Why does Eric wave in the original footage?

SavageGlocker wrote:

Why does Eric wave in the original footage?

They had hand signals they used during the massacre.

Or are you talking about when he lifts up his cup to Dylan?

Screamingophelia wrote:

SavageGlocker wrote:

Why does Eric wave in the original footage?

They had hand signals they used during the massacre.

Or are you talking about when he lifts up his cup to Dylan?

Was talking about the hand signals, forgot they had them. Thanks for reminding me.

Hand Signals Pages 026507-026508

sororityalpha wrote:

Hand Signals Pages 026507-026508

You're very on top of things!

Are you referring to when Dylan comes down the cafeteria stairs with the TEC-9 at the ready?

Like many others I'm sure I've watched that several times. I never interpreted it as waving. I don't think it's one of the hand signals either. I figure the hand signals were for if/when they were too far away or it was too noisy to speak but they needed to communicate, and they were alone in the cafeteria and inches from each other when it was done.

Of course we will probably never know, and one cannot even see Eric's mouth, but I feel like that last swaying motion he does was some kind of "shit" or "fuck".  Eric's broken nose also throws a wrench into things. Who knows if he was thinking clearly.

I think it's either about the sprinklers or the cops. Though, the sprinklers having gone off would have been pretty apparent. I think the gesture is either pointing out something (say the sprinklers, or all the police outside), giving a middle finger (say to the sprinklers or cops outside), or it's a beckoning gesturing towards himself with one hand as in "come at me" (say to the cops). Dylan reacts, but Eric is not looking his way.

I think the "roaming the halls" period has to do more with wanting to find the cops than with remorse or wanting to shoot at lockers or something. I also think the second time they come into the cafeteria on the CCTV, they seem to have their guns at the ready. Isn't that why it's the infamous shot so often used? The other bit to know of course is when they left the cafeteria the last time, a fire had broken out and they probably hoped the bombs were going to go off.

So, it's nothing more than suspicion, but I think they were hoping the bombs exploding would wake up the cops and have them approach, and they would get their shootout with the cops and blaze of glory in the fiery cafeteria. When the sprinklers put it out, I think Eric cursed the cops or the sprinklers.

  

That's what I meant. Thanks for the clear shot, or as clear as it gets. I don't think it's a practiced hand signal or a wave goodbye, though it could well just be gesturing towards something like the sprinklers.  Something about how quick it is and the way his arm is bent still makes me think either "giving a middle finger" or "beckoning the cops". Beckoning the cops is still my guess. Hard to tell at least for me whether it's the back of his hand like with a wave or the side of his hand with some portion of the back and inside like with a beckon. Anybody else see the possibility of waving his fingers toward himself like a beckoning gesture, or am I full of it?

This kind of move:
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I thought he flipped the cops off

  

I think if he was waving goodbye, it would look more like your video, with the arm straight, rather than the arm bent at the elbow. I also think it would've happened later than it did, and for longer.

I also think even if we could prove that was the back of his hand and he was waving, all the work is still ahead of you to see it as a final goodbye and not e. g. a floppy-handed gesture to point at the sprinklers after his nose was broken.

But I don't rule it out either. It's a possibility, and an interesting idea for sure.

Is there a possibility he was waving to a student that was hiding under a table? It looks rather animated and he could also be saying something as well? Just a thought...

There were still kids in the cafeteria so that could be it too.

Oh yeah he was waving to the cops like :"hey I'm here Bastards"

Texenvid wrote:

cakeman wrote:

Are you referring to when Dylan comes down the cafeteria stairs with the TEC-9 at the ready?

No, this :

interesting clip! It does kinda look like a wave to me? Like he was maybe taunting the police? But with all of the smoke in cafeteria would they be able to see the cops clearly? If only the cameras could have been better quality (although these were probably decent quality for a high school in 1999!)

Eric and Dylan did want a shoot out with the cops.

Specifically Dylan wrote in Eric’s yearbook “NBK will be so much fun, killing cops...”


I feel like Dylan signed Eric’s yearbook last of no one else really signed his because Dylan took up a LOT of pages.

TaylorsMom wrote:

Is there a possibility he was waving to a student that was hiding under a table?  It looks rather animated and he could also be saying something as well?  Just a thought...

That's a really interesting thought! Maybe someone happened to make eye contact with him, but it was towards the end of Eric's "rush." So he didn't want to shoot them but he thought they could still get the bombs to go off.

Didn't Eric wanted suicide by a cop?

They definitely wanted to kill cops if not die by cops as well. Also (duh) they expected some kind of bomb/inferno.  And the whole reason that part of the CCTV is the infamous shot is because Dylan has his gun at the ready. Eric also seems to be ready with his gun.  And they had just run off while a fire broke out, hoping or expecting the bombs to go off. And curiously, they did this all just after shooting at the bombs and fiddling with them. So, they were prepared to die, but then decided to run away from the bombs and let them go off.

I think that's all consistent with coming back for a final showdown with the cops when the bombs go off.

Screamingophelia wrote:

Eric and Dylan did want a shoot out with the cops.

Specifically Dylan wrote in Eric’s yearbook “NBK will be so much fun, killing cops...”


I feel like Dylan signed Eric’s yearbook last of no one else really signed his because Dylan took up a LOT of pages.

I wonder how much Dylan was into it at that point. I'm sure you know Dylan's mom said he was being insincere in the tapes, presumably using Eric as a means to commit suicide. That's perhaps part of the cliche 'follower' bit, but I do feel like the "NBK will be so much fun, blowing up stuff! killing cops!..My wrath for January's incident will be godlike" reads like he's trying too hard to impress/conform to Eric's idea, such as the two KMFDM songs in one sentence. Then there's that bit in February he wrote saying "maybe going nbk with eric is the way to break free" showing he wasnt yet 100% committed. Then again, he wore a shirt saying Wrath of course. Still, I don't know, I generally don't buy the "follower" thing, but the "this was just his way to commit suicide" seems plausible, and while what I can read of the basement tapes doesn't make me think what Sue said, that yearbook does.

yes, I know they did have some shots with the police and that Eric wanted death by cops. My point was just about the hand gesture. I'm saying it makes a lot of sense that it could be Eric taunting the police through the windows. But I was trying to play Devil's advocate with he might not have been looking at the police in that moment.

Sorry for the confusion, I need to work on how I word things

cakeman wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

Eric and Dylan did want a shoot out with the cops.

Specifically Dylan wrote in Eric’s yearbook “NBK will be so much fun, killing cops...”


I feel like Dylan signed Eric’s yearbook last of no one else really signed his because Dylan took up a LOT of pages.

I wonder how much Dylan was into it at that point. I'm sure you know Dylan's mom said he was being insincere in the tapes, presumably using Eric as a means to commit suicide. That's perhaps part of the cliche 'follower' bit, but I do feel like the "NBK will be so much fun, blowing up stuff! killing cops!..My wrath for January's incident will be godlike" reads like he's trying too hard to impress/conform to Eric's idea, such as the two KMFDM songs in one sentence. Then there's that bit in February he wrote saying "maybe going nbk with eric is the way to break free" showing he wasnt yet 100% committed. Then again, he wore a shirt saying Wrath of course. Still, I don't know, I generally don't buy the "follower" thing, but the "this was just his way to commit suicide" seems plausible, and while what I can read of the basement tapes doesn't make me think what Sue said, that yearbook does.

I am with you on that too.... I feel really torn about Dylan's motivations at times. I doubt Eric knew the extent of Dylan's pain and I do see a lot of his writings as a way just to make Eric happy like "yea! we are totally going to KMFDM more than any other... we are going to have so much fun!" trying to be edgy.


However I do believe Dylan had growing anger and superiority. Look at the essays he wrote during diversion? There is a certain snobbishness about Dylan. He did start getting angrier and feeling like he was a God "an einstein in an ants body"

Sue would know her son the best and if he seemed to have been acting insincere she would know. Though I do wish an unbiased person wrote about the whole "Dylan, you're Jewish?" thing you have 2 people who spoke about it, both who loved Dylan and were iffy/hated Eric, so they may be seeing something that wasn't there, if that makes sense.

I think Dylan is the one who wrote in his planner sometime in March 1999 "death, afraid?"

I believe Dylan needed a push to commit suicide, he wanted to die but he was also angry and wanted to hurt people. I also believe Eric was more depressed than most people admit.

  

whyno wrote:

yes, I know they did have some shots with the police and that Eric wanted death by cops. My point was just about the hand gesture. I'm saying it makes a lot of sense that it could be Eric taunting the police through the windows. But I was trying to play Devil's advocate with he might not have been looking at the police in that moment.

Sorry for the confusion, I need to work on how I word things

Not sure who the apology is for, but I hope not me. "Duh" say was not because of you, but because needing to mention the bombs as part of what I think was going on, and everybody knowing about their existence.

I'm not sure he could even see the cops, and that's without even considering smoke, which is a good point. I've never been in the cafeteria myself. For example, "hey Dylan, the sprinklers put out the fires" while gesturing at the sprinklers is very much a possibility. Dylan seems to react, and he's the only one we (or I) know he could see.

Talking to another student in the cafeteria is interesting, and something I've never heard, but I doubt it, especially when you see the clip in context. It seems to me either it's to Dylan or it's out into the aether like at the cops or sprinklers or just shouting out his thoughts or whatever. Presumably, if he was talking to another student, it was either to warn them "get out of here so we can die from our bombs without you" or whatever, or it's to taunt them. However, the sprinklers had just put out the fires, so they would have known the bombs aren't happening.

Did screaming say people were still in there? I figured the last few ran out when the fire broke out. Kinda bizarre to imagine somebody hiding under a table amid the fires and the sprinklers.

cakeman wrote:

whyno wrote:

yes, I know they did have some shots with the police and that Eric wanted death by cops. My point was just about the hand gesture. I'm saying it makes a lot of sense that it could be Eric taunting the police through the windows. But I was trying to play Devil's advocate with he might not have been looking at the police in that moment.

Sorry for the confusion, I need to work on how I word things

Not sure who the apology is for, but I hope not me. "Duh" say was not because of you, but because needing to mention the bombs as part of what I think was going on, and everybody knowing about their existence.

I'm not sure he could even see the cops, and that's without even considering smoke, which is a good point. I've never been in the cafeteria myself. For example, "hey Dylan, the sprinklers put out the fires" while gesturing at the sprinklers is very much a possibility. Dylan seems to react, and he's the only one we (or I) know he could see.

Talking to another student in the cafeteria is interesting, and something I've never heard, but I doubt it, especially when you see the clip in context. It seems to me either it's to Dylan or it's out into the aether like at the cops or sprinklers or just shouting out his thoughts or whatever. Presumably, if he was talking to another student, it was either to warn them "get out of here so we can die from our bombs without you" or whatever, or it's to taunt them. However, the sprinklers had just put out the fires, so they would have known the bombs aren't happening.

Did screaming say people were still in there? I figured the last few ran out when the fire broke out. Kinda bizarre to imagine somebody hiding under a table amid the fires and the sprinklers.

I think there were still people in the cafeteria for a while after. I remember 2 instances, one person moving to another table and then the other time I saw someone run was John Savage after he was let go from the library, you see him running like hell through the cafeteria.

MrHorror93700 wrote:

whyno wrote:

iIf only the cameras could have been better quality

Private, Unfortunately.

Do you mean that you think Jeff Co is holding on to a clearer version of the footage? Or do you mean there's an edited HD version online, but it's private?

[quote="Screamingophelia"]

Screamingophelia wrote:

I doubt Eric knew the extent of Dylan's pain

However I do believe Dylan had growing anger and superiority.

I also believe Eric was more depressed than most people admit.

This! Spot on.

Screamingophelia wrote:

I doubt Eric knew the extent of Dylan's pain. However I do believe Dylan had growing anger and superiority. Look at the essays he wrote during diversion? I also believe Eric was more depressed than most people admit. This! Spot on.

Quote :

  

Screamingophelia wrote:

cakeman wrote:

whyno wrote:

yes, I know they did have some shots with the police and that Eric wanted death by cops. My point was just about the hand gesture. I'm saying it makes a lot of sense that it could be Eric taunting the police through the windows. But I was trying to play Devil's advocate with he might not have been looking at the police in that moment.

Sorry for the confusion, I need to work on how I word things

Not sure who the apology is for, but I hope not me. "Duh" say was not because of you, but because needing to mention the bombs as part of what I think was going on, and everybody knowing about their existence.

I'm not sure he could even see the cops, and that's without even considering smoke, which is a good point. I've never been in the cafeteria myself. For example, "hey Dylan, the sprinklers put out the fires" while gesturing at the sprinklers is very much a possibility. Dylan seems to react, and he's the only one we (or I) know he could see.

Talking to another student in the cafeteria is interesting, and something I've never heard, but I doubt it, especially when you see the clip in context. It seems to me either it's to Dylan or it's out into the aether like at the cops or sprinklers or just shouting out his thoughts or whatever. Presumably, if he was talking to another student, it was either to warn them "get out of here so we can die from our bombs without you" or whatever, or it's to taunt them. However, the sprinklers had just put out the fires, so they would have known the bombs aren't happening.

Did screaming say people were still in there? I figured the last few ran out when the fire broke out. Kinda bizarre to imagine somebody hiding under a table amid the fires and the sprinklers.

I think there were still people in the cafeteria for a while after. I remember 2 instances, one person moving to another table and then the other time I saw someone run was John Savage after he was let go from the library, you see him running like hell through the cafeteria.

Yeah I've seen who is apparently John Savage before, but that's obviously during the library massacre, well before Eric and Dylan are in the commons and Eric is gesturing.

I am convinced they told Savage to leave because they thought everybody in the library was gonna die when the bombs exploded. That's what they said would happen, and it's not like they were forced to shoot him if he stayed in the library.  What I can't decide is whether they meant the bombs would explode on their own, while they were in there shooting people, or they thought the people in the library were cornered, and that they would die in the explosion when they went back to the commons and shot at the bombs.

If it's the first option, either they weren't set to explode at 11:17 (or maybe one was and another wasn't), or they were but they still thought they could explode on their own later anyway even if the timing mechanism failed.

If it's the second option, they didn't know about the emergency exit despite attending the school, or ever just looked and saw the open door in a small library. Nor did they think anybody would run out the entrance to the library.

I fully believe he was waving to an officer or maybe somone hidden he could see.
A split second after Eric does this Dylan (while looking the same way) raises his gun slightly in a taunting/show off kinda way.

Mine is just one opinion though