Better Liar

Both of the boys were ace liars. Who do you think was better at keeping things under wraps?

The obvious answer is Dylan since so many people seemed to be shocked at his participation in NBK and -- to this day -- can't believe sweet DK could be a killer. However, Eric was able to construct and hide an arsenal in his room and kept the parents, teachers, cops, and diversion people off his ass long enough to follow through on NBK and he had to evade more scrutiny than Dylan, particularly in view of the Brooks Brown incident, etc.

Your thoughts?

Again, its hard to say.

People will say Dylan because he was the greater surprise for most people for having been involved.

But I don't think it was anything as far as skills with lying goes. Its ratehr a case of difference in personalities between him and Eric. I don't think Dylan put any effort into attempting to seem meek and quiet in public - that obviously was the natural way for him to behave in public. He was like that as a kid too.

I think it best shows in the hitmen for hire - Dylan wants to sound loud and angry, but obviously is making a bad attempt at it. If it was my actor in my film and was supposed to seem angry, I'd have him repeat the scene again. He's really doign a poor show.

Te angry shouting Dylan in the library, as well as the meek, sullen Dylan in 99.9% of his life are the same person and imho both  behaviors came naturally to him in said settings.

Eric had imho both a greater need to lie about himself and also both a greater capacity for it. Eric did stuff and had to lie to get himself out of the mess he would make. Dylan didn't need to lie, he just kept quiet and behaved like he always did.

^^^

Dylan was not meek and quiet in public, really. He was actually very loud, and hyperactive with his co workers at Black Jack Pizza. He was very noisy with his friends, and many said he had an "addicting laugh", and he was very fun to be around. He sure as hell wasn't quiet with his friends. Devon said it herself, "People liked Dylan". He was shy around people he didn't know, sure...but so was Eric. Eric wasn't any different. Many described Eric as a "shy, and good kid". Eric was also very "weird" when it came to women, and didn't speak much to them on their dates. Just look at how Eric was in, "Eric in Columbine". He seems very socially awkward to me in this video, even around his friends.

Personally, I still think Dylan was the better liar of the two. Eric admitted to homicidal and suicidal thoughts in the Diversion files. He outright stated that he thought of suicide more than twice. Dylan didn't write any of that. I forgot which he checked off, but it was neither suicide or homicide. Also, as I said to you in the other videos don't take them too seriously. It's two kids acting, and while some people want to see a connection in their videos to how they were in the shooting they won't find much. Eric was just as goofy as Dylan in the videos. If you look closely at the H4H video, Eric while sounding more intimidating than Dylan is trying not to laugh if you catch a few glimpses quickly while his eyes are bulging out.

I think Dylan was the better liar of the two because he never admitted anything to anyone. He hid his depression and anger for years without his mask ever falling off. He never spoke of their plans to anyone besides throwing out small hints here and there. Honestly, no matter what anyone says personally I believe Eric was trying to get something from the Diversion files. He admitted to homicidal thoughts! That's enough evidence there to show the kid wanted help, even if it was the beginning. Maybe as the times went on Eric realized he was a lost cause, and no one helped him so he decided to give them the finger, and just play it off while continuing to being nice. Dylan basically gave Juvenile Diversion the finger the entire time. Anyway, remember that everyone was clueless that Dylan was even involved in something like this. Most of the students in that school who knew Eric Harris knew right from the get-go he was the shooter.

Eric wasn't as good of a liar as people think. He got caught by his parents multiple times with a pipe bomb. His room left a lot of his plans all over the plan. He stupidly gave Green Mountain Guns his home phone number, and he just got lucky his father didn't ask any questions on when they said, "Your clips are in". He said multiple times to his friends he was going to blow up the school (we don't have any evidence of Dylan saying this besides once saying to Chis Morris if it would be fun to shoot kids from the soccer field). He uploaded his plans the day before 4/20 on the school server. He wasn't this genius mastermind that people like Dave Cullen believe. He got lucky many times, and part of me wants to think he truly wanted to get caught with the information we have...especially from the Basement Tapes on how much remorse he shown than Dylan.

The difference between Cho and Dylan is Cho was considered a very shy, and disturbing young man who was an outcast (which is more prolonged to being a school shooter), while Dylan had a lot of friends, went to prom, girls had crushes on him, he was a happy guy on the outside, and no one could have thought he would've done what he did.

They both made stupid mistakes. Dylan skipped some diversions tuff or didn't show up or his work, he wrote a "fuck you" essay on time management in a silly font just to piss teh cops off. He could have easily have been busted and his diversion not terminated, probably even have police look into his life in detail if he had been black or from poor rural white family. He got off lucky because of his family status.

Also Dylan was much more careless than Eric in class, made that whole "lone man strikes with absolute rage" thing, which even the blind CHS teachers took seriously and called the parents iirc. Again, he got off lucky. Eric took greater care from diveersion on, even when he made the (in)famous dream session in his psychology class, he was carefull enough to portray himself as a victim in said dream.

So to sum it all up, they both did stupid stuff at soem point and I don't think either wanted to eb caught or reached out for help, its just that they've been careless.

Good points...

More food for thought:

Eric actually told people repeatedly that he was going to blow up the school. Columbine was so full of tall tales and liars that no-one even paid much attention to him. Eric seemed to speak the truth often, even to authority. Dylan not so much.

The Peggy Dodd incident is interesting in this context. Dylan was called in to speak to Richard Long and called Dodd a "bitch." In response, Long banned him from the computers for life. Dylan responded "You know what? It doesn't matter anymore. It doesn't matter."  

That was an outright threat that the teacher should have caught.

I'm not sure who I vote for as the better liar. I like hearing what others have to say.

Gustopoet2 wrote:

The Peggy Dodd incident is interesting in this context. Dylan was called in to speak to Richard Long and called Dodd a "bitch." In response, Long banned him from the computers for life. Dylan responded "You know what? It doesn't matter anymore. It doesn't matter."  

That was an outright threat that the teacher should have caught.

I wouldn't see it as a threat to be honest. Its just a teenager saying: "Well yeah, I don't care about your punishment at all big man". Every kid or adolescent said something like that after being punished.

- "You are being grounded!"
- "As if I care. It doesn't matter."

Seems familiar?

Sabratha wrote:

Gustopoet2 wrote:

The Peggy Dodd incident is interesting in this context. Dylan was called in to speak to Richard Long and called Dodd a "bitch." In response, Long banned him from the computers for life. Dylan responded "You know what? It doesn't matter anymore. It doesn't matter."  

That was an outright threat that the teacher should have caught.

I wouldn't see it as a threat to be honest. Its just a teenager saying: "Well yeah, I don't care about your punishment at all big man". Every kid or adolescent said something like that after being punished.

- "You are being grounded!"
- "As if I care. It doesn't matter."

Seems familiar?

I agree, its a bit too vague of a statement to be a real red flag.

"The Peggy Dodd incident is interesting in this context. Dylan was called in to speak to Richard Long and called Dodd a "bitch." In response, Long banned him from the computers for life. Dylan responded "You know what? It doesn't matter anymore. It doesn't matter." "

I would have took it as "I don't care" especially if it was near the end of the year, it would have been more like a "I'm outta here soon anyways so it don't matter"

deathmedic wrote:

"The Peggy Dodd incident is interesting in this context. Dylan was called in to speak to Richard Long and called Dodd a "bitch." In response, Long banned him from the computers for life. Dylan responded "You know what? It doesn't matter anymore. It doesn't matter." "

I would have took it as "I don't care" especially if it was near the end of the year, it would have been more like a "I'm outta here soon anyways so it don't matter"

Yep.

Dylan had already been in trouble for hacking the computers and making threats.  He had been reported for threatening to kill a special needs student. He has been arrested for the van break in.

He called Peggy  Dodd a "bitch" and then made reference to how it "didn't matter any more." I'm not saying Long should have called the police; I am saying he should have probed a bit with additional questions.

"What do you mean by that exactly?"

Two or three well-placed questions may have caused Dylan to tip his hand and say something more explicit. My way of saying Dylan's facade did have cracks in it and they were often the same kind of cracks that caused Eric's facade to slip: mainly the urge to make threats (veiled or not) and to gain power through the intention to commit NBK as well as NBK itself.

Gustopoet2 wrote:

Two or three well-placed questions may have caused Dylan to tip his hand and say something more explicit. My way of saying Dylan's facade did have cracks in it and they were often the same kind of cracks that caused Eric's facade to slip: mainly the urge to make threats (veiled or not) and to gain power through the intention to commit NBK as well as NBK itself.

Yep. Its the "amazing foreshadowing" thing. I am sure its the same thing that caused them to make the "aiming invisible guns" gesture at the 1999 class photo.

I'm sure they got off at it. Showing the finger to the rest of the world and nobody even noticing. They thought people are dumb sheep and they just reinforced their belief through these acts.

Eric in particlar seems to have wanted to leave mental scars on people. I think he deliberately started some conversations or did some things (the dream in psychology class) so that people would later torment themselves by asking: "What could I have done better to stop this?". That was one way of leaving "a lasting image" and having fun in the last months of his life.

Eric was like that - recall the "ghosts" rant?

Sabratha wrote:

Gustopoet2 wrote:

Two or three well-placed questions may have caused Dylan to tip his hand and say something more explicit. My way of saying Dylan's facade did have cracks in it and they were often the same kind of cracks that caused Eric's facade to slip: mainly the urge to make threats (veiled or not) and to gain power through the intention to commit NBK as well as NBK itself.

Yep. Its the "amazing foreshadowing" thing. I am sure its the same thing that caused them to make the "aiming invisible guns" gesture at the 1999 class photo.

I'm sure they got off at it. Showing the finger to the rest of the world and nobody even noticing. They thought people are dumb sheep and they just reinforced their belief through these acts.

Eric in particular seems to have wanted to leave mental scars on people. I think he deliberately started some conversations or did some things (the dream in psychology class) so that people would later torment themselves by asking: "What could I have done better to stop this?". That was one way of leaving "a lasting image" and having fun in the last months of his life.

Eric was like that - recall the "ghosts" rant?

Yes, I agree. I think this was the cruelest aspect of NBK. I think that is why Dylan spared Evan Todd, forex. I think Eric also deliberately tried to wound and paralyze people when he shot them rather than kill them outright.

People always talk about the "13" victims, but those who were seriously wounded, lightly wounded, or just witness to the carnage suffered a lot and not just physically.

Side note: Wally Lamb's The Hour I First Believed is an overwritten slog, but it is very good at capturing (in fiction) the PTSD aspect of the survivors of NBK.

lol wrote:

Personally, I still think Dylan was the better liar of the two. Eric admitted to homicidal and suicidal thoughts in the Diversion files. He outright stated that he thought of suicide more than twice. Dylan didn't write any of that. I forgot which he checked off, but it was neither suicide or homicide. Also, as I said to you in the other videos don't take them too seriously. It's two kids acting, and while some people want to see a connection in their videos to how they were in the shooting they won't find much. Eric was just as goofy as Dylan in the videos. If you look closely at the H4H video, Eric while sounding more intimidating than Dylan is trying not to laugh if you catch a few glimpses quickly while his eyes are bulging out.

I think Dylan was the better liar of the two because he never admitted anything to anyone. He hid his depression and anger for years without his mask ever falling off. He never spoke of their plans to anyone besides throwing out small hints here and there. Honestly, no matter what anyone says personally I believe Eric was trying to get something from the Diversion files. He admitted to homicidal thoughts! That's enough evidence there to show the kid wanted help, even if it was the beginning. Maybe as the times went on Eric realized he was a lost cause, and no one helped him so he decided to give them the finger, and just play it off while continuing to being nice. Dylan basically gave Juvenile Diversion the finger the entire time. Anyway, remember that everyone was clueless that Dylan was even involved in something like this. Most of the students in that school who knew Eric Harris knew right from the get-go he was the shooter.

Eric wasn't as good of a liar as people think. He got caught by his parents multiple times with a pipe bomb. His room left a lot of his plans all over the plan. He stupidly gave Green Mountain Guns his home phone number, and he just got lucky his father didn't ask any questions on when they said, "Your clips are in". He said multiple times to his friends he was going to blow up the school (we don't have any evidence of Dylan saying this besides once saying to Chis Morris if it would be fun to shoot kids from the soccer field). He uploaded his plans the day before 4/20 on the school server. He wasn't this genius mastermind that people like Dave Cullen believe. He got lucky many times, and part of me wants to think he truly wanted to get caught with the information we have...especially from the Basement Tapes on how much remorse he shown than Dylan.

Great post. Do you think these differences between the two boys shows that Dylan was more committed to NBK than Eric? Or maybe even hint at the possibility that Dylan's influence was a primary reason Eric went through with the attack?

Gustopoet2 wrote:

lol wrote:

Personally, I still think Dylan was the better liar of the two. Eric admitted to homicidal and suicidal thoughts in the Diversion files. He outright stated that he thought of suicide more than twice. Dylan didn't write any of that. I forgot which he checked off, but it was neither suicide or homicide. Also, as I said to you in the other videos don't take them too seriously. It's two kids acting, and while some people want to see a connection in their videos to how they were in the shooting they won't find much. Eric was just as goofy as Dylan in the videos. If you look closely at the H4H video, Eric while sounding more intimidating than Dylan is trying not to laugh if you catch a few glimpses quickly while his eyes are bulging out.

I think Dylan was the better liar of the two because he never admitted anything to anyone. He hid his depression and anger for years without his mask ever falling off. He never spoke of their plans to anyone besides throwing out small hints here and there. Honestly, no matter what anyone says personally I believe Eric was trying to get something from the Diversion files. He admitted to homicidal thoughts! That's enough evidence there to show the kid wanted help, even if it was the beginning. Maybe as the times went on Eric realized he was a lost cause, and no one helped him so he decided to give them the finger, and just play it off while continuing to being nice. Dylan basically gave Juvenile Diversion the finger the entire time. Anyway, remember that everyone was clueless that Dylan was even involved in something like this. Most of the students in that school who knew Eric Harris knew right from the get-go he was the shooter.

Eric wasn't as good of a liar as people think. He got caught by his parents multiple times with a pipe bomb. His room left a lot of his plans all over the plan. He stupidly gave Green Mountain Guns his home phone number, and he just got lucky his father didn't ask any questions on when they said, "Your clips are in". He said multiple times to his friends he was going to blow up the school (we don't have any evidence of Dylan saying this besides once saying to Chis Morris if it would be fun to shoot kids from the soccer field). He uploaded his plans the day before 4/20 on the school server. He wasn't this genius mastermind that people like Dave Cullen believe. He got lucky many times, and part of me wants to think he truly wanted to get caught with the information we have...especially from the Basement Tapes on how much remorse he shown than Dylan.

Great post. Do you think these differences between the two boys shows that Dylan was more committed to NBK than Eric? Or maybe even hint at the possibility that Dylan's influence was a primary reason Eric went through with the attack?

Personally, it is very hard to tell. Dylan's journal shows he is still committed to NBK, but he has other options (suicide, and people other than Eric). To me, it seems like Eric was his back up. If we look closely at the journals you can read how Eric is always there saying, 'Me and V this', 'Me and V that'. But If we look at Dylan's journal...he wasn't even 100% committed to going NBK with Eric till January 1999. I said this on the old board, and to this day I will still believe this: Eric needed Dylan more than Dylan needed Eric. Dylan basically used Eric. Also, just because Eric bought most of the weapons, ammo, made most of the bombs, etc does not mean Eric was more committed to NBK. Dylan was just damn lazy. He always was lazy. Look at his shitty grades for instance. He was always used to people helping him, or doing something for him (See: Robyn Anderson in Calculus). Also, I think what people forget here is Dylan was unemployed for almost a year. After he quit Black Jack Pizza when the boss gave him shit about bringing a pipe bomb in Dec '97, he quit, and if I recall I think he only had a grocery job a little while after (Albertson's?), and it didn't last long. Dylan wasn't employed again till December '98 when BlackJack Pizza desperately needed employees.

So the fact that Dylan still at least put something into the plan is pretty astounding because he was basically flat out broke. Eric, on the other hand kept his job at BlackJack Pizza + got a second job at Tortilla Wraps for the summer.

Eric feels as if this is something he "has" to do. He "has" to prove to the world. He has to "kick start society". We know Dylan wrote about the plans first of "NBK". First, I think Dylan came up with that name, and second I think Dylan maybe played around the idea with Eric for a while, especially after the Van-Break In. Eric caught on to this, and the plan started. Part of me still believes even if they were planning since April '98, it wasn't exactly "real" till November - December '98 when they bought guns. Eric said it himself..."The Point of No Return".

Eric comes off remorseful in the tapes. Unfortunately...we may never see it, so we can't be 100% sure if he truly was remorseful. I take what Fuselier says with a grain of salt. But if we read the transcripts he kept apologizing over, and over, and over as if he truly wanted to back out in the end. The thing that strikes me the most is this:

Eric: "Susan, sorry. Under different circumstances it would've been a lot different. I want you to have that fly CD."

Eric: (eventually) "That's it. Sorry. Goodbye."

I like how the officer went into detail with that as if Eric gave a long pause before finally saying goodbye, and it was said that Dylan was getting restless, and was snapping his fingers at Eric at that point. It makes me wonder...I think they were both committed, but IMO I think Eric was more likely to have 2nd doubts by this point.

Dylan had doubts himself since he even said he couldn't believe going with Eric would be his final option. He also wrote a lover letter to a girl stating that if she loved him, he'll find a way to survive. But by that point in March - April I think Dylan was fully committed, and was anxious to leave these zombies.

Eric was a better deliberate liar. He did it for fun and to make himself feel better. It gave him something to be better than everyone at. And in his eyes it played into his view of Natural Selection. He could lie to others which he felt gave him a better survival mechanism. Dylan was more selective about what he told people. In a way he was a great liar. At the same time though some people are just naturally private. That doesn't mean they're good at or enjoy lying.

Eric needed Dylan a lot more emotionally then the other way around. I agree Eric was a friend AND a pawn for Dylan to complete his goal of dying. It really adds a sad tinge to their friendship when viewed this way. Eric wasnt even Dylan's first choice to go NBK with. Eric truly was a backup plan in Dylans eyes when it came to carrying out the shooting.

lol wrote:

Dylan had doubts himself since he even said he couldn't believe going with Eric would be his final option. He also wrote a lover letter to a girl stating that if she loved him, he'll find a way to survive. But by that point in March - April I think Dylan was fully committed, and was anxious to leave these zombies.

Some very good points made in this post, thanks.

Nirvana92 wrote:

Eric needed Dylan a lot more emotionally then the other way around. I agree Eric was a friend AND a pawn for Dylan to complete his goal of dying. It really adds a sad tinge to their friendship when viewed this way. Eric wasnt even Dylan's first choice to go NBK with. Eric truly was a backup plan in Dylans eyes when it came to carrying out the shooting.

Agree 100%. I think Eric was in many ways a rebound friend for Dylan who felt he'd "lost" his best bud, Zach.

Yep, although I think Dylan was being very naive in thinking he could get a girl to go NBK with him (female spree killers are very rare). Heck, he scored a one in a milion for finding anyone willing to go through with this.

Spree killers are almost always lone wolves some by choice, but many probably because they can never find anyone willing to go along.

I have to disagree Nirvana on Eric lying for the fun of it. He clearly states in his journal that he lies to "keep his own ass out of the water".

lol wrote:

I have to disagree Nirvana on Eric lying for the fun of it. He clearly states in his journal that he lies to "keep his own ass out of the water".

Right. And he also said he hated liars. Dylan didn't seem to like hypocrisy and lying in others, either. Interesting point of hypocrisy for both of them and one on which NBK depended for its very existence.

Gustopoet2 wrote:

lol wrote:

I have to disagree Nirvana on Eric lying for the fun of it. He clearly states in his journal that he lies to "keep his own ass out of the water".

Right. And he also said he hated liars. Dylan didn't seem to like hypocrisy and lying in others, either. Interesting point of hypocrisy for both of them and one on which NBK depended for its very existence.  

That, and Dylan apparently didn't like "laid back" people...yet he himself was very laid back.

And my favorite irony of them all is Eric hating dirty people...yet his best friend (till death) wasn't the cleanest person on the block.

lol wrote:

And my favorite irony of them all is Eric hating dirty people...yet his best friend (till death) wasn't the cleanest person on the block.

Right! And also Eric didn't like lazy people or people who were late or bad drivers. Dylan was all of these.

By contrast Dylan hated authority figures and Eric was a power-hungry, "my word is law..." type guy.

Sabratha wrote:

Spree killers are almost always lone wolves some by choice, but many probably because they can never find anyone willing to go along.

That and the fact that it is the loneliness and isolation that often makes the key difference in whether someone crosses the line from cathartic fantasy to lethal action.

Eric: "Susan, sorry. Under different circumstances it would've been a lot different. I want you to have that fly CD."

Eric: (eventually) "That's it. Sorry. Goodbye."

That is an extremely telling bit of dialogue isn't it? A strange thing to be worried about when you are getting ready to commit mass murder and suicide. He does seem reluctant to me, also.

Yeah bizarre pre-mortem housekeeping. However it looks and sounds less weird and more plausible on video than in the transcript.

"Under different circumstances it would've been a lot different."

This is so inarticulate for Eric Harris. It sounds as though he is just filling in a blank because he has nothing more dramatic to say before he goes off to murder his schoolmates and blow his brains out.

He was either stalling a little or trying to show the world that he still had feelings.

Either way, the melodramatic whimper of it all makes me sad.

Gustopoet2 wrote:

"Under different circumstances it would've been a lot different."

This is so inarticulate for Eric Harris. It sounds as though he is just filling in a blank because he has nothing more dramatic to say before he goes off to murder his schoolmates and blow his brains out.

Frankly sounds obvious and pretty clear, given you know who she was and what she later wrote to him. Its a: "I like you and if it wasn't for this attack I'm gonna make, I believe we could have had a relationship". He is stumbling only because he prolly wants to avoid any grisly or direct references to the killing.

It's the absence of any true relationship w/ Susan as well as the redundancy of Eric's diction (totally out of character)that is the telling point here. It is a flat, empty statement that is disproportionately meek and superfulous given the nature of the circumstances.

And why on earth would you suggest that Eric Harris wanted to avoid "grisly reference (s) to the killing?"  Really???  Yes, he seems so reluctant to discuss grisly details before....