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emanresu wrote:

How do you think the first ever moment unfolded where they both exchanged words about going on a possible killing spree in the school. I feel like it was probably after a very notable school shooting that occured earlier or after a moment in school which made one of them snap (like something to do with the jocks). I also feel like their (or at least eric's) desire to genuinely carry out a massacre became up and running after the oklahoma city bombing.

I sometimes wonder what the instigating moment was to make them say they were actually going to plan on doing it. Because I’m sure they joked about it and according to their friends they all did . I bet when the two of them were hanging out and stuff on their own they take about it. Even Dylan wrote about it too!

Screamingophelia wrote:

emanresu wrote:

How do you think the first ever moment unfolded where they both exchanged words about going on a possible killing spree in the school. I feel like it was probably after a very notable school shooting that occured earlier or after a moment in school which made one of them snap (like something to do with the jocks). I also feel like their (or at least eric's) desire to genuinely carry out a massacre became up and running after the oklahoma city bombing.

I sometimes wonder what the instigating moment was to make them say they were actually going to plan on doing it. Because I’m sure they joked about it and according to their friends they all did . I bet when the two of them were hanging out and stuff on their own they take about it. Even Dylan wrote about it too!

Absolutely they joked about shooting up their school before seriously considering it. Like you, I wonder what the exact moment was that changed the idea from a joke to reality.

Dylan and Eric probably joked about it multiple times, but maybe one day Dylan mentioned it to Eric that they should really consider doing it, and then Eric ran away with it.

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I could see it unfolding like that. The theory that Dylan pitched the general idea and Eric became captivated with planning the attack seems most likely to me.

I do wonder if there was a definitive moment where they doubled down on the plan together, or if it turned in to a "guess we're actually doing this" moment, independent of each other.

NeedaHaircut wrote:

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I could see it unfolding like that. The theory that Dylan pitched the general idea and Eric became captivated with planning the attack seems most likely to me.

I do wonder if there was a definitive moment where they doubled down on the plan together, or if it turned in to a "guess we're actually doing this" moment, independent of each other.

With how they wrote their journals...honestly...it felt as if it was just a more like "Go with the flow" type thing. Just both independent of each other.

I don't think NBK became "real" for both of them until December 1998. They both expressed doubts too.

I don’t know if you know this but I'm currently writing a columbine screenplay. This was by far one of the most challenging scenes to write because we in all honesty will probably never know how it started or who
Was the first to suggest it. I basically ended up having the topic come up while hanging out and venting about their frustrations after the “tampon
incident”.

I believe there was a "wouldn't it be cool?" moment followed by more or less serious progressive steps towards realization they might as well, as making pipe bombs and getting guns was totally feasible. More and more focusing on what's fucked up and shitty about the school and its people, they killed the reservation that kept them from actually doing it.

I also believe all of the planning worked in the "child play" mode for a long time, along with cultivating their thug alter egos. There must have been a lot of "are we really doing it man? I can't believe we're doing it!" and some mutual uncertainty. But I believe they realized liking the sense of purpose that would vanish once they admit it's all fun.

Let's also remember they were at the age when a month is a long, long time, and plenty of shit can happen/change in a week. They must have and probably did mature a lot within the year prior to the shooting. So it's possible what started out as a game evolved into a serious goal once playing at it was no longer fun, because they were no longer kids who make do with playing only.

patogen wrote:

I believe there was a "wouldn't it be cool?" moment followed by more or less serious progressive steps towards realization they might as well, as making pipe bombs and getting guns was totally feasible. More and more focusing on what's fucked up and shitty about the school and its people, they killed the reservation that kept them from actually doing it.  

I also believe all of the planning worked in the "child play" mode for a long time, along with cultivating their thug alter egos. There must have been a lot of "are we really doing it man? I can't believe we're doing it!" and some mutual uncertainty. But I believe they realized liking the sense of purpose that would vanish once they admit it's all fun.

Let's also remember they were at the age when a month is a long, long time, and plenty of shit can happen/change in a week. They must have and probably did mature a lot within the year prior to the shooting. So it's possible what started out as a game evolved into a serious goal once playing at it was no longer fun, because they were no longer kids who make do with playing only.

Very well said. I like your thoughts on this.

Hard to say and obviously a big question. In 1997 they were making pipe bombs and Eric wrote they need to find the place that will be "Ground zero". Brooks Brown's mom seems to take this as showing they were already planning something that early.

Eric's journal mentions going NBK as early as April of 98,and Dylan had already written about going NBK with a girl in February of 98. So I often wonder if around March of 98 they saw Natural Born Killers together and Dylan floated the idea. If I had to bet, that would be my guess, and I wouldn't bet much.

And of course, Eric mentions the point of no return when they get the guns in November, and also mentions joining the Marines may have stopped him, suggesting there were doubts of going through with it; and as late as February 99 is Dylan's comment about "maybe" going NBK "gawd" with Eric is the way to break free, which also seems to express some doubts of going through with it.

cakeman wrote:

Hard to say and obviously a big question. In 1997 they were making pipe bombs and Eric wrote they need to find the place that will be "Ground zero". Brooks Brown's mom seems to take this as showing they were already planning something that early.

Eric's journal mentions going NBK as early as April of 98,and Dylan had already written about going NBK with a girl in February of 98. So I often wonder if around March of 98 they saw Natural Born Killers together and Dylan floated the idea. If I had to bet, that would be my guess, and I wouldn't bet much.

And of course, Eric mentions the point of no return when they get the guns in November, and also mentions joining the Marines may have stopped him, suggesting there were doubts of going through with it; and as late as February 99 is Dylan's comment about "maybe" going NBK "gawd" with Eric is the way to break free, which also seems to express some doubts of going through with it.

Don't forget in Oct/Nov '97 Dylan wanted to get a gun and go on a shooting spree.

lol wrote:

cakeman wrote:

Hard to say and obviously a big question. In 1997 they were making pipe bombs and Eric wrote they need to find the place that will be "Ground zero". Brooks Brown's mom seems to take this as showing they were already planning something that early.

Eric's journal mentions going NBK as early as April of 98,and Dylan had already written about going NBK with a girl in February of 98. So I often wonder if around March of 98 they saw Natural Born Killers together and Dylan floated the idea. If I had to bet, that would be my guess, and I wouldn't bet much.

And of course, Eric mentions the point of no return when they get the guns in November, and also mentions joining the Marines may have stopped him, suggesting there were doubts of going through with it; and as late as February 99 is Dylan's comment about "maybe" going NBK "gawd" with Eric is the way to break free, which also seems to express some doubts of going through with it.

Don't forget in Oct/Nov '97 Dylan wanted to get a gun and go on a shooting spree.

True, but Feb of 98 (3 days after the van incident) Dylan is still fantasizing about a killing spree with a girl, and presumably with what you mention he's talking about doing it alone or similarly with a girl. Then April of 98 Eric is going to go NBK, and Dylan's writing in his yearbook in May seems to pretty clearly have the massacre in mind. So it seems to me on or about March of 98 is crucial. I'd wonder whether e. g. they saw Natural Born Killers together, or they were grounded from playing video games due to the van incident and so instead of playing Doom had to talk to each other about playing Doom IRL (this is basically Jerald Block's idea), or simply stewing over the van incident, or anything else going on at that time.

Do we know when "NBK.doc" was written? That seems to be a pretty early version of the plan.

cakeman wrote:

lol wrote:

cakeman wrote:

Hard to say and obviously a big question. In 1997 they were making pipe bombs and Eric wrote they need to find the place that will be "Ground zero". Brooks Brown's mom seems to take this as showing they were already planning something that early.

Eric's journal mentions going NBK as early as April of 98,and Dylan had already written about going NBK with a girl in February of 98. So I often wonder if around March of 98 they saw Natural Born Killers together and Dylan floated the idea. If I had to bet, that would be my guess, and I wouldn't bet much.

And of course, Eric mentions the point of no return when they get the guns in November, and also mentions joining the Marines may have stopped him, suggesting there were doubts of going through with it; and as late as February 99 is Dylan's comment about "maybe" going NBK "gawd" with Eric is the way to break free, which also seems to express some doubts of going through with it.

Don't forget in Oct/Nov '97 Dylan wanted to get a gun and go on a shooting spree.

True, but Feb of 98 (3 days after the van incident) Dylan is still fantasizing about a killing spree with a girl, and presumably with what you mention he's talking about doing it alone or similarly with a girl. Then April of 98 Eric is going to go NBK, and Dylan's writing in his yearbook in May seems to pretty clearly have the massacre in mind. So it seems to me on or about March of 98 is crucial. I'd wonder whether e. g. they saw Natural Born Killers together, or they were grounded from playing video games due to the van incident and so instead of playing Doom had to talk to each other about playing Doom IRL (this is basically Jerald Block's idea), or simply stewing over the van incident, or anything else going on at that time.

Do we know when "NBK.doc" was written? That seems to be a pretty early version of the plan.

Fascinating. What is this file you speak of? First time I've head this one.. What's the story on it?

I agree that it started as “bitching” about school or the “wouldn't we just show them” sort of banter to start. Dylan writes of going nbk with a girl and I don’t feel like he verbalized his dreams of doing this with anyone at that point. When you read Dylan’s writings in Eric’s yearbook he is giddy and childish in his words with going nbk soon. It’s like the cold, serious reality of it didn’t hit them until (probably) the day before; or maybe not until they fired their guns.

cakeman wrote:

True, but Feb of 98 (3 days after the van incident) Dylan is still fantasizing about a killing spree with a girl, and presumably with what you mention he's talking about doing it alone or similarly with a girl. Then April of 98 Eric is going to go NBK, and Dylan's writing in his yearbook in May seems to pretty clearly have the massacre in mind. So it seems to me on or about March of 98 is crucial. I'd wonder whether e. g. they saw Natural Born Killers together, or they were grounded from playing video games due to the van incident and so instead of playing Doom had to talk to each other about playing Doom IRL (this is basically Jerald Block's idea), or simply stewing over the van incident, or anything else going on at that time.

Do we know when "NBK.doc" was written? That seems to be a pretty early version of the plan.

Cakeman you always have such well thought out timelines of events!

LadyStardust wrote:

cakeman wrote:

True, but Feb of 98 (3 days after the van incident) Dylan is still fantasizing about a killing spree with a girl, and presumably with what you mention he's talking about doing it alone or similarly with a girl. Then April of 98 Eric is going to go NBK, and Dylan's writing in his yearbook in May seems to pretty clearly have the massacre in mind. So it seems to me on or about March of 98 is crucial. I'd wonder whether e. g. they saw Natural Born Killers together, or they were grounded from playing video games due to the van incident and so instead of playing Doom had to talk to each other about playing Doom IRL (this is basically Jerald Block's idea), or simply stewing over the van incident, or anything else going on at that time.

Do we know when "NBK.doc" was written? That seems to be a pretty early version of the plan.

Cakeman you always have such well thought out timelines of events!

You flatter me. There's a lot to be said about it. In April 98, Eric says when I go NBK, he doesn't say when V and I go NBK or something like that. However, the yearbook the next month pretty clearly has the massacre in mind, "The holy April morning of NBK" for instance, and it seems canon to say they planned for about a year as a result.  

On the Basement Tapes, on April 11 '99, there's this exchange
Dylan: We've been planning this for over eight months
Eric: At least.
Not sure what that references eight months ago; first day of school of senior year maybe?

NBK.doc unequivocally has an early version of the massacre though. The only thing I know to date it is that it's after he made his Doom WADs, since he mentions them. One could suspect it's early, since it seems like he decides to switch from computer to the journal so as not to leave such an obvious trace, and the plan is so very different. Then again, it seems to have the massacre so clearly in mind, maybe it was later. It seems to imply they don't have guns yet.

lol wrote:

Fascinating. What is this file you speak of? First time I've head this one.. What's the story on it?

Oh I trust you've heard of it. It's where we get the idea of crashing a plane into NYC, or the quote about "It's going to be like the LA Riots, the Oklahoma bombing, Vietnam, WW2, Duke, and Doom all mixed together." It was on Eric's computer, and otherwise speaks for itself.
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lol wrote:

cakeman wrote:

Hard to say and obviously a big question. In 1997 they were making pipe bombs and Eric wrote they need to find the place that will be "Ground zero". Brooks Brown's mom seems to take this as showing they were already planning something that early.

Eric's journal mentions going NBK as early as April of 98,and Dylan had already written about going NBK with a girl in February of 98. So I often wonder if around March of 98 they saw Natural Born Killers together and Dylan floated the idea. If I had to bet, that would be my guess, and I wouldn't bet much.

And of course, Eric mentions the point of no return when they get the guns in November, and also mentions joining the Marines may have stopped him, suggesting there were doubts of going through with it; and as late as February 99 is Dylan's comment about "maybe" going NBK "gawd" with Eric is the way to break free, which also seems to express some doubts of going through with it.

Don't forget in Oct/Nov '97 Dylan wanted to get a gun and go on a shooting spree.

Interestingly, Michael Carneal went on his killing spree in December of 1997, and Eric wrote a paper about the incident some time later (he incorrectly identified the shooting as having happened in Texas). Given how Eric brags on TBT about "having the idea before anyone else did", It's probably not unreasonable to conclude that the idea for a killing spree germinated within them during or prior to that year, and most likely prior to December of that year if Eric's telling the truth.

lol
I could see it unfolding like that. The theory that Dylan pitched the general idea and Eric became captivated with planning the attack seems most likely to me.

I do wonder if there was a definitive moment where they doubled down on the plan together, or if it turned in to a "guess we're actually doing this" moment, independent of each other.

I agree with this. A lot of their earlier writings, especially Eric’s, sounds like typical teen boy banter, even with the grandiose ideas of Eric’s (the computer document discussing the Oklahoma City Bombing, the LA Riots, Doom, etc.). Just joking around, being boys. Then it begins sounding as if each boy began having his own fantasies about what it would be like, again these are fantasies and not reality/concrete thinking. Then it felt halfhearted.

My personal opinion is that there was a particular bad day where they were both pissed off and felt insignificant/unimportant. They began talking about how “we should do something to show these assholes we aren’t going to take this laying down, we should show them, we’ll be the superior ones”. Pure speculation, but I feel like Eric would have been the victim and more set and did more talking. That doesn’t mean Dylan was this complete angel, he was probably talking too and building up Eric. Some incident like the ketchup tampon incident or some other form of bullying (I don’t know off the top of my head when that happened, it was in 1998 I believe). Who knows, perhaps it could be as simple as they saw one of their friends being mistreated and just got fed up. Their dreams went into reality.

My curiosity is what was the point or no return: the van break-in and the shame/embarrassment that came along with it, or purchasing the weapons? I think the van break-in firmly cemented the plan, and the point of no return was purchasing the weapons. Eric even writes this in his journal.

QuestionMark wrote:

lol wrote:

cakeman wrote:

Hard to say and obviously a big question. In 1997 they were making pipe bombs and Eric wrote they need to find the place that will be "Ground zero". Brooks Brown's mom seems to take this as showing they were already planning something that early.

Eric's journal mentions going NBK as early as April of 98,and Dylan had already written about going NBK with a girl in February of 98. So I often wonder if around March of 98 they saw Natural Born Killers together and Dylan floated the idea. If I had to bet, that would be my guess, and I wouldn't bet much.

And of course, Eric mentions the point of no return when they get the guns in November, and also mentions joining the Marines may have stopped him, suggesting there were doubts of going through with it; and as late as February 99 is Dylan's comment about "maybe" going NBK "gawd" with Eric is the way to break free, which also seems to express some doubts of going through with it.

Don't forget in Oct/Nov '97 Dylan wanted to get a gun and go on a shooting spree.

Interestingly, Michael Carneal went on his killing spree in December of 1997, and Eric wrote a paper about the incident some time later (he incorrectly identified the shooting as having happened in Texas). Given how Eric brags on TBT about "having the idea before anyone else did", It's probably not unreasonable to conclude that the idea for a killing spree germinated within them during or prior to that year, and most likely prior to December of that year if Eric's telling the truth.

I think that was Eric just being showboaty, to be honest. Of course, he and Dylan never had the idea first. Look at the Texas Tower shooting, that was in '66. I don't know if I would take his word on that or not.

Anyways, another school shooting to keep in mind would be the one that happened in Jonesboro, AR. in 1998. I always assumed that was the shooting he was referring to when saying he and Dylan had the idea first. It was only a year prior to Columbine which is why I always thought they pinpointed that shooting specifically. It seems that they definitely were in the planning stages by '98.

Edit: am dumb

hvernon wrote:

Anyways, another school shooting to keep in mind would be the one that happened in Carbondale, IL in 1998. I always assumed that was the shooting he was referring to when saying he and Dylan had the idea first. It was only a year prior to Columbine which is why I always thought they pinpointed that shooting specifically. It seems that they definely were in the planning stages by '98.

Carbondale Illinois? I've never heard of a shooting happening there. Source?

QuestionMark wrote:

hvernon wrote:

Anyways, another school shooting to keep in mind would be the one that happened in Carbondale, IL in 1998. I always assumed that was the shooting he was referring to when saying he and Dylan had the idea first. It was only a year prior to Columbine which is why I always thought they pinpointed that shooting specifically. It seems that they definely were in the planning stages by '98.

Carbondale Illinois? I've never heard of a shooting happening there. Source?

Pfft, I'm retarded. I was watching the local news and totally typed the name of the town I heard out loud instead of Jonesboro, AR.

hvernon wrote:

QuestionMark wrote:

hvernon wrote:

Anyways, another school shooting to keep in mind would be the one that happened in Carbondale, IL in 1998. I always assumed that was the shooting he was referring to when saying he and Dylan had the idea first. It was only a year prior to Columbine which is why I always thought they pinpointed that shooting specifically. It seems that they definely were in the planning stages by '98.

Carbondale Illinois? I've never heard of a shooting happening there. Source?

Pfft, I'm retarded. I was watching the local news and totally typed the name of the town I heard out loud instead of Jonesboro, AR.

Ah, I see.

Jonesboro was March of 98, fitting with the above timeline, and had two shooters. I have to agree that "we came up with the idea first" was just sour grapes after finding they weren't the first to do it.  Transcriptions of the Basement Tapes differ on whether they mentioned Arkansas and Kentucky (i. e., Johnson and Golden in Jonesboro and Carneal) or Oregon and Kentucky (i. e. Kinkel and Carneal).

cakeman wrote:

Jonesboro was March of 98, fitting with the above timeline, and had two shooters. I have to agree that "we came up with the idea first" was just sour grapes after finding they weren't the first to do it.  Transcriptions of the Basement Tapes differ on whether they mentioned Arkansas and Kentucky (i. e., Johnson and Golden in Jonesboro and Carneal) or Oregon and Kentucky (i. e. Kinkel and Carneal).

It's also worth mentioning that Eric kept fucking up the state locations of where the shootings took place. He said on TBT "we're not like those fucks in Kentucky with cameo gear and .22's", but that quote is generally interpreted as referring to Jonesboro, which happened in Arkansas. Likewise, Eric's school paper written about Michael Carneal's rampage incorrectly identified the state it happened in as Texas.

QuestionMark wrote:

cakeman wrote:

Jonesboro was March of 98, fitting with the above timeline, and had two shooters. I have to agree that "we came up with the idea first" was just sour grapes after finding they weren't the first to do it.  Transcriptions of the Basement Tapes differ on whether they mentioned Arkansas and Kentucky (i. e., Johnson and Golden in Jonesboro and Carneal) or Oregon and Kentucky (i. e. Kinkel and Carneal).

It's also worth mentioning that Eric kept fucking up the state locations of where the shootings took place. He said on TBT "we're not like those fucks in Kentucky with cameo gear and .22's", but that quote is generally interpreted as referring to Jonesboro, which happened in Arkansas. Likewise, Eric's school paper written about Michael Carneal's rampage incorrectly identified the state it happened in as Texas.

If he was confusing them, I wonder if that lends support to "Arkansas and Kentucky" as the correct transcript. Maybe he was hedging. Though camo and plural sounds like Jonesboro, .22 sounds like Carneal.