Jason Secor, or someone claiming to be him, once posted on the old board.
I have omitted the usernames, aside from my own.
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Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 5:12 pm
Jason
Hello, my name is Jason Secor. Yes, the same from this very black jack pizza. I am amazed people are still talking about this 11 years later! I live it every day so I know why I still think of it. So this forum is for a columbine RPG game? If so, I am dumbfounded by people. Trust me the real thing ain't so fun. The hurt it caused all of us SUCKED. Anyways, came on here like I do once in awhile in articles etc, when people start wondering what really happened etc. Try to dispell with the myths and such...cuz frankly almost nobody has ever gotten this stuff right.,...apparently this game didn't either, at least partly, with Marilyn mansion (cd?). Whats that about? Both reb and Dylan hated marilyn manson and referred to him as a "faggot", their words, not mine. So anyways, hopefully there is some education to all this considering the crap that went down. Jason.
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Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 5:21 pm
User 1
Hi Jason, yes this is a forum based on a game. But the majority of people here really are here for research, finding out what happened really and why it did happen.
Besides the Marilyn Manson thing, what else has the media gotten wrong?
Mind telling us about your experience.
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Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 6:20 pm
User 2
Dylan reportedly has a MM poster in his room, and told his mother at least that he liked the music (if not the lyrics).
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Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 6:21 pm
Jason
Sure thing. Kinda my mini mission to educate if you will. One thing most don't know, is that the pipe bombs were let off in a field a mile or two away from blackjack. The reason? I was late for work that day and they were forced to alter the original plan. As the manager, I was never late, except that day. WE were supposed to be shot to hell as a distraction for the police, not the pipe bombs. The FBI informed us of that little tid bit as well as one of our employees that was waiting outside that day, saw them pull up, then drive away when i wasn't there.. Great little bit of guilt to live with huh? Needless to say, I don't like being late for anything now. Before people say "you were lucky cuz they woulda shot you!" I wasn't a high school kid and certainly had little fear, guns or not, I might have been able to talk em down or outright stop em. Pipe dream? Maybe, but I am the one left to wonder if I could have stopped em. So I blame myself for being late. I am not any kind of Nancy, but I certainly should have sought counseling. Anyways, the ATF, FBI, and just about every three letter agency you can imagine searched blackjack and interviewed us. Fun stuff. You don't find many articles from Chris or myself because it would've been blood money in our minds, and believe me, there was monies offered! A lot of the kids did interviews, but mostly from a friends perspective, not ultra objective in my opinion. The only real interview we did was with the wall street journal. It was free to them, and was an article based on how a business survives such a crisis. It saved that place. Until that time, no one knew our role, and many thought we were the kingpins...ridiculous! The police and FBI were the only ones who knew we were victims as well. They gathered some of their bomb making materials from blackjack. Such as the glass jugs for hot sauce. They would break them up to use as shrapnel. The klebolds are wonderful people. At least from what I knew. Didn't speak with Harris family too much. They kinda disappeared afterward. Reb was an extremely intelligent kid, quiet, but smart, and likable! We actually wanted to promote him to shift manager! Can you believe it?! Dylan was more outgoing and laughed more, but seemed like a good kid. There were NO signs, i dont care what all the talking heads say, i worked next to them both DAILY. I am no expert, but they were no different to me or many others from what i can recall. They loved rammstein. Hated manson. They did idolize hitler and the nazi ideal. For a couple tormented and apparently unstable kids, they couldnt have picked a worst role model. The "jocks" did indeed torment those two...on more occasions then most anybody knew or would admit. They threw rocks and bottles at them etc. Aside from the mental and emotional abuse as well. While there is absolutely no excuse for what transpired, they became a product of their environment. I liken it to this analogy: you cage a dog and poke it with a stick repeatedly and daily, it will become vicious. That is probably the single best summary of what happened. I liked the same music they did, I was angry at life growing up, I played violent video games, I watched violent movies, yet I didn't go shoot up a lot of innocent kids. I was much more social than reb or Dylan growing up and at least didn't get the repeated "torture" if you will that they received. Some of these incidents even transpired as they were coming to work a couple times. I tried to stick up for them, but real or imaginary, I never was able to confront anyone near the store. So I had to go on their word. So there is a quick synopsis. Feel free to ask more if you like. I am happy to answer what I can and what I know. Jason
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Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 6:23 pm
Jason
Well User 2, I am not sure where that "info" comes from, but I know at work day in and day out, they would refer to him, among others as a "faggot". They played rammstein DAILY. I don't mind the band, but I heard more than I cared for day and day out. So take that for what it's worth.
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Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 6:53 pm
LPorter101
Jason, have you read Dave Cullen's Columbine? If so, can you comment on Cullen's characterization of the two killers?
Cullen writes that Eric got "lots and lots of chicks," and that he "scored" with a 23-year-old woman named Brenda Parker.
(At first, Parker told the police that she and Eric went out a few times, but then she admitted that she made the whole thing up.)
Cullen also writes that Dylan was scared of Eric.
Did Eric and Dylan ever talk about the things that happened at school? Did they ever mention anything about "ketchup" or "tampons?"
(There are reports that the jocks threw ketchup and tampons at them in the cafeteria.)
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Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 7:43 pm
User 3
Do you have any proof you are who you say you are? I'm not trying to say your lying but anyone can make an account and claim to be someone.
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Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 7:54 pm
User 4
Hey, welcome to the board Jason. I'm sorry it was so tough on you.
Columbine seems to have hurt everyone involved. I know at least two of their friends became alcoholics out of shame and guilt, and one of their jock tormentors took to shooting up meth.
As for Blackjack today... the location appeared to close a few years after. I guess the shooting had a big negative impact. Today a karate studio fills where it once was.
But, ya know, E/D loved hanging at Funplex but nobody's held that place "accountable". I think it's sad that anyone would view Blackjack negatively because of what happened.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]Also, just out of curiosity, do you know whatever happened to Kirgis? He seems like a nice guy and Eric and Dylan liked him so much that they even spoke kind words about him in their basement videos before the massacre.
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Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 8:15 pm
Jason
Iporter101, no I have not read that book. I was asked to consult on a book with someone about 2 weeks after all this, and at that time, we were and still are utterly disgusted with any media folks. Maybe same person? Not sure. They are bottom feeders. Anyways, they didn't mention ketchup and tampons specifically, they were repeatedly hurt and upset by things at school, But whenever I tried to inquire, they would clam up and refer to them as "faggots", which is what they pretty much called everything they didnt like. I do know this though, one day they both came to work out of breath and upset. I asked why. They said that a bunch of jocks were throwing rocks and bottles at them. We ran out back to nobody there. This happened more than once. I don't remember eric(reb) being a chick magnet. That sounds somewha far fetched, as these two were in more of a clique than anything (trench coat mafia thing). Dylan was NOT scared of reb. That is ridiculous. Those two were pretty much inseparable. The had one spat for a day or two, and I don't recall Dylan running away or cowerin in a corne by any stretch. A coupl of peas in a pod for sure.
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Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 8:20 pm
Jason
User 3, I am not sure how, other than these details, to prove to you, I am who I say. I obviously can't post my social sec. Num. Have run across skeptics before. Some think it's for attention etc, but I assure you, I didn't want any money or attention then or now. Only to let people know what actually was going on. Maybe someone smarter than me can figure it out. It is somewhat therapeutic to talk to others though so that is one other reason, I poke my head out of my shell with this every now and then.
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Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 8:23 pm
User 3
I'm in no way trying to insult you or call you a liar i was just curious. I'm not saying you aren't who you're saying you are but you never know, ya know? I guess we'll just have to take your word for it.
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Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 8:30 pm
Jason
User 4, holy crap! Now here is someone who knows some stuff! Yes I do know where kirgis is. You wouldn't believe where either. Frankly, I don't like the guy. He knew more of the BS than Chris or I would ever have tolerated. He was a bad influence, and frankly he should've been prosecuted for his apathy! sorry if he is you or a friend of yours, but his negligence and irresponsibility led to all this being undiscovered until it was too late...IMO. I Dont think he recognized me, but I ran into him a few years ago, and he was still there last year. Don't know if I should say where, because it could make me liable, bad mouthing him and all. Let's just say a "predominate sandwich making chain in Denver". I stayed with Chris and black jack for only a short time. Couldn't take the pizza biz after that any more. I told Chris I would help build it back unto where we were, than I had to move on. It took a couple months of ass bustin but we got it there. Chris moved to Pennsylvania with his family. Poor guy. One of the nicest guys and friends I ever worked with. Wrong tome wrong place.
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Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 8:32 pm
LPorter101
Quote: Have run across skeptics before.
It's human nature to be somewhat skeptical.
Still, I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt. I'm very interested to hear what you have to say.
Quote: The had one spat for a day or two,
Do you remember when it was - how long before 4/20?
Do you remember what it was about?
Did Eric ever talk about trying to get a date for the prom?
Did he ever talk about girls at all?
So you would say that Eric and Dylan were bullied on a constant basis?
The reason why I ask you about Dave Cullen's book is because it's the most popular one out there, by far.
He has said that they were not bullied at all - that they were actually pretty popular around the school.
He definitely makes Eric out to be the leader, and Dylan the follower.
The thing is that *a lot* of people have read his book, and now believe that Eric was this swaggering ladies' man and that Dylan was this sad little guy who followed him around.
(Well, obviously Dylan wasn't *little*, but you know what I mean.)
So your perspective is different from Cullen's. Very interesting.
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Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 8:47 pm
Quote: I am not sure how, other than these details, to prove to you, I am who I say. I obviously can't post my social sec. Num.
LPorter101
Some of the police interviews (available online in the 11K) *do* include some people's Social Security numbers, believe it or not.
Your number is *not* available, so you can rest easy about that.
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Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 9:21 pm
User 5
I wonder if it was the sandwich shop that was the scene of a double murder...?
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Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 9:26 pm
User 4
Well I don't know Kirgis personally. But I always thought he was cool since he was pretty much the -only- adult figure in E/D's lives they praised and had kind words for in the basement tapes besides their parents. If anything they needed more people who were nice to them.
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Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 9:42 pm
Jason
User 4, he had kind words, true, but he did know stuff that kids should not be doing...and HE DID NOTHING! Except drink his beer in the store in front of those kids at the very least. Kind words or not I really disliked him after that. The place was a disaster when we came in. Firs time I saw it he offered me a beer...some business model huh?
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Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 9:44 pm
Jason
User 5, no that was in littleton some time later. He is in Denver last I knew. I will never forget that guys face.
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Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 9:52 pm
User 4
Ah I see. E/D called him an alcoholic but I never realized how bad it was.
No wonder they liked so much- he sounds extremely overly-permissive. He had issues before the shooting, I'm sure afterwards really must have messed him up.
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Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 9:59 pm
User 6
Welcome, Venturo. Thanks for sharing your experiences with us. I just finished reading your posts in this thread, and noticed that you briefly mentioned a 'spat' that Eric and Dylan had which lasted for a day or so. It's obviously been a long time, but do you happen to remember what that 'spat' was about? Was it just some innocuous teenage thing, or something more significant? When did it happen, roughly?
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Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 10:09 pm
Jason
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], I get the sceptiscm. Nothing new t m. I wish I wasn't ever there and didnt hear the freegin gun shots from the store, and take all the stupid ass calls from "funny" hillbillies in tennesee asking to buy tech nines, etc. At least if I was pretending, I wouldn't have any real memories of this crap. It's cool though. I am dealing and moving on. Every April though, I get real grumpy for a week.
Let's see what I can answer here.
As for the spat, nothing serious as I recall, but don't remember what exactly. Just a couple friends mad at each other for whatever. I think Dylan told me, but it seemed unimportant at the time. Chris and I only knew them for a couple months so not sure how long before it took place that they had the spat. Seemed unimportant, so never really committed to memory.
We talked about the prom, but don't remember everything. I thought he had a girlfriend or a date though. Funny how some of this fades but the other crap sticks like glue. I know he liked a girl at one point towards the end, but not sure what came of it.
Yes, they were bullied relentlessly.
Aside from Internet articles, I rarely read books on this. Bad enough every April having to hear about the anniversary. I commented on some female students article that was featured on msn, last year, and man talk about skeptics! Sounds like this gentleman culled together all the media info and put it together. Chris and I never consulted with anyone about this stuff, except the police, FBI, ATF. So I feel the whole story isn't out if you don't have all sides. That's why I will chat on these kinds of things every now and then.
Lol...seriously?!?! This guy said they were never bullied?!?! Ha! Then he is a hack, and only interested in making a buck! I was there! I saw the anguish they went through pretty much daily. I tried to stick up for them! We went to chase the "faggot jocks" a couple times. Where do these guys get off with that BS? That one infuriates me...cuz that isn't remotely true. Now, they did have a small clique of friends. So they were popular with them. I think we employed most of them, unfortunately. But they all seemed harmless enough, just high school kids ya know?
That leader follower crap, I have heard many times. They were friends, they had different personalities sure, different in their own ways, but not like a leader follower scenario. Hard to explain exactly but hopefully that helps.
This guy really sucks. I might read this book, but sounds like I would be reallly pissed the entire read, and I don't need that.
Apparently I disagree with cullen in every way. I worked side by side with reb way more than Dylan. We worked 5 nights a week together Dylan only worked a couple. We chatted and talked about lots of stuff, but mostly benign coworkers, life stuff. Kinda why this was a huge surprise.
Boy, really feel like I want to read this book now! Lol...I certainly am not going to purchase it though, doesn't sound like an ounce of fact so far.
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Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 10:28 pm
Jason
User 4, you would think he would have been messed up. Chris and I were devastated after only two months! He put on a good show though. Did ibis interview as their boss, collected his money, etc. Smelling of beer with tears in his eyes, he made me sick. They showed him a pipe bomb they made and he "apparently" told them to take it out o there. Never reported it. Nothing. IMO, from what I knew of him, he was probably " COOL!" but I don't know that for fact. Shows you what I think of him.
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Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 11:04 pm
Jason
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], OMG! Thank you! I haven't ever seen these! I didn't know I could view them! Yeah they screwed up my name, probably best anyways. Also says I worked for kirgis, never would have worked for that ass!
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Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 11:12 pm
User 4
"I was there! I saw the anguish they went through pretty much daily. I tried to stick up for them! We went to chase the "faggot jocks" a couple times."
What was the deal with having to chase away the jocks anyway? Would they come to the store specifically just to harass Eric and Dylan?
Also, did Eric and Dylan refer to themselves as "Reb and Vodka" a lot at Black Jack?
(Interesting note- Kirgis actually told on Eric Harris to his parents about him drinking on the job. He did give him a slight raise beforehand to try and mitigate his doing that. I also heard that he used to shoot off fireworks on the roof at night and he told them that it was "cool" and he'd deal with the cops if they arrived. Man, that guy sounds pretty slushed.)
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Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 11:14 pm
Quote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], OMG! Thank you! I haven't ever seen these! I didn't know I could view them! Yeah they screwed up my name, probably best anyways. Also says I worked for kirgis, never would have worked for that ass!
LPorter101
You're welcome.
The 11K is available from this site:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.](You have to copy and paste the URL into your address bar.)
Your interviews begin on page 10197.
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Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 11:38 pm
Jason
Thank you again. I had forgotten some of that. Man do I remember right now.
As for chasing the jocks away, it was like I said. They were all pissed and winded one day and came running into the store. Asked what was wrong, to which they replied "nothing, just some faggots". Of course i prodded further, and said what about these "faggots"? They replied "some faggots are fucking with us" Of course now I was curious, and being the smart ass I am, I teased them to lighten em up a bit and tell me what was going on. I said "so a bunch of faggots are picking on ya and your all upset?". They said "some faggot jocks were throwing rocks and bottles at us". I said "where?? Out back here??" reb said "just now out back." I said "let's go get em!" we ran out back and looked around, but no one was there. Then apparently they decided I deserved a bullet in the head, little pricks. Anyways, that's almost verbatim, and happened a couple times similarly. I was 26 and full of bravado then so forgive my aggressiveness, hopefully I have matured a bit.
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Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 11:51 pm
User 4
"Sure thing. Kinda my mini mission to educate if you will. One thing most don't know, is that the pipe bombs were let off in a field a mile or two away from blackjack. The reason? I was late for work that day and they were forced to alter the original plan. As the manager, I was never late, except that day. WE were supposed to be shot to hell as a distraction for the police, not the pipe bombs. The FBI informed us of that little tid bit as well as one of our employees that was waiting outside that day, saw them pull up, then drive away when i wasn't there.."
From what I've read all the bombs they set off were primarily distractions to cause chaos during the shooting to "divide" the cop forces during the massacre- or something, ah, I dont' know. Anyway, a fictional story written by Dylan uses something like this as a plotline, only it's to draw the cops to the man who wants to die killing them after he's murdered his enemies. Near the end of the story says....
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]"The man then pulled out of the duffel bag what looked to be some type of electronic device. I saw him tweak the dials, and press a button. I heard a faint, yet powerful explosion, I would have to guess about 6 miles away. Then another one occurred closer. After recalling the night many times, I finally understood that these were diversions, to attract the cops."
What exactly did the FBI tell you they thought Eric and Dylan had planned to do at Black Jack that day and how long after 4/20 did they relay this information?
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Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 11:58 pm
Jason
The bombs were a distraction indeed. However, the real distraction was supposed to be shooting the hell out of, blackjack and us employees. Mainly Chris and me I guess. The cops told us they said that in their video(s). One of our other cooks was waiting for me in the back and saw them pull up. He said hey. They just stared and drove away. Apparently pulled around to another parking lot to prepare the pipe bombs, to blow up in a field, as I understand it and was told.
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Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 12:02 am
User 4
Hmm.... perhaps they were uncertain of shooting friends and coworkers and decided against the Black Jack part of the plan.
2 more questions....
1. To what extent did they call themselves Reb and Vodka?
2.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]Which forms of pop culture can you remember them expressing like or an interest in or expressing a hatred towards?
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Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 12:11 am
Jason
I will tell you this, in retrospect, those two were anything but indecisive. They had a plan and went through every part of it that they could. I was late to work..plan altered (why just shoot one 15 year old kid they hardly knew, sitting outside smoking by himself, with a locked door outside?). Eric always insisted on being called reb. Dylan wasn't as attached to the name vodka, as eric was to reb tho. I do remember him being referred to that tho. Just not all the time.
I will answer that second part later my friend. I need to get some work done and getting tired...lol. I am 38 now after all.
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Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 12:54 am
User 7
Jason,
Do you know why they might have targeted BJ?
Who was that other employee who said he saw them that morning? Was it just Harris and Klebold driving one vehicle, or were there others in the cars or did they drive up in two vehicles?
Do you think it's possible Eric and Dylan were imagining being chased to work? Odd that you say it happened several times yet you never saw any evidence of anybody after them.
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Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 1:08 am
User 8
This is all fascinating. Thank you so much for taking the time to share this with people like us.
I think it is great you are offering insight to what they (mainly) Eric was like leading up to the shooting. New insight. It helps me understand this whole thing and come to terms with it a lot better (being directly affected by the moral panic it caused resulting in my being ostracized by society and mankind for the remainder of my youth).
And please, PLEASE don't feel compelled to answer anything you don't feel comfortable sharing. You owe us nothing.
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Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 3:49 am
User 9
Not doubting your word at all. It's just difficult to visualize Dylan Klebold, at least 6'2" and well-connected, being bullied during his senior year. Not impossible, but difficult to imagine. Maybe he got some splash damage from being nearby when Eric was bullied? Picking on Dylan just seems risky even for a jock.
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Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 10:30 am
Jason
User 9, I know it is hard to envision, and to be honest I don't know how he was bullied. He was taller than me. Maybe it was something that happened for a long time, maybe before he "sprouted"? I don't really know. I don't think he was as much of the teasing as reb was. He was more outgoing, and probably was able to get along with some better, but I don't know for sure. I remember being in middle school and picking on guys much much bigger than me. It's not always about size, it is mostly a mental state. One of the reasons I wanted those two to go outside and confront their tormenters. Try to build some confidence in them to stand up for themselves. To help them not fear these people.
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Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 10:55 am
Jason
User 8, thank you for trying to understand this. I still am. You connect with people in this life, some more than others. On a deeper level with some and really deep with others. I always liked reb, and Dylan. I felt like I was connecting with reb and that we had a chance to be friends at some point. I was 26 then and not too much older, I saw myself in him and I could relate to him as I had similar experiences growing up, just not to those extremes. I chose a path that didn't involve all the violence, but I was almost as angry as those two were inside, growing up. So it scares me to think that my path could've been similar, Eerily similar. I still feel I know why they snapped, but ultimately it is still a choice. They made theirs and I made mine. Now we all get to live with the consequences of those choices.
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Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 11:07 am
User 3
I'm not sure about labor laws and what not from 1999 but were 15 year olds allowed to work on a school day when they should have been in school?
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Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 12:02 pm
User 2
The information comes from Sue Klebold's interview with police. There was some extensive discussion of it.
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Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 12:33 pm
Jason
I was wondering if someone would ask that. This kid was on work release. Nice guy, but a hooligan no less.
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Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 12:35 pm
Jason
User 2, I don't know about you, but if my mom was asked what music I listened to, I am sure she would pick the most popular rock group of the time. I am only telling you what I knew and heard. Maybe they were closet manson fans?
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Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 12:38 pm
User 2
I could be wrong, but I don't think this ever showed up in any of the reports though. So, either the FBI was just pulling your chain to see if they could get any information, or it was a theory of theirs that didn't pan out, or something else.
Thinking about it, I really can't see them shooting up BJP. Planting a bomb with a timer is a diversionary tactic. Pulling out guns and shooting a place/people is not diversionary.
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Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 12:45 pm
Quote: User 2, I don't know about you, but if my mom was asked what music I listened to, I am sure she would pick the most popular rock group of the time.
User 2
I think you are missing the context. The following is a report, but you can find the actual interview in the 11k.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]Quote: The Klebold's said that Dylan had a Nine Inch Nails poster and another poster of a woman in a leopard bikini. The Klebold's said that Dylan also had three sports pictures regarding baseball and also had some street signs. Mrs. Klebold indicated that Dylan had a poster of Marilyn Manson and that she asked him about it, and in particular asked him what it meant. Dylan had told her that it didn't mean anything and that he didn't really listen to lyrics of Marilyn Manson music, however, did listen to the music.
User 2
Dylan had a MM poster on his wall.
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Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 12:52 pm
Jason
Well, I can tell you only what I knew from the work environment and what they said there. I haven't been to their houses or rooms, or in their cars etc. I only knew what they said and played at work...tool, rammstein (constantly) and that they said manson was gay. So frankly I will just leave that out there and others can decide whether manson was their band or not. maybe Dylan liked him an reb didn't? Dont know really. My work experiences are all I really know for sure to go on...with all the false mixed information I come across. For instance, the police interview didn't spell my name correctly, seems small, but really is quite important. They all said I worked for kirgis for a year! Huge error! Means a whole different ball game if that was the case. So facts arent always accurate...even by the police.
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Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 1:04 pm
Jason
Apparently the threats were made in a video. That's what Chris and I were told. The fact that our employee saw them drive up that morning, leads me to believe they weren't there for a pie. I don't care what the reports say, I know what I knew. There has been so much garbage published by everyone, including the police, that it's hard to wade through what was fact. It's easier to see the incorrect things from this side. You can only go with what seems reasonable and seems to fit. No one person or agency probably will ever have 100% of the facts, including me. I just know what I saw and heard.
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Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 1:57 pm
Quote: For instance, the police interview didn't spell my name correctly, seems small, but really is quite important. They all said I worked for kirgis for a year! Huge error! Means a whole different ball game if that was the case. So facts arent always accurate...even by the police.
User 2
So very, very true. I am often surprised by how many errors are in the 11k. Many of them do deal with ancillary issues, issues where the cops were getting background or checking on things, but weren’t really chasing down a theory. You can see that with their limited talks with you and other people at BJP other than E&D’s direct associates.
Quote: Apparently the threats were made in a video. That's what Chris and I were told.
User 2
Right, but therein lays the problem: you don’t know if those threats were actually made, or if you were just told they were. So far as I am aware, no one else who saw the complete video evidence reported this planned attack.
Quote: The fact that our employee saw them drive up that morning, leads me to believe they weren't there for a pie.
User 2
What is this person’s name? I would like to look at their interview in the 11k.
BTW, I am not calling you a liar. I just want to understand the claim more. Check out this map:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]See the big distance between where the bomb was set, and the school? Now as you know looking at this map, the Blackjack Pizza is right next to the fire station. So very close to the school, it’s hard for me to see such a planned attack as diversionary. It doesn’t mean they didn’t want to shoot someone, of course, but it seems unlikely to me that this was their diversionary plan.
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Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 2:18 pm
Jason
I was surprised by the 5 minute interviews by each agency myself. Never much follow up either.
Like I said, I don't know. You may be right, may have been smoke up the wazoo. Except what MY employee told me, That day, before we knew what was going on.
Trying to remember his name...Michael maybe? Crap been so long can hardly remember. Been bugging me since yesterday that I Can't remember. I think it was Michael though. It would have been only Michael that worked there at that time though.
As for the plan....let's face it...they weren't rational. They weren't master planners and carried everything out according to what would make sense. Thank god. I understand they couldnt gt a propane tank in the cafeteria to blow, which would have been real bad as i understand it...correct m if am wrong...you guys seem to have waaay more knowledge than me about the ancillary things. Using common sense they wouldn't have killed a bunch of innocent kids and a teacher. So as for diversionary, smart yes, dangerous yes, fairly well thought out yes, bit by no means rational. Th way thinking was officially lost to them. So who knows what the point of us was. I tried to help them, and to be told that, well....it pissed me off.
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Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 2:24 pm
User 4
If they actually had shot up BJack then... the cops would have been called on them. That'd have made it very difficult for them to avoid the cops and get to Columbine while the cops were still searching for them.
If they did talk about shooting up BJack on the videos, it may have been diversionary- maybe they thought the cops would find out about it during the massacre and post guards there and divest resources away, or maybe they wanted to put a pipe bomb there somewhere, I don't know.
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Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 3:07 pm
Jason
Yeah. That's the part that always confused me. I vaguely remember Chris being shown the video...but don't remember for sure. Neither of us could figure out why us? Other than "the party place" was now a work place with discipline and more order than before. That was the best we could come up with.
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Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 3:14 pm
User 7
Jason,
Do you think another one of your employees--Chris Morris--could have been involved, given his closeness to Harris and Klebold?
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Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 3:21 pm
Jason
Funny you should ask that. No offense to Chris, I liked most of these guys, but we actually thought it was Chris shooting the school up initially. Black trench coat, little unstable etc. Then we heard there might be more than one. After I called everybody...three people were unaccounted for Chris reb and Dylan.when there was a mention of black trench coat on the radio, that's when we figured we probably knew who it was going to be and started to fear the shit storm that was coming.
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Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 3:32 pm
Quote: Trying to remember his name...Michael maybe?
User 2
In the 11k, the Blackjack Pizza information begins at 10141. I can't find a Michael there. But there is a Miceal Mooney McEwan! It starts at 10186.
McEwan says that he saw Dylan before 11 AM, driving down the road (presumably Coal Mine Road), wearing a Hawaiian shirt. McEwan says he was crossing from Shiloh house to his therapist's office. After his appointment, he walked to Blackjack Pizza. Not sure the rest makes sense:
"Upon reaching the parking lot of the Blackjack Pizza, he observed that Klebold had returned and was now wearing all black. McEwan also observed that Harris' gray Toyota was following the BMW. When McEwan approached the his two coworkers" they sped off northbound on Pierce towards Columbine H.S."
Quote: As for the plan....let's face it...they weren't rational. They weren't master planners and carried everything out according to what would make sense.
User 2
I would have to disagree. They were master planners for their age. The plan they had was very smart. The problem was that their bomb making skills were utter crap. Oddly, the only bomb with a timer that did work (sort of) was the diversionary bomb, which was actually a mix of bombs rigged to go off at 11:15. I believe this bomb was part of the plan.
I think when you are writing "rational" maybe you mean moral or ethical? They definitely needed help in that department!
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Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 4:00 pm
Jason
Yes! Michael mcewan that was our 15 year old work release cook! That is what I mean...he saw them behind blackjack before they took off.
And I disagree...yes great planners. Yes intelligent. Yes well thought out..But how do you figure any of what they did was rational?? Hardly! And yes, I also mean moral and ethical as well. Don't diefy or glorify them....they don't deserve that. They were created by their surroundings...perfect storm if you will...but still human beings that weren't clear and made a massive bad decision. Period.
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Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 4:02 pm
Jason
Also, THEY DID NOTHING TO HURT THOSE THAT HURT THEM! They only killed a bunch of innocent kids. Not one "jock" as it were. I get revenge and anger and hurt and hatred. But they just lashed out at whomever was near. So yeah some planners...didn't get who they wanted one bit.
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Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 4:09 pm
Jason
In case you have forgotten or don't know...here is the definition of rational:
adj.
1. Having or exercising the ability to reason.
2. Of sound mind; sane.
3. Consistent with or based on reason; logical: rational behavior. See Synonyms at logical.
4. Mathematics Capable of being expressed as a quotient of integers.
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Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 4:18 pm
User 7
Another question for Jason,
The last eight or so weeks before the shooting, did Harris and Klebold work steady at BJ, or were there periods of extended absenses, like were they gone for a week or more during that time?
The reason I asked is there were reports that Harris may have been hospitalized or jailed at some point, or they may have both taken trips out of town.
Last edited by User 7 on Sat Dec 04, 2010 4:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 4:19 pm
Jason
No absences. Always on time..always did a good job. Nothing to indicate any rebellious tendencies etc.
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Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 4:21 pm
Jason
So I have a question for you guys now. Why the interest? What age ranges we talking about here? What professions are you guys in? I am just curious.
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Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 4:21 pm
Quote: But how do you figure any of what they did was rational?? Hardly! And yes, I also mean moral and ethical as well. Don't diefy or glorify them....they don't deserve that.
User 2
I’m not glorifying them at all. There aren't many people who glorify them on this board, and I'm certainly not one of them.
I’m saying that their moral and ethical failings don’t make them bad planners. I was reacting to you writing: “As for the plan....let's face it...they weren't rational. They weren't master planners and carried everything out according to what would make sense.”
If you analyze their plan, and the soundness of their plan, it certainly strikes me as rational. By soundness, I mean, the logical structure of the plan… to create a diversion, the cafeteria bombs, the car bombs, etc.. It was a rather complex plan and one I would consider highly developed. As such, I think the notion that shooting up the BJP was the original diversion plan, and that the diversionary bomb was a failover move… I don’t think it holds water. Maybe they had other plans for BJP, though.
As far as them failing to kill jocks, that was not their plan. There plan was to kill everyone and anyone they could. They didn't kill the 250+ that Dylan had hoped for, but they still got 13. If their bombs had worked, they would have killed more. Clearly they were not worried about just killing jocks though.
That said, I'm pretty sure Matt Ketcher and Isiah Shoels were both "jocks" on some level.
As criminal and depraved as the two were, they weren't terrible planners, and the diversionary bomb was foreshadowed by Dylan already months before. January-ish 1999, IIRC.
BTW, do you still live in the area?
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Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 4:23 pm
Jason
As I understand it now...he was on some meds at one point...and was in trouble with the law too. But that was not while we knew him.
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Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 4:24 pm
User 7
A few more, if you don't mind:
Do you remember Charles Phillips or Nate Dykeman working there, and if so what was your impression of them?
Why the interest?
Are you aware that eyewitnesses said Chris Morris was in that school at the time, firing a gun(as well as other members of the TCM)? I was just hoping you could shed some light on the thought that Morris was a lot closer to the plan that he let on.
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Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 4:28 pm
Jason
User 2, I agree with their planning skills. They put a lot of time and thought into it. They were smart and efficient. But you are talking I think about the specifics of the plan and I am referring to the act as a whole. So yes me walking down the street is rational....but me walking down the street with a gun to kill someone would be irrational. So maybe that is where we are disagreeing. You guys use a lot of quotes, so reread where I did indeed say they were good planners. But by definition...the plan...and what it entailed...it's end means if you will....was not rational. Ok...I agree they just wanted kills...and in numbers....seems weird to me though they wouldn't want their juiciest target though.
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Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 4:36 pm
Jason
User 7, Charles Phillips doesn't ring a bell. Sorry. As for Nate, he worked for us maybe a week? He was one that didn't care for our improvements and didn't want to stick around. Since he was only there a week or so, I never really new much of him. He was older a bit I think than the high school kids. I think he was a driver only, meaning I saw even less of him.
I heard a lot of rumors and Chris Morris being involved was one of them. I remember seeing him in handcuffs on tv and being put in a cop car. But like everything else...he wore a black trench coat...so that by association made him a bad guy. I think if he was shooting, he wouldnt be out today. I doubt he could have pulled off a ruse like that. I am only speculating because there wasn't a mention of the plan from Chris and I never saw him again after this. But I bet he knew about it. He probably thought it was more a fantasy than a reality, or maybe didn't view it as something tangible. Remember, our gut reactions were he was the one doing it.
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Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 4:58 pm
Jason
Yeah still in denver.
NOTE: This was Jason's last post in this thread.
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Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 5:27 pm
User 7
Well thank you for taking the time to answer our questions.
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Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 5:50 pm
User 2
Indeed, thanks!
Quote: I agree with their planning skills. They put a lot of time and thought into it. They were smart and efficient. But you are talking I think about the specifics of the plan and I am referring to the act as a whole.
User 2
You are now, but that’s not how I interpreted your first use of the word rational. My interest in their “rationality” here has to do with the logical cohesion of their plan. My interest in that cohesion stems, in this discussion, from your earlier description of their possible attack on the BJP as their original diversionary act, one that was not carried through because no one was at the location.
I cannot see the purportedly planned attack on BJP as being a superior diversionary plan to the bomb setup further south. When I tried to explain that point of you, that’s when you questioned their plan and said it was not rational. As such, I took that as a rebuttal to my suggestion that the bomb location was a superior diversionary approach to a supposed attack on BJP.
I do think their planning was quite logical and as such it is hard for me to accept that they were at BJP for any malicious reasons. Also, you and Chris are spoken of in the basement tapes, and it’s not obviously unfavorable. I think the cops, had they the opportunity, would have loved to tell the story of Eric and Dylan’s plan to kill their manager/boss. My guess is that they had no real evidence of such.
Quote: So yes me walking down the street is rational....but me walking down the street with a gun to kill someone would be irrational.
User 2
It would depend on the situation now, wouldn’t it?
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Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 12:57 am
User 10
Hey... thanks for coming here (whatever it was that brought you here), and for being willing to answer questions...
I have one: You said that Eric and Dylan were both fans of Hitler... How did their Hitler-love manifest itself? And were you aware at the time that Dylan was part-Jewish?
Thanks again.
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Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 10:28 am
User 11
Hi Venturo - it's always interesting to have someone on the board who has an actual real-life knowledge of the 2 of them.
To answer some of your questions: I'm interested because I don't get it. Everything I have read/seen indicates that they were teenagers who were smart and pissed off and not too popular - that doesn't provide enough fuel for what they did as far as I can reason. I'm old - 36. And a techie by trade, but not a gamer.
I think I'd just like to know what you thought of them. If you can seperate what they did from who you thought they were before they did it. If you can see enough reason for them to do what they did?
Subject: Jason Secor on the old board 
Wed Jul 22, 2015 4:04 am