Eat this, Dave Cullen

From the RMN article I found:

They are so calm about it all. It's just matter-of-fact: ``You guys all will die, and it will be soon,'' Eric Harris says, no emotion in his voice. Yet their pain drips from them.

They recall how it's always been: the geeks who always got picked on. You name the grade. How girls would never call them back. Even as a senior, a punk freshman "ripped," or picked on him, Dylan Klebold recalled. The freshman didn't get in trouble; he did. It would never stop. Unless he made it stop.

"Only four or five people here didn't rip on me - four or five out of the whole state of Colorado!" Eric Harris moaned to his pal. If he were just able to get in small fistfights, like he used to, Harris says. Now, he'd get suspended, his parents sued. Now, he says, pointing his shotgun ``Arlene'' at the screen, he has no choice.

...

Eat that quote and choke on it, Dave. Tell us again how Eric was this ultra-confident swaggering ladies' man who never took shit from anyone. Tell us that bullying had nothing to do with the massacre. See if you can say that with a straight face.

That guy is so obviously incorrect about major issues in this case, I don't see how he doesn't recognize this and revise his book or something. It's just a shame his book is taken as gospel on the subject by those who will then only read that book and nothing else, thinking they have a good handle on the facts. Maybe that will change someday.

LPorter101 wrote:

Eat that quote and choke on it, Dave. Tell us again how Eric was this ultra-confident swaggering ladies' man who never took shit from anyone. Tell us that bullying had nothing to do with the massacre. See if you can say that with a straight face.

Good post, I have always believed, that, whether the boys had girlfriends or not, Columbine would simply not have happened if the bullying culture that seemed endemic at CHS, and ignored by Frank DeAngelis, had not been so ingrained into the high school milieu. While I feel Dylan still would have committed suicide at some point (I have argued that he likely would have done it while away at college probably), I really do not think the massacre as it played out would have happened if Eric had not be so relentlessly bullied. I always think back to the video project where you can see Eric visibly cowering when some jocks walked by him and his friends...

Is there a thread or document around debunking Cullens claims or theories? I was considering making a website if not. If there is could someone be kind enough to link me?

ThoughtBox wrote:

LPorter101 wrote:

Eat that quote and choke on it, Dave. Tell us again how Eric was this ultra-confident swaggering ladies' man who never took shit from anyone. Tell us that bullying had nothing to do with the massacre. See if you can say that with a straight face.

Good post, I have always believed, that, whether the boys had girlfriends or not, Columbine would simply not have happened if the bullying culture that seemed endemic at CHS, and ignored by Frank DeAngelis, had not been so ingrained into the high school milieu. While I feel Dylan still would have committed suicide at some point (I have argued that he likely would have done it while away at college probably), I really do not think the massacre as it played out would have happened if Eric had not be so relentlessly bullied. I always think back to the video project where you can see Eric visibly cowering when some jocks walked by him and his friends...

I'm not so sure the massacre would have been avoided. I think they key event (other than the shooters personalities taht were already formed by that time) was the arest over the van brake-in. This would likely still have happened even if CHS was a school with little to none bullying (like my own HS was).

So E&D would have still bonded over the arresta nd its fallout, diversion etc. Dylan would be still the Dylan we know. Eric would perhaps be a bit different, but he would still be the impulsive, angry guy with narcissistic tendencies. He still would be a pyromaniac and still have a big grudge against society turning people into robots.


Maybe I'm a minority here, but I think given the above, a spree killing would still happen. Question is - would it still happen at CHS? Perhaps it would have ended up as something like a mall shooting? Or at attack on the sheriff's office?

My point - bullying was probably one of the big reasons that made CHS the intended target. But was it the main reason why a spree killing was planned in the first place? "Ich denke NEIN".

WhereHateRunsRed wrote:

Is there a thread or document around debunking Cullens claims or theories? I was considering making a website if not. If there is could someone be kind enough to link me?

Of all the things I've done and said on the SCMRPG board and its successors, the most notable, by far, has been my ongoing "crusade" against Cullen. For the past six years, I've been engaged in a "feud" with him.

Of course, the word "feud" implies some level of equality between the participants, and Cullen and I are not equals. He is a published, widely-read author who basks in the glow of near-universal praise and admiration; I'm a lowly "commenter" (or ex-moderator, if you're feeling generous) on an obscure discussion board. At one point, he was a semi-regular on CNN, renowned for his authoritative, penetrating insight into the mysterious psychology of the school shooter. My first and only job in television was reading the morning announcements in middle school, and I got that job through pure favoritism - I was the matronly librarian's fair-haired boy.

As one of Cullen's emissaries told me, "Do you think he'd waste his time dealing with the likes of you?" I don't think so - he has far more important things to do. I am not worthy of the honor of communicating directly with one of the greatest men of our time.

But, as popular as he is in the world at large, to some of us who've devoted considerable chunks of our lives to studying Columbine, Cullen is a literary piñata - always good for a whacking, the harder the better. To the extent that SCMRPG, SBB, and the current CHSMDF have served as pillars of the Columbine research community, and to the extent that I have contributed to the pervasive anti-Cullen sentiment and the general anti-Cullen consensus that has prevailed on those boards, I am partly if not primarily responsible for his low standing. And I hit way below the belt.

Cullen, through the aforementioned emissary, has expressed the view that I am a contemptible maggot, a homophobic bully, and the lowest form of scum. I would be lying if I said that I held him in higher regard than he holds me.

I can't justify all, or maybe even most, of the things I've said about him - at times, I've been exceedingly nasty. I've crossed the line into making ad hominem attacks.

One time, I made a post on the board about an article he wrote a few days after the massacre.

Keep in mind that Cullen is gay.

(Full disclosure: I've spent a good portion of my life wondering whether or not I'm totally straight. I've come to the conclusion that I'm not. But every time I've had an opportunity to do something with another guy - and, despite looking at times like a model for the "Before" category in several types of makeover ads, I've had several such opportunities, including the time that I ended up alone with a married man in a dark supply closet - my first and foremost impulse has been to run away, fast and far.)

In the article, he described an interviewee, one of the infamous Columbine jocks*, as a "strapping 6'2" rugby player." I took that line and used it to riff on his supposed perving: "Oh, my, look at all those strapping rugby players strutting so confidently through the gleaming hallways! I hope that 6'2" one grabs me and shoves me into a locker - I love S&M! I'm itchin' for a wedgie!"

(*Yes, the bullying angle was vastly overblown, but I don't discount it completely. I believe that both boys were taunted and bullied - Eric more than Dylan - and that it contributed to their sense of alienation.)

There was no excuse for my saying something like that, and eventually I found out that he was deeply offended by it. I reached out to him. He told me that, by jokingly suggesting that a grown man might lust after jocks, I was implicitly accusing all gay men of being pedophiles. (S6'2"RP was 18 - I looked it up - but I saw his point.) I apologized. He accepted the apology. (And he did confirm that, yes, S6'2"RP was his type of guy, if a little young.) He promised to post on the board. But he never did, and before long I was back to posting nasty stuff about him.

Indeed, one of the first things I wrote was, "You know, Cullen hasn't lived up to his promise to post on the board ... does anyone have any pictures of strapping 6'2" rugby players, and/or Abercrombie & Fitch models? We can use them as bait."

The A&F reference was not out of the blue - this was in December, and Cullen had posted a large picture of a shirtless muscular A&F model on his blog. He wrote a "witty" caption - something like, "If you're looking to buy me a last-minute Christmas present, anything - or anyone - from A&F will do."

Around the same time, he tweeted, "Columbine for Christmas!" and a link to the book's Amazon.com page.

A few years later, when Amazon did a Hachette job on his publisher, he started tweeting the hashtag [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]. In response, I wrote on the board something like, "Columbiners of the world, unite! Join Amazon Prime! Buy a Kindle Fire! Stand tall and proud in solidarity with our Amazonian brethren against the Cullenista hordes!"

The Christmas tweet became yet another in-joke on the board - almost a year later, we were still cracking (lame) jokes like "Christ, fucking Cullenbine for Christmas?!? Cripes, I'd rather be crucified! Come on, Cullen!"

Or: "When Timmy looked in his stocking on Christmas morning, he said, "Mommy, why did Santa bring me a sack of reindeer shit?"

And his mother said, "Because you did make your bed one of the times that I asked you. If you'd been any more disobedient, Santa would have brought you Cullenbine."

"Wow," Timmy said. "I dodged a bullet there."

(This was before Sandy Hook - in December 2012 and for a long time thereafter, talking about a little kid "dodging a bullet" wouldn't have seemed funny.)

So, yes, I have written many highly-inappropriate and uncalled-for things about Dave Cullen. I can't defend those comments, at least not in good faith. They are as big an embarrassment to me, and maybe an indictment of me, as anything anyone has said on the boards.

...

But I stand by my assertion that large parts of Cullen's magnum opus, including his characterizations of Eric as a swaggering ladies' man who "got lots and lots of chicks" and Dylan as a cowering emo who lived in fear of Eric, are pure, unadulterated bullshit. And while I can't defend my nastiness, I can explain it as the natural reaction to the arrogance of someone who asserts that everyone who spoke before him got everything totally wrong.

He doesn't say, "My book tells you why Eric and Dylan tried to kill so many people"; he says, "I alone have all the answers. My book is so superior to all similar works that it invalidates everything that came before it. Mine is not merely the best book about Columbine, but the only one worth reading. Everything I say is true; my masterpiece is entirely free of error. Where others disagree, I am right and they are wrong."

Even when Cullen is called on his BS - in his book he treats as gospel the lies of a girl named Brenda Parker, who claimed to have had sex with Eric but was exposed as a fraud - he steadfastly refuses even to acknowledge his mistakes, let alone to correct them. He ignores or condemns anyone who neglects to shower him with abject praise. (But he does make a point of leaving a comment on each and every blog entry where he is praised - he must read everything that is written about him.)

Most of the "myths" that he claims exclusively to have debunked were already discredited to some extent in the months after the massacre. True, no one before him sat down and wrote an article saying, "Widespread Columbine Beliefs A, B, C, D, E, and so on are wrong or at least questionable" ... but it's not as if Cullen was the first one to say, for example, that bullying wasn't quite the proximate cause of the massacre that the media initially made it out to be. After all, if Eric and Dylan had wanted to kill a bunch of strapping 6'2" rugby players, they would have gone to the locker room, not the library.

So I apologize for my methods, but not for my intentions. I truly believe that Dave Cullen has done great violence to the public's understanding of Columbine. It's as if someone arrogantly maintained that Adam Lanza wasn't really a recluse because he had a best friend with whom he occasionally went to the mall. Such a statement would be about as far from the truth as Cullen's assertion that Eric Harris was one of the more popular kids at Columbine. Harris languished near the bottom of the totem pole - above the "untouchables," such as the 300-pound acne-ridden geeks and the Down's-syndrome kids, but below almost all of the other seniors in the social hierarchy. He deeply resented his lack of status. "Wounded narcissist" or not, he felt that the other kids neither respected him nor validated his worth.

And he felt the stings of constant rejection. He was not so ugly and weird that he could not get a girl to look at him, but he never could establish a meaningful relationship with any female. (Yes, he did feel entitled to female affection. Both boys did.) It must have galled Eric that a boy as ugly as Dylan had a friend - Robyn Anderson - who practically begged him to go to the prom with her. (Harris begged several girls for a date; all turned him down. He sarcastically "thanked" them on the basement tapes - "That made me feel real good, bitches.") Even Brooks Brown, who like Dylan maintained a notoriously low level of personal hygiene, had a girlfriend for a while. (They broke up before the prom.)

Eric's height probably had something to do with it. Klebold was 6'3" and Brown is 6'5; Harris was 5'8", and a scrawny, shrunken-chested 5'8" at that. (Dylan was even skinnier for his height, especially at the end, but he looked so much more imposing. In all of the videos the two boys made together, Dylan towers over his friend.) Most of his male friends and acquaintances were well over six feet tall. Among the outcasts, he was the runt.

And his relative standing at home was no better. Both his father (the stern, distant Air Force officer) and his brother (the handsome, confident football player and straight-A student with an attractive girlfriend) were far more impressive exemplars of masculine strength than he could ever hope to be.

Cullen completely dismisses as "hyperbole" or "pretending" some of the things that Eric wrote about himself in his journal. He once accused me of "cherry-picking irrelevant quotes" - quotes such as these:

"Everyone is always making fun of me because of how I look, how fucking weak I am and shit, well I will get you all back: ultimate fucking revenge here. you people could have shown more respect, treated me better, asked for knowledge or guidence more, treated me more like senior and maybe I wouldn't have been as ready to tear your fucking heads off. Then again, I have always hated how I looked, I make fun of people who look like me, sometimes without even thinking sometimes just because I want to rip on myself. Thats where a lot of my hate grows from. The fact that I have practically no selfesteem, especially concerning girls and looks and such. therefore people make fun of me .. constantly..therefore I get no respect and therefore I get fucking PISSED...."

"I hate you people for leaving me out of so many fun things. And no don't fucking say, "well thats your fault" because it isnt, you people had my phone #, and I asked and all, but no. no no dont let the weird looking Eric KID come along, ohh fucking nooo."

As Westword reporter Alan Prendergast wrote, "That is how the journal ends - not with the howl of the wolf-god, but the whine of the pathetic geek who can't land a prom date. And decides everybody deserves to die."

So suffice it to say that I don't buy Cullen's assertion that Eric was the ultra-confident Übermensch of Columbine. And I believe that Dylan was far more disturbed than Cullen cares to admit. Eric's writings are supremely angry - there are parts where his rage boils over into descriptions of brutal cannibalistic sex fantasies. But some of Dylan's writings are so disjointed and bizarre that I am inclined to agree with Peter Langman's view that he was possibly borderline schizophrenic.

These days, he probably reserves most of his ire for the Tumblr fangirls.

The "fangirl" phenomenon is an intriguing sociological phenomenon in its own right. Some of them so far as to harass him on Twitter. I haven't attempted to speak to him directly in years.

Someone recently contacted him to tell him that his public Favorites list included links to gay-porn sites:
"I EMAILED DAVE CULLEN ABOUT HIS GAY PORN ON TWITTER AND HE REPLIED"

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His response is telling:
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"I can block those dirtbags ... I'm always surprised how homophobic these kids are..."

Some of the Tumblr types are pretty nasty - even nastier than I am - so the fact that he would refer to them as "dirtbags" is not all that surprising.

And there are some people who say nasty stuff about his being gay. But I've always seen the comments as mocking his horniness more than his gayness. He's always talking about one "hot guy" or another.

If Cullen were straight and continually posted stuff about big-breasted porn stars, or if he had written "nubile 5'8" cheerleader" instead of "strapping 6'2" rugby player", I might say something like, "Not bad, Dave - you've got good taste. Just keep on fapping. I, personally, can't wait for you to go blind. Oh, wait - you're already blind ... to the truth. You can't see the facts that are lying right under your nose. So it probably wouldn't matter either way."

And one time he responded to someone who criticized him on Twitter with, "My, your 13 subscribers must be hanging on your every hateful word."

(See, he's implicitly saying, "I have thousands of subscribers who hang on my every word. Therefore I am better than you.")

And he keeps throwing that word around - hate. He thinks the people who say these things hate him.

(Some of them do. I don't know if I do - hate is a strong word - but I certainly don't like him.)

But to him, anyone who doesn't like him is driven solely by "hate" in and of itself. In his mind, he probably thinks, "Oh, they're just jealous of my fabulous life. It's the tall-poppy syndrome with a homophobic twist."

The guy's got a monstrous ego.

I don't know if he still does so, but for a while he posted on even the most obscure blogs - so long as the blogger liked his book.

...

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Hi, thanks for the thoughtful review of my book, Avid. I think you captured it nicely.

And special thanks for calling me "a young reporter." I turn 50 this month and my family informed me they are planning a big party for me to celebrate, and it has me a bit unnerved, truthfully. (I felt great about 30, and OK with 40, but 50 is the first one I feel yucky about.) So that actually made my day.

And for any teacher--or students out there--we’ve had a lot of interest on using the book in school, so we’re trying to make that easier. I spent a good chunk of the fall creating the Columbine Instructor Guide and Columbine Student Guide. They are now online and free. Please consider spreading the word. Thanks.

January 7, 2011 at 11:42 AM

...

At the end, he mentions something that really bugs me - lots of teachers force their kids to read his book. They make it required reading. They teach it as the incontrovertible truth about the massacre. And few if any of them encourage their kids to read any other works, or to expose themselves to differing points of view. So our tax dollars go toward indoctrinating kids to accept without question Cullen's version of events.

And here his narcissism shines through - it's one thing to say, "Thanks for calling me 'young'"; it's another to go on about the way that he does. Why should we care how old he is, or how big a party he's going to have, or how he feels about it? I mean, if he wants to talk about that on his blog, that's fine, but why does he have to insert it into what is really a simple thank-you note?

(Yes, he's a writer, but he always seems to be talking about himself.)

Of course, he does those of us who enjoy mocking him a favor - he's relatively open about his insecurities. That makes it much that easier for us to say things that we know will piss him off. I've never knocked his age, or even his gayness all that much, but I do find him oversensitive.

His pushing the book on kids, more than anything else he's said or done, bothers me. You don't see Jeff Kass going around peddling A True Crime Story as some kind of textbook. Even works that take an explicitly academic approach - such as Comprehending Columbine, which is far better when the author talks about the school than about the two shooters - are not actively marketed as something that every kid in America needs to read.

He spends a lot of time going to schools, addressing the kids as if he's some kind of authority. I know that if I were a kid (or a parent, for that matter), I'd have some pointed questions for him. But kids are never encouraged to challenge guest speakers - they are supposed to sit there and listen uncritically. I wonder about the kids who've gotten in trouble for asking, "Mr. Cullen, how do we know you're not completely full of shit?"

...

Yes, some of his prose is clever, and there are some bright spots in the book. I particularly like his description of the killers' deaths. And he does bring the victims to life - I really felt for Patrick Ireland after reading Cullen's description of his struggles. The man does have some talent.

But it's all ruined by his arrogance.

There are some gay authors who can pull off depictions of straight relationships, and vice versa, but Cullen is not one of them. The stuff about Eric's scoring "chicks" doesn't ring true at all. It would be laughable if so many people didn't take it seriously. And the fact that it is at the very front of the book magnifies its impact. "Eric was a swaggering, pussy-pounding ladies' man" is the main point that Cullen wants people to take away from his book, and that is the main point that they do take away.

And that is the main problem. There are so many people who read the book and parrot this line - "Eric Harris was not an outcast, but a fairly popular kid who got laid" - as if it were gospel. You see them everywhere.

The comments section of any given Columbine-related YouTube video will include expressions of the following viewpoints:

a) Eric and Dylan were bullied mercilessly.
b) a) is wrong - Eric wasn't bullied, but was a swaggering ladies' man.
c) b) is wrong - Cullen's depiction of Eric is a complete and total lie.

The larger point that I always try to make is that Eric felt alienated from nearly everyone around him - yes, I think he was bullied, but the bullying was significant mainly because it contributed to Eric's sense of being demeaned and disrespected. Not being able to get a girlfriend and being excluded from the "social whirl" was what hurt Eric the most.

Someone told me, "Yes, the book is deeply flawed, but it has its good points. Cullen lets the killers speak for themselves."

Well, maybe. (He only includes those direct quotations from the killers' journals that support his hypothesis.)

But he attributes thoughts to them that only someone like "Kathy the Crazy Lady" (the alleged psychic I talked about in another thread) could know.

He keeps talking about how Dylan was thinking, "I don't want to do this," when he was in the school. How does he know that Dylan was thinking along those lines? Dylan never said, "I don't want to do this," when he was in the school, now, did he?

So how would Cullen know that? Did he read Dylan's mind? Did he hire a medium to ask Dylan what he was thinking when he was running around the school killing people?

This is the kind of stuff that gets posted on Tumblr:


"” I spent ten years on scratching my ass. I was driven by two questions: how can I make more money, and will senpai Brooks ever notice me? “

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This guy is worse then the columbiners.  - Brooks Brown
The new top seller since ‘Columbine’- Not Dave Cullen
Such a talented man - Cullen’s Mother
Dave Cullen, once again bringing you nothing but the facts! This guy is truly the William Shakespeare of our time - Said no one ever

Dude never stop you are the actual gr8est"

There was another one where someone took pictures of Cullen, Brooks Brown, and James Holmes and mashed them together into a gay-threesome slash fic ... I can't find it now.

Cullen is right here and Eric is a liar. The evidence proves it.

Eric and Dylan did not target bullies in the shooting. In the 11K, 17 people, including Robyn Anderson, say they never saw Eric or Dylan harassed. 20 or so say they saw them picked on for their clothes, while others mention that the harassment was "mild" (only one says it was "relentless").

By contrast, 28 people, including Chris Morris (8897) and Devon Adams (10616), say that Harris and Klebold bullied others. Chris Morris said they started fights with others, and Seth Biggi and Gary Reininger said that they started fights with jocks.

Eric and Dylan were self-admitted bullies, and a lot of the teasing and bullying they received may have been in retaliation for what they were dishing out.

lasttrain wrote:

Cullen is right here and Eric is a liar.  The evidence proves it.

Eric and Dylan did not target bullies in the shooting. In the 11K, 17 people, including Robyn Anderson, say they never saw Eric or Dylan harassed. 20 or so say they saw them picked on for their clothes, while others mention that the harassment was "mild" (only one says it was "relentless").

By contrast, 28 people, including Chris Morris (8897) and Devon Adams (10616), say that Harris and Klebold bullied others. Chris Morris said they started fights with others, and Seth Biggi and Gary Reininger said that they started fights with jocks.

Eric and Dylan were self-admitted bullies, and a lot of the teasing and bullying they received may have been in retaliation for what they were dishing out.

I have never said that Eric and Dylan targeted bullies.

Like I've said, I think the greater issue is social alienation. Whatever bullying they did or did not receive contributed to that alienation.

What about the incident documented in the 11 k report where Eric was thrown into lockers and hit repeatedly in the face with a volleyball in the gym in Fall of 98?
Sure, it can't justify what he did but I wouldn't call it mild either. Neither is the tampon Ketchup incident mild in my eyes.

Quote :

Eric and Dylan were self-admitted bullies, and a lot of the teasing and bullying they received may have been in retaliation for what they were dishing out.

Perhaps they bullied others in retaliation for the bullying THEY experienced. That's just as possible as your theory.

Or how about the fact that a lot of guys admitted to bullying and teasing Eric Harris...especially the jocks who were the class of '98?

How about the fact that Eric rightfully says that he was bullied and people always made fun of how he looked, how he dressed? How about the fact that there are more witnesses stating that some guy made fun of Eric's music of liking Rammstein, and everytime Eric walked by him he made fun of him? And Eric told him, "What the hell did I ever do to you? Why do you always make fun of the music I listen to?"

Or how about the fact that the Ketchup Incident DID happen and Dylan was thrown a ketchup covered tampon? Or how about the fact that on the DAY OF THE MASSACRE Bree P even said Eric Harris was pointing a gun at her...laughing, and asking if she wanted to die and "He said 'It was all because people were mean to him last year'

Dylan: "This is for all the shit you've given us for the past 4 years!"

Or how about on the Basement Tapes Eric and Dylan discuss their friends who did nothing to help them when they were bullied, or they could've done more

Or Brooks incident speaking when jocks threw glass in front of Eric and Dylan
Dylan: Don't worry man, it happens all the time

Once again, Cullen is a moron.

I'm bored, so I might as well take a few whacks at the literary piñata called Cullenbine:

Dates were not generally a problem.... [Eric] got chicks. Lots and lots of chicks.

"You know who you are. Thanks. You made me feel good. Think about that for a while, fucking bitches." - Harris, after listing five girls "who never even called me back."

On the ultimate high-school scorecard, Eric outscored much of the football team.

why the fuck cant I get any? I mean, I'm nice and considerate and all that shit, but nooooo. I think I try to hard.

Eric looked striking head-on: prominent cheekbones, hollowed out underneath--all his features proportionate, clean-cut, and all-American. The profile presented a bit of a problem, however; his long, pointy nose exaggerated a sloping forehead and a weak chin.[/b]

I have always hated how I looked, I make fun of people who look like me, sometimes without even thinking sometimes just because I want to rip on myself. Thats where a lot of my hate grows from, the fact that I have practically no selfesteem, especially concerning girls and looks and such. therefore people make fun of me... constantly... therefore I get no respect and therefore I get fucking PISSED.

It is telling that, after all of these years, Cullen has yet to say anything to us - anything at all.

If I were in Cullen's shoes, I would relish the opportunity to tear that LPorter101 prick a new asshole.

When it comes down to it, Cullen is a weak pussy. Maybe he thinks he's staying "above the fray," but the bottom line is that he's too much of a fucking coward to address his critics head-on.

Dave, I was against you yesterday, I'm against you today, and I'll be against you tomorrow. Any time you want to take me on, you know where to find me.

LPorter101 wrote:

I'm bored, so I might as well take a few whacks at the literary piñata called Cullenbine:

Dates were not generally a problem.... [Eric] got chicks. Lots and lots of chicks.

"You know who you are. Thanks. You made me feel good. Think about that for a while, fucking bitches." - Harris, after listing five girls "who never even called me back."

On the ultimate high-school scorecard, Eric outscored much of the football team.

why the fuck cant I get any? I mean, I'm nice and considerate and all that shit, but nooooo. I think I try to hard.

Eric looked striking head-on: prominent cheekbones, hollowed out underneath--all his features proportionate, clean-cut, and all-American. The profile presented a bit of a problem, however; his long, pointy nose exaggerated a sloping forehead and a weak chin.[/b]

I have always hated how I looked, I make fun of people who look like me, sometimes without even thinking sometimes just because I want to rip on myself. Thats where a lot of my hate grows from, the fact that I have practically no selfesteem, especially concerning girls and looks and such. therefore people make fun of me... constantly... therefore I get no respect and therefore I get fucking PISSED.

LPorter, the JCSO interviews demolish your argument and prove that Cullen is right

Alisa Owen asked Eric to a class dance in 8th or 9th grade (3983)

Freshman year he went to prom with Tiffany Typher, and later faked a suicide to scare her.

Valerie Lage dated Eric in 1996 (19017).

Dated Sasha Jacobs from 1997-1998 (960), but began stalking and harassing her until she had to change her screen name.

[Blacked out] met Eric at soccer game; went out three times in summer of 1998 (10,277–

[Blacked out] dated EH about 3 times; hasn’t seen him since summer of ’98 (18,523)

[Blacked out] EH called often for date; met once at Chili’s (22,353)

Katie Thompson went out with Eric in 1999 (p. 1221) until her mother put a stop to it.

Stephanie True says he is “hot” (8848)

Jennifer Sweet said she dated EH for three weeks (22,258)

Jen Laufenberg worked with Eric at Tortilla Wraps and hung out with him a lot outside of work, but did not date him because he was a coworker.

Brandi Tinklenberg he did not date but they friends and she was receptive to him

Kristi Epling had a crush on him, which was the basis of tension between himself and Nate Dykeman.

Susan Dewitt accompanied Eric to prom and wrote a letter to him after he died.

Marla Foust and Katie Thompson wrote fond essays about him after they died (1575)

Eric took Jessica Guertz, Katie Thompson, and Veronica Griffith to lunch two weeks before attack (3131)

I just destroyed your argument and proved Cullen with real evidence from the 11K.

All you have is evidence from the admitted liar Eric Harris.

lasttrain wrote:

I just destroyed your argument and proved Cullen with real evidence from the 11K.

All you have is evidence from the admitted liar Eric Harris.  

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Does Cullen pay you by the word, or by the post, or what?

I wouldn't call Eric talking to a handful of girls here and there and maybe going on 4 or 5 dates throughout his 4 years of high school being successful with girls. So that's on average, what? 1-2 dates a year? And none of these girls were that serious about Eric and as far as I can see not a single one of them wanted any kind of real, long term relationship with Eric. If anything, he got turned down more than he got dates. And just because a guy speaks to a girl a few times at work does not mean she has any kind of interest in him. If a casual conversations means you 'get lots of chicks' then every man on the planet would be getting lots of chicks. I mean this is just common sense.

lol wrote:

Or how about the fact that a lot of guys admitted to bullying and teasing Eric Harris...especially the jocks who were the class of '98?

True, but I think that's not news. I think being a CHS student and NOT beign picked at some point by the 1998 "steroid poster buys" at some point would actuall make you quite a unique individual.

There were zounds of CHS students who complaiend about the class of 1998 jocks or admitted to being bullied, harassed or verbally abused by them. There's a reason why Rocky H had literla legends going around about himself.

lol wrote:

How about the fact that Eric rightfully says that he was bullied and people always made fun of how he looked, how he dressed?

Eric never says anywhere he was bullied. He probably was bullied, but he doesn't spend any time writing about it.

lol wrote:

Or how about on the Basement Tapes Eric and Dylan discuss their friends who did nothing to help them when they were bullied, or they could've done more

I haven't heard anything about that, is there a source for this? The basement tapes are gone so we can speculate all we want abotu what migth ahve been said. I'm generaly skeptical of what people said about the basement tapes, because the witnesses who seen them contradict one another and nobody recorded much of it save for the otherwise irrelevant "Rachel, Nick and Jen" rant.

lol wrote:

Or Brooks incident speaking when jocks threw glass in front of Eric and Dylan
Dylan: Don't worry man, it happens all the time

That one is true. There were more CHS students, not affiliated with E&D, TCM or even CHS punks who reported people drving by and throwing bottles or food at them. IIRC a guy described by Larkin as a preppie goes on about this in some interview.

Again, seems CHS was a piss poor HS, where people pushed one anotehr around and bullyign was all around the place. I still don't see any evidence that bullying was in any way a core issue for E&D - they don't write about it. Eric doesn't emntion jocks betaing him up, he mentions his own circle of friends not givign him enough respect. He afaik never vandalized the home of Rocky Hoffschneider, but he did vandalize the house of Baumgart, who was a nerd in his own circle of friends.

If anything, it seems E&D paid less attention to bullying than many CHS students interviewd by Larkin.

I think that's a big reason why people see the shooting and bullyign as so strongly related. Former CHS students for whom bullyign wa steh worst thing about CHS tend to assume E&D probably thought and acted the same way. but the writings of E&D simply do not corroborate that. Eric and Dylan relally were different from most other CHS students.[/b][/b]

Sabratha wrote:

lol wrote:

Or how about the fact that a lot of guys admitted to bullying and teasing Eric Harris...especially the jocks who were the class of '98?

True, but I think that's not news. I think being a CHS student and NOT beign picked at some point by the 1998 "steroid poster buys" at some point would actuall make you quite a unique individual.

There were zounds of CHS students who complaiend about the class of 1998 jocks or admitted to being bullied, harassed or verbally abused by them. There's a reason why Rocky H had literla legends going around about himself.

lol wrote:

How about the fact that Eric rightfully says that he was bullied and people always made fun of how he looked, how he dressed?

Eric never says anywhere he was bullied. He probably was bullied, but he doesn't spend any time writing about it.

lol wrote:

Or how about on the Basement Tapes Eric and Dylan discuss their friends who did nothing to help them when they were bullied, or they could've done more

I haven't heard anything about that, is there a source for this? The basement tapes are gone so we can speculate all we want abotu what migth ahve been said. I'm generaly skeptical of what people said about the basement tapes, because the witnesses who seen them contradict one another and nobody recorded much of it save for the otherwise irrelevant "Rachel, Nick and Jen" rant.

lol wrote:

Or Brooks incident speaking when jocks threw glass in front of Eric and Dylan
Dylan: Don't worry man, it happens all the time

That one is true. There were more CHS students, not affiliated with E&D, TCM or even CHS punks who reported people drving by and throwing bottles or food at them. IIRC a guy described by Larkin as a preppie goes on about this in some interview.

Again, seems CHS was a piss poor HS, where people pushed one anotehr around and bullyign was all around the place. I still don't see any evidence that bullying was in any way a core issue for E&D - they don't write about it. Eric doesn't emntion jocks betaing him up, he mentions his own circle of friends not givign him enough respect. He afaik never vandalized the home of Rocky Hoffschneider, but he did vandalize the house of Baumgart, who was a nerd in his own circle of friends.

If anything, it seems E&D paid less attention to bullying than many CHS students interviewd by Larkin.

I think that's a big reason why people see the shooting and bullyign as so strongly related. Former CHS students for whom bullyign wa steh worst thing about CHS tend to assume E&D probably thought and acted the same way. but the writings of E&D simply do not corroborate that. Eric and Dylan relally were different from most other CHS students.[/b][/b]

Yes, there is a source.
"Eric: (in reference to the Oregon and Kentucky shootings) "Do not think we're trying to copy anyone. We had the idea before the first one ever happened. Our plan is better, not like those fucks in Kentucky with camouflage and .22s. Those kids were only trying to be accepted by others."

They go on to talk about how they hate all races: "niggers, spics, Jews*, fucking whites". They also mention enemies that abused them and friends who didn't do enough to defend them" via Basement Tapes.

Eric via journal:
"Everyone is always making fun of me because of how I look, how fucking weak I am and shit, well I will get you all back, ultimate fucking revenge here. You people could have shown more respect, treated me better, asked for my knowledge or guidance more, treated me more like a senior, and maybe I wouldn’t have been so ready to tear your fucking heads off. Then again, I have always hated how I looked, I make fun of people who look like me, sometimes without even thinking sometimes just because I want to rip on myself. That’s where a lot of my hate grows from. The fact that I have practically no self-esteem, especially concerning girls and looks and such. Therefore people make fun of me … constantly … therefore I get no respect and therefore I get fucking PISSED

Eric via Basement Tapes:
"Eric then complains about his father and how his family had to move five times. He says he always had to be the new kid in school, and was always at the bottom of the "food chain", and had no chance to earn any respect from his peers as he always had to "start out at the bottom of the ladder". He hated the way people made fun of him: "my face, my hair, my shirts." He's wearing a t-shirt that has the words "Wilder Wein" printed on it -- he references the shirt several times during the video but never explains what it means

I have no idea where people are getting that Eric never mentions he was bullied. He clearly was. Actually, they both were bullied. May I remind you a few more incidents?

Eric getting tossed around in the locker room, Devon getting shoved into a locker after talking to Dylan: "Why are you talking to that faggot? You a dyke?", The "Ketchup Incident" where Dylan and Eric were humiliated in the cafeteria by having ketchup all over them, and one jock throwing a tampon covered ketchup at Dylan? How about when we had a poster named Jason who worked with EH and DK at BlackJack Pizza, and his statements seemed legitimate? He spoke on how Dylan and Eric ran from "faggot jocks", and they complained about "faggot jocks messing with them and chasing them"

You're just assuming the kids in the locker room at the gym who made fun of Eric were actually the "steroid poster boys", but there is no evidence from that. The simple fact Is these kids were bullied, and to think otherwise is pure nonsense! Lasttrain is a Cullen fan, and I just "destroyed" his/her argument on Eric not being bullied. Oh, and just because he asked girls out doesn't mean he actually got them. Lasttrain, don't you think there's a reason why so many girls in the 11K report called him, "Weird"? And he only had one date with them because they found out he was weird? Hilarious how you don't mention that.

Eric and Dylan were bullied in CHS. That much is easily given.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], I sincerely appreciate the fact that you are able to hold two or more thoughts in your head at the same time, so to speak. This is a genuine compliment, and I mean it in all sincerity.

It is well known that you are not a "fan" of Dylan and Eric, nor do you have much sympathy for them when all is said and done, and that is absolutely your right, as well as anyone else's who feels similarly. But you refuse to let it deter you from discussing the blatant reality concerning the subject at hand, along with many other subjects.

I am apologizing beforehand if this post of mine makes you at all uncomfortable, but I want to thank you and let you know that I truly admire and appreciate that while you have always shared your opinions very bluntly and without apology (and you DO NOT need to apologize for them), you never allow your personal feelings to taint your view of the facts.


And on another note, there are quite a few embellished factoids on the list that is being used to "destroy" David Cullen's detractors. These were discussed in depth in an older post [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.].

tfsa47090 wrote:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], I sincerely appreciate the fact that you are able to hold two or more thoughts in your head at the same time, so to speak. This is a genuine compliment, and I mean it in all sincerity.

It is well known that you are not a "fan" of Dylan and Eric, nor do you have much sympathy for them when all is said and done, and that is absolutely your right, as well as anyone else's who feels similarly. But you refuse to let it deter you from discussing the blatant reality concerning the subject at hand, along with many others.

I am apologizing beforehand if this post of mine makes you at all uncomfortable, but I want to thank you and let you know that I truly admire and appreciate that while you have always shared your opinions very bluntly and without apology (and you DO NOT need to apologize for them), you never allow your personal feelings to taint your view of the facts.

Hey, I'm not a fanboy myself ... but I do let my feelings show.

Cullen is such a smarmy prick that it's hard not to want to knock him on his ass. You don't see Jeff Kass popping up on CNN or going to schools, preaching to the kids about Psycho Eric and Emo Dylan.

But, as I've said before, the real problem with Cullen is not his personality, or even his bullshit, but the effect he has on his readers. Folks like to feel that they know "the truth" - they get a kick out of feeling that they have some special insight. Cullen makes his readers feel that he's giving them that insight - "Here's the dirt on Eric and Dylan." His fans then feel qualified to go around saying, "Eric was a psychopath - end of story." Many if not most of them have no interest in considering other points of view.

I hate Cullen for creating so many Columbine know-nothings who think they know everything. I hate his fans more than him. But I blame him more than I blame them - after all, he not only wrote the book, but he marketed it as the be-all and end-all account of the massacre.

Now, I would never expect anyone who wants to know more about Columbine to spend as much time studying the case as I have. But I do get royally pissed off when I hear someone who's never read anything on the subject other than Cullenbine say something like, "Cullen has all the answers."

Some of Cullen's fans have read other books, and still find his the best. That's fine. But I dare say most of them have not.

LPorter101 wrote:

tfsa47090 wrote:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], I sincerely appreciate the fact that you are able to hold two or more thoughts in your head at the same time, so to speak. This is a genuine compliment, and I mean it in all sincerity.

It is well known that you are not a "fan" of Dylan and Eric, nor do you have much sympathy for them when all is said and done, and that is absolutely your right, as well as anyone else's who feels similarly. But you refuse to let it deter you from discussing the blatant reality concerning the subject at hand, along with many others.

I am apologizing beforehand if this post of mine makes you at all uncomfortable, but I want to thank you and let you know that I truly admire and appreciate that while you have always shared your opinions very bluntly and without apology (and you DO NOT need to apologize for them), you never allow your personal feelings to taint your view of the facts.

Hey, I'm not a fanboy myself ... but I do let my feelings show.

Cullen is such a smarmy prick that it's hard not to want to knock him on his ass. You don't see Jeff Kass popping up on CNN or going to schools, preaching to the kids about Psycho Eric and Emo Dylan.

But, as I've said before, the real problem with Cullen is not his personality, or even his bullshit, but the effect he has on his readers. Folks like to feel that they know "the truth" - they get a kick out of feeling that they have some special insight. Cullen makes his readers feel that he's giving them that insight - "Here's the dirt on Eric and Dylan." His fans then feel qualified to go around saying, "Eric was a psychopath - end of story." Many if not most of them have no interest in considering other points of view.

I hate Cullen for creating so many Columbine know-nothings who think they know everything. I hate his fans more than him. But I blame him more than I blame them - after all, he not only wrote the book, but he marketed it as the be-all and end-all account of the massacre.

Now, I would never expect anyone who wants to know more about Columbine to spend as much time studying the case as I have. But I do get royally pissed off when I hear someone who's never read anything on the subject other than Cullenbine say something like, "Cullen has all the answers."

Some of Cullen's fans have read other books, and still find his the best. That's fine. But I dare say most of them have not.

Of course you're not! And you're one of the most open and honest people I've ever encountered on a forum, very frankly!

I do understand what it is you're getting at about Cullen, and I feel I've always understood it. I entirely agree with what you see about Cullen, his behavior concerning his book, and how you explain it.

I wanted to give lol some credit, though, as I feel it's quite due.

And people want everything in a neat, quick, clean, easily digestible format so they can shelve it and put it away, and yes, think that after the fact, they are now in possession of the ULTIMATE "truth". That is what his book provides without question. The people who do not want to venture further, won't, because they have no intention of expanding their minds in any capacity; critical thinking is freakishly foreign to them. I am rather certain those sorts behave as such when it comes to any topic.

But this subject is not remotely clean and neat, nor can it ever be easily digested, and it never will be.

lol wrote:

Eric via journal:
"Everyone is always making fun of me because of how I look, how fucking weak I am and shit, well I will get you all back, ultimate fucking revenge here. You people could have shown more respect, treated me better, asked for my knowledge or guidance more, treated me more like a senior, and maybe I wouldn’t have been so ready to tear your fucking heads off. Then again, I have always hated how I looked, I make fun of people who look like me, sometimes without even thinking sometimes just because I want to rip on myself. That’s where a lot of my hate grows from. The fact that I have practically no self-esteem, especially concerning girls and looks and such. Therefore people make fun of me … constantly … therefore I get no respect and therefore I get fucking PISSED.

I'm sorry, but the parts of the journal you quoted are not about bullying. That's about Eric complaining about his friends (Nate, Baumgart, Robyn's crowd etc) who make fun of him and don't give him enough respect and not invite him to cool events. That's about his friends, not the jocks.

It wouldn't make any sense for Eric to complain about jocks not "asking him for guidance". That's line alone is evidence that the whole rant is clearly aimed at his friends in his own crowd, not the joks or bullies.

As for the basement tapes - I really need to see these first to make any sort of judgement, because the reports from people who seen these contradict one another and are not very precise. Perhaps Eric did mention bullying there, perhaps not. We don't know cause the tapes were likley destroyed.

We do have their websites and their journals. These mention a lot of different things, but don't mention bullying.

Again: doesn't mean Eric was not bullied, he probably was at soem point.

But he wasn't very bothered by that, since he prefers to make rants about school and society turning people into factory-drone robots, not about abuse or bullying or even jocks. He does complain once about "rich snoty kids" and taht seems to be the only rant against peers who are not his friends.

So it is just a coincidence that Eric and Dylan put their duffel bags (contained with 20lb propane bombs) next to a table where jocks mainly sat?

And where are you getting your evidence that Eric was speaking of his friends there? He was invited to Robyns party the last week of March (without Dylan) and she invited him. Also, I see nothing in all the BT reviews that contradict each other with Eric saying people always made fun of him. Can you provide me an example?

What about Nate Dykeman and Chris Morris who both said Eric was bullied a lot? The Ketchup Incident? The gym locker incident?

Of course Eric wont talk about being bullied via public website, or his journal. He acts like a big macho man, and tries to come off as being tough. He left his journal in plain sight. Same with the Nixon tape...all for his audience. If I plan a massacre I sure as hell would put off a tough guy attitude in my journal so people would read and think "oh man this guy is evil...a psychopath! Etc". His 'Reb' persona and his 'Eric' persona. Reb is the bad ass he always wanted to be. Eric is that little weirdo kid who people always made fun of. Look how quiet Eric is in, "Eric in Columbine" compared to when he is with Dylan.

He was messed with a few times by Dan Lab, and Brandon Larson. Both sophomores. It was a huge blow to Erics ego that as a senior he was being disrespected.

Look at Eric's body language in this clip:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

(The narrator is wrong - this was shot in late 1998, and Dylan was not filming.)

As soon as Eric sees the bigger boys, he stops talking and stands up ramrod straight, like he's steeling for a fight.

Then, as he nears them, he lowers his head and cowers like a little dog.

Where's his swagger? You tell me, Dave.

lol wrote:

And where are you getting your evidence that Eric was speaking of his friends there?

Well just look at what he wrote and you will know who it refers to.

Eric comments how people have not "asked for my knowledge or guidance more". That statement alone proves that he is refering to people that are on "speaking terms" at least, probably more given that he uses the word "guidance". Eric wouldn't want jocks to come ask him for guidance, seeing that he wouldn't even talk to them.

This whole passage wouldn't make sense if it was to be about bullying and jocks. Nope, he is refering to the same people who "don't invite him" even that "he asked an all' - he uses the same sort of phrases here.

This is about respect and social status amongs his peers and friends. Not fighting with jocks.

lol wrote:

Of course Eric wont talk about being bullied via public website, or his journal. He acts like a big macho man, and tries to come off as being tough.

No he's not. He feels comfortable writing about how he is physically weak and how he's not getting any. That's not an macho act in the slightest. He's being frank and honest in his journal, even if he is being bombastic about the whole attack plan.

He cares deeply about the fact that he doesn't get all the respect he feels he deserves and also annoyed about not getting girls. Thus he writes about this, often in lenght. He doesn't write about bullying, probably because he doesn't care about that.


Again, I'm not saying Eric was nto bullied at CHS or that jocks didn't pester him. He by all evidence was bullied and jocks did pester him, Brooks, Dylan, Chirs, Nate, Kirsten, Joe, Jonathan... and probably over half of all the other CHS students at soem point in their lives.

What I mean to say is that both Eric and Dylan had issues that they considered much more severe and important and they both write about these issues in great lenght. Bullying was just one small part of living in a society that they considered to be pretty bad and they don't seem to give in much attention as far as their writing goes.

You have a point there. Eric did put it all on himself though. He was a total jack ass to his friends. If you're consistently losing friends the problem isn't them, it is you. Kid got in a falling out with Nate, Zach, Brooks, etc. I'm shocked he never got mad at Chris Morris for something stupid. I believe he even got mad at Dylan. Jason (guy who worked at BJ with Eric and Dylan) said that Dylan told him that Eric and he were arguing.

Look, I agree. I believe they were bullied, but there were other motives, but I believe bullying was a big part, while you believe bullying was a smart part, while Cullen believes they never were bullied (which he is a total hack and why most people on this board do not take him or his book seriously). Anyway, my question to you is if bullying wasn't the big motive, why did they go to the high school? Why blow up Columbine High School? Why did Dylan say, "This is for all the shit you've given us for the past 4 years! All jocks with white hats, STAND UP!"

Or when Eric was pointing a gun at Bree P's face while laughing and she said, "And he kept pointing a gun in my face laughing asking if I wanted to do die, and he said it was all because people were mean to him last year".

I think the main motives were diferent for both Eric and Dylan.

Dylan was increasingly locking himself in his own world with his depression and romantic misery. At the same time he was angry, suicidal and was lookign for a way out. That's why he did it. In a way its easier to understand and more similar to egular "teenage angst". The big difference is that Dylan didn't want to die quietly, he wanted to go out with a bang and vent some of his rage first.

Eric was increasingly angry at the way society works, at the perspectives he seen for himself and his unwillingness to participate in that society. Bullying might have been one of the reasons why he developped his dislike for that society, but by 1998-1999 is was just a toothpick in a log stack of other grieviances.
There's a reason why Eric when he writes about school, he does not write  abotu bulying, but rather how school is turning people into factory-working robots and mindless drones devoid of natural instncts. That's why he did it - he hated the world and teh society he lived in and decided that not to participate and leave a burnign hole in his wake was the most he can do in said circumstances.

Why did they pick the school? I see numerous reasons:

1) First of all it was a common target for both. I think Eric alone might have accepted another target like a mall or administrative building (By all evidence he did study the Oklahoma bombing and was impressed). However CHS was what they had in common with Dylan and that's imho the main reason.

2) CHS for D&E sucked for a lot of reasons. Teachers who didn't respect individuality and forced their own interpretation of things was one reason. Bull;ying was another. Evangelical christians and "risch snotty kids" were another. Overlall I think E&D would have qualms about blowing up blakcjack, they didn't have any about CHS.

3) It was a building very familiar to them. They knew the classroom layouts, they knew when are there the most kids at the cafeteria, they went there everyday and wouldn't cause suspicion by being there. Spree killers mostly pick targets that they are familiar with, even if its not a place they are currently studying or working at (Kazimierczak being a good example).

4) They spent most of the past 4 years there. For them, CHS did in fact represent the world and society at large.

5) It was a "safe" target - they knew that they could go in, plant the bombs, start shooting and cops still wouldn't arive within a few minutes. IMHO taht was the decisive reason why they choose CHS over the Sheriff's dept or a similar police target.

All true, but I look back and do recall Eric mentioned being bullied on his website,

“ My recent OTC [over-the-counter] of choice is cough syrup. I recommend it highly. It’s the best thing after a hard day of being called ‘ gay’ by a schoolyard full of fashionable jocks and cheerleaders.”  

lol wrote:

All true, but I look back and do recall Eric mentioned being bullied on his website,

“ My recent OTC [over-the-counter] of choice is cough syrup. I recommend it highly. It’s the best thing after a hard day of being called ‘ gay’ by a schoolyard full of fashionable jocks and cheerleaders.”  

OK everyone, I am VERY sorry to derail this thread, but I have to set something straight concerning this "website of Eric's" being referenced here.

It is a farce. It is a PHONY website created by who knows who AFTER the massacre; someone pretending to be Eric.

Larkin's book references this as a SOURCE repeatedly, and it is why I will not recommend his book to anyone without giving them a tediously long disclaimer regarding this ridiculous blunder. HOWEVER, I DO recommend people to read it (and EVERY book they can find about the subject) and come to their own conclusions.

One MUST bear this in mind when reading Comprehending Columbine. You make a mental note of it before delving into reading it, and you will be able to sort of "block out" the parts that reference it.

One more thing:


Eric DID have websites. He had AOL pages, as well as WBS (WebChat Brodcasting System) pages. Those are legitimate.

To expound upon this, I am going to quote some old posts of mine about this book. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] is the thread these posts originate from.

tfsa47090 wrote:

I want to add something about Ralph Larkin's Comprehending Columbine:

He ACTUALLY QUOTES THIS WEBSITE in his book!!!!

If that doesn't say enough about this man's researching skills, I don't know what will.

Does the book have interesting points and interviews? Yes, in my opinion it does. That doesn't change the fact that he repeatedly quoted and SOURCED a phony website!!

Seriously, that's as horrendously irresponsible as Cullen including Brenda Parker's "story" in his book as fact.

tfsa47090 wrote:

queenfarooq wrote:

tfsa47090 wrote:

I want to add something about Ralph Larkin's Comprehending Columbine:

He ACTUALLY QUOTES THIS WEBSITE in his book!!!!

If that doesn't say enough about this man's researching skills, I don't know what will.

Does the book have interesting points and interviews? Yes, in my opinion it does. That doesn't change the fact that he repeatedly quoted and SOURCED a phony website!!

Seriously, that's as horrendously irresponsible as Cullen including Brenda Parker's "story" in his book as fact.

I agree.
I feel like if someone is desperate to find a source for a quote or a source to back up their research no matter how questionable the source is they can find one and are happy to use it. Sometimes i wonder if researchers just think that nobody else will bother to check their sources or don't actually check the sources properly themselves. I think it's highly unlikely Larkin saw this website and thought 'wow what a fantastically credible website for me to use for my book.'

I have not read Comprehending Columbine for a while and i don't own a copy but was intending to read it again soon.

I read Comprehending Columbine when it was released, which was in 2007, I believe. I'd seen that ridiculous website a few years prior, but didn't connect it immediately while reading the book. I just knew that when I read the multiple references to it in the book, something was inherently wrong with them.

I read it again about a year and a half ago to two years ago, and once again, the quotes from "Eric Harris' 'Trenchcoat Mafia' website" (Larkin's literal description when referencing it) just made me nauseous.

A few months ago, I was looking on conspiracy-esque forums and saw that site linked. I clicked on it, and said "THERE'S that utterly STUPID site! THAT'S the one referenced in Larkin's book!" (I do that now and again---going on weird conspiracy theory websites/forums. Believe it or not, you can find little snippets of information that you can research further on your own that you won't find otherwise. Usually names and dates. Of course, the majority of this type of information is fruitless and nonsensical, but there'd been a few times I found some interesting information through my own searches with a name, date, or location referenced through such mediums. In short, it's a good idea to look everywhere, no matter how deranged the sites may be overall, and then research further on your own).

There's no excuse for this whatsoever. This was written and published eight years after it happened. He is also one of the people who says that it's Dylan filming Eric, Mike V., and Brandi and her friend walking, when we all know it was Erik Veik. He says it right in this book.

Despite all of this, I don't discourage anyone from reading it. I think that when you're researching something, you actually need to and should read everything that you can, from all sides. However, this desperate need (from some people) to find and "officially" name ONE source as the "holy grail", especially in a complicated situation such as this, is never going to be satiated with one single book. It just isn't. They're all flawed; all unreliable in one way or another. One needs to read them all, among other things, and piece everything together themselves. Even then, the whole story is not ever going to be entirely clear.

Well done.

I had no idea it was fake. Thanks for the information.

Quote :

He is also one of the people who says that it's Dylan filming Eric, Mike V., and Brandi and her friend walking, when we all know it was Erik Veik. He says it right in this book.

Right after they say bye to Brandi, they enter the video productions classroom and Dylan is there (24:20 to 24:26), I don't know how anyone could think he's also behind the camera?!?

lio45 wrote:

Quote :

He is also one of the people who says that it's Dylan filming Eric, Mike V., and Brandi and her friend walking, when we all know it was Erik Veik. He says it right in this book.

Right after they say bye to Brandi, they enter the video productions classroom and Dylan is there (24:20 to 24:26), I don't know how anyone could think he's also behind the camera?!?

To be fair, back in the day many people believed it was Dylan filming. As a matter of fact even in a documentary, "Columbine: The Final Reports" speaks that it is Dylan holding the camera. Then again that is the same document where it has that dumb ass Dave Cullen so.....

I already disagree with Larkin. He portrays Dylan as a follower, possibly bisexual (I find preposterous), and speaks that Dylan was hot headed while Eric was more level headed. I wonder if Cullen and Larkin fed off on each other on their crap portraying Eric, and Dylan...which is wrong.

I have no idea where in the hell these "researchers" are getting that Dylan was the hot headed one of the two, which is also bullshit. Eric always blew his top off. He was not a "calm cool level-headed" guy. If anything, that portrays more going into his senior year to try and keep the plan intact, and not get himself in trouble like the previous year. Dylan was rarely, if ever angry, and when he was it was a rare glimpse, and he would scare everyone. He internalized his anger, while Eric externalized his.

lol wrote:

“ My recent OTC [over-the-counter] of choice is cough syrup. I recommend it highly. It’s the best thing after a hard day of being called ‘ gay’ by a schoolyard full of fashionable jocks and cheerleaders.”  

That's from the real website? I think it was from that fake one that Larkin references, wasn't it?

lol wrote:

I already disagree with Larkin. He portrays Dylan as a follower, possibly bisexual (I find preposterous), and speaks that Dylan was hot headed while Eric was more level headed.

If you think taht's bad, wait till you get to the "Erioc as a nazi paramilitary" part. Then you will DISAGREE with Larkin ;)

lol wrote:

I have no idea where in the hell these "researchers" are getting that Dylan was the hot headed one of the two, which is also bullshit. Eric always blew his top off. He was not a "calm cool level-headed" guy. If anything, that portrays more going into his senior year to try and keep the plan intact, and not get himself in trouble like the previous year. Dylan was rarely, if ever angry, and when he was it was a rare glimpse, and he would scare everyone. He internalized his anger, while Eric externalized his.

Certainly, Eric was the more impulsive, and more openly angry guy. The incident with the poorly driving girls at athe parking lot is probably the best example of how diferent Eric was from Dylan in hsi reactions in public.

Dylan was also angry, but not in public. He realy internalzied his anger, kept it locked up (possibly because of social anxiety?) until 4/20.

"Dave Cullen is an intelligent and gracious man, and a gifted writer."

I am shocked to learn that LPorter101 once used the above to describe Dave Cullen.

Radioactive_Clothing wrote:

"Dave Cullen is an intelligent and gracious man, and a gifted writer."

I am shocked to learn that LPorter101 once used the above to describe Dave Cullen.

I can kiss ass with the best of them.

Dave Cullen is just as bad as the media was in the hours, weeks, and months after the shooting. His book is the "definitive" story and his lies and omissions restrict the general publics understanding of rampage shootings as a whole. Its easy to label Eric a psycho and Dylan a follower. Its also incredibly lazy and goes against the integrity journalists are supposed to have. Anyone who spends even a small amount of time researching Columbine can see that Eric psychopath attitude and ego was simply false bravado and that Dylan was the better manipulator of the two. Cullen likes to complain about the shit he gets from both "Columbiners" and researchers like ourselves, but he has to know how many facts he got wrong. Plus who needs 10 years to research this case and put a book together? I've only been into studying Columbine for about a year now and I'm positive that I, and most people on this board, have a better understanding of the boys motives, personalities, and thought processes as a whole.

Radioactive_Clothing wrote:

"Dave Cullen is an intelligent and gracious man, and a gifted writer."

I am shocked to learn that LPorter101 once used the above to describe Dave Cullen.

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Oh, yeah ... I remember that. I was trying to be nice to Cullen at that time.

A lot of good it did me ... after a while, I said, "Fuck it - he's not going to post on the board, and he's not going to address any of his critics openly and honestly, so I might as well stop pretending that I have anything but contempt for him."

Truthfully, I have been somewhat harsh ... I shall make an effort to find nice things to say about Cullen's book.

I plan to submit these reviews to various sites:

"HEY EVERYBODdY I JUST RED THE GR8TEST BOK IT IS SO KEWL IT IS CALED COLUMBIEN BY DAVE CULEN AND HE IS TOTALLY GIVING THE WHOLE STOREE BEHIND THE ATAKC. AND I THINK YOU SHOULD REED THE BOK SO YOU CAN NO WAT HAPPENED THER."

"I've just read Columbine by Dave Cullen, and I must say I am truly impressed. In fact, I was so captivated by it that I didn't even notice when my 16-year-old neighbor escaped from my basement. (Don't worry - I managed to catch her before she got too far. That's the great thing about living in rural Montana - no one can hear them scream.)"

You know, one of these days someone is gonna do something to Cullen and with wtaht you posted, you will fidn the boys in blue busting your door down in the middle of the night ;)

Sabratha wrote:

You know, one of these days someone is gonna do something to Cullen and with wtaht you posted, you will fidn the boys in blue busting your door down in the middle of the night ;)

No, that's never going to happen. They'll go after the Tumblr crazies first ... they're a lot meaner than I am.

I mean, if I were in Cullen's position, and someone said the things about me that I say about him, how would I react? I'd laugh and say, "Fuck you - I've got my money and my fame. My book will be on shelves long after your forum posts have faded into digital oblivion. Who gives a shit what you think?"

(Well, I might not say that ... but I sure as hell wouldn't cower in my room and say, "Oh, my, those meanies are so nasty toward me!")

In the scheme of things, Cullen is an ant in the afterbirth.

True. Maybe I'm exaggerating the forum people in thinking they are all psychopaths like I am.

But then again, we had Lanza on the old forums.

So yeah.

Sabratha wrote:

True. Maybe I'm exaggerating the forum people in thinking they are all psychopaths like I am.

So you do admit that you are one ... that's good to know.

Quote :

But then again, we had Lanza on the old forums.

So yeah.

Yeah, but he never had any real interest in Eric, Dylan, or anyone else relating to Columbine.

We often say, "Boy, I wish I could have spoken to Eric and Dylan" ... believe me, if you'd had the chance to speak to them before the massacre, you wouldn't be happy about it now. You'd be wondering if they ever said anything that might potentially have revealed their homicidal impulses and intentions. You'd be going over every word in your mind, looking for clues that likely were never there.

LPorter101 wrote:

Sabratha wrote:

True. Maybe I'm exaggerating the forum people in thinking they are all psychopaths like I am.

So you do admit that you are one ... that's good to know.

Was there ever any doubt?

Sabratha wrote:

But then again, we had Lanza on the old forums.

So yeah.

You did? Are you sure it was him? What did he talk about? Did he appear suicidal/homicidal?