Entire thread that was created in 2009 and continued into 2011 (it's dated as such) on the old forum that I copy/pasted and saved into a document last autumn. Eric and Dylan's old boss from Black Jack came in to discuss things. His name is Jason Secor, and his user name is Venturo. I thought this was very interesting, and that is why I saved it.
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lporter101
Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2009 7:19 am
Posts: 12268
Location: The land of sour milk and rancid honey
Eric and Dylan's boss
The Denver Post - Sunday, June 27, 1999
School rampage rocks pizzeria owner
Columbine shooters his employees
By Christopher Cooper
The Wall Street Journal
How desperate are the employees at Blackjack Pizza No. 2025? Lately, they've been counting on the magical powers of pepperoni.
"The superstition," says store owner Christopher Lau, rolling his eyes. "My manager says that putting a slice of pepperoni on the phones makes them ring."
Not that the 33-year-old pizza man is going out of his way to debunk the notion. He can use any help he can get, as he faces a dilemma that budding young entrepreneurs don't learn about in business school: What to do when two model employees inexplicably become murderers?
Two of Lau's pizza cooks were Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris, who horrified the nation on April 20 by killing 12 fellow Columbine High School students and a teacher before taking their own lives.
Lau was as horrified as anyone by the mayhem. But, as reporters began descending on his parlor within hours of the attack, he also realized that fallout from the shootings could bankrupt the business that he and his wife had sunk their life savings into just six weeks earlier, and kill a dream that Lau had been nurturing for more than five years.
Buying the place had been risky enough. Tucked away in a faded strip mall, the pizzeria was cramped, cluttered and dingy. The dough mixer was ancient, the workforce apathetic, the profits nonexistent.
But Lau sniffed opportunity. A rangy Pennsylvanian with tortoise-shell glasses and a precisely clipped goatee, he had moved to the area in 1994 for his wife, Linda, to pursue a degree in counseling psychology at the University of Denver.
He took a job at a Blackjack outlet. Hired as a manager trainee, he was immediately put to work kneading dough, tending ovens and making deliveries. He was surprised by how much he enjoyed himself.
Soon he was talking about buying a store, and possibly someday running a stable of Blackjack outlets. Linda Lau, by then a college counselor, arranged their lives to make it happen. To save money, they drove their aging cars until the springs sagged and made do with a tiny apartment in a modest part of town.
Franchise for sale
When a franchise in fast-growing south Jefferson County went up for sale when Lau was finishing a business degree at the University of Colorado at Denver, he spent months studying its books and chatting up its owner. In early March, he plunked down his meager savings and proceeds from a Small Business Administration loan to buy the store.
He had calculated the risk right down to the pie. The store had been losing money on a gross of about $5,000 a week. But Lau figured he needed to gross $6,000 a week just to cover operating costs.
Tacking on another $2,000 a week to cover capital improvements, such as oven replacements and plumbing repairs, Lau figured he needed to move about 1,217 pies a week, or 60 percent more pizzas than sold by the previous owners.
To help, Lau spirited away Jason Secor, the manager at the campus Blackjack where Lau got his start. As they set about sprucing up the south Jefferson County store, Lau went to work on an aggressive advertising campaign that included door hangers, direct mail and coupons taped to pizza boxes, because as he puts it, "advertising is the heart of this business."
Although he didn't know any of them well, Lau turned a cold eye on employees he inherited from the former regime, several of whom were Columbine students. Most didn't like the dress code and other rules Lau imposed to instill esprit de corps. The few who didn't quit included Klebold and Harris, two clean-cut cooks who were conscientious, punctual and good in the pizza kitchen.
After only two weeks, Lau was pleasantly surprised to see that gross sales had leapt by 22 percent. His battle plan seemed to be working. "It's not deep philosophy," he says. "I just applied standard business principles to the operation."
But the turnaround at Blackjack No. 2025 came to an abrupt halt on April 20, when his two cooks strode into the high school, guns blazing. News of the shootings came to Lau through his manager, Secor, who was headed to work at the pizzeria as the bullets flew. Even as Secor was making calls to ensure Blackjack employees weren't among the victims, reporters began phoning the store to ask about the two gunmen. That's how Lau found out that the killers were his cooks. It knocked the breath out of him.
Sitting in the dim cubbyhole that passes for his office, Lau says he has replayed over and over again everything he ever observed about the two teenagers, coming up with nothing. "It was unfathomable to me that two people who worked in my kitchen could have done something so terrible," he says.
But the effect the event would have on his business and his psyche became chillingly clear when Lau arrived at his store a few days after the massacre. Turning the lights on, he noticed that the safe that had been open when he left the day before was now shut and locked. Could the cooks have rigged the safe with bombs?
He felt his palms grow damp. A short time later, Lau, standing in his kitchen and flanked by his wife and a worker, carefully turned the dial on the safe, taking care to shield his body behind the heavy door.
It was empty, but the same feeling of uncertainty and dread stayed with him as he tried to go about his routine, cleaning the bathroom and mopping the floors. "There was just no way for me to wrap my mind around what was happening," says Lau.
Closed for several days
There was more to come. Hoping that the tumult might die down, Lau closed the pizzeria for several days after the shootings, but when he reopened, the reporters were still there, pressing up against the front windows with their cameras and filming the shell-shocked workers inside.
"These poor guys had enough to deal with," Lau says of his employees, several of whom are Columbine students. "Work should have been a haven for them."
Instead, work was a fish bowl. Hoping to divert attention away from his young workers, Lau spent one sleepless night laboring over a press release. It contained the killers' Blackjack work history and said that no one at the shop had had any clue about their plans. When reporters continued to appear, he developed a new routine, meeting visitors at the door and easing them into the parking lot before saying a word.
As he fumbled to control the press, Lau discovered he could do less about the crank callers who were tormenting his employees. Secor, the manager, says numerous callers called the store in the days following the shootings demanding such items as "pipe-bomb pizzas," and "TEC-9 specials," in reference to one of the guns used in the massacre.
There were other jarring calls as well. Linda Lau recalls an Iowa man who offered cash for the signed time sheets and job applications left behind by the two gunmen.
Although Lau couldn't disconnect the phones without strangling his takeout business, he gave employees permission to hang up on crank callers. He assured them that, with time, such calls would pass, and indeed, they did.
But one caller got Lau to thinking. "I'm never going to order pizza again from you because of the people you hire," he remembers the man saying. "That was the kind of thing I was gravely concerned would destroy the store," Lau says.
For a while, the fears seemed warranted. Sales slid to around 700 pies a week, or $4,600, compared with the $7,000 weekly gross shortly before the shooting. Lau's dream was hemorrhaging money and for the first time he was scared. He stopped opening for lunch and began closing the store altogether on Mondays, the slowest day of the week.
Amid the turmoil, Lau and his staff were having trouble keeping up with the orders that did come. Secor suffered from relentless nightmares. Lau invited him to dinner and sent a basket of flowers in a show of support. A number of employees requested funeral leave, which Lau granted without question. Others, many of them Columbine students, began showing up late and out of uniform, prompting Lau to relax his dress code. These things, too, had not been discussed in business school. "I wish that I had brought in some grief counselors," he now says.
Making matters worse, Lau was forced to reduce his already depleted staff even further. He had 16 employees before the massacre. He says he dismissed a cook who was captured on television being led away from the school in handcuffs. The former employee hasn't been charged with a crime, and his lawyer says the dismissal was actually a resignation. A Blackjack deliveryman was also let go for bragging - falsely, it turned out - about having knowledge of where his coworkers obtained their guns.
Former driver charged
Another Blackjack employee allegedly did play a role in the crime: Phillip Joseph Duran, a former driver, was charged with acting as a middleman in the sale of the TEC-DC9 assault pistol used by the killers. Duran, also an inherited employee, worked with Lau for about two weeks before taking another job several weeks before the shootings. "Neat appearance, no discipline problems," Lau says of Duran. "I never had any suspicions about him."
The tight local job market - and possibly a Columbine stigma.[/b]
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Sat Jun 12, 2010 8:27 pm
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Last edited by Guest on Sun Feb 13, 2011 12:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Sat Jun 12, 2010 8:53 pm
lporter101
Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2009 7:19 am
Posts: 12268
Location: The land of sour milk and rancid honey
Quote:
You seem to find the obscure, tucked-away stuff lporter - it's good.
I actually do a lot of searches by date. For example, not too long ago I was reading about something that was going to happen on the 27th, so just out of the blue I decided to do a search for articles with "Columbine" in the text published on June 27, 1999 (a Sunday in 1999 *and* this year, as well).
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Sat Jun 12, 2010 8:56 pm
justmythoughts
Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2010 7:42 pm
Posts: 284
Location: Good ole Kentucky
Hats off you you lporter. I always find your post interesting. Do you know if Black jack pizza(specifically the one E&D worked at) is still open? Sorry if this is a question thats been answered kinda new to the site.
Sat Jun 12, 2010 9:03 pm
lporter101
Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2009 7:19 am
Posts: 12268
Location: The land of sour milk and rancid honey
Do you know if Black jack pizza(specifically the one E&D worked at) is still open?
The chain is still around:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]but the particular store where Eric and Dylan is worked is something else now:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] ... php?t=2739
Here's an amusing (or annoying, based on your perspective) YouTube clip:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] ... php?t=2798
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Sat Jun 12, 2010 9:14 pm
JShouberty
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:40 pm
Posts: 150
Location: San Ysidro
I was wondering what types of effects the massacre had on Blackjacks. Thank you so much for the wide variety of obscure articles you post on the aftermath of Columbine.
Sat Jun 12, 2010 11:02 pm
lporter101
Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2009 7:19 am
Posts: 12268
Location: The land of sour milk and rancid honey
Quote:
Thank you so much for the wide variety of obscure articles you post on the aftermath of Columbine.
You're welcome. I'll keep digging.
_________________
"You see things; and you say, 'Why?' But I dream things that never were; and I say, 'Why not?'" - George Bernard Shaw
Sat Jun 12, 2010 11:15 pm
asloversgo
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2010 2:50 pm
Posts: 1048
I love that you find all this stuff. Just think all these years later how many obsessed girls would love to eat there. Business could be booming haha
Sun Jun 13, 2010 12:15 am
thevirus8792
Joined: Wed May 05, 2010 7:31 pm
Posts: 637
Location: NJ
asloversgo wrote:
I love that you find all this stuff. Just think all these years later how many obsessed girls would love to eat there. Business could be booming haha
Ha! It would. I would like to eat at the original location. It would be so weird yet interesting to be there.
Anyway, I doubt it matters now. Most people don't even know, or care, where they worked now.
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Sun Jun 13, 2010 2:29 pm
lporter101
Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2009 7:19 am
Posts: 12268
Location: The land of sour milk and rancid honey
I'm bumping this.
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"You see things; and you say, 'Why?' But I dream things that never were; and I say, 'Why not?'" - George Bernard Shaw
Fri Sep 17, 2010 2:11 am
lporter101
Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2009 7:19 am
Posts: 12268
Location: The land of sour milk and rancid honey
lporter101 wrote:
I'm bumping this.
Again.
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Tue Nov 16, 2010 4:49 pm
anethema
Joined: Sun Apr 06, 2008 7:22 pm
Posts: 719
Even though Blackjack the business is closed, I'm wondering if it would be possible to go behind the building and see where they detonated the dry ice bombs.
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Mon Nov 29, 2010 4:04 pm
absolutequiet
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2009 11:41 pm
Posts: 374
I missed this the first time you posted it lporter, please keep bumping your old stuff.
Mon Nov 29, 2010 7:11 pm
lporter101
Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2009 7:19 am
Posts: 12268
Location: The land of sour milk and rancid honey
absolutequiet wrote:
I missed this the first time you posted it lporter, please keep bumping your old stuff.
I will.
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"You see things; and you say, 'Why?' But I dream things that never were; and I say, 'Why not?'" - George Bernard Shaw
Tue Nov 30, 2010 12:07 am
Venturo
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 5:22 pm
Posts: 33
Hi guys.
Hello, my name is Jason Secor. Yes, the same from this very black jack pizza. I am amazed people are still talking about this 11 years later! I live it every day so I know why I still think of it. So this forum is for a columbine RPG game? If so, I am dumbfounded by people. Trust me the real thing ain't so fun. The hurt it caused all of us SUCKED. Anyways, came on here like I do once in awhile in articles etc, when people start wondering what really happened etc. Try to dispell with the myths and such...cuz frankly almost nobody has ever gotten this stuff right.,...apparently this game didn't either, at least partly, with Marilyn mansion (cd?). Whats that about? Both reb and Dylan hated marilyn manson and referred to him as a "faggot", their words, not mine. So anyways, hopefully there is some education to all this considering the crap that went down. Jason.
Fri Dec 03, 2010 6:12 pm
absolutequiet
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2009 11:41 pm
Posts: 374
Hi Jason, yes this is a forum based on a game. But the majority of people here really are here for research, finding out what happened really and why it did happen.
Besides the Marilyn Manson thing, what else has the media gotten wrong?
Mind telling us about your experience.
Fri Dec 03, 2010 6:21 pm
lporter101
Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2009 7:19 am
Posts: 12268
Location: The land of sour milk and rancid honey
Welcome to the board, Jason.
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"You see things; and you say, 'Why?' But I dream things that never were; and I say, 'Why not?'" - George Bernard Shaw
Last edited by lporter101 on Fri Dec 03, 2010 7:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Fri Dec 03, 2010 6:29 pm
Xerxes
Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2010 5:44 pm
Posts: 260
Location: US
Re: Hi guys.
Venturo wrote:
Both reb and Dylan hated marilyn manson and referred to him as a "faggot", their words, not mine.
Dylan reportedly has a MM poster in his room, and told his mother at least that he liked the music (if not the lyrics).
Fri Dec 03, 2010 7:20 pm
Venturo
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 5:22 pm
Posts: 33
Sure thing. Kinda my mini mission to educate if you will. One thing most don't know, is that the pipe bombs were let off in a field a mile or two away from blackjack. The reason? I was late for work that day and they were forced to alter the original plan. As the manager, I was never late, except that day. WE were supposed to be shot to hell as a distraction for the police, not the pipe bombs. The FBI informed us of that little tid bit as well as one of our employees that was waiting outside that day, saw them pull up, then drive away when i wasn't there.. Great little bit of guilt to live with huh? Needless to say, I don't like being late for anything now. Before people say "you were lucky cuz they woulda shot you!" I wasn't a high school kid and certainly had little fear, guns or not, I might have been able to talk em down or outright stop em. Pipe dream? Maybe, but I am the one left to wonder if I could have stopped em. So I blame myself for being late. I am not any kind of Nancy, but I certainly should have sought counseling. Anyways, the ATF, FBI, and just about every three letter agency you can imagine searched blackjack and interviewed us. Fun stuff. You don't find many articles from Chris or myself because it would've been blood money in our minds, and believe me, there was monies offered! A lot of the kids did interviews, but mostly from a friends perspective, not ultra objective in my opinion. The only real interview we did was with the wall street journal. It was free to them, and was an article based on how a business survives such a crisis. It saved that place. Until that time, no one knew our role, and many thought we were the kingpins...ridiculous! The police and FBI were the only ones who knew we were victims as well. They gathered some of their bomb making materials from blackjack. Such as the glass jugs for hot sauce. They would break them up to use as shrapnel. The klebolds are wonderful people. At least from what I knew. Didn't speak with Harris family too much. They kinda disappeared afterward. Reb was an extremely intelligent kid, quiet, but smart, and likable! We actually wanted to promote him to shift manager! Can you believe it?! Dylan was more outgoing and laughed more, but seemed like a good kid. There were NO signs, i dont care what all the talking heads say, i worked next to them both DAILY. I am no expert, but they were no different to me or many others from what i can recall. They loved rammstein. Hated manson. They did idolize hitler and the nazi ideal. For a couple tormented and apparently unstable kids, they couldnt have picked a worst role model. The "jocks" did indeed torment those two...on more occasions then most anybody knew or would admit. They threw rocks and bottles at them etc. Aside from the mental and emotional abuse as well. While there is absolutely no excuse for what transpired, they became a product of their environment. I liken it to this analogy: you cage a dog and poke it with a stick repeatedly and daily, it will become vicious. That is probably the single best summary of what happened. I liked the same music they did, I was angry at life growing up, I played violent video games, I watched violent movies, yet I didn't go shoot up a lot of innocent kids. I was much more social than reb or Dylan growing up and at least didn't get the repeated "torture" if you will that they received. Some of these incidents even transpired as they were coming to work a couple times. I tried to stick up for them, but real or imaginary, I never was able to confront anyone near the store. So I had to go on their word. So there is a quick synopsis. Feel free to ask more if you like. I am happy to answer what I can and what I know. Jason
Fri Dec 03, 2010 7:21 pm
Venturo
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 5:22 pm
Posts: 33
Well xerxes, I am not sure where that "info" comes from, but I know at work day in and day out, they would refer to him, among others as a "faggot". They played rammstein DAILY. I don't mind the band, but I heard more than I cared for day and day out. So take that for what it's worth.
Fri Dec 03, 2010 7:23 pm
lporter101
Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2009 7:19 am
Posts: 12268
Location: The land of sour milk and rancid honey
Jason, have you read Dave Cullen's Columbine? If so, can you comment on Cullen's characterization of the two killers?
Cullen writes that Eric got "lots and lots of chicks," and that he "scored" with a 23-year-old woman named Brenda Parker.
(At first, Parker told the police that she and Eric went out a few times, but then she admitted that she made the whole thing up.)
Cullen also writes that Dylan was scared of Eric.
...
Did Eric and Dylan ever talk about the things that happened at school? Did they ever mention anything about "ketchup" or "tampons?"
(There are reports that the jocks threw ketchup and tampons at them in the cafeteria.)
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Fri Dec 03, 2010 7:53 pm
lporter101
Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2009 7:19 am
Posts: 12268
Location: The land of sour milk and rancid honey
It must have been really hard for you, Jason. We really appreciate your effort to reach out and talk about what happened.
I'm very surprised to hear that Eric and Dylan wanted to target Blackjack before the school. I don't think anyone has ever mentioned that before. I can understand why it might mess you up to think about it.
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"You see things; and you say, 'Why?' But I dream things that never were; and I say, 'Why not?'" - George Bernard Shaw
Fri Dec 03, 2010 8:02 pm
justmythoughts
Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2010 7:42 pm
Posts: 284
Location: Good ole Kentucky
Re: Hi guys.
Venturo wrote:
Hello, my name is Jason Secor. Yes, the same from this very black jack pizza. I am amazed people are still talking about this 11 years later! I live it every day so I know why I still think of it. So this forum is for a columbine RPG game? If so, I am dumbfounded by people. Trust me the real thing ain't so fun. The hurt it caused all of us SUCKED. Anyways, came on here like I do once in awhile in articles etc, when people start wondering what really happened etc. Try to dispell with the myths and such...cuz frankly almost nobody has ever gotten this stuff right.,...apparently this game didn't either, at least partly, with Marilyn mansion (cd?). Whats that about? Both reb and Dylan hated marilyn manson and referred to him as a "faggot", their words, not mine. So anyways, hopefully there is some education to all this considering the crap that went down. Jason.
Do you have any proof you are who you say you are? I'm not trying to say your lying but anyone can make an account and claim to be someone.
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[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]Fri Dec 03, 2010 8:43 pm
MnM
Joined: Wed May 17, 2006 9:17 pm
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Location: Lincoln: "Those who deny freedom to others, deserve it not for themselves.""
Hey, welcome to the board Jason. I'm sorry it was so tough on you.
Columbine seems to have hurt everyone involved. I know at least two of their friends became alcoholics out of shame and guilt, and one of their jock tormentors took to shooting up meth.
As for Blackjack today... the location appeared to close a few years after. I guess the shooting had a big negative impact. Today a karate studio fills where it once was.
But, ya know, E/D loved hanging at Funplex but nobody's held that place "accountable". I think it's sad that anyone would view Blackjack negatively because of what happened.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] ... =alcoholic
Also, just out of curiosity, do you know whatever happened to Kirgis? He seems like a nice guy and Eric and Dylan liked him so much that they even spoke kind words about him in their basement videos before the massacre.
Fri Dec 03, 2010 8:54 pm
Venturo
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 5:22 pm
Posts: 33
Iporter101, no I have not read that book. I was asked to consult on a book with someone about 2 weeks after all this, and at that time, we were and still are utterly disgusted with any media folks. Maybe same person? Not sure. They are bottom feeders. Anyways, they didn't mention ketchup and tampons specifically, they were repeatedly hurt and upset by things at school, But whenever I tried to inquire, they would clam up and refer to them as "faggots", which is what they pretty much called everything they didnt like. I do know this though, one day they both came to work out of breath and upset. I asked why. They said that a bunch of jocks were throwing rocks and bottles at them. We ran out back to nobody there. This happened more than once. I don't remember eric(reb) being a chick magnet. That sounds somewha far fetched, as these two were in more of a clique than anything (trench coat mafia thing). Dylan was NOT scared of reb. That is ridiculous. Those two were pretty much inseparable. The had one spat for a day or two, and I don't recall Dylan running away or cowerin in a corne by any stretch. A coupl of peas in a pod for sure.
Fri Dec 03, 2010 9:15 pm
Venturo
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 5:22 pm
Posts: 33
@justmythoughts, I am not sure how, other than these details, to prove to you, I am who I say. I obviously can't post my social sec. Num. Have run across skeptics before. Some think it's for attention etc, but I assure you, I didn't want any money or attention then or now. Only to let people know what actually was going on. Maybe someone smarter than me can figure it out. It is somewhat therapeutic to talk to others though so that is one other reason, I poke my head out of my shell with this every now and then.
Fri Dec 03, 2010 9:20 pm
justmythoughts
Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2010 7:42 pm
Posts: 284
Location: Good ole Kentucky
Venturo wrote:
@justmythoughts, I am not sure how, other than these details, to prove to you, I am who I say. I obviously can't post my social sec. Num. Have run across skeptics before. Some think it's for attention etc, but I assure you, I didn't want any money or attention then or now. Only to let people know what actually was going on. Maybe someone smarter than me can figure it out. It is somewhat therapeutic to talk to others though so that is one other reason, I poke my head out of my shell with this every now and then.
I'm in no way trying to insult you or call you a liar i was just curious. I'm not saying you aren't who you're saying you are but you never know, ya know? I guess we'll just have to take your word for it.
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[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]Fri Dec 03, 2010 9:23 pm
Venturo
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 5:22 pm
Posts: 33
@MNM, holy crap! Now here is someone who knows some stuff! Yes I do know where kirgis is. You wouldn't believe where either. Frankly, I don't like the guy. He knew more of the BS than Chris or I would ever have tolerated. He was a bad influence, and frankly he should've been prosecuted for his apathy! sorry if he is you or a friend of yours, but his negligence and irresponsibility led to all this being undiscovered until it was too late...IMO. I Dont think he recognized me, but I ran into him a few years ago, and he was still there last year. Don't know if I should say where, because it could make me liable, bad mouthing him and all. Let's just say a "predominate sandwich making chain in Denver". I stayed with Chris and black jack for only a short time. Couldn't take the pizza biz after that any more. I told Chris I would help build it back unto where we were, than I had to move on. It took a couple months of ass bustin but we got it there. Chris moved to Pennsylvania with his family. Poor guy. One of the nicest guys and friends I ever worked with. Wrong tome wrong place.
Fri Dec 03, 2010 9:30 pm
lporter101
Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2009 7:19 am
Posts: 12268
Location: The land of sour milk and rancid honey
Quote:
Have run across skeptics before.
It's human nature to be somewhat skeptical.
Still, I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt. I'm very interested to hear what you have to say.
Quote:
The had one spat for a day or two,
Do you remember when it was - how long before 4/20?
Do you remember what it was about?
...
Did Eric ever talk about trying to get a date for the prom?
Did he ever talk about girls at all?
...
So you would say that Eric and Dylan were bullied on a constant basis?
The reason why I ask you about Dave Cullen's book is because it's the most popular one out there, by far.
He has said that they were not bullied at all - that they were actually pretty popular around the school.
He definitely makes Eric out to be the leader, and Dylan the follower.
The thing is that *a lot* of people have read his book, and now believe that Eric was this swaggering ladies' man and that Dylan was this sad little guy who followed him around.
(Well, obviously Dylan wasn't *little*, but you know what I mean.)
So your perspective is different from Cullen's. Very interesting.
_________________
"You see things; and you say, 'Why?' But I dream things that never were; and I say, 'Why not?'" - George Bernard Shaw
Fri Dec 03, 2010 9:32 pm
lporter101
Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2009 7:19 am
Posts: 12268
Location: The land of sour milk and rancid honey
Quote:
I am not sure how, other than these details, to prove to you, I am who I say. I obviously can't post my social sec. Num.
Some of the police interviews (available online in the 11K) *do* include some people's Social Security numbers, believe it or not.
Your number is *not* available, so you can rest easy about that.
_________________
"You see things; and you say, 'Why?' But I dream things that never were; and I say, 'Why not?'" - George Bernard Shaw
Fri Dec 03, 2010 9:47 pm
ejolly0001
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2010 3:31 am
Posts: 43
I wonder if it was the sandwich shop that was the scene of a double murder...?
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Fri Dec 03, 2010 10:21 pm
MnM
Joined: Wed May 17, 2006 9:17 pm
Posts: 8759
Location: Lincoln: "Those who deny freedom to others, deserve it not for themselves.""
Well I don't know Kirgis personally. But I always thought he was cool since he was pretty much the -only- adult figure in E/D's lives they praised and had kind words for in the basement tapes besides their parents. If anything they needed more people who were nice to them.
Fri Dec 03, 2010 10:26 pm
Venturo
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 5:22 pm
Posts: 33
@MNM, he had kind words, true, but he did know stuff that kids should not be doing...and HE DID NOTHING! Except drink his beer in the store in front of those kids at the very least. Kind words or not I really disliked him after that. The place was a disaster when we came in. Firs time I saw it he offered me a beer...some business model huh?
Fri Dec 03, 2010 10:42 pm
Venturo
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 5:22 pm
Posts: 33
@ejolly0001, no that was in littleton some time later. He is in Denver last I knew. I will never forget that guys face.
Fri Dec 03, 2010 10:44 pm
Venturo
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 5:22 pm
Posts: 33
@iporter101, thank god for that small miracle. They botched a lot of stuff I guess, but that was mostly not anything with us.
Fri Dec 03, 2010 10:45 pm
MnM
Joined: Wed May 17, 2006 9:17 pm
Posts: 8759
Location: Lincoln: "Those who deny freedom to others, deserve it not for themselves.""
Ah I see. E/D called him an alcoholic but I never realized how bad it was.
No wonder they liked so much- he sounds extremely overly-permissive. He had issues before the shooting, I'm sure afterwards really must have messed him up.
Fri Dec 03, 2010 10:52 pm
carnage_complex
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2009 11:01 pm
Posts: 472
Welcome, Venturo. Thanks for sharing your experiences with us. I just finished reading your posts in this thread, and noticed that you briefly mentioned a 'spat' that Eric and Dylan had which lasted for a day or so. It's obviously been a long time, but do you happen to remember what that 'spat' was about? Was it just some innocuous teenage thing, or something more significant? When did it happen, roughly?
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Fri Dec 03, 2010 10:59 pm
Venturo
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 5:22 pm
Posts: 33
@lporter101, I get the sceptiscm. Nothing new t m. I wish I wasn't ever there and didnt hear the freegin gun shots from the store, and take all the stupid ass calls from "funny" hillbillies in tennesee asking to buy tech nines, etc. At least if I was pretending, I wouldn't have any real memories of this crap. It's cool though. I am dealing and moving on. Every April though, I get real grumpy for a week.
Let's see what I can answer here.
As for the spat, nothing serious as I recall, but don't remember what exactly. Just a couple friends mad at each other for whatever. I think Dylan told me, but it seemed unimportant at the time. Chris and I only knew them for a couple months so not sure how long before it took place that they had the spat. Seemed unimportant, so never really committed to memory.
We talked about the prom, but don't remember everything. I thought he had a girlfriend or a date though. Funny how some of this fades but the other crap sticks like glue. I know he liked a girl at one point towards the end, but not sure what came of it.
Yes, they were bullied relentlessly.
Aside from Internet articles, I rarely read books on this. Bad enough every April having to hear about the anniversary. I commented on some female students article that was featured on msn, last year, and man talk about skeptics! Sounds like this gentleman culled together all the media info and put it together. Chris and I never consulted with anyone about this stuff, except the police, FBI, ATF. So I feel the whole story isn't out if you don't have all sides. That's why I will chat on these kinds of things every now and then.
Lol...seriously?!?! This guy said they were never bullied?!?! Ha! Then he is a hack, and only interested in making a buck! I was there! I saw the anguish they went through pretty much daily. I tried to stick up for them! We went to chase the "faggot jocks" a couple times. Where do these guys get off with that BS? That one infuriates me...cuz that isn't remotely true. Now, they did have a small clique of friends. So they were popular with them. I think we employed most of them, unfortunately. But they all seemed harmless enough, just high school kids ya know?
That leader follower crap, I have heard many times. They were friends, they had different personalities sure, different in their own ways, but not like a leader follower scenario. Hard to explain exactly but hopefully that helps.
This guy really sucks. I might read this book, but sounds like I would be reallly pissed the entire read, and I don't need that.
Apparently I disagree with cullen in every way. I worked side by side with reb way more than Dylan. We worked 5 nights a week together Dylan only worked a couple. We chatted and talked about lots of stuff, but mostly benign coworkers, life stuff. Kinda why this was a huge surprise.
Boy, really feel like I want to read this book now! Lol...I certainly am not going to purchase it though, doesn't sound like an ounce of fact so far.
Fri Dec 03, 2010 11:09 pm
Venturo
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 5:22 pm
Posts: 33
@MNM, you would think he would have been messed up. Chris and I were devastated after only two months! He put on a good show though. Did ibis interview as their boss, collected his money, etc. Smelling of beer with tears in his eyes, he made me sick. They showed him a pipe bomb they made and he "apparently" told them to take it out o there. Never reported it. Nothing. IMO, from what I knew of him, he was probably " COOL!" but I don't know that for fact. Shows you what I think of him.
Fri Dec 03, 2010 11:28 pm
Venturo
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 5:22 pm
Posts: 33
@lporter101, OMG! Thank you! I haven't ever seen these! I didn't know I could view them! Yeah they screwed up my name, probably best anyways. Also says I worked for kirgis, never would have worked for that ass!
Sat Dec 04, 2010 12:04 am
MnM
Joined: Wed May 17, 2006 9:17 pm
Posts: 8759
Location: Lincoln: "Those who deny freedom to others, deserve it not for themselves.""
"I was there! I saw the anguish they went through pretty much daily. I tried to stick up for them! We went to chase the "faggot jocks" a couple times."
What was the deal with having to chase away the jocks anyway? Would they come to the store specifically just to harass Eric and Dylan?
Also, did Eric and Dylan refer to themselves as "Reb and Vodka" a lot at Black Jack?
(Interesting note- Kirgis actually told on Eric Harris to his parents about him drinking on the job. He did give him a slight raise beforehand to try and mitigate his doing that. I also heard that he used to shoot off fireworks on the roof at night and he told them that it was "cool" and he'd deal with the cops if they arrived. Man, that guy sounds pretty slushed.)
Sat Dec 04, 2010 12:12 am
lporter101
Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2009 7:19 am
Posts: 12268
Location: The land of sour milk and rancid honey
Venturo wrote:
@lporter101, OMG! Thank you! I haven't ever seen these! I didn't know I could view them! Yeah they screwed up my name, probably best anyways. Also says I worked for kirgis, never would have worked for that ass!
You're welcome.
The 11K is available from this site:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.](You have to copy and paste the URL into your address bar.)
Your interviews begin on page 10197.
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"You see things; and you say, 'Why?' But I dream things that never were; and I say, 'Why not?'" - George Bernard Shaw
Sat Dec 04, 2010 12:14 am
Venturo
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 5:22 pm
Posts: 33
Thank you again. I had forgotten some of that. Man do I remember right now.
As for chasing the jocks away, it was like I said. They were all pissed and winded one day and came running into the store. Asked what was wrong, to which they replied "nothing, just some faggots". Of course i prodded further, and said what about these "faggots"? They replied "some faggots are fucking with us" Of course now I was curious, and being the smart ass I am, I teased them to lighten em up a bit and tell me what was going on. I said "so a bunch of faggots are picking on ya and your all upset?". They said "some faggot jocks were throwing rocks and bottles at us". I said "where?? Out back here??" reb said "just now out back." I said "let's go get em!" we ran out back and looked around, but no one was there. Then apparently they decided I deserved a bullet in the head, little pricks. Anyways, that's almost verbatim, and happened a couple times similarly. I was 26 and full of bravado then so forgive my aggressiveness, hopefully I have matured a bit.
Sat Dec 04, 2010 12:38 am
MnM
Joined: Wed May 17, 2006 9:17 pm
Posts: 8759
Location: Lincoln: "Those who deny freedom to others, deserve it not for themselves.""
"Sure thing. Kinda my mini mission to educate if you will. One thing most don't know, is that the pipe bombs were let off in a field a mile or two away from blackjack. The reason? I was late for work that day and they were forced to alter the original plan. As the manager, I was never late, except that day. WE were supposed to be shot to hell as a distraction for the police, not the pipe bombs. The FBI informed us of that little tid bit as well as one of our employees that was waiting outside that day, saw them pull up, then drive away when i wasn't there.."
From what I've read all the bombs they set off were primarily distractions to cause chaos during the shooting to "divide" the cop forces during the massacre- or something, ah, I dont' know. Anyway, a fictional story written by Dylan uses something like this as a plotline, only it's to draw the cops to the man who wants to die killing them after he's murdered his enemies. Near the end of the story says....
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] ... ht=piggies
"The man then pulled out of the duffel bag what looked to be some type of electronic device. I saw him tweak the dials, and press a button. I heard a faint, yet powerful explosion, I would have to guess about 6 miles away. Then another one occurred closer. After recalling the night many times, I finally understood that these were diversions, to attract the cops."
What exactly did the FBI tell you they thought Eric and Dylan had planned to do at Black Jack that day and how long after 4/20 did they relay this information?
Sat Dec 04, 2010 12:51 am
Venturo
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 5:22 pm
Posts: 33
The bombs were a distraction indeed. However, the real distraction was supposed to be shooting the hell out of, blackjack and us employees. Mainly Chris and me I guess. The cops told us they said that in their video(s). One of our other cooks was waiting for me in the back and saw them pull up. He said hey. They just stared and drove away. Apparently pulled around to another parking lot to prepare the pipe bombs, to blow up in a field, as I understand it and was told.
Sat Dec 04, 2010 12:58 am
MnM
Joined: Wed May 17, 2006 9:17 pm
Posts: 8759
Location: Lincoln: "Those who deny freedom to others, deserve it not for themselves.""
Hmm.... perhaps they were uncertain of shooting friends and coworkers and decided against the Black Jack part of the plan.
2 more questions....
1. To what extent did they call themselves Reb and Vodka?
2.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]Which forms of pop culture can you remember them expressing like or an interest in or expressing a hatred towards?
Sat Dec 04, 2010 1:02 am
Venturo
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 5:22 pm
Posts: 33
I will tell you this, in retrospect, those two were anything but indecisive. They had a plan and went through every part of it that they could. I was late to work..plan altered (why just shoot one 15 year old kid they hardly knew, sitting outside smoking by himself, with a locked door outside?). Eric always insisted on being called reb. Dylan wasn't as attached to the name vodka, as eric was to reb tho. I do remember him being referred to that tho. Just not all the time.
I will answer that second part later my friend. I need to get some work done and getting tired...lol. I am 38 now after all.
Sat Dec 04, 2010 1:11 am
starvosan
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2007 12:09 am
Posts: 502
Venturo wrote:
WE were supposed to be shot to hell as a distraction for the police, not the pipe bombs. The FBI informed us of that little tid bit as well as one of our employees that was waiting outside that day, saw them pull up, then drive away when i wasn't there..
Jason,
Do you know why they might have targeted BJ?
Who was that other employee who said he saw them that morning? Was it just Harris and Klebold driving one vehicle, or were there others in the cars or did they drive up in two vehicles?
Do you think it's possible Eric and Dylan were imagining being chased to work? Odd that you say it happened several times yet you never saw any evidence of anybody after them.
Sat Dec 04, 2010 1:54 am
cdeichman
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2009 5:45 am
Posts: 670
This is all fascinating. Thank you so much for taking the time to share this with people like us.
I think it is great you are offering insight to what they (mainly) Eric was like leading up to the shooting. New insight. It helps me understand this whole thing and come to terms with it a lot better (being directly affected by the moral panic it caused resulting in my being ostracized by society and mankind for the remainder of my youth).
And please, PLEASE don't feel compelled to answer anything you don't feel comfortable sharing. You owe us nothing.
Sat Dec 04, 2010 2:08 am
vau0807
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 8:02 pm
Posts: 18
@Venturo. Not doubting your word at all. It's just difficult to visualize Dylan Klebold, at least 6'2" and well-connected, being bullied during his senior year. Not impossible, but difficult to imagine. Maybe he got some splash damage from being nearby when Eric was bullied? Picking on Dylan just seems risky even for a jock.
Sat Dec 04, 2010 4:49 am
Eric and Dylan's boss
Author Message
Venturo
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 5:22 pm
Posts: 33
@vau0807, I know it is hard to envision, and to be honest I don't know how he was bullied. He was taller than me. Maybe it was something that happened for a long time, maybe before he "sprouted"? I don't really know. I don't think he was as much of the teasing as reb was. He was more outgoing, and probably was able to get along with some better, but I don't know for sure. I remember being in middle school and picking on guys much much bigger than me. It's not always about size, it is mostly a mental state. One of the reasons I wanted those two to go outside and confront their tormenters. Try to build some confidence in them to stand up for themselves. To help them not fear these people.
Sat Dec 04, 2010 11:30 am
Venturo
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 5:22 pm
Posts: 33
@cdeichman, thank you for trying to understand this. I still am. You connect with people in this life, some more than others. On a deeper level with some and really deep with others. I always liked reb, and Dylan. I felt like I was connecting with reb and that we had a chance to be friends at some point. I was 26 then and not too much older, I saw myself in him and I could relate to him as I had similar experiences growing up, just not to those extremes. I chose a path that didn't involve all the violence, but I was almost as angry as those two were inside, growing up. So it scares me to think that my path could've been similar, Eerily similar. I still feel I know why they snapped, but ultimately it is still a choice. They made theirs and I made mine. Now we all get to live with the consequences of those choices.
Sat Dec 04, 2010 11:55 am
justmythoughts
Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2010 7:42 pm
Posts: 284
Location: Good ole Kentucky
Venturo wrote:
I will tell you this, in retrospect, those two were anything but indecisive. They had a plan and went through every part of it that they could. I was late to work..plan altered (why just shoot one 15 year old kid they hardly knew, sitting outside smoking by himself, with a locked door outside?). Eric always insisted on being called reb. Dylan wasn't as attached to the name vodka, as eric was to reb tho. I do remember him being referred to that tho. Just not all the time.
I will answer that second part later my friend. I need to get some work done and getting tired...lol. I am 38 now after all.
I'm not sure about labor laws and what not from 1999 but were 15 year olds allowed to work on a school day when they should have been in school?
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Sat Dec 04, 2010 12:07 pm
Xerxes
Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2010 5:44 pm
Posts: 260
Location: US
Venturo wrote:
Well xerxes, I am not sure where that "info" comes from, but I know at work day in and day out, they would refer to him, among others as a "faggot". They played rammstein DAILY. I don't mind the band, but I heard more than I cared for day and day out. So take that for what it's worth.
The information comes from Sue Klebold's interview with police. There was some extensive discussion of it.
Sat Dec 04, 2010 1:02 pm
Venturo
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 5:22 pm
Posts: 33
I was wondering if someone would ask that. This kid was on work release. Nice guy, but a hooligan no less.
Sat Dec 04, 2010 1:33 pm
Venturo
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 5:22 pm
Posts: 33
@xerxes, I don't know about you, but if my mom was asked what music I listened to, I am sure she would pick the most popular rock group of the time. I am only telling you what I knew and heard. Maybe they were closet manson fans?
Sat Dec 04, 2010 1:35 pm
Xerxes
Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2010 5:44 pm
Posts: 260
Location: US
Venturo wrote:
The bombs were a distraction indeed. However, the real distraction was supposed to be shooting the hell out of, blackjack and us employees. Mainly Chris and me I guess. The cops told us they said that in their video(s). One of our other cooks was waiting for me in the back and saw them pull up. He said hey. They just stared and drove away. Apparently pulled around to another parking lot to prepare the pipe bombs, to blow up in a field, as I understand it and was told.
I could be wrong, but I don't think this ever showed up in any of the reports though. So, either the FBI was just pulling your chain to see if they could get any information, or it was a theory of theirs that didn't pan out, or something else.
Thinking about it, I really can't see them shooting up BJP. Planting a bomb with a timer is a diversionary tactic. Pulling out guns and shooting a place/people is not diversionary.
Sat Dec 04, 2010 1:38 pm
Xerxes
Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2010 5:44 pm
Posts: 260
Location: US
Venturo wrote:
@xerxes, I don't know about you, but if my mom was asked what music I listened to, I am sure she would pick the most popular rock group of the time.
I think you are missing the context. The following is a report, but you can find the actual interview in the 11k.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] ... rview.html
Quote:
The Klebold's said that Dylan had a Nine Inch Nails poster and another poster of a woman in a leopard bikini. The Klebold's said that Dylan also had three sports pictures regarding baseball and also had some street signs. Mrs. Klebold indicated that Dylan had a poster of Marilyn Manson and that she asked him about it, and in particular asked him what it meant. Dylan had told her that it didn't mean anything and that he didn't really listen to lyrics of Marilyn Manson music, however, did listen to the music.
Dylan had a MM poster on his wall.
Sat Dec 04, 2010 1:45 pm
Venturo
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 5:22 pm
Posts: 33
Well, I can tell you only what I knew from the work environment and what they said there. I haven't been to their houses or rooms, or in their cars etc. I only knew what they said and played at work...tool, rammstein (constantly) and that they said manson was gay. So frankly I will just leave that out there and others can decide whether manson was their band or not. maybe Dylan liked him an reb didn't? Dont know really. My work experiences are all I really know for sure to go on...with all the false mixed information I come across. For instance, the police interview didn't spell my name correctly, seems small, but really is quite important. They all said I worked for kirgis for a year! Huge error! Means a whole different ball game if that was the case. So facts arent always accurate...even by the police.
Sat Dec 04, 2010 1:52 pm
Subject: Eric and Dylan's Boss (originally from the other forum) 
Fri Mar 29, 2013 11:31 pm
