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 Dylan's motive

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PostSubject: Dylan's motive   Dylan's motive Icon_minitimeThu Feb 15, 2024 1:58 am

Hello everyone, I would like to know your opinion.
Eric's motive is more or less clear: misanthropy, revenge for ridicule, hatred of himself and the world.
What was Dylan's motive, given that the first entries in his diary were about murder from 1997?
he wanted his NBK with a serene girl, just violence for the sake of violence?
Кто что думает по этому поводу?
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PostSubject: Re: Dylan's motive   Dylan's motive Icon_minitimeThu Feb 15, 2024 4:44 am


When it comes to Dylan's motive, I get to put on my 'OG hat' and quote my post from the old Danny Ledonne forums from circa early 2006:

"In this case I'm pretty sure that a Schizotypal diagnosis is much more fitting and explains much more about Dylan than an avoidant diagnosis.

To explain in depth what I mean, let me quote the DSM-IV TR criteria of an Avoidant PD (4 or more are enough to diagnose avoidant PD):
1) Avoids occupational activities that involve significant interpersonal contact, because of fears of criticism, disapproval, or rejection.
2) Is unwilling to get involved with people unless certain of being liked
3) Shows restraint initiating intimate relationships because of the fear of being ashamed, ridiculed, or rejected due to severe low self-worth.
4) Is preoccupied with being criticized or rejected in social situations
5) Is inhibited in new interpersonal situations because of feelings of inadequacy
6) Views self as socially inept, personally unappealing, or inferior to others
7) Is unusually reluctant to take personal risks or to engage in any new activities because they may prove embarrassing

Now the Schizotypal criteria (the presence of 5 or more are enough to diagnose Schizotypal PD):
1. Ideas of reference (excluding delusions of reference)
2. Odd beliefs or magical thinking that influences behavior and is inconsistent with subcultural norms (e.g., superstitiousness, bizarre fantasies or preoccupations)
3.. Unusual perceptual experiences, including bodily illusions
4. Odd thinking and speech (e.g., vague, circumstantial, metaphorical, overelaborate, or stereotyped)
5. Suspiciousness or paranoid ideation
6. Inappropriate or constricted affect
7. Behavior or appearance that is odd, eccentric, or peculiar
Cool Lack of close friends or confidants other than first-degree relatives
9. Social anxiety that tends to be associated with paranoid fears rather than negative judgments about self

Now, one should realize that Schizoid PD, Schizotypal PD, Avoidant PD and some social phobias have a set of common traits and can be easily mistaken for one another. It is the presence of some "small" traits that often escape the untrained eye, that make the "big" difference.

For example some Schizoids are very similar to some Avoidants. The difference is that avoidants are afraid of social contact, while schizoids simply do not want to engage in it, but do not experience fear.

Back to Dylan:
A simple avoidant diagnosis would be possible, but the schizotypal diagnosis fits better and explains some very unusual traits of Dylan that are left unanswered in case of an avoidant diagnosis. Thus IMHO a schizotyapl diagnosis should take precedence.

Dylan clearly had strong ideas of reference ("The lost highway" and "NBK" - Eric had that too, but to a far lesser degree and his beliefs were more rooted in reality so to speak).

"Magical thinking and odd beliefs" - Dylan seems a textbook case, really. It is actually quite rare to see such obvious and clear examples of this in someone's writings as you can see in Dylan's journal. His ideas of "love" (he has a very unusual use of this word), his ideas of "Halycon", his ideas of "fakeness and artificiality", his ideas of "infinity", his concept of "zombies"... all seem to be perfect, even textbook examples.

Dylan did have "unusual perceptual experiences including bodily illusions". He himself wrote: "when did Dylan Benet Klebold got covered up by this entity containing Dylan's body" or "It's interesting, when i'm in my human form, knowing i'm going to die. Everything has a touch of triviality to it."
Its rare to get such glimpses into one's percetions just through one's writings, but Dylan provided us such glimpses.

"Odd thinking and speech (e.g., vague, circumstantial, metaphorical, overelaborate, or stereotyped)" - Hard to say without more material (interview, a longer video of him talking about something in depth), but we are all familiar with his vague and metaphorical way of writing. If his way of writing was a good example of his way of thinking then I think we all agree that he fits this criterion perfectly. Plus his talk about halycon or self-awareness is definitally not something commont to average 1990s teenagers.

"Suspiciousness or paranoid ideation" - This in my opinion the criterion which makes me convinced that if Dylan had anyhthing, then it was this criterion tha makes me sure that he had Schizotypal, not avoidant PD.
Avoidants are "afraid" of other people, but they seek their love and acceptance. They are almost never "paranoid" in the clinical sense.
Dylan WAS paranoid. He wrote: "everyone is conspiring against me" and "All people i ever might have loved have abandoned me, my parents piss me off & hate me". He wasn't afraid of people, he was disgusted and felt superior to them.

"Inappropriate or constricted affect" - Unlike what it seems, this isn't as much about ideas of affection (like Dylan's ideas of love) but rather actions and behavior.
Without knowing or observing Dylan, its not really possible to determine this.

"Behavior or appearance that is odd, eccentric, or peculiar" - I don't think I need to comment on this. Everyone who knew how Dylan dressed and behaved knows what I mean.

"Lack of close friends or confidants other than first-degree relatives" - Nope, doesn't apply to Dylan.

"Social anxiety that tends to be associated with paranoid fears rather than negative judgments about self" - Debatable, because Dylan had both paranoid fears AND negative judgements about self and we cannot be sure what was the cause. So without an interview or observation of a live specimen of Dylan Klebold, we cannot really say if it fits or not.

So all in all we get 6 citerions he fits (often perfectly), 2 criterions he may or may not fit (observation would be required to clear our doubts) and one that he doesn't fit. Overall this is more than enough to make a Schizotypal hypotesis.

HOWEVER let me once again state: "any diagnosis made without actual contact with the individual is only speculative". Since Dylan is dead NOBODY can make a definite diagnosis.

I just provided arguments in favor of the Schizotypal hypotesis and the more I learn about Dylan, the more I'm sure that its a very plausible possiblity.

So, this was my original theory about Dylan. Dylan suffered from schizotypal PD. He was without a doubt also depressed. Which happens to a lot of people with schizotypal PD. Suicide is also frequent in the case of both clinical depression and SPD.

Now, the big question is of course: "So where did homicide and homicial fantasises enter the picture and why"? Dylan mentions his homiciadl fantasies in writing earlier than Eric does. But it is also true taht Dylan simply kept a memoir longer and started writing earlier than Eric did.

I do not think we will ever be able to find out what had originally caused homicidal fantasies to appear in Dylan's mind. Was it his own power fantasy? Was it something he develiopped through interacting with Eric? Cause it certainly seems more like something that fits Eric's personality. We can't be sure

Either way, once Dylan was depressed, suicidal and he confied in Eric when it comees to homicidal fantasies, the whole thing snowballed. Dylan was the dreamer, but Eric was the planner and the practical of the two. I can't prove it, but I believe that once Eric and Dylan shared each otehr's homicidal fantasies, Eric convinced Dylan that these could be implemented in practice. That's when they started thinking of getting guns and started making real pipebombs as opposed to just co2 firecrackers.

That's my take on it. The 'motive' were Dylan's internal beliefs and his mental condition.

Sure, he went to a school full of born-again christians, brain-dead jcoks and bullies. The school administrtaion sucked. Dylan's brother was a drug addict. Dylan had issues with his other fmaily members. That's all true and these environmental factors probably contributed to his depression and his "world sucks, peopel are sheep" beliefset.

But the environmental factors imho just fuelled his depression and anger. They did not in themselves caus ethe shootings, nor was revenge against his family or against the jocks the reason behind the spree-homicide.

Life is like a tram - you need to know when to get off.

"Bullet Time" - a school shooting film from Poland

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PostSubject: Re: Dylan's motive   Dylan's motive Icon_minitimeSat Feb 17, 2024 8:40 am


Finally, at long last, I can show the world my true worth.

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PostSubject: Re: Dylan's motive   Dylan's motive Icon_minitimeTue Mar 12, 2024 3:11 am

It seems to me at least dylan if not both want to be lost among the victims. Suicidal guy who doesnt wanna go down to history as a suicidal guy. I think his suicide method was inspired by Murdoch in the film Titanic for that reason. The final molotov was to light their last bombs which were in their pants and at their feet. Indeed it seems to me Dylan was the bomb tech. Hence one reason they failed.

In NBK.doc eric wasnt even sure theyd have guns for the attack. In the basement tapes, he called the napalm launcher out of the game Blood the original "suicide plan" and wrote in diversion killing was justified if somebody was gonna blow up others *and themselves*. Dylan said one night he'd tie the one named Atlanta to his neck. So bombs were initial suicide plan just as initial attack plan.

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PostSubject: Re: Dylan's motive   Dylan's motive Icon_minitimeTue Mar 12, 2024 3:27 pm

Despair, loneliness, and a strong desire to die
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