Ketchup incident + van break-in = NBK?

I've long seen early 1998 as the time period during which Eric and Dylan's descent into social alienation turned into a downward spiral straight to Hell.

Whatever bullying they experienced at Columbine peaked during their junior year - the year that Rocky and his buddies essentially had free reign to treat everyone else like crap. And the worst bullying of their junior year occurred in January 1998, shortly before the break-in.

I have long maintained that Columbine was a "perfect storm" - if any one of several or a dozen or even a hundred elements had not come together in the precise manner that they did, then 4/20 might not have happened. I do believe that the presence of an especially bad bully like Rocky at an especially bad time for Eric and Dylan was one of those elements. I have never gone so far as to blame "bullying," per se, for the massacre, but I do believe that it contributed to both boys' extreme sense of alienation from their ostensible peers.

We've gone back and forth on the exact details of the ketchup incident. It is undeniable that *something* really bad happened in the cafeteria, and that Dylan, at least, felt that it was the worst day of his life. He felt totally humiliated. Presumably it was just as difficult for Eric.

Also around this time, it seems that someone made some kind of false accusation that Eric and Dylan were keeping marijuana in their lockers, leading to further humiliation.

Then, at the end of the month, the boys got arrested. This was a traumatic event, especially for Dylan.

Is it a total coincidence that the boys began making journal entries containing specific plans for NBK shortly thereafter? I think not.

And here is another theory that I haven't really considered, but I think it bears mentioning: The shooting in Jonesboro, Arkansas, took place on March 24, 1998. Five people died. This crime is largely forgotten today, but it got a lot of attention at the time - the massacre happened on a Tuesday and it was the top story on the network newscasts for the rest of the week.

Is it possible that Eric and Dylan heard about this event and thought, "You know, that's not such a bad idea ... but we can do it right"?

LPorter101 wrote:

I've long seen early 1998 as the time period during which Eric and Dylan's descent into social alienation turned into a downward spiral straight to Hell.

Whatever bullying they experienced at Columbine peaked during their junior year - the year that Rocky and his buddies essentially had free reign to treat everyone else like crap. And the worst bullying of their junior year occurred in January 1998, shortly before the break-in.

I have long maintained that Columbine was a "perfect storm" - if any one of several or a dozen or even a hundred elements had not come together in the precise manner that they did, then 4/20 might not have happened. I do believe that the presence of an especially bad bully like Rocky at an especially bad time for Eric and Dylan was one of those elements. I have never gone so far as to blame "bullying," per se, for the massacre, but I do believe that it contributed to both boys' extreme sense of alienation from their ostensible peers.

We've gone back and forth on the exact details of the ketchup incident. It is undeniable that *something* really bad happened in the cafeteria, and that Dylan, at least, felt that it was the worst day of his life. He felt totally humiliated. Presumably it was just as difficult for Eric.

Also around this time, it seems that someone made some kind of false accusation that Eric and Dylan were keeping marijuana in their lockers, leading to further humiliation.

Then, at the end of the month, the boys got arrested. This was a traumatic event, especially for Dylan.

Is it a total coincidence that the boys began making journal entries containing specific plans for NBK shortly thereafter? I think not.

And here is another theory that I haven't really considered, but I think it bears mentioning: The shooting in Jonesboro, Arkansas, took place on March 24, 1998. Five people died. This crime is largely forgotten today, but it got a lot of attention at the time - the massacre happened on a Tuesday and it was the top story on the network newscasts for the rest of the week.

Is it possible that Eric and Dylan heard about this event and thought, "You know, that's not such a bad idea ... but we can do it right"?

Yeah, that is possible that Eric and Dylan heard about the shooting in Jonesboro and thought "we can do it too". I don't definitely know the source, but i think it must have been in the Basement Tapes. Eric and Dylan say that they got the idea for the Mass murder at Columbine High School before all the other school shootings, apparently referencing Jonesboro and the numerous other school shootings in the 1997-1998 school year. But Eric and Dylan might have been lying in the basement tapes just to make themselves sound more original.

You may be right or you may be wrong LPorter.
But since April 20 1999 came and went the only connection, the ONLY CONNECTION we have EVER known about connecting Eric/Dylan to Rocky Hoffschneider has been the "boo hoo hoo" line Eric wrote mocking Rocky for having his Hummer taken away or whatever it is.
There is only one thing that could possibly happen to establish a new connection, and that's if Rocky Hoffschneider somehow converts to Mormonism or becomes scared of climate change scenarios or some other hilariously terrible thing that makes him have a magical change of beautiful heart and he comes forward with evidence that he, Rocky Hoffschneider, bullied Eric and Dylan. Is he still in prison? Still MMA-ing?
I mean, hey, it could happen. And you might just stumble upon Jimmy Hoffa's earthly remains, too. The odds are small but it IS possible! Or, hey--resolve something amazing, like going to Honduras and catching Alexis Flores. I dunno man.

And in the meantime, who else is going to come forward about the Ketchup Incident? We have who--Chad Laughlin, maybe Brooks Brown and an allusion to ketchup from Sue Klebold.
And...what's that? Once again, I'll never stop saying this:
HOW COME MORE PEOPLE HAVEN'T CONFIRMED IT? WOULDN'T LOADS OF PEOPLE HAVE SEEN SUCH A THING?!?
You'd think more people would come forward about this incident, unless the only people who witnessed it were the bullies who perpetrated it, and I guess they wouldn't want to incriminate themselves after all these years.

So much of discussion about the Columbine massacre any more is just wishful speculation. I think that's why this board is so slow--we just dig up the same stuff over and over again, reaching for Gatsby's fading light and knowing the odds are slim we'll ever get it.

You make a good point about Jonesboro--that incident was very infamous at the time, scared the crap out of people. Then Columbine blew it out of the water.

By the way, everyone Google "Windy Point Jane Doe" for a photograph of a recreation of what a dead person might have looked like, that is the creepiest thing I've ever seen.

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You may be right or you may be wrong LPorter.

Yeah, at some level this is all useless speculation.

I doubt the boys themselves understood their own motives all that well.

LPorter101 wrote:

Is it a total coincidence that the boys began making journal entries containing specific plans for NBK shortly thereafter? I think not.

The major fly in the ointment here is that Eric and Dylan were talking about killing people - and tellingly it appears they developed the idea of it independently of each other - as early as 1997. We can debate the seriousness or lack of it in their writings during this period of time but the seeds were planted far earlier and were beginning to sprout way before the stressors started pilling up. Chalk it up to cynicism from seeing so many other rampage killers and terrorists walk down the same path with less prompting but it seems to me that you could subtract an element or two from the equation and still end up in the same situation and we'd be having this same conversation.

LPorter101 wrote:

And here is another theory that I haven't really considered, but I think it bears mentioning: The shooting in Jonesboro, Arkansas, took place on March 24, 1998. Five people died. This crime is largely forgotten today, but it got a lot of attention at the time - the massacre happened on a Tuesday and it was the top story on the network newscasts for the rest of the week.

Is it possible that Eric and Dylan heard about this event and thought, "You know, that's not such a bad idea ... but we can do it right"?

Plausible. Eric did brag on the Basement Tapes "we aren't like those fucks in Kentucky with 22's" (presumably misidentifying the state). There's also the fact that part of Eric and Dylan's plan was to gun people down as they were fleeing the building, which is at least somewhat similar to Mitchell and Drew's attack, where they shot people walking out after they pulled the fire alarm. Also it's funny to think that despite being older and theoretically more mature Eric and Dylan's plan was partially copied from two middle school kids.

Lunkhead McGrath wrote:

HOW COME MORE PEOPLE HAVEN'T CONFIRMED IT?  WOULDN'T LOADS OF PEOPLE HAVE SEEN SUCH A THING?!?  
You'd think more people would come forward about this incident, unless the only people who witnessed it were the bullies who perpetrated it, and I guess they wouldn't want to incriminate themselves after all these years.

Would admitting to being a bystander who did nothing while watching someone get victimized really meet any less social condemnation than being an active participant?

Quote :

The major fly in the ointment here is that Eric and Dylan were talking about killing people - and tellingly it appears they developed the idea of it independently of each other - as early as 1997. We can debate the seriousness or lack of it in their writings during this period of time but the seeds were planted far earlier and were beginning to sprout way before the stressors started pilling up. Chalk it up to cynicism from seeing so many other rampage killers and terrorists walk down the same path with less prompting but it seems to me that you could subtract an element or two from the equation and still end up in the same situation and we'd be having this same conversation.

This is a good point. But, if we use the seed analogy, the seeds may have been planted before '98, but the ketchup incident and the van break-in were like a huge dose of Miracle-Gro.

QuestionMark wrote:

Would admitting to being a bystander who did nothing while watching someone get victimized really meet any less social condemnation than being an active participant?

I guess not that much, but who (besides us) cares anymore? What, are there going to be Youtubers going "hey fuck you bro you're to blame for this sh!t I knew it lolz!!!"
What about the janitors who would have had to clean up a big ketchup fight, or the principal DeAngelis who they'd have had to report it to? (Okay, that last one's a stretch given what we know about DeAngelis.)
Any of E & D's friends that they would have talked to this about? I doubt they'd have gone to their journals--it's just conjecture, but I don't think teenage boys are big on confessing when they got pounded in their journals and how weepy they really feel about it, which they probably did.

Are you people sure you're not just confusing Columbine with Carrie? Plug it up, plug it up!!!

Also, doesn't some of this just reek for people desperate to blame Rocky H for the whole thing? I get that he's unapologetic and probably a sociopath (or at least his response to the pathetic Mark Ames article confirms it--don't make LPorter repost *that* bit of horse puckey again) but aren't you people conflating Rocky with whoever pounded on you in high school, not that you don't have my sympathy?