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 Positions and Suicide

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PostSubject: Positions and Suicide   Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:01 am

I have a few questions.

In the death photos of Eric and Dylan, are those the position their bodies were in when they were FOUND, or were they already moved around when the photo was taken.

Also, why did Eric kill himself the way he did with a shotgun to the mouth but not Dylan? Wouldn't Dylan, being the one who wanted to die the most, have taken the faster way with the shotgun?

And which of the 2 died first?
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PostSubject: Re: Positions and Suicide   Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:06 am

I think that Dylan's body was kicked off of Eric's leg and I am almost certain that Eric died first.

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PostSubject: Re: Positions and Suicide   Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:10 am

"Kicked" off? What would it have looked like previously?

And how did Eric maneuver the gun so that he could kill himself with it. Is his right trigger finger extended in the photo?
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PostSubject: Re: Positions and Suicide   Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:15 am

Well, I believe that Dylan was kneeling in front of Eric and when he shot himself, he fell down onto Eric's leg, as the blood stain on Eric's boot and Dylan's arm would support that. BUT, I don't know if Dylan rolled onto his back himself when he was dying OR the police came in and kicked him off of Eric, just to check and see if he was dead.

Eric put the shotgun in his mouth and yes, I would imagine he used his right hand to kill himself, as his right hand is close to his mouth in the 'death' photos. I can't tell though if his finger is extended.

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PostSubject: Re: Positions and Suicide   Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:19 am

So Eric's pose is un-ruined in the death photos. That's how he actually looked when he died?

I wonder how he rotated the shotgun. I'm guessing he also used his left hand to support the bottom or side of the gun.
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PostSubject: Re: Positions and Suicide   Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:25 am

Yes, I think that is how Eric died. I don't think he was moved. I believe that he had his knees bent up towards his chest when he shot himself and then the gun landed under his leg and then when he died, he lost body control and his knees dropped, on top of the gun. Then I think, after Eric was dead, and after his knees already dropped, that Dylan shot himself in the temple and fell face down onto Eric's legs. I've studied those photos A LOT, more than any person should, probably and that is what I 100% believe happened.

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PostSubject: Re: Positions and Suicide   Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:26 am

Thank you for the detailed response.

Why do you think Dylan chose the Tec-9 over the shotgun? That is a bit of an odd choice.
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PostSubject: Re: Positions and Suicide   Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:35 am

Hm, I don't know why he chose the Tec-9 over the shotgun. Maybe because that seems to have been the gun he favored during the massacre? Maybe he saw how the shotgun blew away most of Eric's face and he decided he didn't want to that? I really don't know. I wish I did though. I seem to think he didn't want to blow his head off for his parents sake maybe? It would make sense, considering that Dylan took off all of his belongings and put them in a little pile. Don't you suppose he did that so his parents could have his things back?

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PostSubject: Re: Positions and Suicide   Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:39 am

I guess Eric didn't really care what his parents would see then? Would you agree that there was no way of getting Eric back to life after that shotgun blast?

He put all of his belongings in a pile? This I did not know. I didn't know he saw Eric kill himself. Why would he want to see that?
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PostSubject: Re: Positions and Suicide   Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:51 am

I've seen a variety of opinions on this topic, ranging from "Eric shot Dylan before he shot himself" to the "the police killed them both" to "this is exactly what they looked like when they died". I don't have a source handy, but have read that the police moved the bodies (to search for explosives?) before those pictures were taken. Thee has been much speculation that Dylan lived for a very short period of time after shooting himself, and that the coughing Patrick Ireland heard was Dylan's death rattle.

Jenn, I never thought about why Dylan put his things in a pile, but that's a neat, albeit really freaking sad, idea.

As to why the Tec-9, clearly easier to hold to your temple, but he could have used the shogun and gone the way Eric did. Hmm. I think it takes a lot of nerve to bite the barrel in a literal sense - maybe he couldn't deal with it. Maybe he did watch Eric first and the pure destruction of Eric's head freaked him out? It would certainly alter my line of thought. I've convinced myself there was some sort of verbal signal, whether it was a "1-2-3" or simply a goodbye or something. Hard to do that if they both have guns in their mouths. Of course, that's pure speculation, but I feel like they had every intention of going together at the same time and they weren't facing each other so I'm not sure how else they would have signaled it.

-eulogy-, I would guess that Eric died instantly and there was no way he could have been saved. I doubt he was thinking about his parents at the time. I picture him being incredibly upset that his brilliant plan, i.e. the bombs, didn't work. We don't know if Dylan saw Eric kill himself, that's purely speculation.
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PostSubject: Re: Positions and Suicide   Tue Jul 09, 2013 1:30 am

I heard the bodies were searched for bombs before they were photographed.

As for suicide method choices, Eric was fond of his shotgun, obviously due to his fondness for Doom since he named the gun after a character from it. It was probably also an easier weapon to commit suicide with than his rifle.

Dylan had a very romantic idea of death, so maybe that influenced his choice of suicide method? Perhaps he found Eric's method distasteful?

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PostSubject: Re: Positions and Suicide   Tue Jul 09, 2013 1:43 am

@Jenn wrote:
I seem to think he didn't want to blow his head off for his parents sake maybe? It would make sense, considering that Dylan took off all of his belongings and put them in a little pile. Don't you suppose he did that so his parents could have his things back?

Hm. This is really interesting. I've not heard this before. is this mentioned somewhere in the 11K?
All I can see is his beloved ball cap on the floor between him and Eric's leg. It looks rather bloody and I wondered if he took it off first or not.

Still don't get the Tech 9 sort of semi held in his right hand and under his right thigh. That makes NO sense whatsoever.
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PostSubject: Re: Positions and Suicide   Tue Jul 09, 2013 1:44 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Maybe he did watch Eric first and the pure destruction of Eric's head freaked him out? It would certainly alter my line of thought.

They both saw a lot of death on that day, so I'm not sure if a little bit more would have upset Dylan that much. I get the feeling he just preferred the temple-shot method.

If I was going to commit suicide, my main concern would be to get dead as quickly and painlessly as possible. The thought of being half-alive like some have suggested Dylan may have been scares the crap out of me.

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PostSubject: Re: Positions and Suicide   Tue Jul 09, 2013 2:48 am

InFiNiNcEX5 wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
I seem to think he didn't want to blow his head off for his parents sake maybe? It would make sense, considering that Dylan took off all of his belongings and put them in a little pile. Don't you suppose he did that so his parents could have his things back?

Hm. This is really interesting. I've not heard this before. is this mentioned somewhere in the 11K?
All I can see is his beloved ball cap on the floor between him and Eric's leg. It looks rather bloody and I wondered if he took it off first or not.

Still don't get the Tech 9 sort of semi held in his right hand and under his right thigh.  That makes NO sense whatsoever.

I think he dropped the Tec 9 between his legs after he shot himself and when the police rolled him off of Eric, that is just the position it ended up in. I don't think he was actually holding it in his right hand, as he was left handed and the shot went through his left temple. I don't remember where exactly I read that info on the pile of his belongings, but I remember reading that the police threw all of that stuff, a necklace and an earring into the body bag with him and that they had found it in a pile close to his body.

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PostSubject: Re: Positions and Suicide   Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:58 pm

@Jenn wrote:
InFiNiNcEX5 wrote:
@Jenn wrote:
I seem to think he didn't want to blow his head off for his parents sake maybe? It would make sense, considering that Dylan took off all of his belongings and put them in a little pile. Don't you suppose he did that so his parents could have his things back?

Hm. This is really interesting. I've not heard this before. is this mentioned somewhere in the 11K?
All I can see is his beloved ball cap on the floor between him and Eric's leg. It looks rather bloody and I wondered if he took it off first or not.

Still don't get the Tech 9 sort of semi held in his right hand and under his right thigh.  That makes NO sense whatsoever.

I think he dropped the Tec 9 between his legs after he shot himself and when the police rolled him off of Eric, that is just the position it ended up in. I don't think he was actually holding it in his right hand, as he was left handed and the shot went through his left temple. I don't remember where exactly I read that info on the pile of his belongings, but I remember reading that the police threw all of that stuff, a necklace and an earring into the body bag with him and that they had found it in a pile close to his body.

The police really tampered with the crime scene.  I wonder if we'll ever get to see the original position photos they took before frisking them for bombs (ha ha, right).  I like your idea of Dylan's suicide position and the manner in which he fell. But I still think it's odd the weapon ended up where it did and that the police just rolled him on top of the weapon.  His right hand also looks as though it is loosely holding the weapon - in a very tampered, unnatural looking grip.

I know that Dylan wore that necklace since he was a kid (can never figure out what exactly it is!) and also his triple barred cross earring which he appeared to have worn the last two years of high school.  If he went so far as to remove them off his being and into a pile, I'm going to surmise that those pieces of jewelry hold very strong personal/family meaning for him. He seems to hold onto things with a kind of nostolgia like transplanting the "B" on his hat to another.  The jewelry may have been made by a family member.  I tend to think that perhaps the earring was made by his mother who may be into jewelry making (she seems like the type, anyway).   So, perhaps he was honoring or nodding to his parents or family by doing this.   It would be great to read the article or police account that you read!
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PostSubject: Re: Positions and Suicide   Tue Jul 09, 2013 6:15 pm

Actually, I read that Dylan made the earring himself in shop class in either 10th or 11th grade. A lot of this information I read on the old forum, which is closed down now, but I remember when reading something about the autopsies is when I found out about the pile of his jewelry and how it was just thrown into his body bag with him.

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PostSubject: Re: Positions and Suicide   Tue Jul 09, 2013 7:38 pm

@Jenn wrote:
Actually, I read that Dylan made the earring himself in shop class in either 10th or 11th grade.

I heard that too but haven't really seen it confirmed. Hmm. Did Dylan even take shop class?
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PostSubject: Re: Positions and Suicide   Mon Jul 29, 2013 12:33 am

Just adding this blurb from the 11K on Dylan's personal effects.  It's a bit confusing how it's worded - not sure I have a clear idea of what they mean by "present in close proximity to the body, in the body bag, were the following personal effects:"  So, what they mean is FOUND in close proximity to the body and then put into the body bag ??  Confused.

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PostSubject: Re: Positions and Suicide   Mon Jul 29, 2013 9:49 am

By the time those photos were taken, the boys had already been searched for bombs and other stuff. I think they may have taken one or two shots of how their bodies were positioned originally, if anything, but that the focus was more on making sure nothing could explode around them anymore? It seems really likely to me that the focus wasn't so much on how the bodies were found at the time, although it would've been important to note this in any investigation afterward. Is there any description in that heap of evidence concerning the original positions the boys were found in? I don't recall reading anything of the sort right now outside of the account of Dylan's head having landed on Eric's leg post-suicide. It doesn't seem likely to me that Dylan was still capable of that amount of physical movement necessary to get his head away from Eric again, even if he was alive for a time after he'd shot himself. So, Dylan's body was moved. I'm not sure on Eric's, but it'd stand to reason that they'd have to alter his position slightly to search him properly. (I recall reading a theory -- I think it was on the old forum -- that Eric was squatting or sitting down with his shotgun between his legs at the time he shot himself. The blast of it would've rocked him backward into a position similar to the one he was photographed in. I don't really remember what the accompanying argument for that was, though. Something to do with stability of the shot and the location the gun had in that photograph? Does anyone here remember this as well?)

In regards to the methods they used.. I think that it would take a lot of self-hatred (and indifference concerning things like the reactions of your loved ones) to put a shotgun in your mouth and pull the trigger knowing fully well what the result would be. I don't think there was any hesitation on Eric's part with this, though. There was no way in hell that they'd take him from that school alive, and he certainly didn't plan on botching his own death or leave anything to chance. It was one of his most decisive/forceful moments, in my opinion. I've always thought that Dylan pulled the trigger maybe a fraction of a second later than Eric, which certainly wouldn't have given him enough time to see what the shotgun blast did to his friend. I think they weren't facing each other at the time of their deaths. Dylan, I can see as being the more 'romantic' about death and wanting to leave his body mostly intact and such. It doesn't make the manner of his death any less violent, though. There was no hesitation on his part, either, but I think he just preferred the 'neater' of the two methods used. Dylan had been visibly toying with the idea of suicide for a long time, so I think it was a very deliberate move on his part to 'go' the way he did. He contemplated death by his own hand more than Eric seems to have done.
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PostSubject: Re: Positions and Suicide   Mon Jul 29, 2013 4:30 pm

thedragonrampant wrote:
By the time those photos were taken, the boys had already been searched for bombs and other stuff. I think they may have taken one or two shots of how their bodies were positioned originally, if anything, but that the focus was more on making sure nothing could explode around them anymore? It seems really likely to me that the focus wasn't so much on how the bodies were found at the time, although it would've been important to note this in any investigation afterward. Is there any description in that heap of evidence concerning the original positions the boys were found in? I don't recall reading anything of the sort right now outside of the account of Dylan's head having landed on Eric's leg post-suicide. It doesn't seem likely to me that Dylan was still capable of that amount of physical movement necessary to get his head away from Eric again, even if he was alive for a time after he'd shot himself. So, Dylan's body was moved. I'm not sure on Eric's, but it'd stand to reason that they'd have to alter his position slightly to search him properly. (I recall reading a theory -- I think it was on the old forum -- that Eric was squatting or sitting down with his shotgun between his legs at the time he shot himself. The blast of it would've rocked him backward into a position similar to the one he was photographed in. I don't really remember what the accompanying argument for that was, though. Something to do with stability of the shot and the location the gun had in that photograph? Does anyone here remember this as well?)

It seems obvious to me that the bodies were moved based on the odd positioning of the guns under their bodies - especially, Dylan's TEC 9 which is hidden underneath his right thigh.  I agree that Dylan probably would not have been capable of the involuntary brain power and/or physical inertion required to pulls his head up and off of Eric's leg and fall backward, face up.  However, to follow crime scene protocol, they must have taken a few quick snapshots from each angle when arriving upon the scene prior to the cursory check for bombs and then repositioning of the bodies.  Since, the photos of E & D leaked unofficially, and those photos have been out in the public and on the net for quite some time, why in the world hasn't Jeffco gone ahead and released the initial, untampered crime scene photos of E & D?  It makes Jeffco appear as though they are withholding evidence/hiding things when they don't release the factual "crime scene" photos given the fact that the damage had been done with the leaked, tampered ones. By not giving us all the evidence, they play a part in perpetuating pseudo conspiracy conclusions made by the public based only on the inaccurate photos.  I seem to recall that when Brooks Brown was on Tumblr last Spring, he alluded to his evolution of conclusions regarding his friend Dylan and that he believes and/or has a gut feeling that Eric shot Dylan.   If anyone else was present during his (disastrous) Tumblr Q/A, please feel free to chime in and support or dispute this because it's a bit of blur. I recorded some of what he said but not everything.  At any rate, Jeffco really should try to provide the public with the most truthful evidence so that the public can draw the most accurate conclusions and then Jeffco wouldn't have to worry about being accused of covering stuff up! (unless, of course, they are ?)  

thedragonrampant wrote:
In regards to the methods they used.. I think that it would take a lot of self-hatred (and indifference concerning things like the reactions of your loved ones) to put a shotgun in your mouth and pull the trigger knowing fully well what the result would be. I don't think there was any hesitation on Eric's part with this, though. There was no way in hell that they'd take him from that school alive, and he certainly didn't plan on botching his own death or leave anything to chance. It was one of his most decisive/forceful moments, in my opinion. I've always thought that Dylan pulled the trigger maybe a fraction of a second later than Eric, which certainly wouldn't have given him enough time to see what the shotgun blast did to his friend. I think they weren't facing each other at the time of their deaths. Dylan, I can see as being the more 'romantic' about death and wanting to leave his body mostly intact and such. It doesn't make the manner of his death any less violent, though. There was no hesitation on his part, either, but I think he just preferred the 'neater' of the two methods used. Dylan had been visibly toying with the idea of suicide for a long time, so I think it was a very deliberate move on his part to 'go' the way he did. He contemplated death by his own hand more than Eric seems to have done.

Mainly, where Eric is concerned, I agree with your one point: that there was NO way in hell that he'd accept defeat and allow himself to be captured and taken from the school via a failed suicide attempt or taken by force and unharmed.  Eric knew the best way to make sure his suicide was no fail successful was to put his weapon in his mouth and blow his brains out.  I understand it's the least painful and the quickest, most efficient way to do it as your brain doesn't even have time to respond to pain.  As much as Dylan fantasized about suicide as a pasttime, I'm not sure he had what it took to savagely blow his brains out.  I mean, he fantasized about equally worse, messy scenarios - strapping a bomb to himself, for one. In the end, he may not have had the guts for such a brutal way to die.  So, Dylan opted for, what I understand from the thread above, putting his watch and jewelry in a small pile nearby and quickly/cleanly pumping a bullet into the side of his head.  I guess he aspirated blood but, doubtfully, had the cognitive capacity to be aware of pain amidst involuntary convulsions.
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PostSubject: Re: Positions and Suicide   Fri Aug 09, 2013 11:09 pm

Did Dylan fire 2 shots to kill himself or only one? I wonder what his immediate reaction was after it.

I guess Eric fired only 1 and had no death rattle.
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PostSubject: Re: Positions and Suicide   Sun Nov 17, 2013 5:48 pm

-eulogy- wrote:
Did Dylan fire 2 shots to kill himself or only one? I wonder what his immediate reaction was after it.

I guess Eric fired only 1 and had no death rattle.
Dylan shot himself once i believe. There was one entrance wound and one exit wound.
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PostSubject: Re: Positions and Suicide   Sun Nov 17, 2013 7:42 pm

Imagine hearing somebody's death rattle, spooky stuff. I wonder if Dylan was in any sort of pain because I doubt he died instantly like Eric did.
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PostSubject: Re: Positions and Suicide   Sun Nov 17, 2013 8:52 pm

So, Dylan had the forethought to take off his jewelry and also to put a Molotov cocktail on the table nearby? That's some preparation. Was he nervous or simply more ritualistic in his actions? Wondering if Eric needed any preparation.

In one diary entry dated 5/20/98, Eric writes of some people he wants dead ''deal with it or commit suicide, just do it quick'' or something to that effect. He may have felt that ''doing it quick'' was the best way, without too much thinking. He was steadfast in pretty much everything he did.

Also, in the Kass' book, the author mentions Eric used to play a game called ''Going Postal'' where the character has to put the barrel of his gun in his mouth in order to exit the game. So, Eric may have gotten the idea of shooting himself that way from playing that game...as he may have had for the rest.

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PostSubject: Re: Positions and Suicide   Sun Nov 17, 2013 10:03 pm

Were the suicides caught on tape?




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PostSubject: Re: Positions and Suicide   Mon Nov 18, 2013 2:38 am

Nope, no footage in the library, just in the cafeteria.
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PostSubject: Re: Positions and Suicide   Mon Nov 18, 2013 8:34 am

Was the bullet that killed Dylan ever found? With that bullet we may be able to work out the trajectory of the bullet's path and the position of Dylan's gun and head during the shot. I guess the bullet couldn't have traveled very far ,it might have been buried inside a book. I don't know. I am raking through the 11K and i am getting nowhere. About the positions of E & D's bodies when they were found ,i don't think the police / SWAT would have cared about photographing the bodies immediately upon finding them. For all they knew E & D may have rigged up explosives inside the library and on their bodies. The main concern was to make sure that there were not walking into a booby trapped room. In the scheme of things i don't think the authorities cared at all about photographing E & D's bodies in the position they were found. After being checked for explosives and possible signs of life the police could have re-positioned the bodies back to the position they were found in and then photographed them. I don't think the police thought it mattered some how. I believe routine protocol would have demanded that pictures were to be taken of the bodies after they were re-positioned in the position they were originally found. We want to know the exact position that E & D were in when they killed themselves. It matters to us and it does not matter to the authorities because the bodies were only moved slightly ,they were not moved across the room. Striking attention to detail matters not to them. Anyway ,back to to 11K and finding Dylan's death bullet.
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PostSubject: Re: Positions and Suicide   Mon Nov 18, 2013 8:44 am

They should have, to be honest I'm bemused that this case wasn't taken on by federal agents instead.
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PostSubject: Re: Positions and Suicide   Mon Nov 18, 2013 10:19 am

The bodies were not moved significantly because they are no blood stained drag makes. If the bodies were moved back into their original positions and photographed and locked away from the public eye ,why couldn't they release sketches of the scene? I know that it isn't the same as a photograph ,but at least we could still view the scene and be satisfied ( i would be )
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PostSubject: Re: Positions and Suicide   Mon Nov 18, 2013 12:40 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Was the bullet that killed Dylan ever found? With that bullet we may be able to work out the trajectory of the bullet's path and the position of Dylan's gun and head during the shot. I guess the bullet couldn't have traveled very far ,it might have been buried inside a book. I don't know. I am raking through the 11K and i am getting nowhere. About the positions of E & D's bodies when they were found ,i don't think the police / SWAT would have cared about photographing the bodies immediately upon finding them. For all they knew E & D may have rigged up explosives inside the library and on their bodies. The main concern was to make sure that there were not walking into a booby trapped room. In the scheme of things i don't think the authorities cared at all about photographing E & D's bodies in the position they were found. After being checked for explosives and possible signs of life the police could have re-positioned the bodies back to the position they were found in and then photographed them. I don't think the police thought it mattered some how. I believe routine protocol would have demanded that pictures were to be taken of the bodies after they were re-positioned in the position they were originally found. We want to know the exact position that E & D were in when they killed themselves. It matters to us and it does not matter to the authorities because the bodies were only moved slightly ,they were not moved across the room. Striking attention to detail matters not to them. Anyway ,back to to 11K and finding Dylan's death bullet.
Here's something:



Team Reports 012238-012547

JC-001-012316:

Firearm discharge #11 was the 9mm projectile that killed
KLEBOLD. No known holes or deformations solely existed
for this event other than in the body. (The evidence
recovered from discharges 13 and 14 may be the same as
this event.)

JC-001-012317:

Firearm discharge #13 was the 9mm round (item #1166) that
perforated the drywall below the frame between Windows 5
and 6 (photographs 44-16 and 44-24) and recovered under
Window 5. The measured declination for this trajectory was
3 degrees and 37 degrees out from the west wall. Its
apparent trajectory (photograph 44-22) traced back to the
southeast being into or just above a chair on the west side of
Table 20. If it was above this chair back, this continued
trajectory was to the north of the bodies of KLEBOLD and
HARRIS.

Firearm discharge #14 was the 9mm round (item #1124) that
perforated the frame at the bottom of Window 6
(photographs 44-16 to 44-24). In addition to gray and
copper-colored metal fragments, the curved piece of window
frame (all as item #1124A) were recovered from inside the
windowsill. The measured trajectory for this projectile was
31 degrees out from the windowsill in an essentially
horizontal path. When traced back to the southeast, this
trajectory intersected the west side of bookshelf Row 6 at a
point 45 3/4" above the floor and 52" north of the south end
of the bookshelf. This trajectory also passed over the area
where KLEBOLD's body was located at a height of
approximately 36" (photograph 44-23). Of all the projectile
holes/impacts in this area, discharge #14 was the most
consistent (though not exclusively) with being the same as
discharge #11 through KLEBOLD. (Note: DNA analysis on
pellets and fragments recovered in this area did not have
any evidentiary value.)
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