[[

Overall, I agree. He must have hated Nancy for bringing him into the world and imposing her love upon him. I don’t think he killed her out of mercy.

emanresu wrote:

to him, all existences are meaningless if they involve indoctrination, which is what all humans live by, but not chimps, which is why he wished he was a chimp

Or he saw no value in artificial meanings provided by culture. Like, maybe a chimp’s existence is just as meaningless, but at least the chimp does not try to invent a system of beliefs and values for other chimps to be indoctrinated into.

emanresu wrote:

He very well knew that good things don't last and death is inevitable--so why bother with joy? This is something he expressed in a Columbine forum post.

If that’s the post I’m thinking about, Adam did not even see any good in the little inconsequential things most people consider good.

emanresu wrote:

And mass murdering innocent children is one of the most brutal things anybody could do--therefore, if he had to die, why not set things even?

I’m uncertain as to whether he targeted an elementary school simply to reduce the likelihood of getting jumped or because killing children is “worse” by society’s standards than killing adults (no one cares about adults). Maybe it was both. I highly doubt Adam himself believed it to be worse, though.

Was it Matthew Lysiak who insisted that Adam was a psychopath? IIRC it was him, but maybe I’m wrong. Either way, his book is full of misinformation.

We can only presume and presume why he did this, but it's quite impressive that he had almost everything an average person could only dream for (a nice house, a great amount of money (THANKS PETER!), a loving overprotective mom, an opportunity to play DDR for 10 hours) and just threw it away.

emanresu wrote:

It's clear that Adam hated humanity, and perceived that simply being alive is all it took to become a slave to civilisation and its enculturation. It's clear that he felt existential crises in the most acute levels, and he wanted to die to escape this meaningless existence (to him, all existences are meaningless if they involve indoctrination, which is what all humans live by, but not chimps, which is why he wished he was a chimp). He very well knew that good things don't last and death is inevitable--so why bother with joy? This is something he expressed in a Columbine forum post.

But the reason he didn't simply commit suicide is because if he did so, not only would his legacy be met with grief (which is something he didn't want since he hated intimacy), but doing so would mean that life and civilisation itself accomplished in taking him--he would've lost, and life would've won. I feel like his existential crises properly cropped up during his st rose of lima days (when he was 13 or 14) when he wrote in an angry essay that the school was a religious cult, and his outlook on life just worsened from there, but that's unconfirmed. Contrary to popular belief, Adam wasn't a psychopath--he was able to feel sadness and empathy to the highest levels, but only for himself as well as beings he sympathised with (largely just chimps and people who he perceived as abused). At the end of his life, the person he felt most sorry for was himself, and he couldn't possibly let life just spit him out due to his own suicide after it had chewed him up for the past 20 years. If he had to go out, he would have to do it in the most brutal and the most evil and incomprehensible way--in a way which absolutely no one would have the position to defend him. It's his way of retaliating against ever being born. And mass murdering innocent children is one of the most brutal things anybody could do--therefore, if he had to die, why not set things even?, and show the whole world just how much you hated and never asked to be born.

I could certainly see Lanza resenting the thought of people grieving over him if he just went for suicide. That's actually something I've thought about when I've felt suicidal, people I don't want grieving for me grieving for me lol. I honestly don't think there's much reason to debate why he might have wanted to die, considering his life was pretty miserable by all accounts, his physical condition was decaying, he was isolated but incapable of reaching out, the feeling of being trapped in a coercive society that permeates all areas of life... Even his all-consuming interest was becoming boring to him.

It has crossed my mind before that he chose young children as a target so people wouldn't defend him. He was fully aware that mass shooters often gather a fanbase and are viewed as these troubled loners who just needed help - something Lanza would have absolutely loathed being applied to him. That may have been why he tried to wipe as much information about him as possible, too. To clear anything that might make cast him in a humanising or empathetic light. He despised society and he wanted society to despise him just as much. Anything remotely humanising for him would have been like an insult.

majipan wrote:

I could certainly see Lanza resenting the thought of people grieving over him if he just went for suicide. That's actually something I've thought about when I've felt suicidal, people I don't want grieving for me grieving for me lol.

Lol, as weird as it may sound, this is one of the things that unfailingly make me stop feeling suicidal. And no, not because I’m a very kind and empathetic person who cares deeply about her friends and relatives and does not want them to be grieving and hurt. I mean, it should be like that, but instead I’m disgusted by the mental image of anyone grieving for me and saying all the sentimental BS that is usually said about dead people. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] Maybe I’m just permanently stuck in my edgy teen phase.

As for Lanza, I cannot read minds, but I’m sure he would hate something like “oh that’s so tragic, he could have gotten help” to be said about him. Here’s what he had to say about “getting help”:

Quote :

What is "chemical imbalance" even supposed to mean? Why don't hunter-gatherers need antidepressants? I swear, a psychiatrist could take a perfectly fine chimpanzee away from its jungle, confine it in captivity, and when the chimp gets depressed, they would say, "This chimpanzee has a chemical imbalance. What? A correlation between enculturation and depression? But culture brings us meaning and beauty. Get out of my way, caveman wannabe. I need to prescribe this chimp some Xanax".

However, I’m absolutely not sure if there’s anything more to his choice of victims other than small kids being physically weak. Getting quickly overpowered and put into prison or a mental institution certainly was not in his plans, and he must have thought about it a lot with his anxiety.

morgenroede wrote:

Lol, as weird as it may sound, this is one of the things that unfailingly make me stop feeling suicidal. And no, not because I’m a very kind and empathetic person who cares deeply about her friends and relatives and does not want them to be grieving and hurt. I mean, it should be like that, but instead I’m disgusted by the mental image of anyone grieving for me and saying all the sentimental BS that is usually said about dead people. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] Maybe I’m just permanently stuck in my edgy teen phase.

I despise funerals. Sentimental BS is the best way to sum them up. Just the thought of my funeral and people crying over this idea of me that isn't close to reality is enough to make me want to live out of spite lol.

morgenroede wrote:

However, I’m absolutely not sure if there’s anything more to his choice of victims other than small kids being physically weak. Getting quickly overpowered and put into prison or a mental institution certainly was not in his plans, and he must have thought about it a lot with his anxiety.

Yeah their weakness is probably a large part of it at least, since he was almost certainly paranoid about being taken alive since life in prison would be a fate worse than death for Adam. IIRC didn't he basically show no hesitation in shooting himself after a couple test shots?

It's tempting to read a lot into why he picked young kids because it does make it all the more shocking, but it may well have just been because it would be impossible for him to be overpowered. I don't think it's really connected to the primitivism or pedophilia like a lot of people claim, but maybe my idea is reading too much into things too.

emanresu wrote:

It's clear that Adam hated humanity, and perceived that simply being alive is all it took to become a slave to civilisation and its enculturation. It's clear that he felt existential crises in the most acute levels, and he wanted to die to escape this meaningless existence (to him, all existences are meaningless if they involve indoctrination, which is what all humans live by, but not chimps, which is why he wished he was a chimp). He very well knew that good things don't last and death is inevitable--so why bother with joy? This is something he expressed in a Columbine forum post.

But the reason he didn't simply commit suicide is because if he did so, not only would his legacy be met with grief (which is something he didn't want since he hated intimacy), but doing so would mean that life and civilisation itself accomplished in taking him--he would've lost, and life would've won. I feel like his existential crises properly cropped up during his st rose of lima days (when he was 13 or 14) when he wrote in an angry essay that the school was a religious cult, and his outlook on life just worsened from there, but that's unconfirmed. Contrary to popular belief, Adam wasn't a psychopath--he was able to feel sadness and empathy to the highest levels, but only for himself as well as beings he sympathised with (largely just chimps and people who he perceived as abused). At the end of his life, the person he felt most sorry for was himself, and he couldn't possibly let life just spit him out due to his own suicide after it had chewed him up for the past 20 years. If he had to go out, he would have to do it in the most brutal and the most evil and incomprehensible way--in a way which absolutely no one would have the position to defend him. It's his way of retaliating against ever being born. And mass murdering innocent children is one of the most brutal things anybody could do--therefore, if he had to die, why not set things even?, and show the whole world just how much you hated and never asked to be born.

I agree with your points, but I feel there is an important part that you have not mentioned.

To sum it up:
1. Adam hated humanity or at least the society he lived in. Yep, agreed. That's why he was able to identify with E&D, with my two fictional shooters or the fictional shooters from "Zero Day" or with R.Farley.
2. At the end of his life, the person he felt most sorry for was himself. Very valid interpretation, we can't know for sure but this theory makes a lot of sense and I'd agree.
3. he would have to do it in the most brutal and the most evil and incomprehensible way. Yes, he certainly wanted to go out in a way that would cause as much pain and suffering to the society he lived in. I think he would subscribe to Eric's comment of: "I will choose to kill and damage as much as nature allows me"

So, what do I think is missing? I would add the following points:
1B. Unlike E&D and many other shooters, Adam actually considered himself both a product and a victim of the society he grew up in. I think it is most clear when he talks about Travis. I think by blaming Travis's caretaker, he was indirectly blaming Nancy. This is also imho the reason he killed Nancy - he considered her a part (maybe even the main part?) of what made him who he was.
3B. He "didn't want to just fade away" without anyone noticing. I believe this was the additional reason behind his choice to attack small children and cause as much pain&suffering as he could. He wanted to make a loud enough "bang" so people would notice that he killed himself.
4. Adam did suffer from mental illness, which was the reason why he was unable to connect with his society to begin with. His illness seems to have gotten worse with time, including psychotic episodes and his phobia of sunlight. He wasn't getting the treatment and diagnosis he needed, because Nancy pulled him out each time she felt like he would get a "serious" diagnosis. The "light treatment" he received up till then was ineffective.
5. There is also the issue of Adam's sexuality, which might or might not be connected to his mental illness. It seems that Adam had pedophile and/or homosexual urges and this seems to have further alienated him.

.

.

Mr Bubbless wrote:

When I die, don't waste ten grand on an ostentatious funeral, just throw me in the trash.

Cremation rulez!

I couldn't care less how people would conduct my funeral when I die.

They might have a private ceremony for 2 people. Or they can invite 300 participants to a great show with bishops, ponies, rodeo clowns and topless go-go girls. I don't care.

emanresu wrote:

Yeah, I don't encourage either outlet at all, but I could see why he felt that way. The thing is, I didn't realise just how much killing small children would prevent grief for somebody until I started comparing. Dylan Klebold did what he did and yet his mother wrote the whole book talking about him in the same sentimental compassionate ways any other mother would do for their child. But Adam doing what he did--not an ounce of grief was commemorated by anybody in existence. Not one person on earth has ever taken their time out to stand up for him. The closest thing to it was when one of his university classmates said that he was "levels smarter than everyone else" but that wasn't grief, that's just facts. His brother purportedly said that he will always miss him and love him, yet that was found out to be from a fake social media profile. The only words his brother ever uttered to the media was "No comment." Even Stephen paddock's brother grieved for Stephen so lovingly--adam's father wished his son was never born. This is exactly what Adam wanted, which is why I stand by the theory of his aversion to intimacy was present even at death.

It's kind of ridiculous IMO, something like Columbine was just as cold blooded as Sandy Hook I think, and it's not like Eric or Dylan were exclusively shooting fully grown adults either. This makes me wonder what Nancy would have said if Adam didn't kill her but still went through with the massacre. Most likely we wouldn't know because she wouldn't say anything publicly, but it's still an interesting thing to think about.

emanresu wrote:

Dylan Klebold did what he did and yet his mother wrote the whole book talking about him in the same sentimental compassionate ways any other mother would do for their child. But Adam doing what he did--not an ounce of grief was commemorated by anybody in existence.

How do you think Nancy would have reacted if Adam didn't kill her?

emanresu wrote:

Not one person on earth has ever taken their time out to stand up for him. .

Suprisingly certain parents of murdered children (at least Alyssa Parker and Scarlett Lewis from what I know) told they were feeling sorry for him.

emanresu wrote:

adam's father wished his son was never born

Yeah and he said that he can’t mourn Adam for the child he once was.

Also, according to Greg Zanis (the guy who made the 15 crosses for Columbine), Eric and Dylan were someone’s children too and deserve forgiveness, but Adam -

Quote :

“This guy goes straight to hell and burns for eternity. And I believe he is getting his just punishment.”

Honestly it’s crazy how different is the reaction of most people when the victims are small kids vs when they are adults or even older teenagers. Probably because children are innocent angels incapable of doing evil things like animal cruelty and murder, and everyone knows that Ted Bundy, Hitler and Satan were adults from the day they were born.

(well, maybe that’s true about Satan... )

morgenroede wrote:

emanresu wrote:

adam's father wished his son was never born

Yeah and he said that he can’t mourn Adam for the child he once was.

Also, according to Greg Zanis (the guy who made the 15 crosses for Columbine), Eric and Dylan were someone’s children too and deserve forgiveness, but Adam -

Quote :

“This guy goes straight to hell and burns for eternity. And I believe he is getting his just punishment.”

Honestly it’s crazy how different is the reaction of most people when the victims are small kids vs when they are adults or even older teenagers. Probably because children are innocent angels incapable of doing evil things like animal cruelty and murder, and everyone knows that Ted Bundy, Hitler and Satan were adults from the day they were born.

(well, maybe that’s true about Satan... )

I can understand Adam's pain caused by his general detachment from the world around him, his isolation and mental illness. Still, all of that doesn't really make me feel sorry for him. It would be the same if he decided to kill adults.
I guess the most I can say is that I'm sorry he had chosen this path.

Sabratha wrote:

I can understand Adam's pain caused by his general detachment from the world around him, his isolation and mental illness. Still, all of that doesn't really make me feel sorry for him. It would be the same if he decided to kill adults.
I guess the most I can say is that I'm sorry he had chosen this path.

I feel somewhat sorry for him because his choices were very limited to begin with.

Maybe also because his writings were not insufferably edgy (at least the “serious” ones, his youtube comments are a different story lol) and did not include endless self-aggrandizement and rape fantasies. This is quite a superficial reason to sympathize or not sympathize with someone though.

morgenroede wrote:

his youtube comments are a different story lol

The most edgy thing I've ever come across on the Internet ngl.

morgenroede wrote:

Sabratha wrote:

I can understand Adam's pain caused by his general detachment from the world around him, his isolation and mental illness. Still, all of that doesn't really make me feel sorry for him. It would be the same if he decided to kill adults.
I guess the most I can say is that I'm sorry he had chosen this path.

I feel somewhat sorry for him because his choices were very limited to begin with.

I feel at the end he was down to at least two:
1. Homicide&Suicide
2. Suicide

This is a purely subjective interpretation of his reasoning (none of us can read the mind of a dead guy), but I feel the primary reason he chose option 1 over 2 was that he "didn't want to just fade away" without anyone noticing. I think he wanted to cause pain&suffering to a society he hated, but there was an additional motive of making people notice that he killed himself.

I guess I forgot to stress this part in my post with the bulletpoints above. I'm gonna go back and add it as a separate bulletpoint.

Sabratha wrote:

I feel at the end he was down to at least two:
1. Homicide&Suicide
2. Suicide

This is a purely subjective interpretation of his reasoning (none of us can read the mind of a dead guy), but I feel the primary reason he chose option 1 over 2 was that he "didn't want to just fade away" without anyone noticing. I think he wanted to cause pain&suffering to a society he hated, but there was an additional motive of making people notice that he killed himself.

I don’t think he worried too much about himself fading away (he just doesn’t strike me as an attention-seeker, unlike E&D or Pekka) but he probably felt like if he just killed himself his death would be “in vain” and there would be yet another little victory on the part of the society he hated.

"I do not try to avoid doing anything for you as you seem to think. I am glad that I was born, and I appreciate your having taken care of me."

an email from Adam to Nancy in 2008, I remember this so often because of what Peter said about wishing Adam had never been born. Aside from this I find your overview to make sense, my rationalization is he really was grateful as he had a nice home, they were well off, good computer, and his mother would accomodate many of his odd needs, and ultimately she supplied him with guns and ammo. He was able to kill himself but many of the world has done so, and if you've ever gone to gore sites ike Adam did and if you see some of the comments you'll know suicide victims are treated as nothing but jokes and pity. This ties back to his mother, as I think he was grateful for her giving him these opportunities but was genuinely unhappy that he could not connect with Nancy as he mentions bringing up topics important to him but being unable to discuss them with her. Nancy wanted to be able to communicate with Adam so she gave him the space he wanted and bought him the things he asked for and kept things clean to his liking in order to not push him further and further and lose him. It's a really big situation so you think differently about it depending what details stick out in your mind at the time.