What if they were caught before the suicides?

Another speculation topic.

What if Eric and Dylan were caught by the police or the SWAT team before they committed suicide? Do you think it is a realistic scenario in any way?

One SWAT team member said in one of the documentaries made that they were ordered as follows: If anyone comes out of that school building wearing a trench coat and guns in hands, they are to be shot.

So if SWAT team member(s) would have entered the library before the suicides, would they immediately shoot E/D dead, or would there be a possibility of first disarming them and then arresting them? They could have shot E/D in the legs and hands, right?

How do you think E/D would have acted in court? Would they have put the blame on each other? As Eric was thought to be the great mastermind, do you think Dylan's defence would try to play on that?

And what about the sentences? I often hear that Eric would have gotten the death penalty, because he was 18, and Dylan would have got life in prison without a parole, because he was 17. I don't believe that. Their age difference was trivial, and I think they should and would have gotten the same verdict, which probably would have been death.

In that scenario they would most likely be dead by now. For example, Timothy McVeigh did the Oklahoma City bombing in 1995 and was executed six years later in 2001.

Do you think that E/D would have been killed in prison by inmates (like Dahmer)? They would have been so infamous and hated (child killers) that there's no way they could have lived with other inmates.

And my last question: Do you think there is any realistic scenario in which Eric and Dylan would be alive today in 2015?

Imagine if they were alive, or even if they would have been alive for some time after the shootings. We might have so many questions answered.

But no, as is the anatomy of school shootings, it ends with suicide. Eric and Dylan, Cho, Adam Lanza, Jeff Weise, the two school shooters in Finland, those in Germany, and so on. Right now, the only school shooter in prison I can think of is Kip Kinkel. He failed to commit suicide when the other students jumped him. Oh, and the Jonesboro shooters are already out of prison (though, I'm not sure if at least one of them is back in prison. Drug problems.)

John Denver wrote:

Another speculation topic.

What if Eric and Dylan were caught by the police or the SWAT team before they committed suicide? Do you think it is a realistic scenario in any way?

One SWAT team member said in one of the documentaries made that they were ordered as follows: If anyone comes out of that school building wearing a trench coat and guns in hands, they are to be shot.

So if SWAT team member(s) would have entered the library before the suicides, would they immediately shoot E/D dead, or would there be a possibility of first disarming them and then arresting them? They could have shot E/D in the legs and hands, right?

How do you think E/D would have acted in court? Would they have put the blame on each other? As Eric was thought to be the great mastermind, do you think Dylan's defence would try to play on that?

And what about the sentences? I often hear that Eric would have gotten the death penalty, because he was 18, and Dylan would have got life in prison without a parole, because he was 17. I don't believe that. Their age difference was trivial, and I think they should and would have gotten the same verdict, which probably would have been death.

In that scenario they would most likely be dead by now. For example, Timothy McVeigh did the Oklahoma City bombing in 1995 and was executed six years later in 2001.

Do you think that E/D would have been killed in prison by inmates (like Dahmer)? They would have been so infamous and hated (child killers) that there's no way they could have lived with other inmates.

And my last question: Do you think there is any realistic scenario in which Eric and Dylan would be alive today in 2015?

Imagine if they were alive, or even if they would have been alive for some time after the shootings. We might have so many questions answered.

But no, as is the anatomy of school shootings, it ends with suicide. Eric and Dylan, Cho, Adam Lanza, Jeff Weise, the two school shooters in Finland, those in Germany, and so on. Right now, the only school shooter in prison I can think of is Kip Kinkel. He failed to commit suicide when the other students jumped him. Oh, and the Jonesboro shooters are already out of prison (though, I'm not sure if at least one of them is back in prison. Drug problems.)

very good question , i believe they were to try tackle them from behind or something , if they stood in a position to do so , thats classic swat manouver , you just dont see more swat equipment on them in the tv because they didnt have at the time , i believe .

John Denver wrote:

Right now, the only school shooter in prison I can think of is Kip Kinkel.

Here's a few more I found:

TJ Lane 2012 Chardon High School shooting

Brenda Spencer 1979 Cleveland Elementary School shooting

Andrew Wilson 2001 Santana High School shooting

I definitely think Dylan would have killed himself in jail.

I think they could have always waited for Dylan to become 18, and then charge him to be sentenced to death.

Or charge him as an adult.

I think its at least possible that E&D would have been captured by SWAT, if SWAT made a well organized assault with professional agents who knew what they were doing.
If SWAT surprised E&D, "jumped them" so to speak, then one flashbang grenade or other non-lethal tools in the SWAT arsenal (CS, "rubber ball grenades", tasers etc) would be enough to bring one or both shooters alive into custody.

Its also possible that even if Eric or Dylan were shot with live rounds, the wound might not prove fatal and they might have been taken to hospital and saved.

I'm sure if this happened, then Eric would try to behave in some ways similar to Breivik - try to hype up his actions, perhaps try to write a book, letters or otherwise try to engage in stuff to bring his issues to public attention. Eric looked up to McVeigh, so I think he would probably at least fall back on writing letters like he did.

Dylan? I'm not sure. I think its possible he would attempt suicide in prison, perhaps get himself locked in a mental institution instead.

Sabratha wrote:

I think its at least possible that E&D would have been captured by SWAT, if SWAT made a well organized assault with professional agents who knew what they were doing.
If SWAT surprised E&D, "jumped them" so to speak, then one flashbang grenade or other non-lethal tools in the SWAT arsenal (CS, "rubber ball grenades", tasers etc) would be enough to bring one or both shooters alive into custody.

Its also possible that even if Eric or Dylan were shot with live rounds, the wound might not prove fatal and they might have been taken to hospital and saved.

I'm sure if this happened, then Eric would try to behave in some ways similar to Breivik - try to hype up his actions, perhaps try to write a book, letters or otherwise try to engage in stuff to bring his issues to public attention. Eric looked up to McVeigh, so I think he would probably at least fall back on writing letters like he did.

Dylan? I'm not sure. I think its possible he would attempt suicide in prison, perhaps get himself locked in a mental institution instead.

i stand by all that but i think dylan were to suffer the same fate as eric .

I have always thought they'd have avoided the death penalty. I see James Holmes managed to for a not too dissimilar spree.

Radioactive_Clothing wrote:

I have always thought they'd have avoided the death penalty. I see James Holmes managed to for a not too dissimilar spree.

Hard to say, depends on how they would play their legal cards. I'm sure Dylan would avoid the death penalty - on the money of his family and the quality lawyers that the family turned out to have when people tried to lawsuit the Klebolds after 4/20.

Eric? I'm less sure of his chances. I can imagine a scenario where Eric get's the death penalty and Dylan lifetime in jail, but I can't imagine a feasible scenario with it being the other way around.

Dylan probably couldn't have been given the death penalty, for one he was 17 when the crime was committed and if I'm not mistaken, that would automatically mean he wouldn't be eligible for the death penalty.

Plus people kinda automatically came to the strange conclusion that Dylan was somehow less culpable, however, I think if they had lived and those basement tapes were played for everyone that would get rid of that illusion.

Eric might have gotten the death penalty. I would have to assume that he couldn't claim insanity. He repeats over and over again that he is choosing to kill because he wants to. So, there's a good chance he would have been sentenced to death.

In the meantime, they would have been held in seg, because the case was so high profile.

Eric would've blamed Dylan like he did in the van report.

Only one person has been executed in Colorado since 1967. Nathan Dunlap in Colorado has been on death row for almost twenty years. Had they been arrested Eric and Dylan would be alive today.

lasttrain wrote:

Eric would've blamed Dylan like he did in the van report.  

Only one person has been executed in Colorado since 1967. Nathan Dunlap in Colorado has been on death row for almost twenty years. Had they been arrested Eric and Dylan would be alive today.

I agree that Eric probably would have blamed Dylan, and Dylan probably would have said that they both wanted to do this.

I' not entirely sure Dylan would blame both while Eric would blame Dylan.

There's a vivid difference between a van brake in and a shooting that has been planned by them for such a long time. Especially since both have said and written that this is their great master plan, their life's ultimate goal.

Eric in particular I think would find it hard to back down from it, blame Dylan, plead insanity or anything like that. I'm pretty sure he'd follow McVeigh, Breivik or Kaczynski and "stick to his guns". Dylan probably as well.

There's also the possibility that the van break in was Dylan's idea...just sayin.

The Klebold family would have the best criminal defense lawyer money could buy. They would get Dylan a deal to pin it all on Eric who would get the death penalty. Dylan would get life w/ possibility of parole. After twenty years....

Nah... they'd both kill themselves the first time they were left alone in a cell without a straitjacket.

I don't think Eric would have blamed Dylan. After all, the shooting was his ultimate goal and he was making a statement. If he were to pass over the blame and say it wasn't his idea, his fault etc. then he would kind of render his part in the shooting pointless. I think he would rather own it than make himself out to be an impressionable follower of Dylan. The van incident was a whole different story since the crimes are obviously on entirely different levels. I also honestly believe that Dylan would (if not given the death sentence) kill himself or get killed in prison. In reality, he wasn't a hardened criminal, merely a gangly teen with the power of guns. In a max security prison where everybody fights for everything, he probably wouldn't make it one week.

I don't think it would have happened, even if the SWAT surprised them they were hell bent on dying, they would have done something to make SWAT shoot them, and if they were shot and able to do so they would have set off a bomb (Cricket or one of the others) to finish the job.

deathmedic wrote:

I don't think it would have happened, even if the SWAT surprised them they were hell bent on dying, they would have done something to make SWAT shoot them, and if they were shot and able to do so they would have set off a bomb (Cricket or one of the others) to finish the job.

I agree, as soon as they thought SWAT were coming in they killed themselves. If SWAT would have acted quicker and better, less people would have died, but only because E&D would have killed themselves quicker.

Oh Eric would definitely have found it hard to blame Dylan.

But that doesn't mean he wouldn't have tried. He would have done anything to avoid escaping responsibility for his actions.

lasttrain wrote:

Oh Eric would definitely have found it hard to blame Dylan.

But that doesn't mean he wouldn't have tried.  He would have done anything to avoid escaping responsibility for his actions.  

I completely disagree. I don't think we can really look at the van incident as an example, because the crime was just so minor. It didn't really mean anything to Eric: it wasn't a statement and it wasn't revenge against the owner or anyone else. The shooting however, was the biggest thing that had ever happened in his whole life, served as revenge against the school and society he had hated, and was his one final statement. Had he survived, he would have already been well aware that he was in deep shit, and he was going down. To deny responsibility and pass the blame on to Dylan would essential cast him as an easily impressionable, pathetic, push over who would murder just to impress a friend. I don't think he could face that. He was so angry and determined, the massacre meant literaly everything to him - I cannot see him throwing all his hard work away just for the posibility of serving his entire life in prison instead of being sentenced to die, which he wanted to do anyway.

eli27 wrote:

lasttrain wrote:

Oh Eric would definitely have found it hard to blame Dylan.

But that doesn't mean he wouldn't have tried.  He would have done anything to avoid escaping responsibility for his actions.  

I completely disagree. I don't think we can really look at the van incident as an example, because the crime was just so minor. It didn't really mean anything to Eric: it wasn't a statement and it wasn't revenge against the owner or anyone else. The shooting however, was the biggest thing that had ever happened in his whole life, served as revenge against the school and society he had hated, and was his one final statement. Had he survived, he would have already been well aware that he was in deep shit, and he was going down. To deny responsibility and pass the blame on to Dylan would essential cast him as an easily impressionable, pathetic, push over who would murder just to impress a friend. I don't think he could face that. He was so angry and determined, the massacre meant literaly everything to him - I cannot see him throwing all his hard work away just for the posibility of serving his entire life in prison instead of being sentenced to die, which he wanted to do anyway.

I agree, Eric was very adamant about letting everyone know that this was what he wanted to do, he made it clear a few times that he didn't want anyone or anything else getting the blame.

Plus what makes everyone so sure breaking into the van wasn't Dylan's idea. That would make Eric more of a snitch and less of a liar who was just trying to shift the blame. Of course, he was just as culpable but the original idea might not have come from him.

aubre wrote:

Plus what makes everyone so sure breaking into the van wasn't Dylan's idea.

Pretty sure it was.

Gustopoet2 wrote:

The Klebold family would have the best criminal defense lawyer money could buy. They would get Dylan a deal to pin it all on Eric who would get the death penalty. Dylan would get life w/ possibility of parole. After twenty years....

Nah... they'd both kill themselves the first time they were left alone in a cell without a straitjacket.

I strongly agree

And it makes me laugh how the crazed fangirls from Tumblr insisted that Dylan wasn't rich. Give me a break. Their family is/was LOADED. Dylan was such an ungrateful bastard in the house he lived in.

lol wrote:

And it makes me laugh how the crazed fangirls from Tumblr insisted that Dylan wasn't rich. Give me a break. Their family is/was LOADED. Dylan was such an ungrateful bastard in the house he lived in.

Not everyone is satsified by materialistic things. (I'm not saying this is what you think) but it is unjust to say that he should have just been happy with the money of his parents and that that should have satisified him enough to love the earth and want to lead a good life. He was miserable.

eli27 wrote:

lol wrote:

And it makes me laugh how the crazed fangirls from Tumblr insisted that Dylan wasn't rich. Give me a break. Their family is/was LOADED. Dylan was such an ungrateful bastard in the house he lived in.

Not everyone is satsified by materialistic things. (I'm not saying this is what you think) but it is unjust to say that he should have just been happy with the money of his parents and that that should have satisified him enough to love the earth and want to lead a good life. He was miserable.

Yes, it is what money can't do that is the big problem. And what it can't do is a lot.

Gustopoet2 wrote:

The Klebold family would have the best criminal defense lawyer money could buy. They would get Dylan a deal to pin it all on Eric who would get the death penalty. Dylan would get life w/ possibility of parole. After twenty years....

Nah... they'd both kill themselves the first time they were left alone in a cell without a straitjacket.

I doubt Eric would. I think he would get the death penalty then go through with it. Of course its just specilatio0n, but I think he would fall back on what he knew and remembered about McVeigh - probably also write letters and try to publicise himself.

Its just a guess of course, but I think the McVeigh connectiuon is significant here.

Sabratha wrote:

I doubt Eric would. I think he would get the death penalty then go through with it. Of course its just specilatio0n, but I think he would fall back on what he knew and remembered about McVeigh - probably also write letters and try to publicise himself.

Its just a guess of course, but I think the McVeigh connectiuon is significant here.

That's a good point. There was a strong connection between NBK and the "angry white male" movement.

If Eric was placed in general population though I don't think he'd last long. American prisons are hellish. It is really rough even in the county jails. A shrimp like Eric would literally have to fight every day just to get a few scraps of food or to use the phone.

I don't think it was as much as the "angry white male", as it was eric looking up to McVeigh for the bodycount, but also for teh fatc that McVeigh was a war hero, a professional military man and he produced and delivered the explosives in a professional manner.

McVeigh was also bright and outspoken. I'm not sure if Eric ready any of McVeighs letters, but if he did he might have also been impressed by the fatc that this was not a dumb slob with a bomb.

Sabratha wrote:

I don't think it was as much as the "angry white male", as it was eric looking up to McVeigh for the bodycount, but also for teh fatc that McVeigh was a war hero, a professional military man and he produced and delivered the explosives in a professional manner.

McVeigh was also bright and outspoken. I'm not sure if Eric ready any of McVeighs letters, but if he did he might have also been impressed by the fatc that this was not a dumb slob with a bomb.

I was keying off of Larkin's book. I didn't want to quote from it directly because I just quoted a crap-load of passages debating the bullying issue with lasttrain in another thread. But since you've broached the topic....

Larkin doesn't make a direct connection between McVeigh and the boys nor does he claim that "angry white male" is anything other than a generic term for a disaffected, anti-government groups, largely based on "white supremacy, antiSemiticsm, fundamentalist Christianity, patriarchy, and hostility to the Federal government" (p. 166).

Larkin claims that "The Revolt of the Angry White Male" started with "the standoff between marshals and right wing anti-Semite Randy Weaver and his family at Ruby Ridge, Idaho." He also notes that "It culminated with the bombing of the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City in 1996."

Neither the OC bombing or NBk were strictly about "high body count." They were political acts, driven by the political/cultural elements that Larkin has cited, plus many others. I agree with his assessment that "Harris and Klebold constituted themselves as a self-defined paramilitary cell of two."

This is evident even in the way they dressed for NBK. It was a theatrical, political statement. They were willing to take lives and give their own lives to make this statement.  It is not necessary to dress up, get custom t-shirts made, write manifestos and journals, film videos, make taped recordings, and scream out your intentions over and over again through a multimedia platform to get "a high body count."

In fact doing those things before the fact (which the boys continuously did) risks compromising the high body count altogether. If they are not political statements then they are superfluous, self-sabotaging acts. This would mean that Eric was himself was literally "a dumb slob with a bomb."

He wasn't.

Political statement is a big term, although I could see this as a description of what Eric was doing. Dylan much less so, for Dylan it was all about himself really.

I do think Eric was making obvious ideological statements in his journal (even if often in a clumsy way or placed in between longer passages on other issues). Still, its certainly ceear he did not start a political party, had no wider movement he was a part of. So I'd rather use the term "ideological statement" ratehr than "political statement", but its a minor nuance.

Certianly Eric did not see himself as a member of the same group as McVeigh (who was far too christian for Eric). I do think he looked up to McVeigh cold, military professional altitude, but he didn't share his politicla views. I think Larkin's "nazi paramilitary" idea is nonsense.

I moreover feel that the whole sociological argument Larkin makes is pointless. Eric and Dylan were hardly representatives of any big social group. This was an individualistic act of violence if tehre ever was one.

Sabratha wrote:

I moreover feel that the whole sociological argument Larkin makes is pointless. Eric and Dylan were hardly representatives of any big social group. This was an individualistic act of violence if tehre ever was one.

That's not what Larkin is saying, Sabratha. You've clean missed the point here. Larkin is simply providing a sociopolitical background for their "individual" act of violence. He accepts their self-designation as an "army of two." How could he not? It is an incredibly obvious aspect of the case. No-one that I know of, least of all Larkin, is suggesting that boys were part of any group whatsoever. They were informed by the sociopolitical climate of 1990's America but they acted, for he most part, as a two-man team. You don't need numbers to make a political statement in America; you only need death.

Larkin makes some good interviews, then he completely fails to make sense with his interpretation. He makes Cullen look good.

Sabratha wrote:

Larkin makes some good interviews, then he completely fails to make sense with his interpretation. He makes Cullen look good.

Wow, care to provide any evidence for what you are saying? Ah, why bother -- just make blanket statement after blanket statement without a shred of evidence. How very Cullen-like. All that shows is that you haven't read Larkin very deeply.

Gustopoet2 wrote:

Sabratha wrote:

Larkin makes some good interviews, then he completely fails to make sense with his interpretation. He makes Cullen look good.

Wow, care to provide any evidence for what you are saying? Ah, why bother -- just make blanket statement after blanket statement without a shred of evidence. How very Cullen-like. All that shows is that you haven't read Larkin very deeply.

Check the Larkinbine thread for specific instances of Larkin failing to make sense or going by false evidence.

Sabratha wrote:

Gustopoet2 wrote:

Sabratha wrote:

Larkin makes some good interviews, then he completely fails to make sense with his interpretation. He makes Cullen look good.

Wow, care to provide any evidence for what you are saying? Ah, why bother -- just make blanket statement after blanket statement without a shred of evidence. How very Cullen-like. All that shows is that you haven't read Larkin very deeply.

Check the Larkinbine thread for specific instances of Larkin failing to make sense or going by false evidence.

I saw it. I responded. I left.

It's just a bunch of nitpicking. It might be interesting if you could argue with some of his actual conclusions rather than just his lapses in biographical interpretation.

Forex, I feel that Cullen's basic premise that Eric Harris was the leader of NBK is wrong. I can muster evidence to demonstrate that Cullen is wrong. I take issue with his assertion that Eric was a psychopath; I can find evidence to support this assertion. I'm not just ransacking Cullen's book for solecisms and factual errata (Thank God -- where would it end?!?) -- I am engaging with his thesis.You're entitled to your opinion, but my personal take on Larkin is that Comprehending Columbine is a sound, scholarly work on the sociological aspects of the case. It is an important, almost indispensable source for serious research imho.