If Columbine never happened.

If Columbine never happened what do you think Eric and Dylan lives would be like today? Do you think they would be successful, married, having kids, etc. Or do you think their adult life would be just as bad as their teenage life?

I've always thought, like most people, that Dylan would go into computers or graphics or something of that nature. Could of had a job like Brooks does had he stuck around.

Eric I'm not sure but right now I think a vet might be down his ally. He loved animals and according to him only science and math are true. But who knows?

I could see them both married with children at some stage, although Eric's wife would need a hell of a lot of patience. Although when some people fall in love they want to change for a person, that could have happened for him. I seriously doubt that though.

I don't like all this "could of had", it makes me sad. Same goes for the people that they killed to.

I think so too. I think if he would have gone to the Univ. of Arizona he and Eric would have gone their separate ways and would do well in computer graphics. Hopefully he would have came out of his shell, found a girlfriend and happiness.
I think Eric would have either designed video games for a living, eventually found a way to join the Marines or I like your idea of him becoming a vet. Hopefully he would have gotten his anger management under control and wouldn't be filled with a lot of anger and rage.
Eric said in the instant messenger conversation that he doesn't think he would want to bring a child in this world. And Dylan said that he didn't want to have kids because kids only messes up people's lives. But it's possible their thoughts and views would have changed.

My life looked a goddamned awful different when I was 17 than it does now.
I do think they would have been ok, or at least had a good chance of being ok, if they had gotten the fuck out of Littleton.
I can see both of them working with computers.
I can't see Eric as a vet because that takes a LOT of fucking schooling but I think he probably would have been excellent in the military.
I can see Dylan married but I think Eric would have been a horrible boyfriend and he would have to find a fucking saint to marry him and put up with his shit forever.


I have heard a lot of people postulate that Dylan would have killed himself eventually, even if he didn't do it that day or in that way. And I have heard people say that Eric would have wound up as a criminal at some point. I just don't see it. I really think they would have been fine with some meds, a few years to mellow out some, and a more diverse population within which to simply be themselves.

I don't think "coming out of his shell" was the problem. They both needed professional help. I think once that was done properly then they'd be fine.

See "this world" and "messes up peoples lives" are their own reflection of how they saw things. Eric hated the world, why would he bring a baby into it? and Dylan saw his brother get kicked out of the house and knew what trouble he was going to cause so it's natural he'd see it that way also.
Had they been, I don't want to say "normal" because that's demeaning but I hope you know what I mean. Had they had the same mindset as everyone else, I think they would have made fine parents. I know their boss Bob had a young daughter who Eric was apparently great with. I'm pretty sure he said the same thing about Dylan to.

BurnIt wrote:

I think Eric would have been a horrible boyfriend and he would have to find a fucking saint to marry him and put up with his shit forever.

I agree with you on that one but as people mature, they change and had he gotten the right help, know knows?

It does take a heck of a lot of schooling to become a vet but people have said that he had something thicker than air between his ears so knows? Although people say lots of things...

I could definitely see Dylan working with computers. Something technical

I think they would have grown up, personally.

They would either be dead or in jail sweetie. As they said this world was not for them.

I agree with Trench Coat. I honestly do not think they would've made anything great of themselves. Before they were even planning NBK, they were already always getting into trouble, with the police even, not just in school/work/home and the neighborhood.

These were troubled kids with serious mental problems. That doesn't just go away.

trench coat wrote:

They would either be dead or in jail sweetie. As they said this world was not for them.

Either dead or in jail you say? They said the world wasn't for them when they were 17 years old. Do you honestly believe that these kids would think that way if they didn't do the massacre? Are you serious about this, because people have the capacity to change their way of thinking. That's a stereotypical statement about them, as if you followed everything from Cullen's book. Here's an idea, back up your statements with proof before stating what you did. Or ask someone who actually knew them, because you would find a difference in opinion.

Jenn wrote:

I agree with Trench Coat. I honestly do not think they would've made anything great of themselves. Before they were even planning NBK, they were already always getting into trouble, with the police even, not just in school/work/home and the neighborhood.

These were troubled kids with serious mental problems. That doesn't just go away.

I agree with Jenn, I think most of us just like the idea of them getting on with their lives and growing up, but I don't see it... A lot of people always are under the impression that Eric would be into programming or something like that, but he declared himself to be great in that sort of thing, while he actually wasn't. I think Dylan was to severly depressed to just snap out of it. With or without meds. Eric was on meds, but that really didn't help. I don't know...I guess somewhere in live it would all have turned into shit...Suicide, jail, homecide..whatever!

I'm not really able to see how it would have been.
I think Eric would be going from job to job while Dylan might have thought about suicide for quite a lot.
I don't know what else, I can't picture them with a partner and kids.

I'm reading Eric journal right now and it's hard to see a future for Eric.... or at least a happy future anyways. Anger towards people for being mindless doesn't just go away nor is it something any pill can fix. He wanted to kill more than he wanted to live to show everyone that he's above them by doing something that no one else can. If Eric went to college he would have saw the same things there that he did in high school that made him angry. He just would have been Seung Hui-Cho instead.

Dylan on the other hand might have lived a happy life had he gotten some help with his depression and disorganized thoughts.

I can't help but feel that if the two of them were not so isolated and stuck in white bread suburbia they would've broaden their horizons. What if they'd been allowed to travel more or spent a summer out of the country? I have no doubt this would've changed them completely in a positive way. Instead, they were stuck in their own little narrow world. They needed to see the world as a whole. Life was not Columbine HS, or Black Jacks or midnight bowling. There is so much more that they could have been opened up to. Both of their parents seemed upper middle class so I'm wondering why no vacations out of state or the country? Dylan and Nate's family spent spring break in Arizona picking out Dylan's dorm - just weeks before the massacre. Sure, Dylan was compartmentalizing and giving everyone the impression that he was excited and looking forward to the future in Arizona, while the secret side knew what he was about to do. Supposedly, there were even pictures taken of him hugging cactuses (would love to see those!) A part of me believes that he really could begin to see himself there and his energy was renewed with possibilities in a whole 'nother state, enjoying the desert, and away from Eric. That's sad to think about. Being thrown into a new environment in college meant that he could've wiped the slate clean and he could've been anyone he wanted to be for people that didn't know him. A fresh start. I know Zach Heckler is a VP of a software company (from looking at Devon Adam's LinkedIn) and look at where Brooks is at - Lucasfilm and now Cameron's company. Dylan would've easily ace'd these types of positions. The shyness would always have been there but as he grew older he'd learn to manage it with new experiences and having more control over his life as an adult and not a mere high school student. The depression could've receded as long as he was exposed to new cities and different people.

And Eric, I really do think he was well suited for the Marines. It is a shame that he was rejected because of the medication. I read in Kass' book that his mother notified the recruiter of the drugs he was on. I wonder if there is any truth to that? If not the Marines, he showed software engineer potential with the Doom wads. The levels he created were over-the-top and not ingenius, but still, he had the know how. It was good practice for a promising tech career.

I think both had the potential for marriage but in the distant future. Dylan seemed like he longed for a deep, long-lasting monogamous relationship. Eric could have shown promise with the right girl. I's a pity that Susan Dewitt seemed to have that type of class and potential he was looking for right at the very end. Sure, they didn't want kids. No surprise there. What 17/18 year old ever wants kids? With time, maturing and more relationship experience, their perspective likely would've changed about kids.

I love how much thought goes into your posts. I thought this was very well written and I agree with many of the points you made. And I'm on your side on what their life might have been like after high school.

I agree with the going out of the state/country, it played a major part in my recovery so it could have done something good to them too.
It would have made them realise that not everything and everywhere is like they imagined and how many opportunities the could have had, how many things there are outside the life they used to live and how much things can get different.

The more I think about it, I believe that unless Dylan had sought treatment, he most likely would have committed suicide by 30. He was deeply troubled. What has always disturbed me is how easily Dylan hid his issues from his parents.

I'm kind of on the fence with Eric. He may have outgrown his anger. He may have done well in the Marines. Or he may have become a controlling, douchey boyfriend/husband.

Lightning Proof wrote:

What has always disturbed me is how easily Dylan hid his issues from his parents.

Everyone else who knew him hadn't a clue either. Zach Heckler was one of his best friends (if not his best friend) and he had no idea.

They were aware and said a lot of times about being somehow better than the average kid, they weren't 'godlike' indeed, that's exaggerated, they just understood life isn't all a dream and took it to the extreme. They knew they had the potential of doing something big and maybe it was true.
It could have been something else, perhaps something that could've enhanced their lives.
Yet they decided the greatest thing they could do was killing people and themselves.
It angers me anytime I think of it.

areyoulistening wrote:

Lightning Proof wrote:

What has always disturbed me is how easily Dylan hid his issues from his parents.

Everyone else who knew him hadn't a clue either. Zach Heckler was one of his best friends (if not his best friend) and he had no idea.

At least he claims he had no idea? Given the redacted name in Dylan's occasional journal mentionings: "I'll go on a killing spree with ____" and the most likely choice being Zach Heckler as redacted, I'd speculate that Zach and Dylan spent a lot of time pouring their guts on the phone with no holds barred. If Dylan considered him his best friend who understood him, it would be easy to see their conversations being very confessional - discussing mutual hate of the school, Dylan's vitriolic loathing of jocks, fantasing about blowing up CHS (that was known to be a major jest and supposedly they created a computer simulation of blowing up the school), wishing they could off themselves..and.. it would it be so far off base to think that Dylan and Zach fantasized about the stereotypical school shooting spree? Nope! Maybe this is why Dylan seems to mention redacted/Zach as a special placeholder for the shooting spree idea earlier on in his journal while Eric only gets relegated in conjunction with NBK later on in his journal. At some point, Zach pairs with Devon and maybe Dylan doesn't confess as deeply with Zach anymore or maybe just not as much? Because at some point, Dylan passes the baton to Eric with a kamikaze style spree. But I do recall that Zach and Dylan still communicated regularly even after Devon came between them, even after Zach's parents told him not to hang with Dylan/Eric as much because of the locker hacking incident at school. It's highly possible Zach knew a lot more than he ultimately let on to the investigation team regarding Dylan's vengeful, angry side and because it was too damning to come forth with. I don't recall if he took a lie detector test (anyone?) I would think that because he was a close 'associate' he would've had to. Then again, maybe the questions asked via a polygraph would be specific to Eric and Dylan and that Zach didn't know the specifics of what they were up to. I would think that Zach would know the term "NBK" since he was tight with Dylan and Eric there for a while. Plus, Eric references his "Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse"; I think Zach and Chris Morris was the other two included in that group at one time. Anyway, Zach never went public with interviews the way Nate did. He just dropped of the face of the earth. I think to save his own skin, he feigned that he was shocked and surprised and that he didn't know anything about the attack or that Dylan would do such a thing. He will probably never reliquish this information to anyone and will take it to his grave.

CatherineM813 wrote:

I love how much thought goes into your posts. I thought this was very well written and I agree with many of the points you made. And I'm on your side on what their life might have been like after high school.

Thanks. Course, otoh, they did need professional help in addition to new surroundings. Dylan was self medicating and secretly took St. John's Wort suppliments to try and harness a shred of motivation and Eric was taking incorrectly prescribed meds that exacerbated his homicidal tendencies. Both parents were too checked out to really see subtle signs or to atleast break these two up after criminal charges were filed against them. They didn't investigate or pry enough and tended to gloss over. If the two had gotten on with their lives, they would've likely had snags that would might pull them back into the same mindset. i.e. Dylan probably had a chemical imbalance and if he had broken up with his very first girlfriend in college, he likely have plunged right back into the depths of despair. To have a promising future, they needed assistance to put them back on track and keep them on it.

Ivan wrote:

Do you honestly believe that these kids would think that way if they didn't do the massacre? That's a stereotypical statement about them, as if you followed everything from Cullen's book. Here's an idea, back up your statements with proof before stating what you did. Or ask someone who actually knew them, because you would find a difference in opinion.

Yes I do believe that, I study criminal psychology. I only made it half-way through Cullen's book, and I didn't like much of it really. Do you actually know somebody who knew them that would have a different opinion on this?

trench coat wrote:

Ivan wrote:

Do you honestly believe that these kids would think that way if they didn't do the massacre? That's a stereotypical statement about them, as if you followed everything from Cullen's book. Here's an idea, back up your statements with proof before stating what you did. Or ask someone who actually knew them, because you would find a difference in opinion.

Yes I do believe that, I study criminal psychology. I only made it half-way through Cullen's book, and I didn't like much of it really. Do you actually know somebody who knew them that would have a different opinion on this?

Is there any PROOF that you're studying criminal psychology? Unless you have actual proof that suggests you're knowledgeable about the subject, refrain from using it as a back up for your argument. It seems like you're also trying to use your less-than-extensive knowledge on Cullen's book to your advantage, and that doesn't make a case for your rebuttal either. It's entirely plausible that people who knew them could give a different account on this. Perhaps start with their parents.

Ivan wrote:

trench coat wrote:

Ivan wrote:

Do you honestly believe that these kids would think that way if they didn't do the massacre? That's a stereotypical statement about them, as if you followed everything from Cullen's book. Here's an idea, back up your statements with proof before stating what you did. Or ask someone who actually knew them, because you would find a difference in opinion.

Yes I do believe that, I study criminal psychology. I only made it half-way through Cullen's book, and I didn't like much of it really. Do you actually know somebody who knew them that would have a different opinion on this?

Is there any PROOF that you're studying criminal psychology? Unless you have actual proof that suggests you're knowledgeable about the subject, refrain from using it as a back up for your argument. It seems like you're also trying to use your less-than-extensive knowledge on Cullen's book to your advantage, and that doesn't make a case for your rebuttal either. It's entirely plausible that people who knew them could give a different account on this. Perhaps start with their parents.

Can we just agree to disagree please? Some people are going to have different opinions on things, it's okay. That's life

Ivan wrote:

It's entirely plausible that people who knew them could give a different account on this. Perhaps start with their parents.

Or perhaps the people who knew them the most, their school peers? Lets ask them what they think, oh wait I already have and they have nothing good say about them. We are discussing Columbine, so if you could refrain from asking personal questions I would appreciate it. And no I am not going to turn around and sink to your level by asking the same irrelevant questions about you personally.

trench coat wrote:

Ivan wrote:

It's entirely plausible that people who knew them could give a different account on this. Perhaps start with their parents.

Or perhaps the people who knew them the most, their school peers? Lets ask them what they think, oh wait I already have and they have nothing good say about them. We are discussing Columbine, so if you could refrain from asking personal questions I would appreciate it. And no I am not going to turn around and sink to your level by asking the same irrelevant questions about you personally.

I doubt their school peers knew them the best. They only met them during their time at Columbine, which was 4 years out of their entire lives. Those questions aren't irrelevant as you brought them into the equation and now you're back-peddling, as you cannot physically prove your credentials. Don't use them as justification for your argument if they don't aid it.

Ivan wrote:

as you cannot physically prove your credentials. Don't use them as justification for your argument if they don't aid it.

First of all I have no intention of giving information to a stranger like yourself. And it wasn't an argument until you started personally attacking me, get over yourself please.

trench coat wrote:

Ivan wrote:

as you cannot physically prove your credentials. Don't use them as justification for your argument if they don't aid it.

First of all I have no intention of giving information to a stranger like yourself. And it wasn't an argument until you started personally attacking me, get over yourself please.

That wasn't asking for personal things, it was you using non-credible information in this argument with nothing to back it up. Show me where I personally attacked you, you're obliged to so we can counter the problem. Also, there's nothing to get over as I wasn't the one making false assertions ascertaining to the discussion we're having.

I problem I have here is people are so quick to say Eric wouldn't have a future based on the fact her was already causing trouble around the neighbourhood, the break in etc etc.

But there have been so many cases of teens who are completely off the rails yet still don't go on to commit mass murder…or ruin the own life on a lesser scale. It is possible to turn things around.

With help even the most seemingly fucked up person can turn their life around, even if they do have a brief stint in prison. Excluding rape and murder, all hope is not lost after jail.

Now, I do speculate that Eric and Dylan could have lived relatively normal lives, but I do think one or both of them could have ended up domestic abusers purely because they had such bad tempers.

Sue Klebold even said Dylan warned her "stop, I don't know how much more I could take." when she pushed him in the kitchen.

Ivan comes across as a very angry man sometimes.

Ivan wrote:

trench coat wrote:

Ivan wrote:

It's entirely plausible that people who knew them could give a different account on this. Perhaps start with their parents.

Or perhaps the people who knew them the most, their school peers?  Lets ask them what they think, oh wait I already have and they have nothing good say about them.  We are discussing Columbine, so if you could refrain from asking personal questions I would appreciate it.  And no I am not going to turn around and sink to your level by asking the same irrelevant questions about you personally.

I doubt their school peers knew them the best. They only met them during their time at Columbine, which was 4 years out of their entire lives. Those questions aren't irrelevant as you brought them into the equation and now you're back-peddling, as you cannot physically prove your credentials. Don't use them as justification for your argument if they don't aid it.

I do believe that a lot of their friends heard more than they've let on, but of course, brushed it off as a joke. I don't know for sure if I believe their friends were directly involved with the massacre, but I guess we may never know for sure.


But, I'd like to point out that certain people have a very good skill at making people THINK they know a lot about them / let people THINK they're opening up without telling them anything at all. Maybe this was the case with E & D