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cakeman

cakeman


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PostSubject: Re: [[   [[ Icon_minitimeFri Oct 23, 2020 4:57 am

I mean, yeah, it's maybe not the only trigger, but it's the one we can be sure of. End of January was the van arrest, February to April is when you get them mentioning the attack for the first time, and in May Dylan says it will be killing cops as revenge for what happened in January.  They seem influenced in method of attack by the likes of video games like Duke Nukem 3D, which has "pig cops" as an enemy, and they would have been initially grounded so it's easy to imagine them discuss playing it irl since they couldn't on the computer. Dylan wrote his paper on the Manson murders which famously have pig written in blood, etc.

Also I surmise they expected cops to rush into the building - didn't everyone?  - and had one of the cafeteria bombs meant for them, hence the library massacre happens. Perhaps why they shot at them out in the parking lot, hoping to get them to rush in rather than expecting to pick them off like that.  On top of the initial shootout with Gardner and Smoker, and on top of the car bombs later for those who were out in the parking lot.

Hard to make the "wandering the halls" period make sense other than "searching for cops" and/or hoping that making the bomb go off will end their excuse for staying outside. Eric signals "cops sighted" by waving his hand on the CCTV, when Dylan has his gun drawn. So, cops seem on their mind.

For "The ONE Person Who You Hate The Most:" Eric writes "Are cops one person?"
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theartofwar

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PostSubject: Re: [[   [[ Icon_minitimeFri Oct 23, 2020 8:57 am

emanresu wrote:
I read on a biography website dedicated to eric that "sometime after his arrest, he began planning an attack with dylan klebold on his school" or something like that and i was wondering if anyone believes that that was the motivating factor/the finals straw?

i guess it helped fuel their rage, although dylan had written at least once of doing an attack in late 1997 with the girl that he liked. i believe that it was a factor that played into it, but not the main contributing factor.

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cakeman

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PostSubject: Re: [[   [[ Icon_minitimeFri Oct 23, 2020 10:45 pm

While Dylan wished to die before the van incident, that seems misleading:

Dylan wrote "I’ll go on my killing spree against anyone I want," in November of 97; emphasis on "I".  However "I’ll get with [some girl] and it will be NBK for us" is February of 98. April of 98 Eric says when I go NBK, and by end of April Eric has written out an attack plan with him and Dylan, and in May Dylan is talking about one in Eric's yearbook, explicitly mentioning the van incident. 

Dylan didn't even write that Eric was his best friend in the diversion paperwork, so not like they did everything together. Yet they did diversion together. Seems relevant.

He says somebody unspecified would help him get a gun in November of 97. No reason to assume the same person but even if it was, 2 person attack called NBK isn't mentioned. Not true it was "with the girl that he liked"; not yet.

One can certainly imagine it as the true motive for one and not the other, say: "Dylan who just wants to die and take everyone with him or whatever sells Eric on the idea by appealing to revenge against cops." It seems to me Eric may have stayed up on the stairs with the longer range gun to protect Dylan's back from cops while Dylan entered the cafeteria. Indeed, Eric speaks of 'natural selection' meaning a shoot-out, 'playing Doom IRL'.  It seems like Eric shot a lot more at police from inside as well, if not was the only one and Dylan protected his back.

Eric taking out Gardner and such may even be what Dylan meant in the yearbook by killing cops. It could be taken chronologically, as strictly sequentially: "killing enemies, blowing up stuff, killing cops!! My wrath for January's incident will be godlike. Not to mention our revenge in the commons."

1) Killing enemies

Shooting people fleeing out of the library emergency exit? Note they seem to think their victims would get up and run out of it, and started right by it.  Killing Rachel and Daniel outside if nothing else.

2) Blowing up stuff

Then a cafeteria bomb goes off?

3) Killing cops

Then Dylan descends the stairs and Eric protects his back from Gardner/Smoker/et al?

4) Not to mention our revenge in the commons

Then Eric enters the west entrance, cafeteria surrounded, they taunt the victims of the cafeteria explosion and shoot (and bomb and stab) them, as they ended up doing in the library?

And note Duke Nukem taunts people, unlike say Doomguy.

Also note on the Basement Tapes Dylan says something like they are getting away with it because they actually planned it this time, obviously contrasted with the van incident. He also says "Fuck you" to the cop who arrested him on those.


Last edited by cakeman on Tue Oct 27, 2020 10:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
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cakeman

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PostSubject: Re: [[   [[ Icon_minitimeSat Oct 24, 2020 8:42 pm

This might be clearer:

January 30, 1998 - van arrest
*Eric and Dylan have to go through diversion together, to avoid a felony together, grounded at the same time. Meaning through their next-to-last summer vacation; the last before they have to think about what to do with their lives, etc.

*Dylan recorded in library same day, wearing KMFDM Xtort shirt. Find both relevant. Of course, he kills and dies in the library. Also seems to me at least the albums Xtort and "Symbols" have some influence on the massacre, if not KMFDM in general.

February 2, 1998
*Dylan mentions NBK for the first time, from Natural Born Killers, which would become their code for what we call the massacre.

*Says it will be either he commits suicide, or NBK with some girl. Presumably he at least means a murder spree with her like in the film, if not a murder-suicide like what NBK came to mean.

(March 24, 1998
*Westside School shooting in Arkansas)

April 10, 1998
*Eric starts his journal, mentions natural selection for the first time in writing. He'd wear "Natural Selection" on the day of the massacre of course.

April 12, 1998
*Eric's second entry, mentions natural selection for the 2nd time, and it's that the guy they stole from on January 30 should be shot. He says the same should happen to rich  people at his school.

April 21, 1998
*Eric's third entry, mentions NBK for the first time. He says "when I go NBK". No mention of Dylan yet.

*same day was their "orientation group date" for diversion

April 26, 1998
*NBK.doc on Eric's computer, the first expression of an attack plan on the school by Eric and Dylan, of NBK proper.

May 1998 (not actually sure of a date - end of 98 school year, and 99 was ending in May. If anybody knows do tell)
*Dylan writes a lot in Eric's yearbook.

*Including:
**"This is next year's section...I can't wait to dub the new freshmen, & the holy April morning of NBK"  

**"We the gods will have so much fun with NBK. killing enemies, blowing up stuff, killing cops!! My wrath for January's incident will be godlike. Not to mention our revenge in the commons. GAWWD so many people need to die."  Dylan wore "Wrath" during the massacre of course (it's the last song on Xtort).

**"NBK will be the ultimate revenge, to our shitlists, the pigs, everyone!"

(May 21, 1998
*Thurston High shooting in Oregon

August, 1998 - when planning is serious by Dylan's reckoning. Presumably start of senior year.
*Basement Tapes on April 11, 1999

**Dylan: We’ve been planning this for over eight months.

**Eric: At least.)

October 23, 1998
*Eric now writes "when we go NBK"

*Also says who we is later (as if we don't know): "Heh, imagine THAT you fuckers, picture half of Denver on fire just from me and Vodka"

(November 22, 1998
*Guns acquired

December 8, 1998
*Hitmen for Hire

*same day Eric had "300 word essay" due for diversion, substance abuse 'violence is preventable'  course)

[...]

March 15, 1999
*Basement Tapes

*Dylan says "I’m going to kill you all. You’ve been giving us shit for years. Fuck you, Walsh." Deputy Tim Walsh, who arrested them on January 30, 1998.

March 18, 1999
*Basement Tapes

*They talk about when breaking into a van to steal electrical equipment

*Eric asks Dylan “why it didn’t go as planned”

*Dylan responds “We didn’t fucking plan it, that’s why.”
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cakeman

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PostSubject: Re: [[   [[ Icon_minitimeSun Oct 25, 2020 9:12 am

No problem. I definitely tried to focus it somewhat on the van narrative. Don't want to pretend it's an all encompassing timeline, or that one couldn't construct one focusing on other aspects. However I don't think they'd have as much to work with. Cheers.
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PostSubject: Re: [[   [[ Icon_minitimeMon Oct 26, 2020 3:39 pm

Note also on NBK.doc is the quote that it's gonna be like "The LA Riots, the Oklahoma bombing, WW2, Vietnam, Duke and Doom all mixed together", I already showed how Duke Nukem 3D involves police (LA police, in fact), and the LA riots do too of course. While there are other aspects he could be talking about, such as the fires of the LA Riots or the pipe bombs of Duke Nukem 3D, I doubt that's all he means.

PS Unless it's a reference to Hitler's birthday or killing of the unfit, or just a big war or turning point. I can't make WW2 fit as easily as the others. There's a million parallels with Duke and Doom. Vietnam has the napalm. OKC has the bomb;  I explained LA. Don't really have one for WW2.
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cakeman

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PostSubject: Re: [[   [[ Icon_minitimeTue Oct 27, 2020 11:12 pm

If I were to play devil's advocate, and argue for the other side off the top of my head, I would use that November 97 quote to say Dylan was at least thinking of some kind of killing spree.

Even before then, I think by August 97, Eric wrote he and Dylan were making pipe bombs and "Now our only problem is to find the place that will be "ground zero."'  As I recall Judy Brown places this as the start of plotting the attack.

Then there's the shooting at Heath High School in Kentucky, on December 1, 1997. On the Basement Tapes, depending on which transcript you use, they mention 2 of the 3 of the shootings in Kentucky/Arkansas/Oregon, and they also seem possibly to confuse them with each other.

That would be all that came to mind, though. Well that, and media stuff:  the film Natural Born Killers, video games like Doom II and Duke Nukem 3D,  KMFDM's Xtort album, etc were around before 97.

So, tl;dr the original quote in the original post seems accurate to me.
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