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 "bye"

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shades
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PostSubject: Re: "bye"   Thu Jan 19, 2017 2:09 am

Cause there were multiple events of seeking to get caught or finding a reason to back out somehow, when there was no follow up on all the red flags like his dad finding the pipe bombs and things didn't get better for him, with all the preparation set and Dylan on his side he just went ahead and did 4/20.

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PostSubject: Re: "bye"   Thu Jan 19, 2017 9:31 am

Justjenna wrote:
Moving nearly always upsets kids. But it doesn't generally turn them into homicidal maniacs.

As for no-one treasuring him, I think that's a bit of an overstatement. He had nothing but good things to say about his parents who clearly loved him. He adored his older brother. And Susan clearly liked him a lot. Then there were the friends he moved away from that he kept in touch with over email. He might not have been popular but he was loved.

There was something like 29 days left in the school year. Columbine would have been behind him. He could've dated Susan or gone to see his friends or enrolled in university. But no. He decided humanity didn't deserve this Earth and so decided to kill as many of us that he could.

I think a lot of times when looking into this case we forget that the people involved were teenagers. I think we forget the mentality of someone at that age and how minor issues that would be considered insignificant to an adult can be devastating to a teenager. I know I've rehashed this is other threads but it's easy to look back with an adult's perspective and life experience and say "your problems aren't even THAT bad..." Sometimes I look back at the things that I thought were important at that age and wonder why I cared so much. 

E&D were also at an age where you're trying to be more independent from your parents and it's easy to overlook their love and resent when they try to show it (like getting angry when they try to help you with something you want to do yourself or being embarrassed if they tell you they love you in public haha).

I believe both e&d were overly sensitive kids. I don't think Eric dealt with loss very well, so the moving and losing friends and having to readjust over and over again probably did mess him up. Some kids adapt to that better than others - I have relatives whose parents were in the military and moved around a lot, and one sibling adjusted well and was unaffected by it while the other went into a deep depression and had to be medicated and eventually homeschooled. 

I don't think Eric or Dylan would've become homicidal maniacs if they each didn't have an accomplice who shared their anger and hatred. They encouraged and fed off each other and don't think either would've acted alone.
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PostSubject: Re: "bye"   Thu Jan 19, 2017 9:53 am

Kiwik wrote:
Justjenna wrote:
Moving nearly always upsets kids. But it doesn't generally turn them into homicidal maniacs.

As for no-one treasuring him, I think that's a bit of an overstatement. He had nothing but good things to say about his parents who clearly loved him. He adored his older brother. And Susan clearly liked him a lot. Then there were the friends he moved away from that he kept in touch with over email. He might not have been popular but he was loved.

There was something like 29 days left in the school year. Columbine would have been behind him. He could've dated Susan or gone to see his friends or enrolled in university. But no. He decided humanity didn't deserve this Earth and so decided to kill as many of us that he could.

I think a lot of times when looking into this case we forget that the people involved were teenagers. I think we forget the mentality of someone at that age and how minor issues that would be considered insignificant to an adult can be devastating to a teenager. I know I've rehashed this is other threads but it's easy to look back with an adult's perspective and life experience and say "your problems aren't even THAT bad..." Sometimes I look back at the things that I thought were important at that age and wonder why I cared so much. 

E&D were also at an age where you're trying to be more independent from your parents and it's easy to overlook their love and resent when they try to show it (like getting angry when they try to help you with something you want to do yourself or being embarrassed if they tell you they love you in public haha).

I believe both e&d were overly sensitive kids. I don't think Eric dealt with loss very well, so the moving and losing friends and having to readjust over and over again probably did mess him up. Some kids adapt to that better than others - I have relatives whose parents were in the military and moved around a lot, and one sibling adjusted well and was unaffected by it while the other went into a deep depression and had to be medicated and eventually homeschooled. 

I don't think Eric or Dylan would've become homicidal maniacs if they each didn't have an accomplice who shared their anger and hatred. They encouraged and fed off each other and don't think either would've acted alone.

I agree very much with what you said. I myself have anxiety and depression. I have had people look at me and my life/problems and go something like "why the hell are you upset about that? it isn't a big deal". But to me it is a huge deal. Moving around and being an army brat may not be a big deal to some but obv for Eric it was a big deal. Likewise Dylan who was raised in one place with a nice home and seemingly loving family who from outward perspective were "perfect" could still find things to hate about his life.
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PostSubject: Re: "bye"   Thu Jan 19, 2017 12:25 pm

I hope you all understand from my point of view why I don't like Evan Todd. He said in interview they were "rejects" and "of course they are going to get bullied when you "horns sticking out of your hat" or something to that effect he said. He was trying to make them leave the school, now what right did him and the other bullies to do that? I really wish people would to get to know each other instead of judging everyone instead of only being friends with people on the football team or basketball team. It seemed back then you had to be an athlete to be popular and that is what makes me upset.
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PostSubject: Re: "bye"   Thu Jan 19, 2017 12:26 pm

bradt93 wrote:
I hope you all understand from my point of view why I don't like Evan Todd. He said in interview they were "rejects" and "of course they are going to get bullied when you have "horns sticking out of your hat" or something to that effect he said. He was trying to make them leave the school, now what right did he and the other bullies have to do that? I really wish people would to get to know each other instead of judging everyone instead of only being friends with people on the football team or basketball team. It seemed back then you had to be an athlete to be popular and that is what makes me upset.
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PostSubject: Re: "bye"   Thu Jan 19, 2017 12:49 pm

bradt93 wrote:
bradt93 wrote:
I hope you all understand from my point of view why I don't like Evan Todd. He said in interview they were "rejects" and "of course they are going to get bullied when you have "horns sticking out of your hat" or something to that effect he said. He was trying to make them leave the school, now what right did he and the other bullies have to do that? I really wish people would to get to know each other instead of judging everyone instead of only being friends with people on the football team or basketball team. It seemed back then you had to be an athlete to be popular and that is what makes me upset.

I don't see your point of view and I disagree with you about this.

Evan Todd was a young teenager when this shooting happened. He was lashing out at two people who had inflicted earth-shattering trauma on him.

The idea that now, almost twenty years later, we should be publicly villainizing him because he said negative things about people who tortured and killed his classmates in front of him--that is hard proposition to view with any credibility.
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PostSubject: Re: "bye"   Thu Jan 19, 2017 1:30 pm

We will have to disagree then, no one has a right to bully anyone and noone has a right to try to force them to leave a school, just because they are as "cool" as they are.
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PostSubject: Re: "bye"   Thu Jan 19, 2017 1:56 pm

I think back to 1999. This was not something that saturated the media in the way it does now. This was a whole new ballgame for all involved, top to bottom. It seems like every time you turn on the news now, there's another mass shooting. Not the case back then. I don't think a parent then would have dreamed that this massacre was being plotted and planned by their children. Sure, maybe they thought their prodigy had issues of some sort, but not this. Hindsight really is 20/20 and so is the benefit of knowing future massacres.
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PostSubject: Re: "bye"   Thu Jan 19, 2017 2:13 pm

bradt93 wrote:
We will have to disagree then, no one has a right to bully anyone and noone has a right to try to force them to leave a school, just because they are as "cool" as they are.

Nobody said that the bullying happened because they have the right to. They don't. But it still happens,

And when it happens one decides what they're gonna do about it.

And that latter sentence about being forced to leave school cause they aren't cool is as stupid as it sounds. So just ignore it. This is high school.

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PostSubject: Re: "bye"   Thu Jan 19, 2017 3:35 pm

Did the parents ever say what Dylan and Eric were like before they first went to Columbine? Did they have mental issues way before they went to that school?
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PostSubject: Re: "bye"   Thu Jan 19, 2017 3:59 pm

bradt93 wrote:
Did the parents ever say what Dylan and Eric were like before they first went to Columbine? Did they have mental issues way before they went to that school?

Sue of course has spoken way more about Dylan. She describes him as sensitive and shy. He was smart and she also described him as malleable. She said at one point that you could convince him to change his mind on topics pretty easily.

Less has been said about Eric, but his friends from before Colorado state he was a bit preppy, but he was nice and not anything like the "colorado" Eric. He seems to have been loyal to those he called friends.
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PostSubject: Re: "bye"   Thu Jan 19, 2017 4:40 pm

bradt93 wrote:
We will have to disagree then, no one has a right to bully anyone and noone has a right to try to force them to leave a school, just because they are as "cool" as they are.

Evan Todd was several years younger than Eric and Dylan. He never bullied Eric and Dylan and never tried to force them to leave the school. We know this because when they saw him they did not recognize him and they asked him if he was a jock. Ergo, they had never seen him before and he had not bullied them.

In my opinion, you should stop slandering Evan Todd, who is a real person, on this message board.

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PostSubject: Re: "bye"   Sat Jan 21, 2017 4:53 am

Lizpuff wrote:

Sue of course has spoken way more about Dylan.  She describes him as sensitive and shy.  He was smart and she also described him as malleable.  She said at one point that you could convince him to change his mind on topics pretty easily.
Sue as if hinting at the fact that Dylan could easily be influenced by Eric. But she says nothing about the influence of Dylan on the Eric.

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PostSubject: Re: "bye"   Sat Jan 21, 2017 12:48 pm

Love wrote:
Lizpuff wrote:

Sue of course has spoken way more about Dylan.  She describes him as sensitive and shy.  He was smart and she also described him as malleable.  She said at one point that you could convince him to change his mind on topics pretty easily.
Sue as if hinting at the fact that Dylan could easily be influenced by Eric. But she says nothing about the influence of Dylan on the Eric.
That could also be true. We just don't know, but I think they were suffering from some type of disorder, but I don't know what though. I think that's the greatest mystery of all, why they did it and what type of disorders they were suffering from? For example, why would Eric tell Brooks Brown " I like you, go home"?
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PostSubject: Re: "bye"   Mon Feb 06, 2017 1:06 am



I don't see Eric as spoiled at all, nor Dylan either, at least not by their parents.
Their parents seemed to take steps to avoid that.

I have come to hate what both did but I see them as lonely,depressed ,mixed up kids who had a powerful rage they didn't know how to deal with or let go of.
You can say that's just making excuses for them and that's one way of looking at it but simply demonizing them misses a huge part of the picture imo.


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PostSubject: Re: "bye"   Tue Feb 07, 2017 1:37 am

PaintItBlack wrote:


I don't see Eric as spoiled at all, nor Dylan either, at least not by their parents.
Their parents seemed to take steps to avoid that.

I have come to hate what both did but I see them as lonely,depressed ,mixed up kids who had a powerful rage they didn't know how to deal with or let go of.
You can say that's just making excuses for them and that's one way of looking at it but simply demonizing them misses a huge part of the picture imo.


privileged vs spoiled for sure.
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PostSubject: Re: "bye"   Sat Feb 11, 2017 1:03 am

bradt93 wrote:
That could also be true. We just don't know, but I think they were suffering from some type of disorder, but I don't know what though. I think that's the greatest mystery of all, why they did it and what type of disorders they were suffering from? For example, why would Eric tell Brooks Brown " I like you, go home"?

Disorder or no, shooting someone you know is much more emotionally fraught than shooting strangers. For people with personality disorders - which is what some forensic psychs have suggested for Eric and Dylan - these people know that killing people is wrong, but for some types of personality disorders (though I think Eric probably didn't even have a full blown personality disorder, I think he demonstrated many characteristics of the dark quadrant of subclinical personality traits - if you google this term or "dark triad of personality" there'll be articles about it.) wanting power over others is part of the psychopathology. Furthermore, Eric and Dylan weren't suffering from a psychosis of any kind. They planned, and premeditated their mass murder-suicide for a significant amount of time. It meets both the mens rea and actus rea components required for a conviction of murder in a court - in that, they planned the act, and they carried it out.

When you ask why Eric let Brooks go, or why Dylan let John Savage go, you have to consider the psychology of guns. They are a weapon of distance. You have to get right in someone's face to stab them and kill them. You have to look your victim in the eye while you're murdering them and Eric and Dylan in reality, probably didn't have the stomach for that. Which is probably why they didn't use the knives they armed themselves with. Whereas, with guns you can kill people in a few seconds - and a lot of them. You can shoot someone point blank with a gun and not even have to look them in the face. It's distanced killing.
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PostSubject: Re: "bye"   Sat Feb 11, 2017 1:15 am

It''s distance killing until you get up close and personal and shoot someone at "point blank" range.

Eric/Dylan were pretty close to some of the victims they shot in the library.
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PostSubject: Re: "bye"   Sat Feb 11, 2017 1:50 am

sororityalpha wrote:
It''s distance killing until you get up close and personal and shoot someone at "point blank" range.

Eric/Dylan were pretty close to some of the victims they shot in the library.
Well, I heard a rumor they sort of felt remorse at the end, like a what WTH moment? LOL.
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