Cory Friesen] but Sargent doesn't talk about them, just the people actually in the picture. Sargent then names TCM associates, Nate, Nicole, Eric Jackson and Tad. Tad Boles was one of the founding members of the TCM but he'd dropped out at the beginning of the '98-'99 school year and started working.

Back to top Go down
View user profile
Norwegian
Top 10 Contributor



Posts : 1130
Contribution Points : 64219
Forum Reputation : 252
Join date : 2018-12-06

Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine    Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri Aug 21, 2020 1:51 pm

Alex Marsh


Alex stated She knew who Eric and Dylan was. She stated She had worked with Klebold on the fall play of Frankenstein that the school put on. She stated that She knew him by hes First name but he probably didnt know her by her First name. She stated that She knew them mostly because her friends hung out with Klebold and Harris. I asked her who those friends were and She told me Nicole Markham, Chris Morris, and Krista Hanley. She stated that She knew who Harris was but recognized him more by hes name Reb. She stated that She didnt hang out with them. She stated She usually saw both of them between her Second and third period class. She stated they would be together and enter the building near the library entrance and walked down the hall. She stated She was not sure if She saw them on the day of the shooting. I asked her about the TCM. She stated that She was part of the group, but the group was now dead. She stated the group died when people started wearing long, Black thrench Coats.

I asked her for other members of the group. She stated Joe Stair was a member, as was Brian Seargent. She stated that the group started not to like Brian Seargent because he was beginning to an all around asshole. She stated Eric Jackson was a member and provided most of the transportation for the group. She stated Kristen Theilbault, Tad Boles and Charles Phillips(graduated two years prior) were members. She stated She was closest to Nicole and Kristin and they ate lunch together everyday. She stated She had advanced acting and theater production in the auditorium Siri g fourth hour. Alex stated She went straight to the cafeteria through the Doors from the auditorium during that time’

Put into larger context it looks as if what this paper is esswntially saying its who else was in the group other than Alex Marsh.

It doesnt specically suggest that She says that Harris and Klebold is a member.

‘Alex stated She saw Dylan Klebolds back as he walked North bound up the small hill on the grass. She stated She reckognized him because of hes dark coloured duster, his dark hat, and hes hair. She stated he was out of sight for Just a few seconds and than walked back down the hill. She stated She hesitated and watched because She wanted to make sure it was him. She stated that She did this partially out of disbelief and than She wanted to identify him’.

‘Alex stated than when he came back into her line of sight, he no longerr had a shotgun that She Could see him with when he was walking away from her. She stated when he was walking back down the Hill he was now carrying a gray metallic canister that She though to be the size of a year gas canister. She stated She watched him throw it into the seniot parking lot Where it exploded’

‘Alex stated that she ran into the North east corner of the cafeteria to get out of the line of sight of Dylan Klebold. Alex stated that She quickly looked into the cafeteria, looking to see if Klebold was there or if perhaps Eric and Dylan was in the kitchen. She stated She did this because Klebold and Harris was always in the kitchen. She then heard mr Andrés say ‘Alex, get in here’. Mr Andres was holding the auditorium door open. She stated people were screaming and were panicking at this time. She stated that She didnt feel as panicked as the others, She was more in control and that She was not going to let herself panick’.

‘Alex stated that She had seen Klebold and Harris at the prom and that She sat at the same table as he did. She stated that after the prom, Dylan and Eric were smiling and having fun and gave no indication of their plans or problems they were having. Alex stated through the grapewine She heard that Klebold and Harris had gone ‘paint bailing’ and that they had exploded a bomb somewhere at some time’.

‘Alex stated that sometimes they would get together with the group and talk about tactically how to blow up a room. She stated they did this in a jokingly manner. They even talked about how you would go about killing someone if you wanted. She stated that none of the group liked jocks, because they had air superiority about them. She further stated they all though it was funny how jocks play a ‘childs game’. She stated that She never heard any of the group say any racist slurs. Than She added ‘And if I ever did’…and her eyes videned and She raised her eyebrows(she is hispanic). She stated She was never afrajd of anyone in the group. Alex stated She never heard anything about the internet use or a webside. She did know that Eric Harris’ nickname was Reb.

‘Alex Marsh stated that the TCM group was dead this year,she described the group as being tame last year, and the year before that they were nore active,which She further describe as bad. She stated that She was completely clueless and baffled about the shooting that Klebold and Harris did. She suggests that I talk with Zak if I wanted to get an idea about how completely surprised pellmd were at this. She stated Zak worked with Klebold in the sound room during a play ‘Smoke in the room’. She stated that even as close as Zak was to working with Klebold, Zak was really surprised at this'
Back to top Go down
View user profile
thelmar

thelmar


Posts : 760
Contribution Points : 68257
Forum Reputation : 2993
Join date : 2018-07-15

Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine    Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri Aug 21, 2020 1:54 pm

I know that Alex Marsh was not friends with Eric and Dylan; I fail to see why this would preclude her from knowing whether or not they were in the Trench Coat Mafia. Alex was mentioned in the 1998 yearbook dedication to the TCM, along with Tad Boles and Cory Friesen; this means she was in the TCM at that time. This yearbook photo, in order to have made it into the spring 1998 yearbook, would have had to have been taken and submitted in early to mid- fall of 1997. Chuck Phillips, Marla Foust, and Krista Hanley confirm that Eric and Dylan joined the TCM sometime after this photo was taken (Krista said shortly after which concurs with Phillips saying 1997) and Foust says 1998 but doesn’t specify early or later 1998). If it is known that Marsh was in the TCM at the time that the 3 others say Eric and Dylan joined, why wouldn’t she know that they joined? What does her lack of personal relationship with them have to do with knowing if they joined the group?

Have you not socialized in larger groups where you were only really friends with a few people and others were friends of friends that you didn’t know very well? This dynamic encapsulates my entire junior high and high school experience. I had a few close friends, each of them had a few other close friends, etc. And those of us who had classes or lunch together would hang out in the cafeteria or sometimes outside of school, but my social interactions were mainly with the people that I was close to. I was somewhat familiar with the other people, but didn’t know a lot about them and I would never have socialized with them one on one in another setting without the group. I view this as very much the same as my own experiences; if you did not have such a dynamic perhaps that’s why you don’t relate to it?

I don’t think whether or not Marsh was an active member of the TCM at the time of the attack is germane to whether or not she would have been the reliability to known if Eric and Dylan were members. The fact that she was part of the group the year before when Eric and Dylan are alleged to have joined is what matters, as stated above.
But I do believe that she remained a member of the TCM into the 1999 school year. Why do I believe this? All of the TCM members described the group as a loose association of friends who shared similar interests. The TCM was not a regimented group with a secret handshake and scheduled meetings; it was just kids who liked to hang around and do similar things. The majority of Marsh’s friends remained from 1998 to 1999. Krista Hanley, Kristen Theibault, Nicole Markham, specifically, were all in the 1998 TCM photo. Marsh still hung around with these girls. Multiple students cited these girls and Marsh as TCM members, including other members of the TCM and associates of the group. The TCM may have gotten smaller in 1997 and again in 1998 when older members graduated, and by the time of the attack most said it was basically only Eric and Dylan (mostly Dylan) who still wore the trench coats/ dusters, but all of the kids who had been TCM in 1998 were still hanging around doing the same stuff in 1999, so why wouldn’t they still be TCM?

I know you won’t like my reasoning but… you asked!
Anyhow, I reiterate that the only confirmation we could have gotten about whether or not Eric and Dylan were TCM members were for them to have clearly stated or written “we are TCM.” It’s their perception of whether they were or not that counts, no one else’s. But that evidence doesn’t exist. We can only make inferences. I think there is information on each side (they were vs. they weren’t), and not enough on either to clearly convince me one way or the other so I don't think their membership has been debunked.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Norwegian
Top 10 Contributor



Posts : 1130
Contribution Points : 64219
Forum Reputation : 252
Join date : 2018-12-06

Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine    Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri Aug 21, 2020 1:57 pm

thelmar wrote:
Norwegian wrote:
So I Just went over Sargent supposed statement and I couldnt find any mention of Eric and Dillon
The interview of Sargent is actually, in fact, on Page 10882-10888.

Many people, especially their friends and victims, were interviewed multiple times during the investigation and their interviews are scattered throughout the 11k.
Sargent's first interview was done on April 20th at 7:05 pm. It is found on pg. 8784- 8786 [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
and contains all of the statements I mentioned above in my previous post where I cited that page number. This is the interview in which they talked about Dillon/Dan and Eric (no last name given).

The interview you are accessing was done on April 23.
In the interview you cite, he identified all of those kids pictured in the TCM photo from the 1998 yearbook. It appears that the officer did not ask if any of those kids were still TCM or if other people not pictured were TCM. For example, the 1998 picture specifically says, "plus Tad, Alex, Cory" (Tad Boles, Alex Marsh, Cory Friesen] but Sargent doesn't talk about them, just the people actually in the picture. Sargent then names TCM associates, Nate, Nicole, Eric Jackson and Tad. Tad Boles was one of the founding members of the TCM but he'd dropped out at the beginning of the '98-'99 school year and started working.


Yeah, but he also mentions the people he looked to as members. I used Columbine indexed by name which is found at Peter Langmanns site. Also, when I researched that page I didnt find anything.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
thelmar

thelmar


Posts : 760
Contribution Points : 68257
Forum Reputation : 2993
Join date : 2018-07-15

Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine    Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri Aug 21, 2020 2:01 pm

[quote="Norwegian"]Alex Marsh
It doesnt specically suggest that She says that Harris and Klebold is a member.

But the cop specifically asked her "who else" was part of the group beside Eric and Dylan
Alex Marsh pg. 10776
When asked who else was involved in the gang beside Eric HARRIS and Dylan KLEBOLD, she gave the names of: Chris Morris, Nicole Markham, Christine Theibalt, Joe Stair, Krista Hanley, Eric Jackson wrote:

If this isn't confirmation that she either said or implied to the investigator that they were members, what is it? And if they weren't members, why didn't she correct the investigator?
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Norwegian
Top 10 Contributor



Posts : 1130
Contribution Points : 64219
Forum Reputation : 252
Join date : 2018-12-06

Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine    Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri Aug 21, 2020 2:18 pm

thelmar wrote:
Norwegian wrote:
Alex Marsh
It doesnt specically suggest that She says that Harris and Klebold is a member.

It didnt. But you were right in regards to Page 8784. Allthough on my display its on page 8786. I would say the statement is very specific, though

But the cop specifically asked her "who else" was part of the group beside Eric and Dylan
Alex Marsh pg. 10776


If this isn't confirmation that she either said or implied to the investigator that they were members, what is it? And if they weren't members, why didn't she correct the investigator?
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Norwegian
Top 10 Contributor



Posts : 1130
Contribution Points : 64219
Forum Reputation : 252
Join date : 2018-12-06

Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine    Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri Aug 21, 2020 2:19 pm

thelmar wrote:
Norwegian wrote:
Alex Marsh
It doesnt specically suggest that She says that Harris and Klebold is a member.

But the cop specifically asked her "who else" was part of the group beside Eric and Dylan
Alex Marsh pg. 10776


If this isn't confirmation that she either said or implied to the investigator that they were members, what is it? And if they weren't members, why didn't she correct the investigator?

I dont see it as specically aimed at Harris and Klebold. Of Course that question Could also be applied to her. Thats what Im trying to say. But you are correct in regards to Page 8784.


Last edited by Norwegian on Fri Aug 21, 2020 4:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Norwegian
Top 10 Contributor



Posts : 1130
Contribution Points : 64219
Forum Reputation : 252
Join date : 2018-12-06

Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine    Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri Aug 21, 2020 3:26 pm

‘Robert Gene Perry’

‘Perry met Harris and Klebold briefly last year during the latter part of the school year. At the time both were beginning to associate with members of the TCM. Perry did not consider them to be actual members, but both were good friends of TCM- leader Chris Morris.

‘Perry did not consider either Harris or Klebold to be good friends of hes’.

‘Harris was described as an angry bitter person. Like a lot of the other TCM-members, he had been constantly picked on, taunted and had food thrown at him by some of the other students at CHS. Dylan, a follower of Harris, was a lot more easy going’.

‘The last time Parry had any contact with Harris or Dylan was ca January 1999, when he said hi to them outside of the school’.

‘Parrys Family had a computor, but he never communicated with either Harris or Klebold over the internet. Internet provider was ATT worldnet. He spent so much time on the computor that hes parents started restricting hes access to it’.


And Pay specically attention to this, which comes before the statement you mentioned

Robert Perry identified the following people as members of the TCM:

Chris Morris(Leader of the group)

Tadd Boles

Andy Thomas

Horst(A student at Chatfield HS).


Joe Stair

Brian Sargent
Chuck LNU(one of the founders of the group; lived in Golden, Colorado).

Cory Friesen

Eric Jackson

Josh(A friend of Seargent).

Perry and Stair had talked casually in the past about Type A napalm. Neither of them really wanted to make any of it.

Lydie Parry was friends with a lot of the TCMs girlfriends, but was not considered to be a member herself. Lydie attempted on many occasions to talk her girlfriends out of associating with them. Lydie was good friends with Morris’ girlfriend and Could identify a lot of other TCM- members.

And than, this:

‘Robert Perry was asked to describe the Trench Coats that were worn ny the members of the TCM. He provided hes black overcoat and explained the others that had purchased the Western style clothes:

Chris Morris
Tadd Boles
Eric Harris
Joe Stair
Chuck or Charles.
Horst’.

Its very murky. First of all, he mentions and identified the people that he associated as part of the TCM. Eric and and Dylan are not mentioned anywhere on that list. At the same time he doesnt associate Eric nor Dylan as members of the TCM. The name Eric Harris and Dylan pops up.
on a list only when trenchcoats are mentioned.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Norwegian
Top 10 Contributor



Posts : 1130
Contribution Points : 64219
Forum Reputation : 252
Join date : 2018-12-06

Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine    Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri Aug 21, 2020 3:29 pm

‘Robert Gene Perry’

‘Perry met Harris and Klebold briefly last year during the latter part of the school year. At the time both were beginning to associate with members of the TCM. Perry did not consider them to be actual members, but both were good friends of TCM- leader Chris Morris.

‘Perry did not consider either Harris or Klebold to be good friends of hes’.

‘Harris was described as an angry bitter person. Like a lot of the other TCM-members, he had been constantly picked on, taunted and had food thrown at him by some of the other students at CHS. Dylan, a follower of Harris, was a lot more easy going’.

‘The last time Parry had any contact with Harris or Dylan was ca January 1999, when he said hi to them outside of the school’.

‘Parrys Family had a computor, but he never communicated with either Harris or Klebold over the internet. Internet provider was ATT worldnet. He spent so much time on the computor that hes parents started restricting hes access to it’.


And Pay specically attention to this, which comes before the statement you mentioned

Robert Perry identified the following people as members of the TCM:

Chris Morris(Leader of the group)

Tadd Boles

Andy Thomas

Horst(A student at Chatfield HS).


Joe Stair

Brian Sargent
Chuck LNU(one of the founders of the group; lived in Golden, Colorado).

Cory Friesen

Eric Jackson

Josh(A friend of Seargent).

Perry and Stair had talked casually in the past about Type A napalm. Neither of them really wanted to make any of it.

Lydie Parry was friends with a lot of the TCMs girlfriends, but was not considered to be a member herself. Lydie attempted on many occasions to talk her girlfriends out of associating with them. Lydie was good friends with Morris’ girlfriend and Could identify a lot of other TCM- members.

And than, this:

‘Robert Perry was asked to describe the Trench Coats that were worn ny the members of the TCM. He provided hes black overcoat and explained the others that had purchased the Western style clothes:

Chris Morris
Tadd Boles
Eric Harris
Joe Stair
Chuck or Charles.
Horst’.

Its very murky. First of all, he mentions and identified the people that he associated as part of the TCM. Eric and and Dylan are not mentioned anywhere on that list. At the same time he doesnt associate Eric nor Dylan as members of the TCM. The name Eric Harris and Dylan pops up.
on a list only when trenchcoats are mentioned.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Norwegian
Top 10 Contributor



Posts : 1130
Contribution Points : 64219
Forum Reputation : 252
Join date : 2018-12-06

Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine    Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri Aug 21, 2020 4:18 pm

If by 'Chuck' you mean Charles Phillips:


‘Phillips says he watched the news and knew the suspects to be

Eric ‘reb’ and Dylan.

‘When asked how he knew this, Phillips stated that the news identified the suspects as part of the TCM. Eric and Dylan were the only subjects part of that group they Could not locate. Eric and Dylan also attend CHS.

Phillips than provided list of additional members:

Cory Friesen

Chris Morris

Nicole

Eric and Dylan’.

‘Phillips than stated that he graduated from CHS in 1997 and doesnt associate with the group as much. He last saw Eric and Dylan a month ago, when they went bowling’.



‘This investigator asked if there was any significance to todays event. Phillips said he heard it was Hitlers birthday’


OK, there are two major problems with this statement. First of all it seems out of place when he argues that he identified them as members of the TCM simply over watching a Television broadcast. Do you have any other sources here?

Second, the thing about Hitlers birthday was debunked ages ago, and especially early media coverage of the shooting.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Norwegian
Top 10 Contributor



Posts : 1130
Contribution Points : 64219
Forum Reputation : 252
Join date : 2018-12-06

Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine    Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri Aug 21, 2020 5:36 pm

So than we have the interview you referenced at last there. Before I go on, Im going to point out that Joe Stair said Exactly the opposite in another interview, but I get back to this later

‘I then spoke to Joseph Benjamin Stair who was originally contacted by a Jefferson County Sheriffs deputy. Joseph Stair indicated that he is a former member of the TCM. He stated that current members are Christoffer Morris, an individual he knew as Robert, who had bad achne and buck teeth. Another individual he identified as Brian Sargent, Dylan Klebold, who is a friend of Chris Morris. Another individual he knew as Eric, who also was a friend of Chris Morris, who he had only met once. He stated that they did not call themselves the TCM, but called themselves ‘The Trench Coat club’. He indicated that they started wearing Trench coats to ‘piss everyone off’. Iv
Asked Joseph Stair to tell me about the Trench Coat Mafia. He was very hesitant and didnt want to give me information. He indicated that he had  interviewed i7 by law enforcement earlier that day and did not want to provide me with additional information. Again I asked Joseph Stair to tell me about the TCM. He stated that they were Just a group of individuals that played Dungeons and Dragons and did roll playing. He stated that he did not know who the shooters inside CHS were and had not associated with the TCM for quite some time as he had  working and had fell out of contact with them. He did not want to provide me with any additional information’.

OK, so he argues that Dylan Klebold were part of that group. Heres the thing: he says Exactly the opposite in another interview

'As far as the TCM is concerned, Stair stated that he is one of the founders. Stair stated that he, along with Chris Morris, John Beachem, Eric Deutrau and Corey Friezen, started the group around 1994- 1995. Stair stated that  they all shared the same interest in movies, video games and bowling. Stair stated that he met Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold through Chris Morris approximately two years ago. Stair added that he only hung out with Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold occasionally and didnt know them very well outside school. Though Stair stated that he liked video games and has played doom,he also stated that he has nor played any video games with Harris and Klebold.


Stair stated that the last time he saw Harris and Klebold was around December of 1998 around Columbine HS. Stair stated that they were in Klebolds BMW. He talked with them and smoked a  few sigarettes for a while, than left the area. Stair stated that he has not had any contact with them since than.
‘Detective Bell came accross a 1998 CHS yearbook. In the book, Detective Bell found several written messages from various students. One message in particular read ‘Chicos Groove’ and than directly under it  ‘Yo Jo, better than the norm! Jocks suck Dick. TCM! Laterz <<VODKA>>. ‘

Joe Stairs Lie detector test:

‘In discussing the issue around the murder at CHS, the subject stated that the TCM was First started by a group of him and friends, with the original members being  Cory Friesen, Eric Dutro, John Beachem and himself. The subject stated that when this group was initially formed, he did not have a Black Trench Coat but did get one as time went on. The subject described the TCM as a ‘support group’ for the members against other students at school. The subject further  stated that the organization was  developed during hes sophomore year’.
‘The subject stated that he was a senior  at CHS when he initially met Harris and Klebold. The subject stated that he became friends with Klebold, but that Klebold was never part of the TCM. The subject stated that Dylan Klebold never really hung around with the primary members of the TCM, but mostly hung around with Chris Morris.

The subject stated that he First met Eric Harris during hes senior year a short time after he initially met Dylan Klebold. The subject state that he met Harris, who was in the Company of Dylan Klebold at that time. The subject stated that Eric Harris was also not a member of the TCM, and in fact, hung out less with members of the TCM than what Dylan Klebold did. The subject further stated that he did not get to know either one of them really well but would see Harris and Klebold at lunchtime. The subject stated he never got to be good friends with them, and never socialized with them   outside the school.

The subject stated that the last time he saw Eric Harris or Dylan Klebold was six or seven months ago. The subject stated that they were together and parked in Dylan Klebolds car near CHS. The subject stated he was walking to work during that time and observed them parked on the street along with Chris Morris in the car. The subject stated that he hopped in the car during which time they listened to the stereo and caught up on Old times. The subject further stated that he never communicatws with neither Eric Harris or Dylan Klebold by telephone or computor. The subject further added he had no close ties with either Eric Harris or Dylan Klebold.

‘The subject stated that Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold never talked to him about doing anything like they did at CHS. The subject stated that they would say something like ‘Im going to get back at that guy’ or ‘Im going to kill him’, but that this was always stated in a joking manner. The subject further  stated that no one ever seriously said anything about shooting students like they did on April 20th’.

‘The subject stated that on April 20th, 1999,he was at home in the morning and got up around 1100 hours, at which he played video games until hes Sister telephoned home. The subject  stated that hes Sister then adviced him and other Family members of what was taking place at Columbine. The subject stated that hes Sister telephoned their home their home between 11:30 and 12:00 hours and informed them at the time of the armed attack at CHS. The subject stated that hes mother and he watched the event on TV for the next hour with adding that hes mother was in no condition to drive because of this event upsetting her so much. The subject stated that he had no idea who Could be doing this while he was watching the event on TV even though they mentioned the fact that members of the TCM were possibly involved in this incident. The subject further stated that he was completely shocked when he learned that the primarily suspects were Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold. The subject stated that neither Eric Harris or Dylan Klebold ever talked about Guns or making  bombs or explosive devices with him. The subject stated that he personally knew how to make a bomb from several books he obtained in the library  but that he never made one, personally. The subject stated that he has never fired or even held a gun in hes entire life. He also added that he never went with anyone who even practiced shooting Guns’



‘The subject stated that the last time he was on CHS property was two months ago  and that the last time he was in the  school was approx nine months ago. The subject further added that he does not know who Could have helped Eric and Dylan plan out this incident that took place at CHS’.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Norwegian
Top 10 Contributor



Posts : 1130
Contribution Points : 64219
Forum Reputation : 252
Join date : 2018-12-06

Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine    Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri Aug 21, 2020 6:04 pm

I Will trie and look for other interviews, but First, lets examine the dates:

The first interview was carried out 27 of April, right after the shooting. The Second is on Page 10899,and was carried out 13 of May. Thats weeks after the first interview.

I can only speculate why he mentioned Klebold in the 1st interview as being a member of the TCM. But here we see that he statements are different on Apron 27th and on May 13th. I couldnt find any other information for the time being, given that the search engine in the documents isnt cooperative



Back to top Go down
View user profile
thelmar

thelmar


Posts : 760
Contribution Points : 68257
Forum Reputation : 2993
Join date : 2018-07-15

Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine    Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri Aug 21, 2020 6:06 pm

Norwegian wrote:
'Robert Perry was asked to describe the Trench Coats that were worn by the members of the TCM. He provided hes black overcoat and explained the others that had purchased the Western style clothes:
Chris Morris
Tadd Boles
Dylan
Eric Harris
Joe Stair
Chuck or Charles.
Horst’.
Its very murky. First of all, he mentions and identified the people that he associated as part of the TCM. Eric and and Dylan are not mentioned anywhere on that list. At the same time he doesnt associate Eric nor Dylan as members of the TCM. The name Eric Harris and Dylan pops up on a list only when trenchcoats are mentioned.

But their names do pop up, and they do pop up under a statement about "Trench Coats that were worn by members of the TCM." I think you are beginning to see what I am saying. How can anything about whether they were members or not be debunked, when statements like this exist? It can't be dismissed out of hand that Eric and Dylan weren't members when so many of the TCM said they were, regardless of how vehemently or not they stood beside their statements.

With regard to Tad Boles:
Norwegian wrote:
OK, there are two major problems with this statement. First of all it seems out of place when he argues that he identified them as members of the TCM simply over watching a Television broadcast. Do you have any other sources here?

Second, the thing about Hitlers birthday was debunked ages ago, and especially early media coverage of the shooting.

Not sure I understand your first question. The way I read this is, he heard on the news that the people doing the shooting were TCM. He checked in with all of the people he knew who were members of the TCM, and the only members of the TCM he could not locate/ get in touch with were Eric and Dylan. Because of this, he inferred that Eric and Dylan were the ones perpetrating the attack.
In his statement he said that Harris and Klebold joined the TCM in 1997. Boles no longer went to Columbine and was at home asleep when the attack started because he had worked the night shift. No one was with him, as far as I can glean from his statement. He says that Brian Sargent came over to his house around noon but doesn't say if Sargent is the one who informed him of what was going on at the school or if he was already aware of it by the time Sargent got to his house. He also mentions that Chris Morris had paged him because he was worried when he couldn't find Nicole Markham, but he doesn't say what time Chris paged him or if Chris was the first to tell him of the attack.

As to your second statement, Boles got several things wrong in his statement. He said Morris was out sick from Columbine that day (he wasn't, he was in school through 3rd hour, skipped his 4th hour Choir and had lunch 5th hour). Boles said Sargent heard about the shooting on the news (he didn't; according to Frank Zirger, who went to lunch with Sargent that day, they tried coming back to school and couldn't get there. A cop told them what was going on). These are just a few examples.

Norwegian wrote:
OK, so he argues that Dylan Klebold were part of that group. Heres the thing: he says Exactly the opposite in another interview
I was just going to post this. I was searching the 11k to see if I could confirm that the Eric he was talking about in the interview I posted earlier was Eric Harris or if it was instead Eric Jackson or Eric Dutro and I came across this.
I wonder why on 4/20 he said they were members but on 5/14 said they were not.
To me this only adds to the "murkiness" of whether or not they were members, it doesn't support a debunking of it.

Back to top Go down
View user profile
Norwegian
Top 10 Contributor



Posts : 1130
Contribution Points : 64219
Forum Reputation : 252
Join date : 2018-12-06

Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine    Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri Aug 21, 2020 7:14 pm

thelmar wrote:
Norwegian wrote:
'Robert Perry was asked to describe the Trench Coats that were worn by the members of the TCM. He provided hes black overcoat and explained the others that had purchased the Western style clothes:
Chris Morris
Tadd Boles
Dylan
Eric Harris
Joe Stair
Chuck or Charles.
Horst’.
Its very murky. First of all, he mentions and identified the people that he associated as part of the TCM. Eric and and Dylan are not mentioned anywhere on that list. At the same time he doesnt associate Eric nor Dylan as members of the TCM. The name Eric Harris and Dylan pops up on a list only when trenchcoats are mentioned.

But their names do pop up, and they do pop up under a statement about "Trench Coats that were worn by members of the TCM." I think you are beginning to see what I am saying. How can anything about whether they were members or not be debunked, when statements like this exist? It can't be dismissed out of hand that Eric and Dylan weren't members when so many of the TCM said they were, regardless of how vehemently or not they stood beside their statements.  

With regard to Tad Boles:
Norwegian wrote:
OK, there are two major problems with this statement. First of all it seems out of place when he argues that he identified them as members of the TCM simply over watching a Television broadcast. Do you have any other sources here?

Second, the thing about Hitlers birthday was debunked ages ago, and especially early media coverage of the shooting.

Not sure I understand your first question. The way I read this is, he heard on the news that the people doing the shooting were TCM. He checked in with all of the people he knew who were members of the TCM, and the only members of the TCM he could not locate/ get in touch with were Eric and Dylan. Because of this, he inferred that Eric and Dylan were the ones perpetrating the attack.
In his statement he said that Harris and Klebold joined the TCM in 1997. Boles no longer went to Columbine and was at home asleep when the attack started because he had worked the night shift. No one was with him, as far as I can glean from his statement. He says that Brian Sargent came over to his house around noon but doesn't say if Sargent is the one who informed him of what was going on at the school or if he was already aware of it by the time Sargent got to his house. He also mentions that Chris Morris had paged him because he was worried when he couldn't find Nicole Markham, but he doesn't say what time Chris paged him or if Chris was the first to tell him of the attack.

As to your second statement, Boles got several things wrong in his statement. He said Morris was out sick from Columbine that day (he wasn't, he was in school through 3rd hour, skipped his 4th hour Choir and had lunch 5th hour). Boles said Sargent heard about the shooting on the news (he didn't; according to Frank Zirger, who went to lunch with Sargent that day, they tried coming back to school and couldn't get there. A cop told them what was going on). These are just a few examples.

Norwegian wrote:
OK, so he argues that Dylan Klebold were part of that group. Heres the thing: he says Exactly the opposite in another interview
I was just going to post this. I was searching the 11k to see if I could confirm that the Eric he was talking about in the interview I posted earlier was Eric Harris or if it was instead Eric Jackson or Eric Dutro and I came across this.
I wonder why on 4/20 he said they were members but on 5/14 said they were not.
To me this only adds to the "murkiness" of whether or not they were members, it doesn't support a debunking of it.


Besides the point. The point is that Just because someone said so, that doesnt mean the statement is correct.
IDK why I have to keep repeating this, but I know for a fact that when people are convinced that they are right they are not as willing to accept the fact that they might be wrong. Yes, there are statements here and there, linking Eric and Dylan to TCM. Guess, what? Theres also tons of other questionable statements in the same Document that are equally questionable.  But one can ask yourselves this: of Course we can all twist and turn this interview  to fit our own narrative such as 'he probably did check on the guys to see if they were part of the TCM' - group or he Just picked it up from the television screen and assumed from there. But would I find an interview that talks about the attack as having anything to do with Hitlers birthday reliable? No. And neither should anyone for that matter. So the statements comes up in the Document and how Come they have been later debunked? What makes you so sure that this wasnt because they did not have all the information back than they do now and thats why they are there? But anyways; the point still stands. Just because you have read something in the 11 K documents it doesnt mean that its true. We have been through this. And I sincerely do not want to repeat this a thrillion times. There are plenty of unreliable statements in that Document, and that is a fact. You can like it or not like it, but its a fact.


The one interview that you Just now admitted wasnt reliable, was Exactly the same interview that you provided in the first place to suggest that you can find support for both views. You can, but it doesnt mean that they are reliable. Nor does it mean that they accurate. You can find support for all kinds of views in these documents. The facts are the facts regardless. And in that process one cannot be biased.


No, but it does confirm why taking statements at face value isnt something one should do.


Last edited by Norwegian on Fri Aug 21, 2020 7:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Norwegian
Top 10 Contributor



Posts : 1130
Contribution Points : 64219
Forum Reputation : 252
Join date : 2018-12-06

Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine    Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri Aug 21, 2020 7:20 pm

The point is that you provided sources where several of those statements did not confirm your point of view. And I want people to see the totality of those statements, because taken out of context they can look like anything. And when you said 'clearly stated'. Turns out that wasnt so clear after all
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Norwegian
Top 10 Contributor



Posts : 1130
Contribution Points : 64219
Forum Reputation : 252
Join date : 2018-12-06

Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine    Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri Aug 21, 2020 7:46 pm

Peter Langmann

‘Occasional citatuons are followed by qs, indicating that it is a questionable source. This may be because the person has provided questionable testimony in other areas(see my article The search for truth at Columbine’, for example) or the information provided is at odds with what is known from more reliable sources. A few citations are followed by (?), meaning I have doubts about the information provided. It is important to remember that Just because something that doesnt mean its true,especially when withnesses passed on information they heard from their friends and did not know firsthand. The attack at Columbine generated many rumours, some outright lies and much of inaccurate or biased information’.

Source: JSCO by theme.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
thelmar

thelmar


Posts : 760
Contribution Points : 68257
Forum Reputation : 2993
Join date : 2018-07-15

Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine    Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri Aug 21, 2020 8:47 pm

Norwegian wrote:
The point is that you provided sources where several of those statements did not confirm your point of view. And I want people to see the totality of those statements, because taken out of context they can look like anything. And when you said 'clearly stated'. Turns out that wasnt so clear after all

My engagement in this thread began in response to your quoting the source that said TCM members had come forward to refute they were members and newspapers had confirmed it, therefore, the idea that Eric and Dylan were TCM members had been debunked. I pointed to all these sources to question how they could confirm it when all of these statements exist that are contrary to that. You seem to be under the impression that I am firmly in the camp that Eric and Dylan were in the TCM just because I posted statements from TCM members who said they were. And you seem to think I was intentionally ignoring the people who said they weren't to strengthen my position.

My point of view is that the statement that Eric and Dylan being TCM was debunked is inaccurate.
My point of view is that there are witness statements saying yes they were, and witness statements saying no they were not. Some of those yes and no answers did come from the same people, which makes things even more confusing. I didn't know about Stair's change of testimony until I kept digging to see if the "Eric" he referred to could have been Eric Dutro or Eric Jackson, who also hung around the TCM.
My point of view is with witness statements on both sides of the argument, there is no way of knowing what is true without direct evidence from Eric or Dylan regarding their feelings on the matter. Which we do not have.
I have said these same things throughout the thread. Maybe it was overlooked because I'm wordy, but it's in there.
I don't know if they were in the TCM. I don't believe it can be determined based upon the evidence we have, and if it can't be determined I don't believe it can be debunked.



Back to top Go down
View user profile
thelmar

thelmar


Posts : 760
Contribution Points : 68257
Forum Reputation : 2993
Join date : 2018-07-15

Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine    Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri Aug 21, 2020 8:57 pm

Norwegian wrote:

Besides the point. The point is that Just because someone said so, that doesnt mean the statement is correct.
IDK why I have to keep repeating this, but I know for a fact that when people are convinced that they are right they are not as willing to accept the fact that they might be wrong. Yes, there are statements here and there, linking Eric and Dylan to TCM. Guess, what? Theres also tons of other questionable statements in the same Document that are equally questionable.  
Just because you have read something in the 11 K documents it doesnt mean that its true. We have been through this. And I sincerely do not want to repeat this a thrillion times. There are plenty of unreliable statements in that Document, and that is a fact. You can like it or not like it, but its a fact.

No, but it does confirm why taking statements at face value isnt something one should do.

Please show me where I said that we have to take everything we read in the 11k at face value and accept that it is undeniably true.
Please show me where I said that every witness is reliable and every witness tells the truth.
There are people in the 11k who said Eric and Dylan were TCM. There are people in the 11k who said they are not. If both sets of people exist, how do we know who is right?
This is what I have tried to address. We can't know who is right, therefore we can't make a decision one way or the other. Therefore, definitively debunking their TCM membership cannot be done. The only ones who knew are Eric and Dylan and they are dead.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Norwegian
Top 10 Contributor



Posts : 1130
Contribution Points : 64219
Forum Reputation : 252
Join date : 2018-12-06

Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine    Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri Aug 21, 2020 9:19 pm

thelmar wrote:
Norwegian wrote:
The point is that you provided sources where several of those statements did not confirm your point of view. And I want people to see the totality of those statements, because taken out of context they can look like anything. And when you said 'clearly stated'. Turns out that wasnt so clear after all

My engagement in this thread began in response to your quoting the source that said TCM members had come forward to refute they were members and newspapers had confirmed it, therefore, the idea that Eric and Dylan were TCM members had been debunked. I pointed to all these sources to question how they could confirm it when all of these statements exist that are contrary to that. You seem to be under the impression that I am firmly in the camp that Eric and Dylan were in the TCM just because I posted statements from TCM members who said they were. And you seem to think I was intentionally ignoring the people who said they weren't to strengthen my position.

My point of view is that the statement that Eric and Dylan being TCM was debunked is inaccurate.
My point of view is that there are witness statements saying yes they were, and witness statements saying no they were not. Some of those yes and no answers did come from the same people, which makes things even more confusing. I didn't know about Stair's change of testimony until I kept digging to see if the "Eric" he referred to could have been Eric Dutro or Eric Jackson, who also hung around the TCM.
My point of view is with witness statements on both sides of the argument, there is no way of knowing what is true without direct evidence from Eric or Dylan regarding their feelings on the matter. Which we do not have.
I have said these same things throughout the thread. Maybe it was overlooked because I'm wordy, but it's in there.
I don't know if they were in the TCM. I don't believe it can be determined based upon the evidence we have, and if it can't be determined I don't believe it can be debunked.




Very much by the way you address your argument, you seem to have a problem with wanting to believe that they were part of the TCM. Even if you say that you are fence sitting, much of the way you express yourselves seems to me like a form of bias. It seems to me more to ne like you are convinced than actually fence sitting
Also, you provided sources which clearly were not evidence to back up your claim. Wether or not they were part of the TCM is not the point. The point is that you cannot provide sources that doesnt confirm that you are right. You also cannot treat these sources without caution.

Well, even if there are withness statements, we cannot rely on them to be correct. Like I said- and I say it again--the fact that there are withnes- statement isnt good enough. So if something has to be considered debunked, it has to Come from an account or source of information that is actually reliable source of information. Period. There are lots of information in that Document that is not reliable.


Back to top Go down
View user profile
Norwegian
Top 10 Contributor



Posts : 1130
Contribution Points : 64219
Forum Reputation : 252
Join date : 2018-12-06

Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine    Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri Aug 21, 2020 9:41 pm

thelmar wrote:
Norwegian wrote:

Besides the point. The point is that Just because someone said so, that doesnt mean the statement is correct.
IDK why I have to keep repeating this, but I know for a fact that when people are convinced that they are right they are not as willing to accept the fact that they might be wrong. Yes, there are statements here and there, linking Eric and Dylan to TCM. Guess, what? Theres also tons of other questionable statements in the same Document that are equally questionable.  
Just because you have read something in the 11 K documents it doesnt mean that its true. We have been through this. And I sincerely do not want to repeat this a thrillion times. There are plenty of unreliable statements in that Document, and that is a fact. You can like it or not like it, but its a fact.

No, but it does confirm why taking statements at face value isnt something one should do.

Please show me where I said that we have to take everything we read in the 11k at face value and accept that it is undeniably true.
Please show me where I said that every witness is reliable and every witness tells the truth.
There are people in the 11k who said Eric and Dylan were TCM. There are people in the 11k who said they are not. If both sets of people exist, how do we know who is right?
This is what I have tried to address. We can't know who is right, therefore we can't make a decision one way or the other. Therefore, definitively debunking their TCM membership cannot be done. The only ones who knew are Eric and Dylan and they are dead.  

Well, didnt you actually proove it? By saying that we cannot automatically dismiss or debunk the TCM- narrative because some statements suggest that they were? For which I agree, but honestly, again, this is Where source criticism comes in. Didnt you also say that we should trust these statements because people knew them? And, again, no. And what makes you so sure we cant verify whos correct or not? Are you really 100% sure that this is true?

Now, do I have to repeat myself over and over? Even if someone said that they were in the TCM that doesnt mean that they are right. Even if you think that they said this, that doesnt make it true either. And even if that person stated once that Harris and Klebold were part of the TCM, does that mean that they Will say the same thing in another source? No, we Just went through this.

Im going to give Rita Gleasons book a chance, but Im going to go through it with a lot of scepticism and critical thinking . Given both what Langmann has stated and what Acolumbinesite has stated. I dont like to speculate and I avoid confirmation bias as much as possible, especially with cases like These. Its a book that deserves a heavy amount of fact checking, truth be told
Back to top Go down
View user profile
thelmar

thelmar


Posts : 760
Contribution Points : 68257
Forum Reputation : 2993
Join date : 2018-07-15

Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine    Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri Aug 21, 2020 10:11 pm

Norwegian wrote:
thelmar wrote:
Norwegian wrote:

Besides the point. The point is that Just because someone said so, that doesnt mean the statement is correct.
IDK why I have to keep repeating this, but I know for a fact that when people are convinced that they are right they are not as willing to accept the fact that they might be wrong. Yes, there are statements here and there, linking Eric and Dylan to TCM. Guess, what? Theres also tons of other questionable statements in the same Document that are equally questionable.  
Just because you have read something in the 11 K documents it doesnt mean that its true. We have been through this. And I sincerely do not want to repeat this a thrillion times. There are plenty of unreliable statements in that Document, and that is a fact. You can like it or not like it, but its a fact.

No, but it does confirm why taking statements at face value isnt something one should do.

Please show me where I said that we have to take everything we read in the 11k at face value and accept that it is undeniably true.
Please show me where I said that every witness is reliable and every witness tells the truth.
There are people in the 11k who said Eric and Dylan were TCM. There are people in the 11k who said they are not. If both sets of people exist, how do we know who is right?
This is what I have tried to address. We can't know who is right, therefore we can't make a decision one way or the other. Therefore, definitively debunking their TCM membership cannot be done. The only ones who knew are Eric and Dylan and they are dead.  

Well, didnt you actually proove it? By saying that we cannot automatically dismiss or debunk the TCM- narrative because some statements suggest that they were? For which I agree, but honestly, again, this is Where source criticism comes in. Didnt you also say that we should trust these statements because people knew them? And, again, no. And what makes you so sure we cant verify whos correct or not? Are you really 100% sure that this is true?

Now, do I have to repeat myself over and over? Even if someone said that they were in the TCM that doesnt mean that they are right. Even if you think that they said this, that doesnt make it true either. And even if that person stated once that Harris and Klebold were part of the TCM, does that mean that they Will say the same thing in another source? No, we Just went through this.

Im going to give Rita Gleasons book a chance, but Im going to go through it with a lot of scepticism and critical thinking . Given both what Langmann has stated and what Acolumbinesite has stated. I dont like to speculate and I avoid confirmation bias as much as possible, especially with cases like These. Its a book that deserves a heavy amount of fact checking, truth be told

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. It almost sounds like we agree and then it doesn't. Yes, my point is there is so much information on both sides of the argument. Some of it may be accurate, some of it may not be. There's no way to know so how can we make a decision either way? And for a newspaper or journalist to say the decision has been made, I ask, how? What information do they have that isn't already out there and how does that information settle all these contradictory statements and outweigh what we know?
I didn't say we should blindly trust these statements. I said these are statements are made by people who knew them. We have no way of fact checking them, the statements just are what they are. There are also statements from the people who knew them who said they weren't TCM. And those statements can't be fact checked either, they just are what they are. So how does a newspaper debunk it? For example, should we believe the statement from 4/20 or the statement from a few weeks later?

You should give everything you read a heavy amount of fact checking, especially in this case. I don't agree with absolutely everything in Gleason's book, either (off the top of my head, I think she's mistaken when she said the bodies were moved before the death photo was taken). But because she does put in citations for most of the things she talks about, it does make it easier to look more deeply into something you read about and I can appreciate the transparency as opposed to other books that make statements and you have no idea where to look to confirm them.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Norwegian
Top 10 Contributor



Posts : 1130
Contribution Points : 64219
Forum Reputation : 252
Join date : 2018-12-06

Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine    Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri Aug 21, 2020 10:20 pm

thelmar wrote:
Norwegian wrote:
thelmar wrote:
Norwegian wrote:

Besides the point. The point is that Just because someone said so, that doesnt mean the statement is correct.
IDK why I have to keep repeating this, but I know for a fact that when people are convinced that they are right they are not as willing to accept the fact that they might be wrong. Yes, there are statements here and there, linking Eric and Dylan to TCM. Guess, what? Theres also tons of other questionable statements in the same Document that are equally questionable.  
Just because you have read something in the 11 K documents it doesnt mean that its true. We have been through this. And I sincerely do not want to repeat this a thrillion times. There are plenty of unreliable statements in that Document, and that is a fact. You can like it or not like it, but its a fact.

No, but it does confirm why taking statements at face value isnt something one should do.

Please show me where I said that we have to take everything we read in the 11k at face value and accept that it is undeniably true.
Please show me where I said that every witness is reliable and every witness tells the truth.
There are people in the 11k who said Eric and Dylan were TCM. There are people in the 11k who said they are not. If both sets of people exist, how do we know who is right?
This is what I have tried to address. We can't know who is right, therefore we can't make a decision one way or the other. Therefore, definitively debunking their TCM membership cannot be done. The only ones who knew are Eric and Dylan and they are dead.  

Well, didnt you actually proove it? By saying that we cannot automatically dismiss or debunk the TCM- narrative because some statements suggest that they were? For which I agree, but honestly, again, this is Where source criticism comes in. Didnt you also say that we should trust these statements because people knew them? And, again, no. And what makes you so sure we cant verify whos correct or not? Are you really 100% sure that this is true?

Now, do I have to repeat myself over and over? Even if someone said that they were in the TCM that doesnt mean that they are right. Even if you think that they said this, that doesnt make it true either. And even if that person stated once that Harris and Klebold were part of the TCM, does that mean that they Will say the same thing in another source? No, we Just went through this.

Im going to give Rita Gleasons book a chance, but Im going to go through it with a lot of scepticism and critical thinking . Given both what Langmann has stated and what Acolumbinesite has stated. I dont like to speculate and I avoid confirmation bias as much as possible, especially with cases like These. Its a book that deserves a heavy amount of fact checking, truth be told

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. It almost sounds like we agree and then it doesn't. Yes, my point is there is so much information on both sides of the argument. Some of it may be accurate, some of it may not be. There's no way to know so how can we make a decision either way? And for a newspaper or journalist to say the decision has been made, I ask, how? What information do they have that isn't already out there and how does that information settle all these contradictory statements and outweigh what we know?
I didn't say we should blindly trust these statements. I said these are statements are made by people who knew them. We have no way of fact checking them, the statements just are what they are. There are also statements from the people who knew them who said they weren't TCM. And those statements can't be fact checked either, they just are what they are. So how does a newspaper debunk it? For example, should we believe the statement from 4/20 or the statement from a few weeks later?

You should give everything you read a heavy amount of fact checking, especially in this case. I don't agree with absolutely everything in Gleason's book, either (off the top of my head, I think she's mistaken when she said the bodies were moved before the death photo was taken). But because she does put in citations for most of the things she talks about, it does make it easier to look more deeply into something you read about and I can appreciate the transparency as opposed to other books that make statements and you have no idea where to look to confirm them.


No, but I definately think its possible to identify was is most likely reliable.

Yes, and thats a good thing. But I have to say, the book allready does seem very biased imo. So its a good thing that she provided sources for this book.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Ligeya




Posts : 204
Contribution Points : 27999
Forum Reputation : 53
Join date : 2020-05-06

Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine    Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri Aug 21, 2020 10:51 pm

Ok, one little question. Why Eric called Hitmen for Hire a Trench Coat Mafia project, if he wasnt a member of TCM?
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Norwegian
Top 10 Contributor



Posts : 1130
Contribution Points : 64219
Forum Reputation : 252
Join date : 2018-12-06

Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine    Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSat Aug 22, 2020 5:56 am

Ligeya wrote:
Ok, one little question. Why Eric called Hitmen for Hire a Trench Coat Mafia project, if he wasnt a member of TCM?

Where did Eric say that it was a TCM-production?
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Sponsored content





Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine    Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine  - Page 2 Icon_minitime

Back to top Go down
 
Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine
Back to top 
Page 2 of 3Go to page : Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
 Similar topics
-
» Columbine student 2000 saying he wants to "repeat columbine"
» Why Columbine?
» First day and last day of columbine 98-99
» Columbine what if
» Causes of columbine

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
Columbine High School Massacre Discussion Forum :: Columbine High School Massacre Discussion Forum :: Thoughts on the Shooting-
Jump to: