Ketchup incident - it never happened?

That's one thing that Krabbe stated taht made me think. I never found references to this in 11k, but this was so commonly accepted as fact (and somewhat a peripheral issue for columbine in my own opinion) that I guess I never cared enough to check. Krabbe states taht this is not substantiated and never occured.

I'm referign to the alleged incident in teh cafeteria where they had tampons dipped in ketchup thrown at them.

Anyone has any info on this?

I think it did happen. I mean Dylan did write in Eric's yearbook something about taking revenge in commons. Also if I'm correct Brooks Brown and Chad Laughlin mentioned it and supposedly Dylan told his mum it was the worst day of his life.

Dylan'sgirl wrote:

I think it did happen. I mean Dylan did write in Eric's yearbook something about taking revenge in commons. Also if I'm correct Brooks Brown and Chad Laughlin mentioned it and supposedly Dylan told his mum it was the worst day of his life.

I know the "revenge in commons" quote, but its not written what is the revenge for. Moreover I think the quote means that the revenge will take place in the commons (bomb plan), not that the event that cased teh revenge took place there.

I'll need to look at the Brooks book, will prolly do it in the next few days (I'll be back with the hicks in teh sticks as I have a few days of from work now).

Both Chad and Brooks speak of it. Even Dylan said it was the 'worst day of his life'. Why would Chad make it up?

If it wasn't Brooks, I believe Brooks father stated it.
It also doesn't help that their junior year was probably the worst year of bullying for them because Rocky and the other scumbags.

Marijuana Incident & Van Break In...both the same month.
Ketchup Incident
"Why don't you two faggots start kissing?"
Computer Hacking Incident - October '97; Dylan, Zack, and Eric got suspended. I believe Devon was on this too.
Locker Incident - Feb '98; Dylan suspended for trying to scratch something in a freshman's locker because he was being harassed by said freshman.

Some of the bullying Eric and Dylan endured at Columbine.
Everyone referred to them as the "Trench Coat Mafia". My friend referred to them as the "RammStein Boyz".
Whatever you wanted to call them, you could tell they were different. Well, one day, my friend snarled a remark about Rammstein under his breath as we passed these 2 guys.
The short one who was named Eric Harris confronted my friend about it.
He said "Everyday you pass me and make fun of me saying Rammstein sucks. Why do you do this crap *beep* What did I do to you?"
My friend replied "Oh man your so cool, you're my idol!"
Then Eric's friend Dylan approached us seeming to back up his friend.
I really didn't want to get involved in a fight even though I knew these guys wouldn?t stand a chance.
I was afraid of things they might do to us.
Eric was a short clean cut looking kid and Dylan was a very tall skinny guy with messed up hair.
He always wore the trench coat, a hat and dark sunglasses.
The bell rang and they left and we went into class.
That was the end of the confrontation."
-Zach Johnston; Student at Columbine
Hoffschneider's circle -- known as "the steroid poster boys" -- had
their cafeteria table.
On the other side of the room, shy skinny boys
-- among them Harris and Klebold -- claimed a table, too. The athletes
threw Skittles candy and food at them, said senior John Savage.
On at least one occasion this harassment went even farther.
Hoffschneider and his friends surrounded Harris and Klebold's table and Hoffschneider taunted them thustly-" Why don't you two fags kiss? You guys are such sweethearts."
"Columbine is a clean, good place except for those rejects (Eric Harris, Dylan Klebold and other outcasts) ... Sure, we teased them. But what do you expect with kids who come to school with weird hairdos and horns on their hats? It's not just the jocks; the whole school's disgusted with them. They're a bunch of homos... If you want to get rid of someone usually you tease 'em. So the whole school would call them homos..."-Columbine student Evan Todd , Time magazine December 1999
The other students, who came to know Mr. Harris and Mr. Klebold from mingling in the hallways and the commons, said the two youths had wanted to portray themselves as rebels . But they were mostly viewed as losers.
May , 1999.
Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold unleashed the full fury of their murderous rage after a group of girls accused them of being gay lovers.
Pushed to the edge by school athletes who shoved them around and called them *beep* the two outsiders finally snapped from this final humiliation.
The girls taunted Eric and Dylan in the school library -- the exact area where the two enraged gunmen returned to mow down most of their victims.
"There was an incident a year ago that set Eric and Dylan off on their murderous course," a fellow student divulged to The ENQUIRER.
"They were sitting in the library wearing their ridiculous heavy black coats on a warm spring day last April. A group of girls was sniggering at the table next to them, and Eric finally asked what they were laughing at.
"One of them told him, 'You guys look alike, talk alike and are always together. We just want to know when you're getting married!'
"A look of rage came over Eric's face and he made a fist at the girl. 'Shut up!' he shouted.
"Dylan got up and screamed, 'You're all so stupid! Everyone in this school is stupid! You better watch it!'
"They both stormed out of the library, kicking chairs as they went.
"The girls were stunned -- they were only teasing the guys. It was no big deal to them.
"The boys vowed the school was going to pay for the humiliation they put them through. And when the bloodbath happened, we wondered if they attacked people in the library with special ferocity because of the humiliation they had suffered there."
True to their word, Eric and Dylan began plotting their strategy for the attack after being embarrassed by the girls. It took them a year to prepare and build their arsenal.
Incidents from the offical Police reports
John Savage
: 566: DK taunted for clothes
Josh Chavez
: 736: DK made fun of in gym; called Stretch; uncoordinated, not good at sports
Danielle Danford
: 770: DK once spoke of jocks giving him trouble
Joseph Ragole
: 1,102: jocks picked on EH/DK in halls
Jordan Grimm
: 5,70102: he taunted DK about coat
Mr. Peter Horvath
(CHS dean): 5,708:34 weeks prior to attack, EH and DK said a student was mouthy to them
Susan DeWitt
: 6,196: EH mad at Mike Dinkle for making fun of him (apparently this was behind EHs back); (also
noted in Susans report on p. 18,390: EH upset/hurt that Mike Dinkle made fun of him)
Dustin Harrison
: 6,576: E &D harrassed about clothes; 6577: teachers did not intervene when EH/DK were harassed in class
Dustin Thurmon
: 7,261: made fun of EH/DK for trench coats in 90 degrees; taunted them in bowling class
Mollie Weksler
: 7,35758: teachers and a staff member picked on EH/DK
Frank Zirger
Chris Morris
: 9,823: EH picked on by jocks because he was small
Mr. Robert Kirgis
: 10,160/10,170: heard EH/DK mention they were picked on by jocks
[Blacked out]
: 10,264: relentless in his abuse of EH during gym; EH bad in sports; others teased him, too
[Blacked out]
: 10,265: had friends who taunted EH
[Blacked out]
: 10,273: made fun of EH in gym; had big head on skinny body; made fun of lots of people (not just EH)
Robert Kirgis
: 10,49092: EH and DK said they got picked on because they were nerds
Kristi Epling / Alyssa Sechler
: 10,71819: EH was teased by jocks for how he dressed and his size
Cory Friesen
: 10,726: he said EH/DK were picked on constantly at school
Chris Morris
: 10,83435: EH picked on more than DK; EH depressed about his size and getting picked on
Robert Perry
: 10,853: like a lot of other TCM members, he [EH] had been constantly picked on, taunted, and had
food thrown at him
[Blacked out]
: 18,989: student had run-ins with Rocky Hoffschneider, who had also harassed EH/DK
[Blacked out]
: 19,648: DK made fun of because he didnt fit in and was very odd
[Blacked out]
: 19,710: he and others teased EH relentlessly in gym because he was bad at sports
(Misplaced the page no.Let me know if you want to see it and I'll try to find it)
Eric held down in gym class by several people and battered in the face over and over by a volleyball
Other accounts:
In fact, a typical Columbine school day for Harris and Klebold was torture. Former student Devon Adams told the Governor's Columbine Review Commission that the boys were regularly called *beep* weirdoes, and freaks.'
Harris got it worse than most, not just because he dressed weird or was one of the computer nerds, but also because he was short, he was a transplant from out-of-state (like Andy Williams) and, due to an embarrassing indent in his chest, he never took his shirt off during P.E., giving the jocks more ammo to attack him.
Former Columbine student Brooks Brown recounted one incident: 'I was smoking cigarettes with [Klebold and Harris] when a bunch of football players drove by, yelled insults, and threw a glass bottle that shattered near Dylan's feet. I was pissed, but Eric and Dylan didn't even flinch. 'Don't worry about it, man,' Dylan said. 'It happens all the time.'"
Once, a student reported them to the administration for allegedly having brought drugs to school, just to humiliate them for a laugh. Harris and Klebold were dramatically removed from class and searched -- as were their lockers and cars. No drugs were found, but the damage was done.
They were so marked for abuse that even talking to them was dangerous. One female student recounted how, when she was a Columbine freshman, some jocks spotted her talking to Dylan Klebold in the school hallway between classes. After she walked away from him, one of the bullies slammed her against the lockers and called her a "fag lover." None of the students came to help her -- and when asked later why she didn't report the incident to the administration, she replied, "It wouldn't do any good because they wouldn't do anything about it."
People surrounded them in the commons and threw ketchup covered tampons all over them, laughing at them, calling them *beep* Brown says. "That happened while teachers watched. They couldn't fight back. They wore the ketchup all day and went home covered with it."
" I know Dylan told his mother that it was the worst day of his life.said Chad Laughlin"
Klebold may have been referencing this incident when he wrote in Harris' yearbook of taking "our revenge in the commons.
Eric and Dylan, who usually wore black instead of the standard Columbine jacket and sweats, came in for similar harsh treatment. Jocks pushed them against lockers, yelled *beep* and "loser" at them while they ate lunch in the cafeteria.
Eric and Dylan took the brunt of a lot of people's aggression," says Brooks Brown.
"The stuff wasn't always noticeable," says Devon Adams. "There's 2,000 kids in our school, all trying to go down one hallway in a certain period. Unless a full-on fight breaks out, you can't really see what's going on. Dylan would say it made him mad. He and Eric never asked for it. They never fought back, either."
"Every day being teased and picked on, pushed up against lockers just the general feeling of fear in the school. And you either respond to a fear by having fear, or you take action and have hate. And defend yourself. And they chose a real disgusting way of doing that.Brooks Brown in Rolling Stone
Blackjack co workers Kim and Sara grew closer to Eric. He complained that some jocks were bullying him.
Sara never witnessed any taunting, but she did see classmates give Eric weird looks. She thought it was because of how he dressed. The boy who wore khaki when he started at Blackjack now draped himself in black cargo pants and black T-shirts.
Kim and Sara couldn't understand why their classmates didn't like Eric.
"No one ever gave him a chance," Kim said.
Sara Schweitzberger, 15, had a gym class with Mr. Klebold, and said it was obvious he felt socially ostracized. ''He really felt unloved,'' she said. ''He wasn't so bad. He was lonely. I just wish I could give him a hug and tell him that I care.
Newsweek quotes a classmate saying that the two often walked the halls of Columbine "with their heads down, because if they looked up they'd get thrown into lockers and get called a fag
Time reports that they were routinely physically threatened and taunted as "dirt bags" and "inbreeds"
Finally,some of what E &D themselves left behind regarding them being bullied
Dylan:
I swear, like im an outcast, & everyone is conspiring against me"-May '97
My god, I have always been hated, by everyone & everything, just now more-September '97
Dylan: "If you could see all the anger I've stored over the past four *beep* years..."
Dylan: "You made me what I am. You added to the rage."
Dylan says that as far back as the Foothills Day Care center he hated the "stuck-up" kids who he felt hated him. "Being shy didn't help. I'm going to kill you all. You've been giving us *beep* for years."-March'99
Eric:
Everyone is always making fun of me because of how I look, how *beep* weak I am and *beep* well I will get you all back: ultimate *beep* revenge here. you people could have shown more respect, treated me better, asked for knowledge or guidence more, treated me more like a senior and maybe I wouldn't have been as ready to tear your *beep* heads off. Then again, I have always hated how I looked, I make fun of people who look like me, sometimes without even thinking sometimes just because I want to rip on myself. Thats where a lot of my hate grows from. The fact that I have practically no self esteem, especially concerning girls and looks and such. therefore people make fun of me .. constantly..therefore I get no respect and therefore I get *beep* PISSED -November '98
Eric:
I hate you people for leaving me out of so many fun things. And no don't *beep* say, "well thats your fault" because it isnt, you people had my phone #, and I asked and all, but no. no no dont let the weird looking Eric KID come along, ohh *beep* nooo. 4/3/99
Eric: "I'm sorry I have so much rage, but you put it on me."

lol wrote:

Both Chad and Brooks speak of it. Even Dylan said it was the 'worst day of his life'. Why would Chad make it up?

If it wasn't Brooks, I believe Brooks father stated it.
It also doesn't help that their junior year was probably the worst year of bullying for them because Rocky and the other scumbags.

Marijuana Incident & Van Break In...both the same month.
Ketchup Incident
"Why don't you two faggots start kissing?"
Computer Hacking Incident - October '97; Dylan, Zack, and Eric got suspended. I believe Devon was on this too.
Locker Incident - Feb '98; Dylan suspended for trying to scratch something in a freshman's locker because he was being harassed by said freshman.

Well, I think the locker incident was clearly him having scratched something, as IIRC Dylan had to buy a new locker door from his own money. So the door must have been damaged.

As for the junior year being the worst... I'm not so sure. Certianly it was a bad year for CHS in general, as said jock group were seniors and felt like they have even more rigths to push people around.
E&D bullying wise? Not certain. By their junior year they were already associated with Joe Stair&Co, so that alone ofered some protection in comparison to students who had no clique affiliation whatsoever. Also it seems to be a US tradition taht its freshmen who are pushed around the most. IIRC the most bullying reports came from witnesses who were freshmen in the 1997-1998 school year.

I'd risk a bet taht E&D were "the usual suspects" and were bullied most during their freshmen year, like most other students.

Dylan'sgirl wrote:

Dylan: "If you could see all the anger I've stored over the past four *beep* years..."
Dylan: "You made me what I am. You added to the rage."

That's the basement tape alleged rant, but the people who reported hearing this stated that it was Dylan ranting against his family, not other students.

Dylan'sgirl wrote:

Everyone is always making fun of me because of how I look, how *beep* weak I am and *beep* well I will get you all back: ultimate *beep* revenge here. you people could have shown more respect, treated me better, asked for knowledge or guidence more, treated me more like a senior and maybe I wouldn't have been as ready to tear your *beep* heads off. Then again, I have always hated how I looked, I make fun of people who look like me, sometimes without even thinking sometimes just because I want to rip on myself. Thats where a lot of my hate grows from. The fact that I have practically no self esteem, especially concerning girls and looks and such. therefore people make fun of me .. constantly..therefore I get no respect and therefore I get *beep* PISSED -November '98

Eric:
I hate you people for leaving me out of so many fun things. And no don't *beep* say, "well thats your fault" because it isnt, you people had my phone #, and I asked and all, but no. no no dont let the weird looking Eric KID come along, ohh *beep* nooo. 4/3/99

I think Eric's case is clear here, in his writings he is ranting aginst people who were "leaving him out of so many fun things" - which means cool people who he likes but who don't necessarily want him around. Its aimed at his so called "friends" who don't give him repsect and laugh at him when he's not around, its not aimed at jocks abusing him.

Tim Krabbe mentions this particular line ("you people had my phone # and I asked and all") and according to him this refers specifically to some event that Robyn Anderson and her friends had, but Eric was not invited.

There aren't many reports of them ever being bullied from freshman year, besides a few times Brooks spoke of, not nearly as much as in their junior year.

Also Eric had a jock brother in his freshman year. Kevin played football for Columbine, and Byron was still at Columbine when both Dylan and Eric transferred, so they did have some "protection", more so on Eric with Kevin being a member of the football team and all. It seems things got worst with them in their junior year. This is the most reports we've received on how bad their bullying was that year. It was the same year where they started dressing differently too. Dylan started wearing a trench coat in Sep '97 after his 16th bday, while Eric started wearing a trench coat around Jan/Feb '98. They were made fun of lot because of these coats.

lol wrote:

There aren't many reports of them ever being bullied from freshman year, besides a few times Brooks spoke of, not nearly as much as in their junior year.

Also Eric had a jock brother in his freshman year. Kevin played football for Columbine, and Byron was still at Columbine when both Dylan and Eric transferred, so they did have some "protection", more so on Eric with Kevin being a member of the football team and all. It seems things got worst with them in their junior year. This is the most reports we've received on how bad their bullying was that year. It was the same year where they started dressing differently too. Dylan started wearing a trench coat in Sep '97 after his 16th bday, while Eric started wearing a trench coat around Jan/Feb '98. They were made fun of lot because of these coats.

Yeah but their brothers didn't do anything. You said they had 'protection' but I highly doubt that. I have seen somewhere that Byron was mean to Dylan when he was around with his 'jock' friends.

Byron had a drug problem and overall Dylan and Byron did not get all that well at some point. But it seems that by late 1998 and early 1999 Dylan and Byron ahd generally come to terms in some way.

Eric and Kevin never had any issues with one another as far as we know, Eric did list Kevin as his favorite family member in a quiz in 1999.


Eitehr way... the thread is going off topic and I relaly want to pusue the main issue which is Krabbe saying there is no evidence for the ketchup incident. So far people poitned to Chad and Brooks as sources, I'll look into both. I just wonder if there's any mention by witnessess in 11k?
I know there's 11k reports of bullying of various types, including stuff taht happened to people other than E&D.

Dylan'sgirl wrote:

lol wrote:

There aren't many reports of them ever being bullied from freshman year, besides a few times Brooks spoke of, not nearly as much as in their junior year.

Also Eric had a jock brother in his freshman year. Kevin played football for Columbine, and Byron was still at Columbine when both Dylan and Eric transferred, so they did have some "protection", more so on Eric with Kevin being a member of the football team and all. It seems things got worst with them in their junior year. This is the most reports we've received on how bad their bullying was that year. It was the same year where they started dressing differently too. Dylan started wearing a trench coat in Sep '97 after his 16th bday, while Eric started wearing a trench coat around Jan/Feb '98. They were made fun of lot because of these coats.

Yeah but their brothers didn't do anything. You said they had 'protection' but I highly doubt that. I have seen somewhere that Byron was mean to Dylan when he was around with his 'jock' friends.

How do you know their brothers didn't do anything?

I'll give you that on Byron because his relationship with Dylan was poor, but Kevin and Eric had a very good relationship.

Also offtopic: Your username....ugh. I hope your bf or someone you know is named Dylan, and it is not who I am thinking of

lol wrote:

Dylan'sgirl wrote:

lol wrote:

There aren't many reports of them ever being bullied from freshman year, besides a few times Brooks spoke of, not nearly as much as in their junior year.

Also Eric had a jock brother in his freshman year. Kevin played football for Columbine, and Byron was still at Columbine when both Dylan and Eric transferred, so they did have some "protection", more so on Eric with Kevin being a member of the football team and all. It seems things got worst with them in their junior year. This is the most reports we've received on how bad their bullying was that year. It was the same year where they started dressing differently too. Dylan started wearing a trench coat in Sep '97 after his 16th bday, while Eric started wearing a trench coat around Jan/Feb '98. They were made fun of lot because of these coats.

Yeah but their brothers didn't do anything. You said they had 'protection' but I highly doubt that. I have seen somewhere that Byron was mean to Dylan when he was around with his 'jock' friends.

How do you know their brothers didn't do anything?

I'll give you that on Byron because his relationship with Dylan was poor, but Kevin and Eric had a very good relationship.

Also offtopic: Your username....ugh. I hope your bf or someone you know is named Dylan, and it is not who I am thinking of

Sorry my fault.
I asumed he didn't do much to help Eric's case. And since he was in a way a JOCK he was most likely hanging out with most of them. I'm not saying they had bad relationship, as I know Kevin was his favourite family member.

Offtopic: My nicnkame is a bit personal thing for me to tell you why it is the way it is. It's just a coincidence that one of the shooters name was Dylan, thank you very much.

Dylan's mom mentions the ketchup incident in Far From The Tree. According to her it really happenend. This book was published in late 2012 I think.

Far From The Tree wrote:

Unbeknownst to the Klebolds, Dylan had experienced significant humiliation at school, though he was six feet four and not easy to push around. He had come home one day with ketchup spots all over his shirt, and when his mother asked what had happened, he said he’d had the worst day of his life and didn’t want to talk about it. Months after his death, she learned of an incident in which Dylan and Eric had apparently been shoved and squirted with ketchup by kids calling them fags. “It hurt so much that I’d seen the remnants of that day and hadn’t helped him,” she said. When Tom went to pick up Dylan’s car from the police station a few weeks after the event, one of the officers said to him, “My son came home from that school one day and they’d set his hair on fire right in the hall—his whole scalp was burned. I wanted to take that school apart brick by brick, but he said it would only make it worse.”

MegaloX wrote:

Dylan's mom mentions the ketchup incident in Far From The Tree. According to her it really happenend. This book was published in late 2012 I think.

Far From The Tree wrote:

Unbeknownst to the Klebolds, Dylan had experienced significant humiliation at school, though he was six feet four and not easy to push around. He had come home one day with ketchup spots all over his shirt, and when his mother asked what had happened, he said he’d had the worst day of his life and didn’t want to talk about it. Months after his death, she learned of an incident in which Dylan and Eric had apparently been shoved and squirted with ketchup by kids calling them fags. “It hurt so much that I’d seen the remnants of that day and hadn’t helped him,” she said. When Tom went to pick up Dylan’s car from the police station a few weeks after the event, one of the officers said to him, “My son came home from that school one day and they’d set his hair on fire right in the hall—his whole scalp was burned. I wanted to take that school apart brick by brick, but he said it would only make it worse.”

Just the sort of info I was lookign for. Thanks.

So yeah, I previously assumed the ketchup incident was real. then Krabbe's book made me doubt and wanted to check, thhis confirms the Krabbe error. Once again, thanks MegaloX for clearing up this thing.

Dylan'sgirl wrote:

lol wrote:

Dylan'sgirl wrote:

lol wrote:

There aren't many reports of them ever being bullied from freshman year, besides a few times Brooks spoke of, not nearly as much as in their junior year.

Also Eric had a jock brother in his freshman year. Kevin played football for Columbine, and Byron was still at Columbine when both Dylan and Eric transferred, so they did have some "protection", more so on Eric with Kevin being a member of the football team and all. It seems things got worst with them in their junior year. This is the most reports we've received on how bad their bullying was that year. It was the same year where they started dressing differently too. Dylan started wearing a trench coat in Sep '97 after his 16th bday, while Eric started wearing a trench coat around Jan/Feb '98. They were made fun of lot because of these coats.

Yeah but their brothers didn't do anything. You said they had 'protection' but I highly doubt that. I have seen somewhere that Byron was mean to Dylan when he was around with his 'jock' friends.

How do you know their brothers didn't do anything?

I'll give you that on Byron because his relationship with Dylan was poor, but Kevin and Eric had a very good relationship.

Also offtopic: Your username....ugh. I hope your bf or someone you know is named Dylan, and it is not who I am thinking of

Sorry my fault.
I asumed he didn't do much to help Eric's case. And since he was in a way a JOCK he was most likely hanging out with most of them. I'm not saying they had bad relationship, as I know Kevin was his favourite family member.

Offtopic: My nicnkame is a bit personal thing for me to tell you why it is the way it is. It's just a coincidence that one of the shooters name was Dylan, thank you very much. :Lol smile:

Well you shut me up there

Yes, this happened because both Dylan's Mom and Chad Laughlin have testified to the truth of this incident.

What I want to know what...was there 2 incidents of this? Chad only mentions Dylan, but he doesn't mention Eric. Same with Dylan's mom. But Brooks Brown parents said how the jocks around them squirted ketchup at both Dylan and Eric.

Was there 2 separate incidents?

lol wrote:

Dylan'sgirl wrote:

lol wrote:

Dylan'sgirl wrote:

lol wrote:

There aren't many reports of them ever being bullied from freshman year, besides a few times Brooks spoke of, not nearly as much as in their junior year.

Also Eric had a jock brother in his freshman year. Kevin played football for Columbine, and Byron was still at Columbine when both Dylan and Eric transferred, so they did have some "protection", more so on Eric with Kevin being a member of the football team and all. It seems things got worst with them in their junior year. This is the most reports we've received on how bad their bullying was that year. It was the same year where they started dressing differently too. Dylan started wearing a trench coat in Sep '97 after his 16th bday, while Eric started wearing a trench coat around Jan/Feb '98. They were made fun of lot because of these coats.

Yeah but their brothers didn't do anything. You said they had 'protection' but I highly doubt that. I have seen somewhere that Byron was mean to Dylan when he was around with his 'jock' friends.

How do you know their brothers didn't do anything?

I'll give you that on Byron because his relationship with Dylan was poor, but Kevin and Eric had a very good relationship.

Also offtopic: Your username....ugh. I hope your bf or someone you know is named Dylan, and it is not who I am thinking of

Sorry my fault.
I asumed he didn't do much to help Eric's case. And since he was in a way a JOCK he was most likely hanging out with most of them. I'm not saying they had bad relationship, as I know Kevin was his favourite family member.

Offtopic: My nicnkame is a bit personal thing for me to tell you why it is the way it is. It's just a coincidence that one of the shooters name was Dylan, thank you very much. :Lol smile:

Well you shut me up there

That was my intention