a reason why Columbine may be legendary/glamourized - friends/duo shooters?

Mostly, and I mean majority of shooting cases are of a singular shooter, a lone guy; could a reason why Columbine has become so romanticised and talked about is due to the fact that it's an act of a gruesome crime inclusive of two friends? The unknown dynamic between both of them knows no bound to discussions, etc. I mean personally I feel couple/duo crimes are fascinating and let alone a school shooting -- sounds like something out of a fictional cult film. EDIT***: let's say if it had been done by only one of the boys would there be a huge difference?
What made Columbine bigger and more memorable than Kip Kinkel?

Agree. Too bad that people think Eric was the mastermind/psycopath and Dylan was the puppy follower. Columbine might be legendary but lots of people misunderstood it

I think having two shooters was definitely part of the reason why Columbine is still talked about after 17 years. I also think its largely because we were able to watch it all play out live on television.

Some of us are old enough to remember being glued to the television that morning with our mouths hanging open in shock. We watched frightened kids running out of the school. We saw Rachel being dragged across the grass. We saw Patrick Ireland falling out of the window. We heard the gunfire and saw smoke from the bombs. That is why columbine left such a huge mark on society. We had never seen anything like that before.

Kida wrote:

Agree. Too bad that people think Eric was the mastermind/psycopath and Dylan was the puppy follower. Columbine might be legendary but lots of people misunderstood it

Yep. And as we know all too well, a lot of people who aren't too familiar with the facts of the case assume that Eric and Dylan were purely victims themselves pre-4/20/99 and that they were relentlessly bullied, but seem ignorant/are wilfully ignorant of the fact that there were numerous reports of Eric and Dylan bullying/mistreating other people, too. They don't stop to think that a lot of other factors came into play. I couldn't even make a comment on Facebook last month paying my respects to Eric and Dylan's 13 victims without some person jumping on my case about how Eric and Dylan were victims, too.

I notice people like to also blame the school in a holistic sense. Whilst I acknowledge that, going by what some students have said, Columbine seemed to have a rather problematic social climate (reports of homophobia, racism, reports of bullying/nasty behaviour displayed by different people, including E&D themselves) around the time of the massacre (based of witness accounts, some complimentary of Columbine, others not so much), it might be worth noting that Eric himself said the school wasn't to blame:

Quote :

"God damnit do not blame anyone else besides me and V for this. Don’t blame my family, they had no clue and there’s nothing they could have done, they brought me up just fucking fine ... don’t blame the school. . . the admin[istration] is doing a fine job."

..or maybe we should just disregard that since Eric was prone to talking out of his ass.

Quote :

"Eric Harris: I’m sorry I have so much rage, but you put it on me.

Eric then complains about his father and how his family had to move five times. He says he always had to be the new kid in school, and was always at the bottom of the “food chain,” and had no chance to earn any respect from his peers as he always had to “start out at the
bottom of the ladder.” He hated the way people made fun of him: “my face, my hair, my shirts.” He’s wearing a t-shirt that has the words “Wilder Wein” printed on it — he references the shirt several times during the video but never explains what it means. [“Wilder Wein” is a song by Rammstein.]

Harris: More rage. More rage. [motions with his hands for emphasis] Keep building it on.

Klebold: If you could see all the anger I’ve stored over the past four fucking years ...

Dylan then recalls how popular and athletic his older brother Byron was and how he constantly “ripped” on him, as did his brother’s friends. According to Dylan, with the exception of his parents, his extended family treated him like the runt of the litter. - (note that even Sue Klebold felt Dylan was reaching with this statement. She said their entire immediate family had very little to do with the extended family as it was, so she was perplexed as to why Dylan was trying to use this as justification for what he was going to do).

Klebold: You made me what I am. You added to the rage.

Dylan says that as far back as the Foothills Day Care center he hated the “stuck-up” kids who he felt hated him.

Klebold: Being shy didn’t help. I’m going to kill you all. You’ve been giving us shit for years."

Edit: This is actually a pretty decent document which explores Eric's motives/attempts at justification for carrying out the massacre with Dylan: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

I saw a really good comment on youtube on one of Seung-Hui Cho's videos where he was explaining why he was going to commit the Virginia Tech Massacre:

Quote :

"He was embarrassed by his own lack of social skills and blamed the pain inside him as a cancer they caused in him. That is how it felt to him. So he blamed them for his own failings. It made sense in his brain, because he did not know what he did wrong. He was a misfit, but his ego would not let him accept it, so he demonized others on fake grounds of hedonism, etc. to give himself a moral high ground from which to kill from. It is a typical in those who run amok."

Although I don't deny that Eric and Dylan were at times bullied or mistreated by some of their peers (but I still have to stress they engaged in a lot of unsavoury behaviour themselves - i.e. Dylan bullying and threatening Adam Kyler just as one example), I think the above comment actually kind of applies to them in some ways.

But yes, back on topic, I agree with those who say that the shock factor for Columbine stems from the fact that it was the first time in history that two white boy-next-door, upper middle class teens from picturesque Colorado would do something so crazy, especially in such a conservative and fairly well-to-do place.

Quote :

DYLAN Klebold: I’d like to make a thank you to Mark John Doe and Phil John Doe. I hope you don’t get fucked. [Eric laughs; Dylan continues] “We used them. They had no clue. . . Don’t blame them. And don’t fucking arrest them. Don’t arrest any of our friends, or family members or our co-workers. They had no fucking clue. Don’t arrest anyone, because they didn’t have a have a fucking clue. If it hadn’t been them, it would’ve been someone else over twenty-one.

Good god those boys really had no proper grasp of the consequences their actions would have on others. That whole paragraph above only further highlights their immaturity. As if the police would refrain from arresting them just because Dylan Klebold said so. "I hope you don't get fucked" - It was an absolute given they were going to get fucked in some way. They were really so horribly naive.

Columbine is relateable. Not to everyone, but to a lot of kids getting bullied or hating school, NBK is something to fall back upon. Where a lot of shooters have had severe mental illnesses that made them hard to relate to for the average person, Eric & Dylan really didn't. Depression or anger issues excluded. Also ignoring the debate over Eric being a psychopath because, well, thats just futile. So, yes Columbine is glamourized because of the multiple shooters, but also because of its relatability and its ability to give kids 'hope' through tough times that maybe, just maybe, they are still in control.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] "I think having two shooters was definitely part of the reason why Columbine is still talked about after 17 years. I also think its largely because we were able to watch it all play out live on television.

Some of us are old enough to remember being glued to the television that morning with our mouths hanging open in shock. We watched frightened kids running out of the school. We saw Rachel being dragged across the grass. We saw Patrick Ireland falling out of the window. We heard the gunfire and saw smoke from the bombs. That is why columbine left such a huge mark on society. We had never seen anything like that before."

True, everything played out like a movie and most of the footages are so helpful for us today.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] thank you for your input. That's very thorough insight to the boys' mind which is also a factor as to why partner shooters could make Columbine what it is today - up will now we're still discussing the dynamics between E & D, what made them choose to commit murder and etc. They almost became the product of teen murder-cult following today which is why there's also infamous copycats.

eli27 wrote:

Columbine is relateable. Not to everyone, but to a lot of kids getting bullied or hating school, NBK is something to fall back upon. Where a lot of shooters have had severe mental illnesses that made them hard to relate to for the average person, Eric & Dylan really didn't. Depression or anger issues excluded. Also ignoring the debate over Eric being a psychopath because, well, thats just futile. So, yes Columbine is glamourized because of the multiple shooters, but also because of its relatability and its ability to give kids 'hope' through tough times that maybe, just maybe, they are still in control.

I get what you're saying with the whole "troubled people will latch onto something they feel they can identify with" angle (although I still think those people are more often than not misguided as far as Columbine is concerned), but I think you're being a bit dismissive of the severity of Eric and Dylan's mental issues/possible personality disorders. They had significant anger problems and depression is also a very serious mental illness. Just because they functioned in their daily lives better than say, Lanza or Cho, doesn't take away from the fact that they were both highly dysfunctional and disturbed individuals underneath it all. I think that again that's where that boy-next-door facade comes into play.

"but also because of its relatability and its ability to give kids 'hope' through tough times that maybe, just maybe, they are still in control."
yup, even though it meant control in a negative context. In a way, knowing you're going to kill someone and die is liberating, as you said, that's the part where they feel hope and control. However if it let's say just one of them did Columbine would there be a difference? Would it have been less followed as the case is up till now? I mean hell even tv shows such as Cold Case did such a bittersweet mall shooting episode between two underdog friends.

bubbles wrote:

eli27 wrote:

Columbine is relateable. Not to everyone, but to a lot of kids getting bullied or hating school, NBK is something to fall back upon. Where a lot of shooters have had severe mental illnesses that made them hard to relate to for the average person, Eric & Dylan really didn't. Depression or anger issues excluded. Also ignoring the debate over Eric being a psychopath because, well, thats just futile. So, yes Columbine is glamourized because of the multiple shooters, but also because of its relatability and its ability to give kids 'hope' through tough times that maybe, just maybe, they are still in control.

I get what you're saying with the whole "troubled people will latch onto something they feel they can identify with" angle (although I still think those people are more often than not misguided as far as Columbine is concerned), but I think you're being a bit dismissive of the severity of Eric and Dylan's mental issues/possible personality disorders. They had significant anger problems and depression is also a very serious mental illness. Just because they functioned in their daily lives better than say, Lanza or Cho, doesn't take away from the fact that they were both highly dysfunctional and disturbed individuals underneath it all. I think that again that's where that boy-next-door facade comes into play.

I wouldn't say they functioned better in their daily lives than those people though - they left clear signs they were disturbed individuals, even with day-to-day dealings.

Dylan pulled a gun on students a couple of grades below him at a gas station and threatened to kill them. According to the witness he had a shotgun on him at the time.

Eric barely kept his cool together during 1998 - you can see by his facial expressions/the energy he's putting out in the cafeteria video that he was a disturbed young man. He glared at the camera with such hatred and anger, it still amazes me people didn't take him seriously.

In comparison, yes, Cho and Lanza had trouble(s) (I don't know much about Lanza so I won't zero in on him) but Cho had kept out of trouble for nearly 2 years prior to his rampage. The last time he came under police notice was 2005. Eric and Dylan had about the same amount of time between their van break-in and the subsequent massacre.

I think Virginia Tech is very interesting because it is so similar to Columbine, yet also so different. In many ways it is a repeat of it - the planning, morbid stories and the final result all have familiar tones. The fact Cho himself idolized Eric and Dylan make it even more compelling.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] @eli let's just put it this way - if they knew how to hide their arsenal, act infront of their family/friends, were very much aware they couldn't get caught prior to 4/20, does that make them mentally disturbed/ill or were normal BUT troubled teens, who committed a premeditated crime? what they knew was extremely wrong to do, they consciously decided together, yes, let's kill people. let's go out with a bang. because they were very very very normal teens with a mediocre social life. Cho, barely spoke to anyone, people almost thought he was autistic or he had an issue where he was superrrrrr shy and was basically mute but was very smart. I would say more likely Cho had a slight mental defect but eric and dylan? I wouldn't say so. Maybe eric due to his medications definitely might experience an alter of sanity along the way. If anything, as morbid to say, I am at times half of eric and half of dyl. being manipulative, almost anyone can do, most of the time to one's own benefit and not cause they're a psychopath. the vast difference between the boys and I is they had that final snap where they truly decided to grab a gun and pull the trigger.

Ivan wrote:

I wouldn't say they functioned better in their daily lives than those people though - they left clear signs they were disturbed individuals, even with day-to-day dealings.

Dylan pulled a gun on students a couple of grades below him at a gas station and threatened to kill them. According to the witness he had a shotgun on him at the time.

Eric barely kept his cool together during 1998 - you can see by his facial expressions/the energy he's putting out in the cafeteria video that he was a disturbed young man. He glared at the camera with such hatred and anger, it still amazes me people didn't take him seriously.

In comparison, yes, Cho and Lanza had trouble(s) (I don't know much about Lanza so I won't zero in on him) but Cho had kept out of trouble for nearly 2 years prior to his rampage. The last time he came under police notice was 2005. Eric and Dylan had about the same amount of time between their van break-in and the subsequent massacre.

I think Virginia Tech is very interesting because it is so similar to Columbine, yet also so different. In many ways it is a repeat of it - the planning, morbid stories and the final result all have familiar tones. The fact Cho himself idolized Eric and Dylan make it even more compelling.

These are very good points, but I was more so referring to how Eric and Dylan were capable of at least giving the impression they were normal teenagers to a lot of people (despite all the red flags displayed to others that you correctly pointed out). Adam's severe Aspergers meant that he had significant trouble socializing with people. The general agreement amongst those who knew Cho was that he was also very reclusive and was not able to even pretend to socialize in a normal fashion.

I was just trying to drive home the point that even though Eric and Dylan may have appeared to have been fairly normal teenagers void of any serious mental/personality issues beyond a terrible case of teenage angst, it's rather apparent that's not the case. Just because the side effects of a mental illness such as depression may not be blatantly obvious when compared to an illness like severe Aspergers in Adam's case, it doesn't mean that it should be easily overlooked by people.

Interesting you point out Eric's facial expressions/mannerisms picked up in the cafeteria footage by his friend. There's one point where he appears lost in his own thoughts with a funny expression on his face (see image below):

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

He then appears to involuntarily squeeze his eyes shut, almost like he has a facial tick. I've always wondered if there was something behind that.

bubbles wrote:

Ivan wrote:

I wouldn't say they functioned better in their daily lives than those people though - they left clear signs they were disturbed individuals, even with day-to-day dealings.

Dylan pulled a gun on students a couple of grades below him at a gas station and threatened to kill them. According to the witness he had a shotgun on him at the time.

Eric barely kept his cool together during 1998 - you can see by his facial expressions/the energy he's putting out in the cafeteria video that he was a disturbed young man. He glared at the camera with such hatred and anger, it still amazes me people didn't take him seriously.

In comparison, yes, Cho and Lanza had trouble(s) (I don't know much about Lanza so I won't zero in on him) but Cho had kept out of trouble for nearly 2 years prior to his rampage. The last time he came under police notice was 2005. Eric and Dylan had about the same amount of time between their van break-in and the subsequent massacre.

I think Virginia Tech is very interesting because it is so similar to Columbine, yet also so different. In many ways it is a repeat of it - the planning, morbid stories and the final result all have familiar tones. The fact Cho himself idolized Eric and Dylan make it even more compelling.

These are very good points, but I was more so referring to how Eric and Dylan were capable of at least giving the impression they were normal teenagers to a lot of people (despite all the red flags displayed to others that you correctly pointed out). Adam's severe Aspergers meant that he had significant trouble socializing with people. The general agreement amongst those who knew Cho was that he was also very reclusive and was not able to even pretend to socialize in a normal fashion.

I was just trying to drive home the point that even though Eric and Dylan may have appeared to have been fairly normal teenagers void of any serious mental/personality issues beyond a terrible case of teenage angst, it's rather apparent that's not the case. Just because the side effects of a mental illness such as depression may not be blatantly obvious when compared to an illness like severe Aspergers in Adam's case, it doesn't mean that it should be easily overlooked by people.

Interesting you point out Eric's facial expressions/mannerisms picked up in the cafeteria footage by his friend. There's one point where he appears lost in his own thoughts with a funny expression on his face (see image below):

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

He then appears to involuntarily squeeze his eyes shut, almost like he has a facial tick. I've always wondered if there was something behind that.

Well, we can agree on the fact Eric and Dylan had no real "social" disorder that prevented them from leading a normal life. They were victims of other disorders however (psychopathy not withstanding); but hatred or even depression is much easier to hide than Aspergers or Selective Mutism.

Ivan wrote:

bubbles wrote:

eli27 wrote:

Columbine is relateable. Not to everyone, but to a lot of kids getting bullied or hating school, NBK is something to fall back upon. Where a lot of shooters have had severe mental illnesses that made them hard to relate to for the average person, Eric & Dylan really didn't. Depression or anger issues excluded. Also ignoring the debate over Eric being a psychopath because, well, thats just futile. So, yes Columbine is glamourized because of the multiple shooters, but also because of its relatability and its ability to give kids 'hope' through tough times that maybe, just maybe, they are still in control.

I get what you're saying with the whole "troubled people will latch onto something they feel they can identify with" angle (although I still think those people are more often than not misguided as far as Columbine is concerned), but I think you're being a bit dismissive of the severity of Eric and Dylan's mental issues/possible personality disorders. They had significant anger problems and depression is also a very serious mental illness. Just because they functioned in their daily lives better than say, Lanza or Cho, doesn't take away from the fact that they were both highly dysfunctional and disturbed individuals underneath it all. I think that again that's where that boy-next-door facade comes into play.

I wouldn't say they functioned better in their daily lives than those people though - they left clear signs they were disturbed individuals, even with day-to-day dealings.

Dylan pulled a gun on students a couple of grades below him at a gas station and threatened to kill them. According to the witness he had a shotgun on him at the time.

Eric barely kept his cool together during 1998 - you can see by his facial expressions/the energy he's putting out in the cafeteria video that he was a disturbed young man. He glared at the camera with such hatred and anger, it still amazes me people didn't take him seriously.

In comparison, yes, Cho and Lanza had trouble(s) (I don't know much about Lanza so I won't zero in on him) but Cho had kept out of trouble for nearly 2 years prior to his rampage. The last time he came under police notice was 2005. Eric and Dylan had about the same amount of time between their van break-in and the subsequent massacre.

I think Virginia Tech is very interesting because it is so similar to Columbine, yet also so different. In many ways it is a repeat of it - the planning, morbid stories and the final result all have familiar tones. The fact Cho himself idolized Eric and Dylan make it even more compelling.

Wasn't Eric also in the car with Dylan at the gas station, also waving a gun? That's another incident that Dylan's Mom totally ignores.

Wait what is this about a gun being pulled at a gas station? Is this separate from 4/20?

I haven't heard about the gas station incident either.  Is this in the 11K? Damn, I've only read bits and pieces of the 11k....I guess I need to start reading more.

I always laugh when I see Eric make that strange face in the cafeteria video, but now that I think about it....I see what Bubbles is saying about it possibly being an involuntary facial tic. I'm curious because involuntary tics are  sometimes associated with obsessive compulsive disorder, which is what Eric was initially diagnosed with.  Granted, I think there was a whole lot more going on than OCD, but it's still interesting to consider.

One thing that's interesting to me... Regardless of how mundane and boring that cafeteria video is, the fact that he committed murder means everything he ever did up until that point will be over analyzed. Every gesture, expression, the way he dressed, everything he ever said or wrote unrelated to the massacre, every blink and every sigh will have some sort of speculation behind it, forever. I sometimes wonder, For a guy who was so self conscious, if he realized that part of his legacy was to be picked apart and over analyzed. Not gonna lie, I tried figuring him out while warching it too. I always think about that. I guess it's just human nature to be interested/fascinated.

As far as why columbine was so romanticized, to me columbine was to the 90s what the Manson murders were to the 60s. Both were horrible crimes unique for their time that occured at the tail end of a decade and made a huge impact on the world. I also agree with other comments stating that columbine happened in a "pre 9/11 world", when school shootings were still fairly rare, and they caused more destruction and had a higher body count than other school shooters at the time.

The media coverage of columbine was also a factor. Early on before they had all the facts, they were giving the shooters a lot of credit.
There was speculation of bodies being booby trapped, the shooters being able to see media coverage from televisions inside the school and it leading them to more victims, the whole "shootout with the cops", bodies being thrown out of windows (i think people were confused with Patrick Ireland's resuce), a much higher body count than what it actually was... I mean they penned the shooters as being very methodical and calculating. If only they knew at the time that they were just a couple of clumsy teenagers who botched their epic plan and spent more time shooting at inanimate objects than people.

I am not sure if this is what was being referred to above, but in the 11k on Pg 5014 a witness described an event at a 711

"One July 4 1998 Kirk had a run in with who he thought was Harris. Harris was waving a shotgun at him because he threw a donut at Harris as he drove by him in a car. This occurred at a 7-11 store located in Platte Canyon and Coal Mine. Kirk told me that this incident was reported to the police. He further alleged that he only thought it was Harris because he was a member of the TCM."

This is what I always heard what happened.I heard this for the first time back in '99.


July 4, 1998 Columbine student Peter Maher his friends had a negative encounter with Eric, Dylan and a few others at a convenience store.(6) Peter said that he saw one of the boys in a trench coat with a "big pistol-grip shotgun in the air". The two groups ran across each other later the same day at a fireworks stand where another altercation began.(7) One of the "trench coat boys" pulled a knife while another mentioned they had a shotgun, though Peter didn't see the gun at that time. He said he and his friends were able to talk the situation down and got away from the group.



[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] I agree with all of that. I remember I had stated before on here that Columbine was the micro event that changed america whereas 9/11 was the macro event that changed america. I’ve established that aspect as to why Columbine is extremely romanticised and memorable, apart from the fact aswell that all the boys’ personal thoughts and stories and memories were all left out in the open for us to breakdown and analyze, plus they had alot of comrades to add to the information.

I guess my question for this thread is, did the fact that this crime is almost thought of as bittersweet due to the fact that it’s done by two best friends as opposed to a tragedy done by a lone teenager. that two friends manage to hide this and stuck by this plan till the end.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] mmmm... those are conflicting reports of the gas station shotgun incident.....hmm...
gee idk I'm just gonna assume that maybe the boys were goofing off with the replica shotguns they made for their videos? perhaps whoever witnessed this can't even remember what they saw and fabricated it ever since what happened just to have a thing to say.
If they genuinely pulled an actual shotgun before 4/20 the boys wouldn't be that dumb to jeopardise their plan. They've been so thorough hiding any signs of their crime why would they do that on a random day out in the open.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] tbh the eric in columbine vid, I really don't think it was any facial tics due to a personality disorder or whatsoever, watching that I always thought he was just pulling faces at the camera. Like i believed eric could actually just be playing cute. I have friends who make random faces and gesture out of nowhere but it's nothing out of the ordinary. i however won't deny i can see his anxiety and nervousness through the amount of fidgeting he did in the video.

liquorvamp wrote:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] tbh the eric in columbine vid, I really don't think it was any facial tics due to a personality disorder or whatsoever, watching that I always thought he was just pulling faces at the camera. Like i believed eric could actually just be playing cute. I have friends who make random faces and gesture out of nowhere but it's nothing out of the ordinary. i however won't deny i can see his anxiety and nervousness through the amount of fidgeting he did in the video.

Mmm, I don't know if he was simply just mugging for the camera on purpose in that instance. If you look at the video below (around 11:38) he squints/screws his face up in a very rapid manner..certainly looks like an involuntary tic to me..then he appears to just sort of "snap out of it".



Interesting thing is that facial tics can be a sign on many things..Autism included. Not necessarily assuming that Eric was even mildly Autistic, but the strange expression was something I've wondered about (I know he's clowning around at other points in the video, but I don't get the impression he was at that point).

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] yes babe, I know that face that he made, for me, for me at least, i strongly believe he was just pulling faces. He was being dorky i mean behind the camera was his friend eric veik so to me i think he just did it on purpose.

I agree that it was the first time we watched a tragedy such as this in real time, broadcast on every channel and witnessing the events as they unfolded. I also agree that the fact that there were 2 involved is what still makes this unique all these years later.

For me, though, I would say it was the misinformation perpetrated by law enforcement and the attempted coverup of key evidence that has held my interest for years. It took numerous legal battles to get information released, and even still, we have no idea how much more information is withheld. To clandestinely destroy the Basement Tapes with no notification whatsoever to the public just further propagates the theory of a massive coverup still occurring nearly 2 decades later.

In most other school shootings that have happened since, information seemed to be released promptly as it became available and I think that's part of the reason no other school shooter will rise to the level of infamy as Dylan and Eric.

I think also the time period it happened in is significant. Cell phones were just appearing. Not everyone had one. The internet was still pretty much in infancy for most people....I mean the amount of people questioned who stated they never used a computer LOL.

And just the fact that 2 kids starting out around 16 years old, kept their mouths shut for over a year about planning this and pulled it off astounds me when I think about it. The amount of anger they held and even though they "failed" their plan they still caused so much destruction.

And then of course as mentioned the fact that so much evidence has been held back and how much of a fight it has taken to get anything released.

To me, Columbine is the 9/11 of school shootings. The horror, the terror, it was unprecedented. The nonstop news coverage. It was beyond our imaginations that such things could happen. Both were unthinkable.

Of course, in the years since both tragedies, much worse things have happened. It seems to be a mainstay now that someone somewhere has shot up a school or terrorists' mass executions that they videotape and post online. Somehow, we just don't have the same visceral reactions as we did to Columbine and 9/11.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] "For me, though, I would say it was the misinformation perpetrated by law enforcement and the attempted coverup of key evidence that has held my interest for years. It took numerous legal battles to get information released, and even still, we have no idea how much more information is withheld. To clandestinely destroy the Basement Tapes with no notification whatsoever to the public just further propagates the theory of a massive coverup still occurring nearly 2 decades later.

In most other school shootings that have happened since, information seemed to be released promptly as it became available and I think that's part of the reason no other school shooter will rise to the level of infamy as Dylan and Eric."

good point good point. Agreed. the mystery and the controversy over all the myths and misinformation, ignorance and coverups from jeffco, made it so fresh and still talked about. For the latter sentence, I feel like how due to how Columbine had been treated, has made covering of recent shootings changed - in the sense where, it was less relatable and more to like treating every massacre as a brand, with heavy fabrication by the media, and no more grey areas to dig through. cause you see, what we think are 'prompt information' are carefully chosen by the media. Columbine in a way was left to be spilled out in the open, and a large community rushed to hound the authorities for more, let alone the amount of people who knew them, families, their diaries, etc.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] "I think also the time period it happened in is significant. Cell phones were just appearing. Not everyone had one. The internet was still pretty much in infancy for most people....I mean the amount of people questioned who stated they never used a computer LOL.

And just the fact that 2 kids starting out around 16 years old, kept their mouths shut for over a year about planning this and pulled it off astounds me when I think about it. The amount of anger they held and even though they "failed" their plan they still caused so much destruction.

And then of course as mentioned the fact that so much evidence has been held back and how much of a fight it has taken to get anything released."

yuuuuuuuup agreed. It happened right at the period of the new millennium where we had to establish a tragedy, accompanied with the use of up and coming technology. the giant cellphones they utilised back then was a big deal and was their source of contact. the internet, etc. I think to me the most bittersweet part was the story of how two teen boys with broken state of mind and being shook their hands and agreed to this massacre. It's so sad, so relatable, so much anger but yet so much empathy.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] "Of course, in the years since both tragedies, much worse things have happened. It seems to be a mainstay now that someone somewhere has shot up a school or terrorists' mass executions that they videotape and post online. Somehow, we just don't have the same visceral reactions as we did to Columbine and 9/11." school shootings or let alone massacres won't really be looked at the same way as Columbine and 9/11 did again. Columbine had been sensationalised and it follows through up till date. At the same time, it's such a thing for us to romanticise tragedy. We always do. it's almost inevitable for Columbine to be a reference.

Another thing I've noticed recently is that when there is a school shooting, the media will devote a few minutes of coverage, the who, what, when and where, but then poof! That's end of it. It's generally not mentioned again in the days after. Again, it seems at least weekly, sometimes daily, there is a a school shooting, but the only ones that, to me, got enough media coverage that I can think of off the top of my head are Virginia Tech, Sandy Hook and that "I'm so magnificent" guy Eliot Rodger (sp?).

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] Yup. I'm not sure what makes a particular school shooting/shooting case significant. The mass amount? hence as I said a couple responses back, ever since the coverage of Columbine or 9/11, the way the media and the press handles these cases aren't the same anymore, in the sense where, it's less humanized, information are absolutely kept intact and we only know what they choose to let us know. Columbine's information were spilled everywhere and Jeffco fucked up big time. We did all the research ourselves really, and we still are. As morbid as it is, eric and dylan got what they wanted. Their deaths and crime was the only they would ever be talked about and "loved".

Also, wasn't Columbine an event that changed the way the police operate? Like because so many more people died because police did not enter, they changed their ways of operation so that this would never happen this way again?

Lizpuff wrote:

Also, wasn't Columbine an event that changed the way the police operate?  Like because so many more people died because police did not enter, they changed their ways of operation so that this would never happen this way again?

Absolutely. The police response at Columbine was pretty much standard at that time, because nothing like that had ever happened before. In the wake of Columbine, police response nationwide was overhauled to deal with active shooter scenarios. No longer do they set up a perimeter, set up a command post, bring in negotiators, etc., they are trained to enter the building immediately and neutralize the threat.

I'm absolutely not taking up for law enforcement actions during the incident, but that was what every department nationwide would have done at that time.

Tomb wrote:

Lizpuff wrote:

Also, wasn't Columbine an event that changed the way the police operate?  Like because so many more people died because police did not enter, they changed their ways of operation so that this would never happen this way again?

Absolutely. The police response at Columbine was pretty much standard at that time, because nothing like that had ever happened before. In the wake of Columbine, police response nationwide was overhauled to deal with active shooter scenarios. No longer do they set up a perimeter, set up a command post, bring in negotiators, etc., they are trained to enter the building immediately and neutralize the threat.

I'm absolutely not taking up for law enforcement actions during the incident, but that was what every department nationwide would have done at that time.

Thanks I thought so. I posted a few things on the "highlights of the 11k" thread but there were so many officers saying things like "I was just standing around while people died" and talking about low morale and feeling responsible.... anyway that's kinda OT...

That facial expression Eric makes in the video, along with sniffing and a squeak sound is exactly the thing a guy at my school had, he had a form of tourettes (not the extreme kind of swearing at people) he was perfectly normal but sometimes he would make the exact sounds Eric made in the video, the twitching nose, the sniffing, the high pitched squeaks, blink intensely and pull that exact angry face, he'd do it without knowing, he described it as a twitch. It is identical to what Eric did. Also when Eric repeats "Jack off" in that voice is what this guy would do, he'd pick up one word from TV or conversation around him and repeat it in a strange voice.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] <- the face twitch.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] <- the 'squeak' sound he's making.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] <- repeating 'jack off'.

Columbine became one of the deadliest shootings in American history and it sparked a revolution in American culture. Since Columbine there have been numerous school shootings like Virginia Tech and Sandy hook. And the imposing of stricter gun laws across the nation.
But what I don't understand is Cho Seung Hui and Adam Lanza had more kills than Klebold and Harris combined. So what was it that made Klebold and Harris lose the desire to kill more people?

aquillina wrote:

Columbine become one of the deadliest shootings in American history and it sparked a revolution in American culture. Since Columbine there have been numerous school shootings like Virginia Tech and Sandy hook. And the imposing of stricter gun laws across the nation.
But what I don't understand is Cho Seung Hui and Adam Lanza had more kills than  Klebold and Harris combined. So what was it that made Klebold and Harris lose the desire to kill more people?

Various things I'd imagine.

1. Weren't prepared for just a shooting - bombs failed. The other guys were prepared to just go in and shoot till dead.
2. Adrenaline. Their spree lasted approx 50 mins. Didn't Lanza's last about 5?

CharlesWhitman wrote:

That facial expression Eric makes in the video, along with sniffing and a squeak sound is exactly the thing a guy at my school had, he had a form of tourettes (not the extreme kind of swearing at people) he was perfectly normal but sometimes he would make the exact sounds Eric made in the video, the twitching nose, the sniffing, the high pitched squeaks, blink intensely and pull that exact angry face, he'd do it without knowing, he described it as a twitch. It is identical to what Eric did. Also when Eric repeats "Jack off" in that voice is what this guy would do, he'd pick up one word from TV or conversation around him and repeat it in a strange voice.

Thank you charles whitman. Not sure which thread I made the exact same point on, but I remember saying that the facial expressions Eric made wasn't a facial tick or some kind of reaction thing to me, I thought that it was deliberate, like he was making faces and being cute on camera on purpose, because he was bored.

aquillina wrote:

But what I don't understand is Cho Seung Hui and Adam Lanza had more kills than Klebold and Harris combined. So what was it that made Klebold and Harris lose the desire to kill more people?

What [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] said, alongside guns jamming and running out of ammo, plus most of the people in the building had evacuated by then, and they spent too much time probably idling that by the time the cops came they didn't wanna be taken down by them so they did as they wanted to anyway and killed themselves.

aquillina wrote:

But what I don't understand is Cho Seung Hui and Adam Lanza had more kills than Klebold and Harris combined. So what was it that made Klebold and Harris lose the desire to kill more people?

to me it was all about bombing, and a big shoot out with the cops and firing on fleeing people. shooting people under desks just wasn't part of the plan. E+D didn't even enter any classrooms - like most school shooters do, and they went into the library only because the window view was perfect for their gun battle with the cops. When they were trying to set off the bomb, the cafeteria had a few people in it, but they were not interested, they would walk past students in the hall and even look into door windows of a class of hiding people, but they stopped killing at that point.

I think the failed bombing, and not being able to kill 100 people, and at least one cop is what lost their desire.

Yep. They were failures in what they attempted. We should all remember that more often.

I hope their souls are lurking around and they remember what their plan did and how pathetic they really were.