Something that proves Cullen is an idiot

Psychopaths are renowned for their hallmark tendency: Lack of emotion.

Eric constantly displayed the opposite; fleeting emotions circulating around his lack of companionship, anger and hatred towards those that opposed him, and even an element of self-hatred that is very evident in the manner he committed suicide, or even his self-berating comments in his diary: "not that Eric KID".

People with Antisocial Personality Disorder only kill themselves if they are close to being caught, or to escape punishment but they avoid brutal ways of ending their life. They certainly wouldn't blow off the top of their head. A true psychopath wouldn't care about companionship either - they wouldn't need to because they would/do always have a large circle of friends. Eric didn't even have his OWN friends - all of his friends/acquaintances were associates of Dylan, who was his one true friend. A psychopath wouldn't wait over a year to get their first taste of murder - once they have it in their head that they are going to go out and kill, they wouldn't be able to control themselves for such a prolonged period of time. Yes, I am aware psychopaths in the past have gone years between such crimes, but in many cases it's because they have gotten better at cleaning up the crime scene or leaving a body/evidence behind, essentially they have gotten better at turning murders into simple "missing persons" cases. That is until they get sloppy; which is precisely why they are caught.

Page 25 in Peter Langmans book Why Kids Kill  "Psychopaths also have significant difficulty managing their anger."

There was a lot more going on with Eric than just being an emotionless robot.

Lifetime wrote:

Page 25 in Peter Langmans book Why Kids Kill  "Psychopaths also have significant difficulty managing their anger."

There was a lot more going on with Eric than just being an emotionless robot.

So do many other disorders. Anger certainly isn't the hallmark trait of psychopathy - deception and manipulation is. Anger can be associated with disorders like Borderline Personality Disorder or even Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

And how do you explain Eric's self-hatred? Like I've said, a psychopath wouldn't go to such extreme lengths to end their life, nor would they say things like "I pick on people that remind me of myself".

I take a lot of issues with Langman as well with his assumptions/assertions.

Eric was not a psychopath. But I bet he would have loved Cullen's book, Cullen portrays him exactly how he wanted to be portrayed: the psychopathic mastermind behind Columbine.

Great post,Ivan.I agree.

Ivan wrote:

Lifetime wrote:

Page 25 in Peter Langmans book Why Kids Kill  "Psychopaths also have significant difficulty managing their anger."

There was a lot more going on with Eric than just being an emotionless robot.

So do many other disorders. Anger certainly isn't the hallmark trait of psychopathy - deception and manipulation is. Anger can be associated with disorders like Borderline Personality Disorder or even Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

And how do you explain Eric's self-hatred? Like I've said, a psychopath wouldn't go to such extreme lengths to end their life, nor would they say things like "I pick on people that remind me of myself".

And how do you explain Eric's "god like" feelings about himself? I hate to act like an arm chair psychologist but maybe were running into some form of dissociative personality disorder? How else would you explain his wanting (or feeling) of being god like and then suddenly admit his problem with his self esteem? It seems like the god like perception he had of himself while he was locked away in his parents basement at night didn't quite match up with how he felt about himself around his peers.

As far as the suicidal psychopath goes, lets think about that for a moment. Why would someone with such a high opinion of him self blow the top of his head of like Eric did? He loved himself greatly right? Well since I'm not that smart I decided to see what a quick Google search would bring up and sure enough the very first article that came up was this:

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"The narcissistic element of psychopathic behavior, however, is intriguing. On the one hand, it is hard to imagine someone who thinks so highly of themselves wanting to end their own life, but on the other hand if environmental and social constraints stem their self-serving desires, then perhaps life becomes not worth living."

And you're right. Most psychopaths don't use such extreme measures to end their lives. Most do it by hanging.

The moment Eric opened fire at Columbine that day his life came to end. Considering he already felt trapped in his life, whether by suicide or death by cop, Eric wasn't about to spend the rest of his life truly locked up.

Lifetime wrote:

Ivan wrote:

Lifetime wrote:

Page 25 in Peter Langmans book Why Kids Kill  "Psychopaths also have significant difficulty managing their anger."

There was a lot more going on with Eric than just being an emotionless robot.

So do many other disorders. Anger certainly isn't the hallmark trait of psychopathy - deception and manipulation is. Anger can be associated with disorders like Borderline Personality Disorder or even Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

And how do you explain Eric's self-hatred? Like I've said, a psychopath wouldn't go to such extreme lengths to end their life, nor would they say things like "I pick on people that remind me of myself".

And how do you explain Eric's "god like" feelings about himself? I hate to act like an arm chair psychologist but maybe were running into some form of dissociative personality disorder? How else would you explain his wanting (or feeling) of being god like and then suddenly admit his problem with his self esteem? It seems like the god like perception he had of himself while he was locked away in his parents basement at night didn't quite match up with how he felt about himself around his peers.

As far as the suicidal psychopath goes, lets think about that for a moment. Why would someone with such a high opinion of him self blow the top of his head of like Eric did? He loved himself greatly right? Well since I'm not that smart I decided to see what a quick Google search would bring up and sure enough the very first article that came up was this:

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"The narcissistic element of psychopathic behavior, however, is intriguing. On the one hand, it is hard to imagine someone who thinks so highly of themselves wanting to end their own life, but on the other hand if environmental and social constraints stem their self-serving desires, then perhaps life becomes not worth living."

And you're right. Most psychopaths don't use such extreme measures to end their lives. Most do it by hanging.

The moment Eric opened fire at Columbine that day his life came to end. Considering he already felt trapped in his life, whether by suicide or death by cop, Eric wasn't about to spend the rest of his life truly locked up.

Personally I think Eric had a very thin skin, he felt he was too good to be picked on essentially. I'd lean more toward Eric being a narcissist than a flat-out psychopath.

I believe the attack was the culmination of a narcissists neglect for adoration. He felt he deserved better, but that doesn't mean he was treated the worst out of the school like Brooks portrays. I'm sure the kids Eric bullied himself were lower on the totem pole than he was, but he wanted "jock" like status he couldn't get being he was so little and scrawny.

There is just one thing that bothers me about Eric that Langman didn't really touch up on (or maybe he did and I just don't remember.) How could someone be a narcissist and at the same time, have low self esteem? Could it be that Eric's feelings or want of being god like be a defense from his low self esteem? I'm wondering if his constant referral of him self as "Reb" was really an alter ego he created for himself. Who knows, maybe Eric would have started his own fight club.

I might even e-mail Mr. Langman and ask him just to see if I get a response.

I had a double post on accident

Lifetime wrote:

There is just one thing that bothers me about Eric that Langman didn't really touch up on (or maybe he did and I just don't remember.) How could someone be a narcissist and at the same time, have low self esteem? Could it be that Eric's feelings or want of being god like be a defense from his low self esteem? I'm wondering if his constant referral of him self as "Reb" was really an alter ego he created for himself. Who knows, maybe Eric would have started his own fight club.

I might even e-mail Mr. Langman and ask him just to see if I get a response.

I think you are right on that point. Reb was the guy that Eric wanted to be. Reb was fearless, strong, and feared by others. He was completely the opposite from who Eric thought himself to be. The Reb persona allowed Eric to be someone else and do things that the "eric" side of him wouldn't do.

And another thing. Dylan always referred to him as Eric. Over and over he just calls him Eric while Eric refers to Dylan as Vodka. Well on the 20, Dylan called Eric Reb. Because Eric was not committing NBK. Reb was.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], wow.... That's interesting about Dylan not referring to Eric as Reb until 4/20. I never even realized that. The whole Reb/Vodka thing is interesting in itself.  I believe they both truly hated the way in which their peers viewed them.  They half loved themselves and half hated themselves.  They were frustrated that their peers didn't see them the way they saw themselves.

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Yea it's interesting to me. Dylan referred to himself as Vodka very seldomly himself. And one of the times that he did he talked about killing "Vodka" because he was a poor SOB. So I don't think the Vodka persona meant the same thing to Dylan as Reb did to Eric.

I think the Vodka persona to Dylan was pretty much just as pathetic and hated as the Dylan persona for him.

Kida wrote:

Eric was not a psychopath. But I bet he would have loved Cullen's book, Cullen portrays him exactly how he wanted to be portrayed:  the psychopathic mastermind behind Columbine.

Indeed!!!

Lizpuff wrote:

I had a double post on accident  

That's OK, it'll bump up your postings on the Stats page lmfao

"Everyone is always making fun of me because of how I look, how fucking weak I am and shit, well I will get you all back: ultimate fucking revenge here. you people could have shown more respect, treated me better, asked for my knowledge or guidence more, treated me more like senior, and maybe I wouldn’t have been as ready to tear your fucking heads off. then again, I have always hated how I looked, I make fun of people who look like me, sometimes without even thinking sometimes just because I want to rip on myself. Thats where a lot of my hate grows from, the fact that I have practically no selfesteem, especially concerning girls and looks and such. therefore people make fun of me… constantly… "

I think this is the true Eric.

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Yes I think that is a true insight into Eric's mind and thoughts.

Dylan did refer to Eric as Reb though - during the Rampart Range video Dylan called him Reb throughout.

explicit wrote:

dylan did refer to eric as reb though - during the rampart range video dylan called him reb throughout.

But again though, they were shooting guns and being "tough guys". I think Eric pushed the Reb name onto other people. I have seen reference in the 11k calling Eric "reb" from close friends So I do think he used that name quite frequently including calling himself Reb in bowling, but I think in everyday life he was Eric. Dylan calls him Eric in his journal until the very end when he is making a plan for the 20

That's true. Eric always refers to Dylan as 'voDkA' or 'V' in his journal. It's interesting to know that.

explicit wrote:

that's true. eric always refers to dylan as 'vodKA' or 'V' in his journal. it's interesting to know that.

I think it in part shows how wrapped up in this Eric was. Dylan was no longer Dylan. He was Vodka. Eric got so tied up with these personas he was sort of removed from his real life. I don't know....I find the years leading up to the 20 to be fascinating in a way. and this is just another one of the aspects I find interesting

Lizpuff wrote:

explicit wrote:

that's true. eric always refers to dylan as 'vodKA' or 'V' in his journal. it's interesting to know that.

I think it in part shows how wrapped up in this Eric was.  Dylan was no longer Dylan.  He was Vodka.  Eric got so tied up with these personas he was sort of removed from his real life.  I don't know....I find the years leading up to the 20 to be fascinating in a way. and this is just another one of the aspects I find interesting

Excellent points [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] !

Ivan wrote:

Psychopaths are renowned for their hallmark tendency: Lack of emotion.

Eric constantly displayed the opposite; fleeting emotions circulating around his lack of companionship, anger and hatred towards those that opposed him

Wrong. Psychopaths do feel fleeting emotions. In fact, fleeting emotion is what defines them.

Dr. Robert Hare, who pioneered the category, says that psychopaths often feel "shallow emotions" that are tiny compared to what a normal person would feel. Eric shedding tears over murdering 400 people and then trying to do it anyway is a great example of the kind of the "shallow emotion" that psychopaths feel.

Cullen's book reflects this: "Researchers often compare psychopaths to robots or rogue computers...That's the closest approximation of their behavior, but the metaphor lacks nuance. Psychopaths feel something; Eric seemed to show sadness when his dog was sick, and he occasionally felt twinges of regret toward humans." (p. 242-243).

However, the diagnosis of Eric as a psychopath did not originate with Cullen. It came from Dr. Peter Langman, Dr. Mary Ellen O'Toole, Dr. Frank Ochs, and Dr. Dwayne Fusilier. And it was endorsed by Dr. Robert Hare. And Dr. Fuselier presented it at the NVAVC conference in Leesburg, VA that the FBI hosted, and the reviewers there endorsed it.

You may disagree, but it is hard to blame Dave Cullen for choosing a massive medical consensus.

lasttrain wrote:

Ivan wrote:

Psychopaths are renowned for their hallmark tendency: Lack of emotion.

Eric constantly displayed the opposite; fleeting emotions circulating around his lack of companionship, anger and hatred towards those that opposed him

Wrong. Psychopaths do feel fleeting emotions.  In fact, fleeting emotion is what defines them.

Dr. Robert Hare, who pioneered the category, says that psychopaths often feel "shallow emotions" that are tiny compared to what a normal person would feel. Eric shedding tears over murdering 400 people and then trying to do it anyway is a great example of the kind of the "shallow emotion" that psychopaths feel.

Cullen's book reflects this: "Researchers often compare psychopaths to robots or rogue computers...That's the closest approximation of their behavior, but the metaphor lacks nuance. Psychopaths feel something; Eric seemed to show sadness when his dog was sick, and he occasionally felt twinges of regret toward humans." (p. 242-243).

However, the diagnosis of Eric as a psychopath did not originate with Cullen. It came from Dr. Peter Langman, Dr. Mary Ellen O'Toole, Dr. Frank Ochs, and Dr. Dwayne Fusilier.  And it was endorsed by Dr. Robert Hare.  And Dr. Fuselier presented it at the NVAVC conference in Leesburg, VA that the FBI hosted, and the reviewers there endorsed it.

You may disagree, but it is hard to blame Dave Cullen for choosing a massive medical consensus.

I'm not interested in said "consensus" and anybody that follows a single belief like that has a shallow outlook on the massacre or the real motives behind it.

I said Eric felt fleeting emotions; thus he was NOT a psychopath - he didn't feel "shallow emotions" - what he felt was not shallow.

How do you explain the rest of my post? How can a psychopath hate themselves? And can you try and tell me why exactly you picked and chose what you wanted to respond to and not the whole argument?

The emotions of a psychopath are both shallow and fleeting.  

Hare: "While at times [psychopaths] feel cold and emotional, they are prone to dramatic, shallow, and short-lived displays of feeling" (52).

To me this is a perfect characterization of Eric's displays of emotion--short-lived, shallow, melodramatic, ridiculous. Totally out of proportion with the enormity of what he was going to do.

A study by Verona and Patrick (2001) found that psychopaths do, in fact, commit suicide at a high rate.  There are lots of reasons of this, including their hostility, irritability, sensation-seeking behavior, and extreme alienation. These are all risk factors for suicide.

Eric did not see his suicide as the end of his consciousness but as a total power move that would elevate him to a higher plane while haunting the community forever. He did not see it as the end, but only as another form of glorification.  

As far as impulse control is concerned, Eric tried to kill 400 of his classmates at the age of 17. This was the culmination of a crime spree that included acts of vandalism, burglary, and shooting children with BB guns--all the while rehearsing homicides on video. I would not characterize him as a patient, restrained, or steady human being.

lasttrain wrote:

The emotions of a psychopath are both shallow and fleeting.  

Hare: "While at times [psychopaths] feel cold and emotional, they are prone to dramatic, shallow, and short-lived displays of feeling" (52).

To me this is a perfect characterization of Eric's displays of emotion--short-lived, shallow, melodramatic, ridiculous. Totally out of proportion with the enormity of what he was going to do.

A study by Verona and Patrick (2001) found that psychopaths do, in fact, commit suicide at a high rate.  There are lots of reasons of this, including their hostility, irritability, sensation-seeking behavior, and extreme alienation. These are all risk factors for suicide.

Eric did not see his suicide as the end of his consciousness but as a total power move that would elevate him to a higher plane while haunting the community forever. He did not see it as the end, but only as another form of glorification.  

As far as impulse control is concerned, Eric tried to kill 400 of his classmates at the age of 17. This was the culmination of a crime spree that included acts of vandalism, burglary, and shooting children with BB guns--all the while rehearsing homicides on video. I would not characterize him as a patient, restrained, or steady human being.

I think Eric was just joking with the haunting thing.
He didn't seem to believe that suicide is a "power move that would elevate him to a higher plane". He didn't seem to believe/care in some sort of afterlife with his consciouness being "alive".
He "glorified" his brain "As part oh the human race and having the great pleasure of being blessed with a brain I can think."
He did see the end by obliterating the thing that made him who he was, his brain. His suicide was a reflection of self hatred.
Also I don't think that psychopaths cut themsleves. He have messed around with attempting it in the privacy of his bedroom when the pent up hurt and rage was becoming insurmountable. Wall punching at home was not an option.
Eric didn't hide how he felt,especially with his dumb therapist. He said he was homicidal, suicidal, lonely, obsessive, paranoid, angry, confused, lost etc, but nobody cared about him. Seeking help doesn't fit with the psychopath thing.
After all we need to consider that he was still an 18 year old boy in highschool. You can't demand a proper control of emotions at this age, especially in Eric's case.