What did you expect to learn from the Basement Tapes?

The Basement Tapes have become the Holy Grail of 4/20.

What answers were you looking for in the Basement Tapes?

Personally, I don't think we would get many answers, but we would gain a lot more insight.

I don't think I expected many actual answers.
I only wanted to hear them speak for themselves as for their feelings and motivations for causing the tragedy, and being willing to destroy themselves and to see them interact with each other when nobody else was around. You would have gotten a view inside the world only the two of them lived in.

We'd probably be able to tell whether Eric was genuinely crying or faking it, and than proceed to still debate it.

I want to see how they interact with each other without acting. Pretty much everything we have (videos) is them acting (with the exception of Rampart Range) and even then, there were other people around so they weren't going to be their true selves.

It makes absolutely no sense to me that Rampart Range was made public but the Basement Tapes were not. They can't use the 'oh, we're afraid of copy cats excuse, because, I think, that them shooting guns would be inclined to get more copy cats than them just sitting in a basement talking about what they hate. Unless there's something on those tapes that they're not telling us but I doubt it.

Jenn wrote:

I think, that them shooting guns would be inclined to get more copy cats than them just sitting in a basement talking about what they hate.

That's a good point.

I'm not sure what I would expect from the BT, but one thing I think would happen is that Dylan's image as a follower and "reluctant" killer might suffer a serious blow. By all accounts he comes off as the more aggressive and bloodthirsty of the two. The direct opposite of their journals.

Gustopoet2 wrote:

Jenn wrote:

I think, that them shooting guns would be inclined to get more copy cats than them just sitting in a basement talking about what they hate.

That's a good point.

I'm not sure what I would expect from the BT, but one thing I think would happen is that Dylan's image as a follower and "reluctant" killer might suffer a serious blow. By all accounts he comes off as the more aggressive and bloodthirsty of the two. The direct opposite of their journals.

I've always felt that Dylan came up with the plan first. I never believed that Dylan was the innocent follower. Even when I first started getting into Columbine back in 2011. Reading their journals it was clear to me that Dylan was talking about wanting to go on a killing spree as far back as 1997.

Eric didn't start all his websites about hating and killing until after he and Dylan got really close (which happened after Zack ditched Dylan for Devon). To me this is no coincidence. I think it was Dylan who put the ideas into Eric's head. It was Dylan who wanted to die. From the start of the journal in 96 or 97 Dylan was talking about dying and talking about shooting people.

I'm not so sure Eric actually hated people as much as he claims. To me, it seems like he wanted friends. Like he wanted people to like him, like he wanted dates and wanted to get invited to places with people. Sure, I think he had a bad temper but underneath it all, I think Eric did want to be included and have friends. If anyone was a follower, I think it was Eric. Take drinking and smoking for example. Eric did not like these things. He even said so in his journal. He was only drinking because 'Vodka' liked drinking. Same thing with the cigarettes. I think Dylan was the smoker and Eric just followed him. Dylan also got into the whole dressing in black and wearing trench coat stuff first and once again, Eric followed. Does anyone remember how Eric used to dress? Preppy like. There are even witnesses who have said this. Eric also got the same sticker for the back of his car that Dylan had on his. Eric wrote about how Dylan was his best friend. Dylan just settled on Eric because Zack was pulling away for a girl. It was Zack that Dylan wanted to spend all of his time with. He was extremely sad and depressed when Zack got a girlfriend and that is when he started getting closer with Eric. So how would it make sense that Dylan followed Eric when Eric wasn't even the one Dylan wanted to hang around? He only started hanging around him because his first choice was no longer interested in hanging out with him.

Then I get to thinking about Cullen's book and wonder how he came to the conclusion that Dylan was this depressed follower when everything I'm seeing is quite the opposite.

Another example is Brooks Brown. Brooks and Eric had a huge falling out. I'm not sure what the exact reason was. I think Eric got upset because Brooks was supposed to pick him up and was either late or didn't bother to pick him up at all. Anyhow, after the fight and not talking for some time (I'm not sure how long it was) Brooks spoke with Eric and said something along the lines of forgetting the past, patching things up and going back to being friends. Eric didn't even hesitate on it (according to Brooks) he said OK and decided to be Brooks friend again. And we know that they were friends again as they were sitting together in the class photo and Eric spoke with Brooks on the morning of the shooting. If Eric hated people so much and wanted nothing to do with anybody, he wouldn't have even considered being friends with Brooks again.

I think Eric's journal was all for show. I think he wrote that for an audience. I don't think those were his true feelings. I believe his crying on the Basement Tapes was genuine. I believe that he was the follower and I think that he wanted friends and wanted to be liked. Granted, in the end he did murder people but I do not believe that he was this emotionless psychopath. And I certainly do believe that how he was treated and how he felt rejected and also Dylan's influence had a lot to do with Eric's involvement. And no, I'm not saying Dylan forced him into it at all. Eric participated on his own but I do not think he came up with this idea. I think Dylan did.

It would kind of give me a way to look into their real lives. So far we have seen a lot of acting from them, and a lot of facts, but I feel that the basement tapes would be (maybe not the last but) another piece in the puzzle of their lives and the shooting. To see what they were actually like, together and in general situations. To be able to figure them out a bit more (particularly Dylan). Also, I imagine they would hold a lot more information about what was really going on in their heads that we would never have seen before. They were a key aspect in the boys lives, and would be a key aspect in getting a true perspective of the whole situation.

Though the tapes would definitely be insightful in regards to their interactions, I wonder how much we could take what we see there at face value as well. They hoped the tapes would be seen across the world, which is hardly a scenario where they'd be acting as they usually might. While there might be much to glean from their statements, I think we'd also see posturing that they might not have done in a more deliberately private setting.

I don't buy the whole 'we'd see what they were really like' story. I think the basement tapes would just consist of more acting.

These are the tapes they'd expect to have come out on the news channels so I figure most of it will have been playing up for the camera and the audience they expected to see it.

There will be some 'genuine' moments in there but I guess the majority won't give you a real insight.

Radioactive_Clothing wrote:

I don't buy the whole 'we'd see what they were really like' story. I think the basement tapes would just consist of more acting.

These are the tapes they'd expect to have come out on the news channels so I figure most of it will have been playing up for the camera and the audience they expected to see it.

There will be some 'genuine' moments in there but I guess the majority won't give you a real insight.

I agree with you on this. I think we'd see allot of false bravado between the two of them, trying to work themselves up into going through with the deed. However, there are times when it's just Eric and that would probably provide some insight. Regardless, I'd want to see how they acted alone together.

"I think Eric's journal was all for show. I think he wrote that for an audience."


I think the exact opposite. He meant what he said, sure it was written for an audience, but he meant it. Just the fact that he does talk about how he can't get laid, and how people make fun of him, etc., shows me that he is being authentic in his journal.

A few things:

1) How did Eric and Dylan interact?

2) Was there any substance to the claims that "Dylan would jump off a cliff if Eric told him to do it". And that Eric was the leader and ordered Dylan around (I suspect not).

3) Body langauge, could tell us a few things.

4) Was the way they talked in front of one another very different from the sort of things they wrote in the journals? My suspicion is that Dylan would be very different, trying to adapt and conform to Eric's norms.

5) More info about the motives, if these are coherent or contrary to what they wrote in the journals.

6) Are the alledged quotes from the BT that witnessess report are all true and accurate

I suspect not, probably many are misquoted or misunderstood. Scott's misunderstanding is the one we could pinpoint becuas he recorded that part. Its more than likley that the TIME magazine people also misunderstood some stuff.

Radioactive_Clothing wrote:

I don't buy the whole 'we'd see what they were really like' story. I think the basement tapes would just consist of more acting. These are the tapes they'd expect to have come out on the news channels so I figure most of it will have been playing up for the camera and the audience they expected to see it. There will be some 'genuine' moments in there but I guess the majority won't give you a real insight.

Agreed, I'm certian the journals are the more valuable source.

Having to pick among one of the two - journals and BT, I'm glad we have the journals and not BT.

aubre wrote:

"I think Eric's journal was all for show. I think he wrote that for an audience."

I think the exact opposite. He meant what he said, sure it was written for an audience, but he meant it. Just the fact that he does talk about how he can't get laid, and how people make fun of him, etc., shows me that he is being authentic in his journal.

Agree. Eric mostly behaved and wrote like he didn't give a flyign fuck about what people will think.

The fact that he goes to great lenghts to make sure people understand what he is writing (particularly about school system, society, naturla instincts etc) is very telling. He not only cared about this, he cared enough to jump through hoops to be understood properly.

It's too bad...the BT were also for an audience, so we may never know how Dylan and Eric *truly* interacted alone with each other. The BT is the closest thing we can get though.

It would not show us who they really were, because they acted in front of each other most of all. Dylan screaming and carrying on would not show he wasn't a follower. Followers will go to great lengths to impress their leaders.

*rolls eyes* at lasttrain's comment

As if Dylan ever gave a crap what people thought of him, let alone not caring after his death that people would think he was a follower.

And honestly, who cares If he really was a follower? Maybe he really was a follower. It doesn't mean a damn thing because he 100% willingly participated in the massacre.

By the way, all Dylan had to do is report to the cops and say "Yeah my best friend is threatening to blow up the entire school. Go to his house, he has pipe bombs everywhere". Cops get a search warrant, find Eric's shit, Eric goes to jail. Dylan is the hero. The End. But that didn't happen did it? Why? Because he wanted to hurt people just as much as Eric did. This whole follower and leader crap is all nonsense because it doesn't mean anything in the end.

lol wrote:

By the way, all Dylan had to do is report to the cops and say "Yeah my best friend is threatening to blow up the entire school. Go to his house, he has pipe bombs everywhere". Cops get a search warrant, find Eric's shit, Eric goes to jail. Dylan is the hero. The End. But that didn't happen did it? Why? Because he wanted to hurt people just as much as Eric did. This whole follower and leader crap is all nonsense because it doesn't mean anything in the end.

I agree wholeheartedly.

Dylan wasn't too afraid of Eric to tell Brooks about Eric's website, was he? (He did it on the sly, but he did do it.)

LPorter101 wrote:

lol wrote:

By the way, all Dylan had to do is report to the cops and say "Yeah my best friend is threatening to blow up the entire school. Go to his house, he has pipe bombs everywhere". Cops get a search warrant, find Eric's shit, Eric goes to jail. Dylan is the hero. The End. But that didn't happen did it? Why? Because he wanted to hurt people just as much as Eric did. This whole follower and leader crap is all nonsense because it doesn't mean anything in the end.

I agree wholeheartedly.

Dylan wasn't too afraid of Eric to tell Brooks about Eric's website, was he? (He did it on the sly, but he did do it.)

I don't think Dylan did it on the sly, I think Eric wanted Brooks to find out about it.

aubre wrote:

LPorter101 wrote:

lol wrote:

By the way, all Dylan had to do is report to the cops and say "Yeah my best friend is threatening to blow up the entire school. Go to his house, he has pipe bombs everywhere". Cops get a search warrant, find Eric's shit, Eric goes to jail. Dylan is the hero. The End. But that didn't happen did it? Why? Because he wanted to hurt people just as much as Eric did. This whole follower and leader crap is all nonsense because it doesn't mean anything in the end.

I agree wholeheartedly.

Dylan wasn't too afraid of Eric to tell Brooks about Eric's website, was he? (He did it on the sly, but he did do it.)

I don't think Dylan did it on the sly, I think Eric wanted Brooks to know find out about it.

In March of 1998, I was walking to class when Dylan approached me with a small piece of paper. On it was written the address for a Web site.

"I think you should take a look at this tonight," Dylan said.

I shrugged. "Okay. Anything special?" I figured at the time that it was the address for some new program Dylan had uncovered.

"It's Eric's Web site," he said. "You need to see it. And you can't tell Eric I gave it to you."

I nodded. "All right."

Yeah I know the story. I just don't believe Dylan was worried about Brooks. I think it was set up between Dylan and Eric for Brooks to find out.

aubre wrote:

Yeah I know the story. I just don't believe Dylan was worried about Brooks. I think it was set up between Dylan and Eric for Brooks to find out.  

Ah.

I do think that it was truly awkward for Dylan at times ... he had a lot more friends than Eric had.

LPorter101 wrote:

aubre wrote:

Yeah I know the story. I just don't believe Dylan was worried about Brooks. I think it was set up between Dylan and Eric for Brooks to find out.  

Ah.

I do think that it was truly awkward for Dylan at times ... he had a lot more friends than Eric had.

Maybe so, but I think Dylan was allot more devious and manipulative then people give him credit for. Maybe he did it to fuck with both of them, who knows.

aubre wrote:

LPorter101 wrote:

aubre wrote:

Yeah I know the story. I just don't believe Dylan was worried about Brooks. I think it was set up between Dylan and Eric for Brooks to find out.  

Ah.

I do think that it was truly awkward for Dylan at times ... he had a lot more friends than Eric had.

Maybe so, but I think Dylan was allot more devious and manipulative then people give him credit for. Maybe he did it to fuck with both of them, who knows.

True.

Sometimes even I have a hard time wrapping my head around Dylan ... on prom night, Eric sat alone in a dark room with Susan DeWitt, all but screaming, "I'm horny and desperate! At least let me do *something* semi-sexual to you!" But Dylan had a grand old time on the social merry-go-round, even knowing what he was going to be doing three days later.

LPorter101 wrote:

aubre wrote:

LPorter101 wrote:

aubre wrote:

Yeah I know the story. I just don't believe Dylan was worried about Brooks. I think it was set up between Dylan and Eric for Brooks to find out.  

Ah.

I do think that it was truly awkward for Dylan at times ... he had a lot more friends than Eric had.

Maybe so, but I think Dylan was allot more devious and manipulative then people give him credit for. Maybe he did it to fuck with both of them, who knows.

True.

Sometimes even I have a hard time wrapping my head around Dylan ... on prom night, Eric sat alone in a dark room with Susan DeWitt, all but screaming, "I'm horny and desperate! At least let me do *something* semi-sexual to you!" But Dylan had a grand old time on the social merry-go-round, even knowing what he was going to be doing three days later.

I feel the same way about Dylan, mostly I just see a whole lot of crazy. But then I think, no you knew what was up, you were just really slick. He continues to fool people to this day.

aubre wrote:

I feel the same way about Dylan, mostly I just see a whole lot of crazy. But then I think, no you knew what was up, you were just really slick. He continues to fool people to this day.

Dylan gives off a schizo vibe to me.

I even mentioned this to Cullen once - years ago, he responded to something I wrote somewhere, and I responded to his response. He pooh-poohed the whole idea - "No one has ever seriously suggested that Dylan was schizophrenic."

When I read Eric's journal, I think, "Napoleonic rage." But when I read Dylan's journal, I think, "Batshit craziness."

LPorter101 wrote:

aubre wrote:

I feel the same way about Dylan, mostly I just see a whole lot of crazy. But then I think, no you knew what was up, you were just really slick. He continues to fool people to this day.

Dylan gives off a schizo vibe to me.

I even mentioned this to Cullen once - years ago, he responded to something I wrote somewhere, and I responded to his response. He pooh-poohed the whole idea - "No one has ever seriously suggested that Dylan was schizophrenic."

When I read Eric's journal, I think, "Napoleonic rage." But when I read Dylan's journal, I think, "Batshit craziness."

Lol, yeah no kidding I've had the same sentiments.

So, you've talk to that hack? If I ever had the chance I'd have a few choice words for that moron. Also if I'm not mistaken something along the lines of schizophrenia had been suggested.

aubre wrote:

LPorter101 wrote:

aubre wrote:

I feel the same way about Dylan, mostly I just see a whole lot of crazy. But then I think, no you knew what was up, you were just really slick. He continues to fool people to this day.

Dylan gives off a schizo vibe to me.

I even mentioned this to Cullen once - years ago, he responded to something I wrote somewhere, and I responded to his response. He pooh-poohed the whole idea - "No one has ever seriously suggested that Dylan was schizophrenic."

When I read Eric's journal, I think, "Napoleonic rage." But when I read Dylan's journal, I think, "Batshit craziness."

Lol, yeah no kidding I've had the same sentiments.

So, you've talk to that hack? If I ever had the chance I'd have a few choice words for that moron. Also if I'm not mistaken something along the lines of schizophrenia had been suggested.

I e-mailed him one time, and he e-mailed me back one time.

Alas, I was nice to him ... at the time, I still held out hope for getting him to post on the (old) board.

LPorter101 wrote:

aubre wrote:

LPorter101 wrote:

aubre wrote:

I feel the same way about Dylan, mostly I just see a whole lot of crazy. But then I think, no you knew what was up, you were just really slick. He continues to fool people to this day.

Dylan gives off a schizo vibe to me.

I even mentioned this to Cullen once - years ago, he responded to something I wrote somewhere, and I responded to his response. He pooh-poohed the whole idea - "No one has ever seriously suggested that Dylan was schizophrenic."

When I read Eric's journal, I think, "Napoleonic rage." But when I read Dylan's journal, I think, "Batshit craziness."

Lol, yeah no kidding I've had the same sentiments.

So, you've talk to that hack? If I ever had the chance I'd have a few choice words for that moron. Also if I'm not mistaken something along the lines of schizophrenia had been suggested.

I e-mailed him one time, and he e-mailed me back one time.

Alas, I was nice to him ... at the time, I still held out hope for getting him to post on the (old) board.

Maybe he is posting here, I'm not naming any names, but there are some that sound like they're quoting his book directly.

aubre wrote:

Maybe he is posting here, I'm not naming any names, but there are some that sound like they're quoting his book directly.

You never know ... at any rate, that train has long since left the station.

LPorter101 wrote:

aubre wrote:

Maybe he is posting here, I'm not naming any names, but there are some that sound like they're quoting his book directly.

You never know ... at any rate, that train has long since left the station.

This goes to illustrate how two people can see the same thing utterly differently.
What you likely see as "batshit craziness", I see as indicative as a deep and beautiful(to me) spirituality.

LPorter101 wrote:

aubre wrote:

I feel the same way about Dylan, mostly I just see a whole lot of crazy. But then I think, no you knew what was up, you were just really slick. He continues to fool people to this day.

Dylan gives off a schizo vibe to me.

I even mentioned this to Cullen once - years ago, he responded to something I wrote somewhere, and I responded to his response. He pooh-poohed the whole idea - "No one has ever seriously suggested that Dylan was schizophrenic."

When I read Eric's journal, I think, "Napoleonic rage." But when I read Dylan's journal, I think, "Batshit craziness."

PaintItBlack wrote:

This goes to illustrate how two people can see the same thing utterly differently.
What you likely see as "batshit craziness", I see as indicative as a deep and beautiful(to me) spirituality.

Well, he was a smart and thoughtful guy ... but I don't grok a lot of what he wrote.

Quote :

1.5 human years.... so much changed in small time, my friends (at my choice) are depleting & collapsing under each other (Eric & [edited]) like i thought they would. I am ready to be w. [edited]. The ups & downs of fate are forever, good & bad, equal. me. [tri-tier cross] the lost highway, & downward spiral never end. existence is like infinity times itself. ∞ ∞ I have passed thru this much of the ever existence. this is almost a checkpoint. The zombies have set their place in my mind. for the cliff theory, Ive jumped off w. [arrow down to] [edited] & we've floated away to the halcyon. the zombies will pay for their being, their nature. I know everything, yet I know nothing. I am a true god. my infinite memories, thoughts, perceivations of purity come a lot more w. her, there is pure pure hapiness -- the pupo purpose of our our existence. I hate, love things. hate everything, love me & [edited]. I understand that i can never ever be a zombie, even if i wanted to. the nature of my entity.. Soon we will live in the halcyons of our minds, the one thing that made me a god. Things are so simple, now that they are infinitely complicated. HAHAHAHA

What does this even mean? It seems to boil down to, "I like this girl a lot. We'll be happy together because we're above all the dumb mindless sheep."

I'm a bottom-line hard-ass kind of guy - the kind who points out that the Book of Genesis can be summarized as "God made all." Maybe if I were a bit more prone to flights of fancy, I'd dig Dylan more than I do.

To me , it is as if he saw far beyond the mundane , to another more exalted place that others often do not know exist much less catch a glimpse of. Much off his writing had a very spiritual quality to me.
Which makes it even sadder that he allowed all that to be dimmed by hate, rage, depression and bitterness.

PaintItBlack wrote:

To me , it is as if he saw far beyond the mundane , to another more exalted place that others often do not know exist much less catch a glimpse of. Much off his writing had a very spiritual quality to me.
Which makes it even sadder that he allowed all that to be dimmed by hate, rage, depression and bitterness.

It sounds like someone who's losing his mind. When I read some of his stuff I think "someone needed to give this kid a xanax, he's making himself neurotic."

aubre wrote:

LPorter101 wrote:

lol wrote:

By the way, all Dylan had to do is report to the cops and say "Yeah my best friend is threatening to blow up the entire school. Go to his house, he has pipe bombs everywhere". Cops get a search warrant, find Eric's shit, Eric goes to jail. Dylan is the hero. The End. But that didn't happen did it? Why? Because he wanted to hurt people just as much as Eric did. This whole follower and leader crap is all nonsense because it doesn't mean anything in the end.

I agree wholeheartedly.

Dylan wasn't too afraid of Eric to tell Brooks about Eric's website, was he? (He did it on the sly, but he did do it.)

I don't think Dylan did it on the sly, I think Eric wanted Brooks to find out about it.

That's also what Krabbe seems to suggest in his book, or at least that's one of the options he considers.

Me? I dunno. It does seem odd that Dylan woult rat out his best friend to a guy he mostly stopped hanging out with a few years ago. We don't have the whole context of the situation, so we can't be sure. But I agree with Krabbe - we at least need to take into account the possibility that it was Eric stupidly trying to scare Brooks by having him see the website.

Seems like the sort of thing Eric would try to do if you ask me.

LPorter101 wrote:

But Dylan had a grand old time on the social merry-go-round, even knowing what he was going to be doing three days later.

I don't think he had a "grand old time". He wasn;t even planning to go, iirc he went only because both Robyn and his own dad were pestering him about it. I think he didn't want to goi with Robyn becuase "she wan't the one".

In the end, I think he went along with the prom in the same manner he went along with the trip to Arizona. "Play along, don't rock the boat, keep calm and normal"

Sabratha wrote:

aubre wrote:

LPorter101 wrote:

lol wrote:

By the way, all Dylan had to do is report to the cops and say "Yeah my best friend is threatening to blow up the entire school. Go to his house, he has pipe bombs everywhere". Cops get a search warrant, find Eric's shit, Eric goes to jail. Dylan is the hero. The End. But that didn't happen did it? Why? Because he wanted to hurt people just as much as Eric did. This whole follower and leader crap is all nonsense because it doesn't mean anything in the end.

I agree wholeheartedly.

Dylan wasn't too afraid of Eric to tell Brooks about Eric's website, was he? (He did it on the sly, but he did do it.)

I don't think Dylan did it on the sly, I think Eric wanted Brooks to find out about it.

That's also what Krabbe seems to suggest in his book, or at least that's one of the options he considers.

Me? I dunno. It does seem odd that Dylan woult rat out his best friend to a guy he mostly stopped hanging out with a few years ago. We don't have the whole context of the situation, so we can't be sure. But I agree with Krabbe - we at least need to take into account the possibility that it was Eric stupidly trying to scare Brooks by having him see the website.

Seems like the sort of thing Eric would try to do if you ask me.

Yes indeed, it definitely seems like something he would do. He certainly liked messing with people.

I wish I could read Krabbes' book, I'd like to read a more nuanced analysis of the whole thing.

LPorter101 wrote:

PaintItBlack wrote:

This goes to illustrate how two people can see the same thing utterly differently.
What you likely see as "batshit craziness", I see as indicative as a deep and beautiful(to me) spirituality.

Well, he was a smart and thoughtful guy ... but I don't grok a lot of what he wrote.

Quote :

1.5 human years.... so much changed in small time, my friends (at my choice) are depleting & collapsing under each other (Eric & [edited]) like i thought they would. I am ready to be w. [edited]. The ups & downs of fate are forever, good & bad, equal. me. [tri-tier cross] the lost highway, & downward spiral never end. existence is like infinity times itself. ∞ ∞ I have passed thru this much of the ever existence. this is almost a checkpoint. The zombies have set their place in my mind. for the cliff theory, Ive jumped off w. [arrow down to] [edited] & we've floated away to the halcyon. the zombies will pay for their being, their nature. I know everything, yet I know nothing. I am a true god. my infinite memories, thoughts, perceivations of purity come a lot more w. her, there is pure pure hapiness -- the pupo purpose of our our existence. I hate, love things. hate everything, love me & [edited]. I understand that i can never ever be a zombie, even if i wanted to. the nature of my entity.. Soon we will live in the halcyons of our minds, the one thing that made me a god. Things are so simple, now that they are infinitely complicated. HAHAHAHA

What does this even mean? It seems to boil down to, "I like this girl a lot. We'll be happy together because we're above all the dumb mindless sheep."

I'm a bottom-line hard-ass kind of guy - the kind who points out that the Book of Genesis can be summarized as "God made all." Maybe if I were a bit more prone to flights of fancy, I'd dig Dylan more than I do.

It sounds like Dylan was having an argument with himself and 9 out of his 10 voices agreed that he was God.

aubre wrote:

PaintItBlack wrote:

To me , it is as if he saw far beyond the mundane , to another more exalted place that others often do not know exist much less catch a glimpse of. Much off his writing had a very spiritual quality to me.
Which makes it even sadder that he allowed all that to be dimmed by hate, rage, depression and bitterness.

It sounds like someone who's losing his mind. When I read some of his stuff I think "someone needed to give this kid a xanax, he's making himself neurotic."

Again, people sometimes perceive very differently. There have been people over the years who have noticed the beauty and spirituality in some of his writing. A band on the soundtrack to the  recent popular movie "The Fault in our stars" used some of his writing in a song :

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

PaintItBlack wrote:

aubre wrote:

PaintItBlack wrote:

To me , it is as if he saw far beyond the mundane , to another more exalted place that others often do not know exist much less catch a glimpse of. Much off his writing had a very spiritual quality to me.
Which makes it even sadder that he allowed all that to be dimmed by hate, rage, depression and bitterness.

It sounds like someone who's losing his mind. When I read some of his stuff I think "someone needed to give this kid a xanax, he's making himself neurotic."

Again, people sometimes perceive very differently. There have been people over the years who have noticed the beauty and spirituality in some of his writing. A band on the soundtrack to the  recent popular movie "The Fault in our stars" used some of his writing in a song :

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Dylan's writing have a more lyrical/poetic feel to them, I'll give you that. I'm just not sure if it amounts to much besides the ravings of a sick mind. I really don't get the feeling Dylan was sitting there just pondering these things, I get the feeling he was driving himself crazy with these thoughts.

Sabratha wrote:

LPorter101 wrote:

But Dylan had a grand old time on the social merry-go-round, even knowing what he was going to be doing three days later.

I don't think he had a "grand old time". He wasn;t even planning to go, iirc he went only because both Robyn and his own dad were pestering him about it. I think he didn't want to goi with Robyn becuase "she wan't the one".

In the end, I think he went along with the prom in the same manner he went along with the trip to Arizona. "Play along, don't rock the boat, keep calm and normal"

I was being sarcastic.

Sabratha wrote:

aubre wrote:

LPorter101 wrote:

lol wrote:

By the way, all Dylan had to do is report to the cops and say "Yeah my best friend is threatening to blow up the entire school. Go to his house, he has pipe bombs everywhere". Cops get a search warrant, find Eric's shit, Eric goes to jail. Dylan is the hero. The End. But that didn't happen did it? Why? Because he wanted to hurt people just as much as Eric did. This whole follower and leader crap is all nonsense because it doesn't mean anything in the end.

I agree wholeheartedly.

Dylan wasn't too afraid of Eric to tell Brooks about Eric's website, was he? (He did it on the sly, but he did do it.)

I don't think Dylan did it on the sly, I think Eric wanted Brooks to find out about it.

That's also what Krabbe seems to suggest in his book, or at least that's one of the options he considers.

Me? I dunno. It does seem odd that Dylan woult rat out his best friend to a guy he mostly stopped hanging out with a few years ago. We don't have the whole context of the situation, so we can't be sure. But I agree with Krabbe - we at least need to take into account the possibility that it was Eric stupidly trying to scare Brooks by having him see the website.

Seems like the sort of thing Eric would try to do if you ask me.

Brooks himself said:

In truth, I don't know what Dylan's motives were for giving me that Web site. Maybe he was trying to warn me. Maybe he thought the site was funny, and just didn't take it as seriously as I did.

Or maybe Eric did want him to give the address to me. Maybe Dylan was in on it, and both of them wanted to send me a scare. I didn't know.

I have no doubt that Dylan knew exactly what was on that Web site when he gave me the address. He might not have been posting things on it himself, but at the very least, Eric was keeping him up to speed. So I was afraid to go back to him and mention it.

I hope I did not come off as trying to invalidate your opinion aubre.
I was just trying to illustrate that I'm not alone in my opinions about the beauty and spirituality of some of his writings. As far as the rest goes there is an old saying that goes something like one man's madman is another man's prophet. And I do not look on Dylan or Eric as prophets in any way but the quote goes along well with this discussion.

aubre wrote:

PaintItBlack wrote:

aubre wrote:

PaintItBlack wrote:

To me , it is as if he saw far beyond the mundane , to another more exalted place that others often do not know exist much less catch a glimpse of. Much off his writing had a very spiritual quality to me.
Which makes it even sadder that he allowed all that to be dimmed by hate, rage, depression and bitterness.

It sounds like someone who's losing his mind. When I read some of his stuff I think "someone needed to give this kid a xanax, he's making himself neurotic."

Again, people sometimes perceive very differently. There have been people over the years who have noticed the beauty and spirituality in some of his writing. A band on the soundtrack to the  recent popular movie "The Fault in our stars" used some of his writing in a song :

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Dylan's writing have a more lyrical/poetic feel to them, I'll give you that. I'm just not sure if it amounts to much besides the ravings of a sick mind. I really don't get the feeling Dylan was sitting there just pondering these things, I get the feeling he was driving himself crazy with these thoughts.

I think one can only go so far in choosing "insanity." The link between great genius and mental illness is much speculated upon as it has seemed to play out in the lives of such individuals such as Van Gogh, Hemingway, Einstein and so on.

aubre wrote:

PaintItBlack wrote:

I hope I did not come off as trying to invalidate your opinion aubre.
I was just trying to illustrate that I'm not alone in my opinions about the beauty and spirituality of some of his writings. As far as the rest goes there is an old saying that goes something like one man's madman is another man's prophet. And I do look on Dylan or Eric as prophets in any way but the quote goes along well with this discussion.

aubre wrote:

PaintItBlack wrote:

aubre wrote:

PaintItBlack wrote:

To me , it is as if he saw far beyond the mundane , to another more exalted place that others often do not know exist much less catch a glimpse of. Much off his writing had a very spiritual quality to me.
Which makes it even sadder that he allowed all that to be dimmed by hate, rage, depression and bitterness.

It sounds like someone who's losing his mind. When I read some of his stuff I think "someone needed to give this kid a xanax, he's making himself neurotic."

Again, people sometimes perceive very differently. There have been people over the years who have noticed the beauty and spirituality in some of his writing. A band on the soundtrack to the  recent popular movie "The Fault in our stars" used some of his writing in a song :

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Dylan's writing have a more lyrical/poetic feel to them, I'll give you that. I'm just not sure if it amounts to much besides the ravings of a sick mind. I really don't get the feeling Dylan was sitting there just pondering these things, I get the feeling he was driving himself

Oh no, absolutely not, feel free to disagree with me. The quote that come to my mind is "There's a thin line between genius and insanity" I'm just letting you know which one I think Dylan chose.

PaintItBlack wrote:

I think one can only  go so far in choosing "insanity." The link between great genius  and mental illness is much speculated upon as it has seemed to play out in the lives of such individuals such as Van Gogh, Hemingway, Einstein and so on.

aubre wrote:

PaintItBlack wrote:

I hope I did not come off as trying to invalidate your opinion aubre.
I was just trying to illustrate that I'm not alone in my opinions about the beauty and spirituality of some of his writings. As far as the rest goes there is an old saying that goes something like one man's madman is another man's prophet. And I do look on Dylan or Eric as prophets in any way but the quote goes along well with this discussion.

aubre wrote:

PaintItBlack wrote:

aubre wrote:

PaintItBlack wrote:

To me , it is as if he saw far beyond the mundane , to another more exalted place that others often do not know exist much less catch a glimpse of. Much off his writing had a very spiritual quality to me.
Which makes it even sadder that he allowed all that to be dimmed by hate, rage, depression and bitterness.

It sounds like someone who's losing his mind. When I read some of his stuff I think "someone needed to give this kid a xanax, he's making himself neurotic."

Again, people sometimes perceive very differently. There have been people over the years who have noticed the beauty and spirituality in some of his writing. A band on the soundtrack to the  recent popular movie "The Fault in our stars" used some of his writing in a song :

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Dylan's writing have a more lyrical/poetic feel to them, I'll give you that. I'm just not sure if it amounts to much besides the ravings of a sick mind. I really don't get the feeling Dylan was sitting there just pondering these things, I get the feeling he was driving himself

Oh no, absolutely not, feel free to disagree with me. The quote that come to my mind is "There's a thin line between genius and insanity" I'm just letting you know which one I think Dylan chose.

Well yeah, I know he didn't choose it, he did however choose to kill people. Killing people is not petty, as a matter of fact, it's probably the least petty thing you can do. I'm sorry I know you didn't say that here, but you did say it. How do you see it that way? I'm honestly curious.

Not to completely ruin this conversation, but I think Dylan was a fucking wack job.......seriously.

lol wrote:

Not to completely ruin this conversation, but I think Dylan was a fucking wack job.......seriously.

Seriously, I completely agree.

The only thing I said I thought was petty was Judy Brown running home to call the police because she saw Eric buying a gun magazine. I never .ever said the killings were petty or anything like that. You were totally mistaken about that.
Obviously, the taking of a life or lives is not a petty thing although some lives don't seem to be valued much in society.
I was an angry abused outcast all throughout my school years as was a close friend of mine. The abuse was every day and by most of the school population and it was severe. We are both deeply affected by it to this day.
We were extremely rageful and bitter and went down the same path E&D did and wanted to do a shooting of our own. For several reasons it did not get far past the planning stages which I consider the grace of God. Because of this I feel I have some insight into E &D and what they were thinking and feeling at least through some of their last years than maybe someone who has not been through it.
Now ,the whole thing just makes me incredibly sad. Every aspect of it is such a massive tragedy.
I mainly tend to feel just overwhelming sadness.

PaintItBlack wrote:

The only thing I said I thought was petty was Judy Brown running home to call the police because she saw Eric buying a gun magazine. I never .ever said the killings were petty or anything like that. You were totally mistaken about that.
Obviously, the taking of a life or lives is not a petty thing although some lives don't seem to be valued much in society.
I was an angry abused outcast all throughout my school years as was a close friend of mine. The abuse was every day and by most of the school population and it was severe. We are both deeply affected by it to this day.
We were extremely rageful and bitter and went down the same path E&D did and wanted to do a shooting of our own. For several reasons it did not get far past the planning stages which I consider the grace of God. Because of this I feel I have some insight into E &D and what they were thinking and feeling at least through some of their last years than maybe someone who has not been through it.
Now ,the whole thing just makes me incredibly sad. Every aspect of it is such a massive tragedy.
I mainly tend to feel just overwhelming sadness.

Sorry I took that out of context. No hard feelings.