Columbine, Christianity and all other religions

Possibly in the wrong forum, remove if necessary.

I was just reading some people's views on the new Rachel movie and it got me thinking. How can we still get facts wrong in this day and age?

More so my thinking got sidetracked to when The Bible was written - if we still get major facs wrong now, imagine what inaccuracies were put in there.

Also, in a few hundred years if someone decided to write a New, New Testament, could this particular story make it in there? I'm not overly familiar with the works of The Bible, but aren't most of the stories in there (Old Testament perhaps?) written about tales of following God but not involving Jesus Christ?

Draw_It_White wrote:

Possibly in the wrong forum, remove if necessary.

I was just reading some people's views on the new Rachel movie and it got me thinking. How can we still get facts wrong in this day and age?

More so my thinking got sidetracked to when The Bible was written - if we still get major facs wrong now, imagine what inaccuracies were put in there.

Also, in a few hundred years if someone decided to write a New, New Testament, could this particular story make it in there? I'm not overly familiar with the works of The Bible, but aren't most of the stories in there (Old Testament perhaps?) written about tales of following God but not involving Jesus Christ?

Yes Jesus was not around until the new testament. I don't want to offend any Catholics here but the early Catholics butchered the bible. You can read the Jewish Torah and see some of the things removed. The Torah contains 5 books that are the first 5 books of the Christian bible. And you can see just how many things were removed. There are several Old Testament books that were removed all together. It is a shame to me. I don't think it contains too many inaccuracies persay but I don't think it is the same book that was written those decades ago.

I think those people wanted to "remake" Rachel's death in order to make young people believe in God, Jesus,Bible etc. Lots of teens nowadays have questions and gradually lose their fate because the Bible doesn't make sense to them. If God is that good why didn't he save Rachel? Insted of Rachel, God could have put there a satanist right? But noooo.

The bible is not that pink if you know what I mean. It's full of contradictions and atrocities. They try to prove that christians are hunted down for their beliefs and no matter what happenes you got to have faith cuz Jesus will save you,  blah blah. What annoys me the most is the fact that they view themselves as good people, who follow gods writtings but in the end of the day they are the true LIARS who intentonaly wanted to lie and give fake facts. Guess they don't fear their God at all. Such good christians right?

Nowadays there are tons of religions, new ones and old ones...I think each time someone got high and said "Lets write about my visions, they got to be true"
Religions make people selfish, judgemental and confused (this is just the bad side of it, it has a good side also). Each time a person say to me 'You dont believe in Jesus?OMG. You will be sent to hell and burn for eternity" I can't stop thinking how judgemental they are..Its like they are my God and have the right to judge. Not all of them are like this of course.
Year after year religions lose credibility...It has  been proven that more people become atheists or agnostics. People become more aware
I don't think a third testament will make it in there.  As for the old testament yes, the tales are about God not Jesus.

My opinion.

Nobody knows what went down other than the people involved. It's always going to be like that. Whether it's religion or good old fashion police work, reports and information we get are always created by man. Columbus wasn't even the 1st person to discover America but he's widely known as the man who did. Humans relay information to us, some do it as best as they could and some do not. Sometimes people have agendas to protect themselves and others. It's just the way it is. It's not unreasonable to assume a lot of things were botched regarding this tragedy.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], I think that some of your viewings of Christians have been of not proper Christians. Christians who judge other are completely ignoring the mission that Christians have, that mission being to get as many people to follow Jesus as possible. Now by discouraging people is also what Jesus told us not to do, he told us to try and help people to be saved rather than push them away. I totally understand why people would disagree with religion because too many "Christians" are saying that they are Christians when really they are doing harm to the image of Christianity.

As for saying that Christians view themselves as "good people" this is totally not the case with people who are true followers of Jesus. A true Christian realizes the mistakes and problems that they have in themselves therefore they turn to Jesus to save them and help them to fix their problems.

Too many Christians these days are exactly like you say [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], and that is definitely not the way that God wants people to be.

Kida wrote:

I think those people wanted to "remake" Rachel's death in order to make young people believe in God, Jesus,Bible etc. Lots of teens nowadays have questions and gradually lose their fate because the Bible doesn't make sense to them. If God is that good why didn't he save Rachel? Insted of Rachel, God could have put there a satanist right? But noooo.

The bible is not that pink if you know what I mean. It's full of contradictions and atrocities. They try to prove that christians are hunted down for their beliefs and no matter what happenes you got to have faith cuz Jesus will save you,  blah blah. What annoys me the most is the fact that they view themselves as good people, who follow gods writtings but in the end of the day they are the true LIARS who intentonaly wanted to lie and give fake facts. Guess they don't fear their God at all. Such good christians right?

Nowadays there are tons of religions, new ones and old ones...I think each time someone got high and said "Lets write about my visions, they got to be true"
Religions make people selfish, judgemental and confused (this is just the bad side of it, it has a good side also). Each time a person say to me 'You dont believe in Jesus?OMG. You will be sent to hell and burn for eternity" I can't stop thinking how judgemental they are..Its like they are my God and have the right to judge. Not all of them are like this of course.
Year after year religions lose credibility...It has  been proven that more people become atheists or agnostics. People become more aware
I don't think a third testament will make it in there.  As for the old testament yes, the tales are about God not Jesus.

My opinion.

Kida, you don't understand how God works.
God didn't and wouldn't put any person in death's way at Columbine or anywhere else.
God gave man total free will as he wanted people to freely choose to love him and follow him.
With that freedom man often chooses to do really horrible things and God allows this because of free will but that doesn't mean that their won't be consequences both here on Earth and in the afterlife.God has a plan and is always at work even if mankind can't always see or understand it.
You couldn't understand his plan even if he were to show it to you.It would be like an ant trying to understand a 747.You mentioned Rachel.
Yes, God didn't stop her death but her testimony went around the world hundreds and hundreds of times and thousands of people came to Jesus and were saved because of her life and example.Her story is still told today.
It's the same with Cassie even though the She said Yes story turned out not to be true.People are still inspired by her transformation and her strong faith.We grieve their loss on Earth but nobody who died on 4/20 is grieving their own death anymore.They are in perfect peace and happiness in Heaven.

Draw_It_White wrote:

Possibly in the wrong forum, remove if necessary.

I was just reading some people's views on the new Rachel movie and it got me thinking. How can we still get facts wrong in this day and age?

More so my thinking got sidetracked to when The Bible was written - if we still get major facs wrong now, imagine what inaccuracies were put in there.

Also, in a few hundred years if someone decided to write a New, New Testament, could this particular story make it in there? I'm not overly familiar with the works of The Bible, but aren't most of the stories in there (Old Testament perhaps?) written about tales of following God but not involving Jesus Christ?

There will never be any more of the Bible written.
That's God's final word to man .

Kida wrote:

Year after year religions lose credibility...It has  been proven that more people become atheists or agnostics. People become more aware
I don't think a third testament will make it in there.  As for the old testament yes, the tales are about God not Jesus.
.

I agree with Kida on this.  Religion is dying. I do not foresee a third testament being written.

Freezingmoon wrote:

Kida wrote:

Year after year religions lose credibility...It has  been proven that more people become atheists or agnostics. People become more aware
I don't think a third testament will make it in there.  As for the old testament yes, the tales are about God not Jesus.
.

I agree with Kida on this.  Religion is dying. I do not foresee a third testament being written.

It depends on what you mean by dying.I think more people than not profess some kind of belief in God but do not follow him or lives as he tells them to live.The true believers though will always keep the faith alive.

There are no TRUE BELIEVERS or FREE WILL.
You love god because you fear him. You fear his punishments, you fear hell. How can you love a god who loves you so much but still he's able to punish you. God created everything. You are programmed to be free but still be constrained to do what he wants you to do? I dont get it. If god doesnt aprove murder why he programmed us to be able to do such thing?  Of course, you will get your punishment for this.  If a guy murders your son for example you can blame that guy but in the end of the day was gods fault. He left this act to be ok in our brains. So yes, we can blame him for every bad thing that happened to this earth. People blame Eric for Rachel's death, then blame his parents, blame society, blame human race then blame the creator of all this, God. You are programmed to not eat trees/iron right? Its nothing healthy in this. But in our brains its ok to lie, hurt people...murder, rape
All the religious people i have met told me the same thing "God has a plan for you. He wants to test your." Well God is cruel. In the bible he killed humans (yes, im calling him a murderer) and he was also ok with raping woman etc. This god is full of contradictions and if you think that's just a test to see what kind of person you are....and you see that as acceptable....thats fucked up. Another thing, you have one shot in life right? One chance to live here as a human but still, you can be born mentally retarded. How thses guys can comprehend god? They cant even figure out who they are. But God is ok with this... Thats a useless human. wasted.
I see religion nothing but a brainwashing tool. Fairytails. No facts supporting it only humans who want it to be true.  I think i can write all night about this...
If there is truly a god I hope its not the christian one. Cuz to me, he sounds more like satan.
Im agnostic btw.

Kida wrote:

There are no TRUE BELIEVERS or FREE WILL.
You love god because you fear him. You fear his punishments, you fear hell. How can you love a god who loves you so much but still he's able to punish you. God created everything. You are programmed to be free but still be constrained to do what he wants you to do? I dont get it. If god doesnt aprove murder why he programmed us to be able to do such thing?  Of course, you will get your punishment for this.  If a guy murders your son for example you can blame that guy but in the end of the day was gods fault. He left this act to be ok in our brains. So yes, we can blame him for every bad thing that happened to this earth. People blame Eric for Rachel's death, then blame his parents, blame society, blame human race then blame the creator of all this, God. You are programmed to not eat trees/iron right? Its nothing healthy in this. But in our brains its ok to lie, hurt people...murder, rape
All the religious people i have met told me the same thing "God has a plan for you. He wants to test your." Well God is cruel. In the bible he killed humans (yes, im calling him a murderer) and he was also ok with raping woman etc. This god is full of contradictions and if you think that's just a test to see what kind of person you are....and you see that as acceptable....thats fucked up. Another thing, you have one shot in life right? One chance to live here as a human but still, you can be born mentally retarded. How thses guys can comprehend god? They cant even figure out who they are. But God is ok with this... Thats a useless human. wasted.
I see religion nothing but a brainwashing tool. Fairytails. No facts supporting it only humans who want it to be true.  I think i can write all night about this...
If there is truly a god I hope its not the christian one. Cuz to me, he sounds more like satan.
Im agnostic btw.

I'm with you on all of this.  I was born into a christian family and I identified as a christian until I actually sat down and read the bible in its entirety.  After reading the bible and studying religions from around the world, I became an atheist.

OK so in the beginning everything was good, God's creation was as he wanted it. He created us humans out of his love, much like a couple has love and wants to have a child to love. When Adam and Eve were created he gave them free will, they abused this free will to turn against God and to eat the fruit of the forbidden tree. This is where sin was created. God didn't make them eat that fruit he gave them the choice. Now in the Old Testament God kills people, often innocent people, such as when he kills every first born in Egypt and Noah's great flood etc. This was because there was no hope, there was no Jesus to save them, the world was hopeless. So God decided that the way to show the people the truth was to send his son Jesus to die on the cross for the sin of the world. This is where God was different to how he was in the beginning and how there was now hope and no need to prove to people through other means. As for disabled people, well God is merciful and therefore people who are unable to comprehend God are automatically sent to heaven when they die as they have no distinction between right and wrong.

I do think you are asking the right questions though, nothing wrong with asking what doesn't make sense I applaud you for that.

None of this is true.You have to make a sincere effort to meet God halfway and understand him.
If you're truly against him,he's not going to force anything on you.
I do have free will and exercise it extensively, more often than not to to my detriment.
I love God because of his righteousness and his mercy in my life and the lives of others.
Of course I fear him.It's not an unwise thing to fear the creator of the universe.
God didn't program our brains to do bad things.That's the flesh talking.That's the sinful and rebellious human nature that exists in all of us because of the fall in the Garden.Because Eve went against God and submitted to your enemy Satan in the garden.If you understood what Satan was really like you wouldn't be wishing for God to be like him,believe.He's not the cool, freewheeling dude some people seem to believe he is.Picture the worst human being to ever live and multiply it by about a million and that's him.
Most of the bad things you spoke about above need to be blamed on the pernicious influence of Satan and his demons not God.Along of course again with humans refusing to try to overcome their rebellious and sinful nature.
It may not always seem like it when you look at the terrible things that happen in the world but God loves everyone.God hates all sin and cannot abide sin because he is perfect and Holy but he loves the person.That's why he sent Jesus to die on the cross to provide mankind with a way out, a way to be saved.God longs for a relationship with every person but he will never forces that.If you reject him, he'll let you go your own way even if that ends up in ruin.God wants the best for everyone but because of sin and bad choices people often suffer a great deal of pain and difficulty.I don't know people are born mentally disabled but I can tell you that every life is valuable to God.God probably makes himself known to them in their own way, a way they can understand.
I don't claim to have all the answers.
No man does.Again, there are many things no man could understand now even if God showed them/ revealed them to you.God does not and will not conform to human standards to make people feel happy and comfortable.He knows best and he wants you to seek him so you can realize for yourself this is true.
In the Bible, it says that in the Kingdom we will know and understand everything.

I notice that people often hostile to religion are often only hostile to Christianity and not to pagan religions such as Wicca.
I don't want to preach at you.I can't make you believe anything.I just wanted to present the other side to you.I wish that tsfa would post in this thread.She is better about explain the Christian life than I am.

Falcolus wrote:

OK so in the beginning everything was good, God's creation was as he wanted it. He created us humans out of his love, much like a couple has love and wants to have a child to love. When Adam and Eve were created he gave them free will, they abused this free will to turn against God and to eat the fruit of the forbidden tree. This is where sin was created. God didn't make them eat that fruit he gave them the choice. Now in the Old Testament God kills people, often innocent people, such as when he kills every first born in Egypt and Noah's great flood etc. This was because there was no hope, there was no Jesus to save them, the world was hopeless. So God decided that the way to show the people the truth was to send his son Jesus to die on the cross for the sin of the world. This is where God was different to how he was in the beginning and how there was now hope and no need to prove to people through other means. As for disabled people, well God is merciful and therefore people who are unable to comprehend God are automatically sent to heaven when they die as they have no distinction between right and wrong.

I do think you are asking the right questions though, nothing wrong with asking what doesn't make sense I applaud you for that.

Falcolus,I love your post very much but did you ever come to realize what Eve really did with Satan in the garden of Eden? She did not eat fruit from a tree. Satan took on human form and he seduced her sexually as well as morally.You can imagine what an affront this was to God.
Read this if you are interested.It explains it well

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Oh yes of course, I did miss that part out, I will read that link.

Falcolus.
I was shocked when I learned what truly happened there.
Sadly, after looking around that website ,I see that it seems to be somewhat racist so everyone please just read what the page says about Adam and Eve(because that's absolutely true ) and just ignore the rest.

Falcolus wrote:

OK so in the beginning everything was good, God's creation was as he wanted it. He created us humans out of his love, much like a couple has love and wants to have a child to love. When Adam and Eve were created he gave them free will, they abused this free will to turn against God and to eat the fruit of the forbidden tree. This is where sin was created. God didn't make them eat that fruit he gave them the choice. Now in the Old Testament God kills people, often innocent people, such as when he kills every first born in Egypt and Noah's great flood etc. This was because there was no hope, there was no Jesus to save them, the world was hopeless.

So god gave people free will and then got pissed off when they acted freely? And then punished them? This is manipulative and just doesn't make sense to me.  Why would a loving god do this?

Falcolus wrote:

So God decided that the way to show the people the truth was to send his son Jesus to die on the cross for the sin of the world. This is where God was different to how he was in the beginning and how there was now hope and no need to prove to people through other means.

Why couldn't god just show up and say to everyone, "hey guys.....stop being assholes now. See, i'm real.....you guys should be nice to each other. That would make me very happy."

Falcolus wrote:

As for disabled people, well God is merciful and therefore people who are unable to comprehend God are automatically sent to heaven when they die as they have no distinction between right and wrong.

If god is real, do you think he/she was merciful to eric and dylan? They were obviously very mentally disturbed individuals.

Do you think god would show mercy to a serial killer who repented for his crimes and came to accept the lord into his life? What about an atheist who never accepted god, but was also a good person who never harmed anyone and did good things for people his whole life?

Freezingmoon wrote:

Falcolus wrote:

OK so in the beginning everything was good, God's creation was as he wanted it. He created us humans out of his love, much like a couple has love and wants to have a child to love. When Adam and Eve were created he gave them free will, they abused this free will to turn against God and to eat the fruit of the forbidden tree. This is where sin was created. God didn't make them eat that fruit he gave them the choice. Now in the Old Testament God kills people, often innocent people, such as when he kills every first born in Egypt and Noah's great flood etc. This was because there was no hope, there was no Jesus to save them, the world was hopeless.

So god gave people free will and then got pissed off when they acted freely? And then punished them? This is manipulative and just doesn't make sense to me.  Why would a loving god do this?

Falcolus wrote:

So God decided that the way to show the people the truth was to send his son Jesus to die on the cross for the sin of the world. This is where God was different to how he was in the beginning and how there was now hope and no need to prove to people through other means.

Why couldn't god just show up and say to everyone, "hey guys.....stop being assholes now. See, i'm real.....you guys should be nice to each other. That would make me very happy."

Falcolus wrote:

As for disabled people, well God is merciful and therefore people who are unable to comprehend God are automatically sent to heaven when they die as they have no distinction between right and wrong.

If god is real, do you think he/she was merciful to eric and dylan? They were obviously very mentally disturbed individuals.

Do you think god would show mercy to a serial killer who repented for his crimes and came to accept the lord into his life? What about an atheist who never accepted god, but was also a good person who never harmed anyone and did good things for people his whole life?

Do I think God would forgive a serial killer who repented? Yes. If you read the story of Jesus on the cross you know that he was crucified with 2 other men. 1 of whom was a thief. Jesus asked him if he wanted forgiveness for his sins and he said yes. Jesus then told him he would be with him in Heaven. I think ANYONE regardless of what they do if they repent they are saved. Did Eric and Dylan pray and ask God for forgiveness in their last moments? No one knows. If they did I see no reason at all why they wouldn't be in Heaven.

And Kida, Just off of what you said I have a question. You said "How can you Love a God who loves you so much but is still able to punish you" Based off of that do you love your parents? They love you very much but punished you as a child.

So god intentionally had put an evil tree there, to test Adam and Eve. The thing is...god knows everything. It has been proven in the bible that he knows what is going to happen next. God knew that Eve and Adam would be fooled, he was 100% aware of this but he let everything happening. Where is the love and caring here? Its like watching your kid putting his hand in fire. The fire you created. What you do in this situation? The kid sees the fire as a beautiful thing, he is fooled by it. You as a loving parent have the responsability to protect him but no, you let your kid to burn his hand while you were watching him. Thats not love. That parent should have stop him because he loves him right? THATS HOW LOVE WORKS
God didnt take any action in that situation with Adam and Eve. Where is the love? Boom. Now humans suffer because god didnt prevent anything. He let everything be. I see no love in this act.Maybe I dont understand the words of god but I can understand his actions.
You can say that they had free will to choose and god didnt want to make rules and stuff. Ok. But having free will and in the same time be constrained not to do what god told you not to...its NOT FREE WILL
I see the christian god as  jelous, egotistical and cruel. If God approves something (murder for example) he shall not punish a human who have done it.
Also he is not that powerful as he wants you to think. He was so powerful but still needed jesus to save humanity. He couldnt do it by himself? What?? The christian god seems like a joke.
Im not satisfied with the bible. Its just a bunch of sentences. I strongely believe that religions are man  made. By the laws of the bible every human being is qualified to go burn in "hell". If god is love itself we shall all go to "heaven". After this life we should go there...What if you disapprove him like satan did? You will be send from heaven to hell? cuz I bet he would give you free will in heaven.
We ask questions cuz we see that religion is trying to fool us. So many condratictions...
All religions are based on tales, no facts, nobody died and came back to write if there is hell, god, jesus satan, ra, thor, odin etc.
If people beileve in God that doesnt make him real.

Lizpuff wrote:

Freezingmoon wrote:

Falcolus wrote:

OK so in the beginning everything was good, God's creation was as he wanted it. He created us humans out of his love, much like a couple has love and wants to have a child to love. When Adam and Eve were created he gave them free will, they abused this free will to turn against God and to eat the fruit of the forbidden tree. This is where sin was created. God didn't make them eat that fruit he gave them the choice. Now in the Old Testament God kills people, often innocent people, such as when he kills every first born in Egypt and Noah's great flood etc. This was because there was no hope, there was no Jesus to save them, the world was hopeless.

So god gave people free will and then got pissed off when they acted freely? And then punished them? This is manipulative and just doesn't make sense to me.  Why would a loving god do this?

Falcolus wrote:

So God decided that the way to show the people the truth was to send his son Jesus to die on the cross for the sin of the world. This is where God was different to how he was in the beginning and how there was now hope and no need to prove to people through other means.

Why couldn't god just show up and say to everyone, "hey guys.....stop being assholes now. See, i'm real.....you guys should be nice to each other. That would make me very happy."

Falcolus wrote:

As for disabled people, well God is merciful and therefore people who are unable to comprehend God are automatically sent to heaven when they die as they have no distinction between right and wrong.

If god is real, do you think he/she was merciful to eric and dylan? They were obviously very mentally disturbed individuals.

Do you think god would show mercy to a serial killer who repented for his crimes and came to accept the lord into his life? What about an atheist who never accepted god, but was also a good person who never harmed anyone and did good things for people his whole life?

Do I think God would forgive a serial killer who repented?  Yes.  If you read the story of Jesus on the cross you know that he was crucified with 2 other men.  1 of whom was a thief.  Jesus asked him if he wanted forgiveness for his sins and he said yes.  Jesus then told him he would be with him in Heaven.  I think ANYONE regardless of what they do if they repent they are saved.  Did Eric and Dylan pray and ask God for forgiveness in their last moments?  No one knows.  If they did I see no reason at all why they wouldn't be in Heaven.  

And Kida, Just off of what you said I have a question.  You said "How can you Love a God who loves you so much but is still able to punish you"  Based off of that do you love your parents?  They love you very much but punished you as a child.  

By punish i mean send you to hell for eternity.If he loves everyone he will forgive us no matter what we did, as parents do. Now whats the purpose of hell here?

Kida wrote:

So god intentionally had put an evil tree there, to test Adam and Eve. The thing is...god knows everything. It has been proven in the bible that he knows what is going to happen next. God knew that Eve and Adam would be fooled, he was 100% aware of this but he let everything happening. Where is the love and caring here? Its like watching your kid putting his hand in fire. The fire you created. What you do in this situation? The kid sees the fire as a beautiful thing, he is fooled by it. You as a loving parent have the responsability to protect him but no, you let your kid to burn his hand while you were watching him. Thats not love. That parent should have stop him because he loves him right? THTAS HOW LOVE WORKS
God didnt take any action in that situation with Adam and Eve. Where is the love? Boom. Now humans suffer because god didnt prevent anything. He let everything be. I see no love in this act.Maybe I dont understand the words of god but I can understand his actions.
You can say that they had free will to choose and god didnt want to make rules and stuff. Ok. But having free will and in the same time be constrained not to do what god told you not to...its NOT FREE WILL
I see the christian god as  jelous, egotistical and cruel. If God approves something (murder for example) he shall not punish a human who have done it.
Also he is not that powerful as he wants you to think. He was so powerful but still needed jesus to save humanity. He couldnt do it by himself? What?? The christian god seems like a joke.
Im not satisfied with the bible. Its just a bunch of sentences. I strongely believe that religions are man  made. By the laws of the bible every human being is qualified to go burn in "hell". If god is love itself we shall all go to "heaven". After this life we should go there...What if you disapprove him like satan did? You will be send from heaven to hell? cuz I bet he would give you free will in heaven.
We ask questions cuz we see that religion is trying to fool us. So many condratictions...
All religions are based on tales, no facts, nobody died and came back to write if there is hell, god, jesus satan, ra, thor, odin etc.
If people beileve in God that doesnt make him real.

I am not saying a parent should burn their child by any means. But as a parent myself I know I cannot protect my child for life. If I stand around and put a bubble around her for the first years of her life I am setting her up for more failure later on. Children have to make mistakes. They have to fall. They have to realize they can deal with their own problems on their own. I will certainly be around to help her but I cannot and will not try to shield her from everything. What would she do when she was on her own?

My parents sheltered me for most of my early life. Then I got to college and was utterly LOST. I had no idea how to take care of myself or deal with anything on my own. This encompasses more than touching a hot pan or iron etc but to me it's somewhat of the same idea. At one point you have to let your "kids" be their own person and make their own mistakes. That is a part of life

Lizpuff wrote:

Kida wrote:

So god intentionally had put an evil tree there, to test Adam and Eve. The thing is...god knows everything. It has been proven in the bible that he knows what is going to happen next. God knew that Eve and Adam would be fooled, he was 100% aware of this but he let everything happening. Where is the love and caring here? Its like watching your kid putting his hand in fire. The fire you created. What you do in this situation? The kid sees the fire as a beautiful thing, he is fooled by it. You as a loving parent have the responsability to protect him but no, you let your kid to burn his hand while you were watching him. Thats not love. That parent should have stop him because he loves him right? THTAS HOW LOVE WORKS
God didnt take any action in that situation with Adam and Eve. Where is the love? Boom. Now humans suffer because god didnt prevent anything. He let everything be. I see no love in this act.Maybe I dont understand the words of god but I can understand his actions.
You can say that they had free will to choose and god didnt want to make rules and stuff. Ok. But having free will and in the same time be constrained not to do what god told you not to...its NOT FREE WILL
I see the christian god as  jelous, egotistical and cruel. If God approves something (murder for example) he shall not punish a human who have done it.
Also he is not that powerful as he wants you to think. He was so powerful but still needed jesus to save humanity. He couldnt do it by himself? What?? The christian god seems like a joke.
Im not satisfied with the bible. Its just a bunch of sentences. I strongely believe that religions are man  made. By the laws of the bible every human being is qualified to go burn in "hell". If god is love itself we shall all go to "heaven". After this life we should go there...What if you disapprove him like satan did? You will be send from heaven to hell? cuz I bet he would give you free will in heaven.
We ask questions cuz we see that religion is trying to fool us. So many condratictions...
All religions are based on tales, no facts, nobody died and came back to write if there is hell, god, jesus satan, ra, thor, odin etc.
If people beileve in God that doesnt make him real.

I am not saying a parent should burn their child by any means.  But as a parent myself I know I cannot protect my child for life.  If I stand around and put a bubble around her for the first years of her life I am setting her up for more failure later on.  Children have to make mistakes.  They have to fall.  They have to realize they can deal with their own problems on their own. I will certainly be around to help her but I cannot and will not try to shield her from everything.  What would she do when she was on her own?  

My parents sheltered me for most of my early life.  Then I got to college and was utterly LOST.  I had no idea how to take care of myself or deal with anything on my own.  This encompasses more than touching a hot pan or iron etc but to me it's somewhat of the same idea.  At one point you have to let your "kids" be their own person and make their own mistakes.  That is a part of life

So God was incompetent. He failed his children because he wasnt there for them. So in the end of the day god is not as powerful as the bible describes him to be. Excuses.

Kida wrote:

Lizpuff wrote:

Kida wrote:

So god intentionally had put an evil tree there, to test Adam and Eve. The thing is...god knows everything. It has been proven in the bible that he knows what is going to happen next. God knew that Eve and Adam would be fooled, he was 100% aware of this but he let everything happening. Where is the love and caring here? Its like watching your kid putting his hand in fire. The fire you created. What you do in this situation? The kid sees the fire as a beautiful thing, he is fooled by it. You as a loving parent have the responsability to protect him but no, you let your kid to burn his hand while you were watching him. Thats not love. That parent should have stop him because he loves him right? THTAS HOW LOVE WORKS
God didnt take any action in that situation with Adam and Eve. Where is the love? Boom. Now humans suffer because god didnt prevent anything. He let everything be. I see no love in this act.Maybe I dont understand the words of god but I can understand his actions.
You can say that they had free will to choose and god didnt want to make rules and stuff. Ok. But having free will and in the same time be constrained not to do what god told you not to...its NOT FREE WILL
I see the christian god as  jelous, egotistical and cruel. If God approves something (murder for example) he shall not punish a human who have done it.
Also he is not that powerful as he wants you to think. He was so powerful but still needed jesus to save humanity. He couldnt do it by himself? What?? The christian god seems like a joke.
Im not satisfied with the bible. Its just a bunch of sentences. I strongely believe that religions are man  made. By the laws of the bible every human being is qualified to go burn in "hell". If god is love itself we shall all go to "heaven". After this life we should go there...What if you disapprove him like satan did? You will be send from heaven to hell? cuz I bet he would give you free will in heaven.
We ask questions cuz we see that religion is trying to fool us. So many condratictions...
All religions are based on tales, no facts, nobody died and came back to write if there is hell, god, jesus satan, ra, thor, odin etc.
If people beileve in God that doesnt make him real.

I am not saying a parent should burn their child by any means.  But as a parent myself I know I cannot protect my child for life.  If I stand around and put a bubble around her for the first years of her life I am setting her up for more failure later on.  Children have to make mistakes.  They have to fall.  They have to realize they can deal with their own problems on their own. I will certainly be around to help her but I cannot and will not try to shield her from everything.  What would she do when she was on her own?  

My parents sheltered me for most of my early life.  Then I got to college and was utterly LOST.  I had no idea how to take care of myself or deal with anything on my own.  This encompasses more than touching a hot pan or iron etc but to me it's somewhat of the same idea.  At one point you have to let your "kids" be their own person and make their own mistakes.  That is a part of life

So God was incompetent. He failed his children because he wasnt there for them. So in the end of the day god is not as powerful as the bible describes him to be. Excuses.

I am failing to see the logic here. How does this make someone or God incompetent? God is there for everyone but he lets us make mistakes. I for one believe in miracles and it doesn't take the parting of the sea for me to see it. There are little miracles every single day that restore my faith. I fail in life a lot. Bad things have happened to me. I have been depressed and hurt and abused but on the flip side I have been happy and loved and felt a tremendous amount of joy.

There are good and bad things in life. Anyway...I am not a bible basher...I am not going to sit here and try to convince people of what I believe because in the end that is again everyone else's choice. I know what I believe and there is no soul on this Earth that can convince me otherwise.

Lizpuff wrote:

Kida wrote:

Lizpuff wrote:

Kida wrote:

So god intentionally had put an evil tree there, to test Adam and Eve. The thing is...god knows everything. It has been proven in the bible that he knows what is going to happen next. God knew that Eve and Adam would be fooled, he was 100% aware of this but he let everything happening. Where is the love and caring here? Its like watching your kid putting his hand in fire. The fire you created. What you do in this situation? The kid sees the fire as a beautiful thing, he is fooled by it. You as a loving parent have the responsability to protect him but no, you let your kid to burn his hand while you were watching him. Thats not love. That parent should have stop him because he loves him right? THTAS HOW LOVE WORKS
God didnt take any action in that situation with Adam and Eve. Where is the love? Boom. Now humans suffer because god didnt prevent anything. He let everything be. I see no love in this act.Maybe I dont understand the words of god but I can understand his actions.
You can say that they had free will to choose and god didnt want to make rules and stuff. Ok. But having free will and in the same time be constrained not to do what god told you not to...its NOT FREE WILL
I see the christian god as  jelous, egotistical and cruel. If God approves something (murder for example) he shall not punish a human who have done it.
Also he is not that powerful as he wants you to think. He was so powerful but still needed jesus to save humanity. He couldnt do it by himself? What?? The christian god seems like a joke.
Im not satisfied with the bible. Its just a bunch of sentences. I strongely believe that religions are man  made. By the laws of the bible every human being is qualified to go burn in "hell". If god is love itself we shall all go to "heaven". After this life we should go there...What if you disapprove him like satan did? You will be send from heaven to hell? cuz I bet he would give you free will in heaven.
We ask questions cuz we see that religion is trying to fool us. So many condratictions...
All religions are based on tales, no facts, nobody died and came back to write if there is hell, god, jesus satan, ra, thor, odin etc.
If people beileve in God that doesnt make him real.

I am not saying a parent should burn their child by any means.  But as a parent myself I know I cannot protect my child for life.  If I stand around and put a bubble around her for the first years of her life I am setting her up for more failure later on.  Children have to make mistakes.  They have to fall.  They have to realize they can deal with their own problems on their own. I will certainly be around to help her but I cannot and will not try to shield her from everything.  What would she do when she was on her own?  

My parents sheltered me for most of my early life.  Then I got to college and was utterly LOST.  I had no idea how to take care of myself or deal with anything on my own.  This encompasses more than touching a hot pan or iron etc but to me it's somewhat of the same idea.  At one point you have to let your "kids" be their own person and make their own mistakes.  That is a part of life

So God was incompetent. He failed his children because he wasnt there for them. So in the end of the day god is not as powerful as the bible describes him to be. Excuses.

I am failing to see the logic here.  How does this make someone or God incompetent?  God is there for everyone but he lets us make mistakes.  I for one believe in miracles and it doesn't take the parting of the sea for me to see it.  There are little miracles every single day that restore my faith.  I fail in life a lot.  Bad things have happened to me.  I have  been depressed and hurt and abused but on the flip side I have been happy and loved and felt a tremendous amount of joy.  

There are good and bad things in life.  Anyway...I am not a bible basher...I am not going to sit here and try to convince people of what I believe because in the end that is again everyone else's choice.  I know what I believe and there is no soul on this Earth that can convince me otherwise.

You said that parents are not able to prevent any bad thing that happenes to their child. But we talk about god here. He knew that his children would fell and he let that happen. If you love your child and if you know that something bad is going to happen to them you would try to prevent it, but god let satan do his thing. God is evil here.
So god aproves mistakes. He programmed us to make sins. Then he punishes you for making them. If he didnt want you to do some he wouldnt have approved them when he created us.
My point here is: The christian god is man made, Its an incompetent/evil god who programmed humans to have free will but still constrained them. If there is a god its not like this.

I will give you some of that. God himself can be almost ambivalent. He lets people what they want and if that hurts them so be it. But that is why Jesus exists. Jesus is Love. He is our savior. He came to save the world. He cannot stop anyone from making bad decisions but he is there to forgive you and lift you up after.

Is there a painting that doesn't have an artist? Is there a building that didn't have an architect? Is there anything existent in this world that didn't have someone who designed it or made it? No. How can we possibly think that people just came out of nowhere? That no one designed us? That no one made us who we are?

This always makes me think of the Coca Cola on a rock theory. Coca Cola didn't just mysteriously form upon a rock in the middle of nowhere. Human beings didn't just pop out of a speck of dust. There is a God and he is not something anyone made up.

I don't think God is anything our human minds can understand. When I die I will know the real truth. But for now I am constrained by things I don't quite understand. A lot of people cannot live without knowing everything. But we will never know everything. People have asked me to prove that there is a God. I always ask them to prove to me there isn't a God.

Why would a loving god allow us to make mistakes and then punish us for them for all of eternity? I just don't understand that.  If god wanted us to be perfect and holy, then why not just make us that way? What's up with all the weird crazy stuff about Jesus and the brutal crucifixion of Jesus and Jesus rising from the dead all that nonsense? Why not just make people the way you want them to be? Why make us flawed and then use death and destruction to teach us a lesson?  That sounds megalomaniacal.

If god is all knowing and omniscient, but he gave us free will, then surely he knows what we're going to do even before we actually do it.

The concept of free will completely contradicts god's omniscience. If god knows what we're going to do, then free will doesn't exist.  If free will does exist, then god is not omniscient. If god knows we're going to to sin, and he allows us to do so, then this is just twisted and manipulative.  

If god has to the power to intervene and perform miracles, then where was he during NBK? Was it really necessary to allow a bunch of innocent kids to be killed to teach humanity a lesson.....yet again? Is there not a better way to get your word across than through murder and destruction?

Gee, eric and dylan sure weren't lying when they said they wanted to be god-like.

Lizpuff wrote:

I will give you some of that.  God himself can be almost ambivalent.  He lets people what they want and if that hurts them so be it.  But that is why Jesus exists.  Jesus is Love.  He is our savior.  He came to save the world.  He cannot stop anyone from making bad decisions but he is there to forgive you and lift you up after.  

He can perform miracles, but he can't prevent people from doing bad things?

Lizpuff wrote:

Is there a painting that doesn't have an artist?  Is there a building that didn't have an architect?  Is there anything existent in this world that didn't have someone who designed it or made it?  No.  How can we possibly think that people just came out of nowhere?  That no one designed us?  That no one made us who we are?   

Then who made god?
 

Lizpuff wrote:

 People have asked me to prove that there is a God.  I always ask them to prove to me there isn't a God.  

I can't prove that unicorns don't exist, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they do exist.  When someone claims something to be true, then the burden of proof is on them.

Lizpuff wrote:

I will give you some of that.  God himself can be almost ambivalent.  He lets people what they want and if that hurts them so be it.  But that is why Jesus exists.  Jesus is Love.  He is our savior.  He came to save the world.  He cannot stop anyone from making bad decisions but he is there to forgive you and lift you up after.  

Is there a painting that doesn't have an artist?  Is there a building that didn't have an architect?  Is there anything existent in this world that didn't have someone who designed it or made it?  No.  How can we possibly think that people just came out of nowhere?  That no one designed us?  That no one made us who we are?  

This always makes me think of the Coca Cola on a rock theory.  Coca Cola didn't just mysteriously form upon a rock in the middle of nowhere.  Human beings didn't just pop out of a speck of dust.  There is a God and he is not something anyone made up.  

I don't think God is anything our human minds can understand.  When I die I will know the real truth.  But for now I am constrained by things I don't quite understand.  A lot of people cannot live without knowing everything.  But we will never know everything.  People have asked me to prove that there is a God.  I always ask them to prove to me there isn't a God.  

In my opinion jesus points out how powerless  the christian god is. If he was truly a god he would have do what jesus did. He was not able to prove himself as god if he had not created jesus? Its like he was not able do forgive humans without jesus...  But then this cruel god punishes his son, sending him on earth, make him suffer for the sins of others...He was not able to prevent anything? He was not willing to? Thats not godlike to me.


I have no right to say that god doesnt exist ( i speak about a stronger being, a creator not the christian god)
I totally agree with you here.
Im agnostic as i said before.
We will know the truth when we die thats for sure.

Freezingmoon wrote:

Lizpuff wrote:

I will give you some of that.  God himself can be almost ambivalent.  He lets people what they want and if that hurts them so be it.  But that is why Jesus exists.  Jesus is Love.  He is our savior.  He came to save the world.  He cannot stop anyone from making bad decisions but he is there to forgive you and lift you up after.  

He can perform miracles, but he can't prevent people from doing bad things?

Lizpuff wrote:

Is there a painting that doesn't have an artist?  Is there a building that didn't have an architect?  Is there anything existent in this world that didn't have someone who designed it or made it?  No.  How can we possibly think that people just came out of nowhere?  That no one designed us?  That no one made us who we are?   

Then who made god?
 

Lizpuff wrote:

 People have asked me to prove that there is a God.  I always ask them to prove to me there isn't a God.  

I can't prove that unicorns don't exist, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they do exist.  When someone claims something to be true, then the burden of proof is on them.

The unicorn thing makes me laugh just a little bit. Not necessarily a unicorn but look at all the crap at the bottom of the ocean! There are things down there that no one knows about. So who knows perhaps a unicorn is down there. I can't prove either way on the unicorn topic but since I cannot prove they don't exist they certainly might.

Simply put I don't believe in atheists.

Kida wrote:

Lizpuff wrote:

I will give you some of that.  God himself can be almost ambivalent.  He lets people what they want and if that hurts them so be it.  But that is why Jesus exists.  Jesus is Love.  He is our savior.  He came to save the world.  He cannot stop anyone from making bad decisions but he is there to forgive you and lift you up after.  

Is there a painting that doesn't have an artist?  Is there a building that didn't have an architect?  Is there anything existent in this world that didn't have someone who designed it or made it?  No.  How can we possibly think that people just came out of nowhere?  That no one designed us?  That no one made us who we are?  

This always makes me think of the Coca Cola on a rock theory.  Coca Cola didn't just mysteriously form upon a rock in the middle of nowhere.  Human beings didn't just pop out of a speck of dust.  There is a God and he is not something anyone made up.  

I don't think God is anything our human minds can understand.  When I die I will know the real truth.  But for now I am constrained by things I don't quite understand.  A lot of people cannot live without knowing everything.  But we will never know everything.  People have asked me to prove that there is a God.  I always ask them to prove to me there isn't a God.  

In my opinion jesus points out how powerless  the christian god is. If he was truly a god he would have do what jesus did. He was not able to prove himself as god if he had not created jesus? Its like he was not able do forgive humans without jesus...  But then this cruel god punishes his son, sending him on earth, make him suffer for the sins of others...He was not able to prevent anything? He was not willing to? Thats not godlike to me.


I have no right to say that god doesnt exist ( i speak about a stronger being, a creator not the christian god)
I totally agree with you here.
Im agnostic as i said before.
We will know the truth when we die thats for sure.

Agreed. When we die we will all know

Freezingmoon wrote:

Falcolus wrote:

OK so in the beginning everything was good, God's creation was as he wanted it. He created us humans out of his love, much like a couple has love and wants to have a child to love. When Adam and Eve were created he gave them free will, they abused this free will to turn against God and to eat the fruit of the forbidden tree. This is where sin was created. God didn't make them eat that fruit he gave them the choice. Now in the Old Testament God kills people, often innocent people, such as when he kills every first born in Egypt and Noah's great flood etc. This was because there was no hope, there was no Jesus to save them, the world was hopeless.

So god gave people free will and then got pissed off when they acted freely? And then punished them? This is manipulative and just doesn't make sense to me.  Why would a loving god do this?

Falcolus wrote:

So God decided that the way to show the people the truth was to send his son Jesus to die on the cross for the sin of the world. This is where God was different to how he was in the beginning and how there was now hope and no need to prove to people through other means.

Why couldn't god just show up and say to everyone, "hey guys.....stop being assholes now. See, i'm real.....you guys should be nice to each other. That would make me very happy."

Falcolus wrote:

As for disabled people, well God is merciful and therefore people who are unable to comprehend God are automatically sent to heaven when they die as they have no distinction between right and wrong.

If god is real, do you think he/she was merciful to eric and dylan? They were obviously very mentally disturbed individuals.

Do you think god would show mercy to a serial killer who repented for his crimes and came to accept the lord into his life? What about an atheist who never accepted god, but was also a good person who never harmed anyone and did good things for people his whole life?

Just because God gives free will doesn't mean their aren't often bad consequences to an action.The Bible says that sin is pleasurable only for a season.God laid down guidelines for human kind for our own good,even though people don't often realize it.The sin that seems so much fun is actually damaging you even though it may take a long time for you to see and realize the damage.
Most people's parents love them but if they act wrongly they either punish them or let them face the consequences of their actions which can be very painful.It's the same with God as he is our heavenly Father.
God already was here in the flesh in the person of his son Jesus.Jesus was God made flesh.Most people at least believe he existed but that's not enough for a lot of people to believe and follow God.
I don't know if God showing up in the sky right now would make any difference if the life and sacrifice of Christ for us didn't.
Although the Bible does say that when Christ returns he will split the eastern sky and all men will see him, but then his return will signal the end of the world and the final battle so the world's time will effectively be over then.


Yes, I do believe God had mercy on Eric and Dylan.There was a thread here a year ,year and a half ago now here where I explained my beliefs on this quite extensively.

God is almost always willing to forgive anyone who sincerely repents and asks to be saved.
As far as your other question goes,I cannot say for sure.I think it would depend on many circumstances of the atheists life.

All I can tell anyone is that I know God and Christ are real.God has moved in my life so many times where there is no other explanation.He has communicated with me.I have heard his voice.He brought me up out pf a horrible pit.Now the skeptic will say that this is my wishful thinking or coincidence or imagination but for those who have experienced their presence and have a relationship with them there is no doubt they are real.

PaintItBlack wrote:

Freezingmoon wrote:

Falcolus wrote:

OK so in the beginning everything was good, God's creation was as he wanted it. He created us humans out of his love, much like a couple has love and wants to have a child to love. When Adam and Eve were created he gave them free will, they abused this free will to turn against God and to eat the fruit of the forbidden tree. This is where sin was created. God didn't make them eat that fruit he gave them the choice. Now in the Old Testament God kills people, often innocent people, such as when he kills every first born in Egypt and Noah's great flood etc. This was because there was no hope, there was no Jesus to save them, the world was hopeless.

So god gave people free will and then got pissed off when they acted freely? And then punished them? This is manipulative and just doesn't make sense to me.  Why would a loving god do this?

Falcolus wrote:

So God decided that the way to show the people the truth was to send his son Jesus to die on the cross for the sin of the world. This is where God was different to how he was in the beginning and how there was now hope and no need to prove to people through other means.

Why couldn't god just show up and say to everyone, "hey guys.....stop being assholes now. See, i'm real.....you guys should be nice to each other. That would make me very happy."

Falcolus wrote:

As for disabled people, well God is merciful and therefore people who are unable to comprehend God are automatically sent to heaven when they die as they have no distinction between right and wrong.

If god is real, do you think he/she was merciful to eric and dylan? They were obviously very mentally disturbed individuals.

Do you think god would show mercy to a serial killer who repented for his crimes and came to accept the lord into his life? What about an atheist who never accepted god, but was also a good person who never harmed anyone and did good things for people his whole life?

Just because God gives free will doesn't mean their aren't often bad consequences to an action.The Bible says that sin is pleasurable only for a season.God laid down guidelines for human kind for our own good,even though people don't often realize it.The sin that seems so much fun is actually damaging you even though it may take a long time for you to see and realize the damage.
Most people's parents love them but if they act wrongly they either punish them or let them face the consequences of their actions which can be very painful.It's the same with God as he is our heavenly Father.
God already was here in the flesh in the person of his son Jesus.Jesus was God made flesh.Most people at least believe he existed but that's not enough for a lot of people to believe and follow God.
I don't know if God showing up in the sky right now would make any difference  if the life and sacrifice of Christ for us didn't.
Although the Bible does say that when Christ returns he will split the eastern sky and all men will see him, but then his return will signal the end of the world and the final battle so the world's time will effectively be over then.


Yes, I do believe God had mercy on Eric and Dylan.There was a thread here a year ,year and a half ago now here where I explained my beliefs on this quite extensively.

God is almost always willing to forgive anyone who sincerely repents and asks to be saved.
As far as your other question goes,I cannot say for sure.I think it would depend on many circumstances of the atheists life.

My personal favorite argument. While I was reading Dawkins' God Delusion the question emerged in my mind: If God is all knowing and knows the future, He knows whether I will convert to Him or not. Changes are high that I will remain an atheist from my knowing, but only God knows for sure, because in His omniscience He knows the future absolutely. Now why would it be necessary to convert me if He allready knows the outcome!? Why should I be born in the first place if in His omniscience I will remain an atheist throughout life, and therefore will spend an eternity in hell for that matter. Isn't that immensely cruel!? That is a great contradiction, think about it!Since it is abiously inconceivable that all religions can be right the most reasonable conculsion is that they are all wrong.

Now I'll just quote Christopher Hitchens cuz I'm kinda lazy to make a summary.
“Let's say that the consensus is that our species, being the higher primates, Homo Sapiens, has been on the planet for at least 100,000 years, maybe more. Francis Collins says maybe 100,000. Richard Dawkins thinks maybe a quarter-of-a-million. I'll take 100,000. In order to be a Christian, you have to believe that for 98,000 years, our species suffered and died, most of its children dying in childbirth, most other people having a life expectancy of about 25 years, dying of their teeth. Famine, struggle, bitterness, war, suffering, misery, all of that for 98,000 years.
Heaven watches this with complete indifference. And then 2000 years ago, thinks 'That's enough of that. It's time to intervene,' and the best way to do this would be by condemning someone to a human sacrifice somewhere in the less literate parts of the Middle East. Don't lets appeal to the Chinese, for example, where people can read and study evidence and have a civilization. Let's go to the desert and have another revelation there. This is nonsense. It can't be believed by a thinking person.
Why am I glad this is the case? To get to the point of the wrongness of Christianity, because I think the teachings of Christianity are immoral. The central one is the most immoral of all, and that is the one of vicarious redemption. You can throw your sins onto somebody else, vulgarly known as scapegoating. In fact, originating as scapegoating in the same area, the same desert. I can pay your debt if I love you. I can serve your term in prison if I love you very much. I can volunteer to do that. I can't take your sins away, because I can't abolish your responsibility, and I shouldn't offer to do so. Your responsibility has to stay with you. There's no vicarious redemption. There very probably, in fact, is no redemption at all. It's just a part of wish-thinking, and I don't think wish-thinking is good for people either.
It even manages to pollute the central question, the word I just employed, the most important word of all: the word love, by making love compulsory, by saying you MUST love. You must love your neighbour as yourself, something you can't actually do. You'll always fall short, so you can always be found guilty. By saying you must love someone who you also must fear. That's to say a supreme being, an eternal father, someone of whom you must be afraid, but you must love him, too. If you fail in this duty, you're again a wretched sinner. This is not mentally or morally or intellectually healthy.
And that brings me to the final objection - I'll condense it, Dr. Orlafsky - which is, this is a totalitarian system. If there was a God who could do these things and demand these things of us, and he was eternal and unchanging, we'd be living under a dictatorship from which there is no appeal, and one that can never change and one that knows our thoughts and can convict us of thought crime, and condemn us to eternal punishment for actions that we are condemned in advance to be taking. All this in the round, and I could say more, it's an excellent thing that we have absolutely no reason to believe any of it to be true.”

No matter how much you pray, good and bad things will happen to you. Look at the horible things that the Bible describes, the bad things God allowed and DID. You Christians see and believe only what you want to.
I think that the Christian God is incompetent, powerless and wanted to be praised all the time. If the Christian God existed he would have programmed us to pray for eternity. There is no free well you can check my last posts. I dont want to be rude or something but ....this God sounds like a human with problems.

Have you ever wonder why the most brightes minds in the world are not religious?

The bible is the only book that acknoledges Jesus. Fact. So how can you know he existed? ...Oh...Feelings and a book I get it. LOL And If God is Jesus why he needed a human body on earth to do such things? Oh..maybe he can't do everything...he wasn't able as it seems. This Christian God is a joke. Don't even start with "You dont understand God".
If he wants to be acknoledge he's not doing a good job at all.

I'm sorry, I only believe in micro evolution not macro evolution so Hitchens argument is lost on me.
It's up to every person to decide what they believe.We could sit here and go around for months with this debate about God.Why this?Why that?Why not this?Why not that and at the end of it, I honestly do not believe anything more would be accomplished or any more understanding would be brought forth.
I think I've said about all I can say.I think, its like anything else in that you have to be somewhat open to it and give it a chance to see if there is anything to it.
If you go into studying the Bible and deciding its all a bunch of superstitious made up bs and try to approach God thinking he doesn't exist or he's full of bs or cruel or whatever, chances are you will get nothing from it and will get nowhere.
I do hope that you believe what you do about all religions, not just Christianity because you know Pagans have different Gods, so do Hindus.

I would like to recommend some books if anyone is sincerely interested in reading further.I have read all these books and they are definitely worthwhile .I especially recommend the Howard Storm book for an atheist turned believer perspective.The unexpected journey recounts the stories of many who turned to God from other religions or from no religion at all.



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