Empathy for the killers?

I'm sure that nobody (in their right mind) condones what Eric and Dylan did, but I'm curious as to the general consensus over how people here feel about the shooters. From what I've read and 'been taught', so to speak, I do have a degree of empathy for the killers. I don't let it overshadow their victims, however.

Hopefully I'm not completely ostracizing myself here. Sorry if I'm way out of line.

I don't know if I feel empathy for them, but I do feel sad that nobody in their lives recognized any signs and didn't intervene to help either of them.

I don't know how I feel towards the killers. Part of me utterly hates them for what they did and part of me does feel bad that their lives got to that point...the point of killing then killing themselves.

Oh I definitely feel empathy for Eric and Dylan.

eli27 wrote:

Oh I definitely feel empathy for Eric and Dylan.

Initially I hated them myself, but some of my experiences in life regarding Columbine changed my perception of them. That being said, I don't think I can really blame anyone if they hated them either.

Empathy is the capacity to understand or feel what another being (a human or non-human animal) is experiencing from within the other being's frame of reference, i.e., the capacity to place oneself in another's position.

I will write more about this later.

I feel like if they both got girls who they really liked to date them, it would of changed their whole attitudes.

slippy123 wrote:

I feel like if they both got girls who they really liked to date them,  it would of changed their whole attitudes.

It might have changed their attitudes but would it have been enough? Eric really just had a hatred for the world, I don't know if a girl would have changed his outlook on life. I do think that all Dylan ever wanted was love and affection from a girl.

Probably more Dylan then Eric, although alot of Erics hatred did come from people not including him in things and girls paying no attention. Not to be raunchy, but I mean the power of some good vagina is a very strong thing, lol.

The social atmosphere of Columbine High School was full of hypocritical Christians, jocks who could get away with stuff that others couldn't, teachers turning a blind eye to some students pain, etc.


Within that atmosphere, I do empathize with the way the "outcasts" were treated.


Being ostracized by hypocritical Christians can make people hate religious people, and all their "so called" godliness. That can drive someone to hate.


Being treated unfairly within an atmosphere where you get treated differently than others do can lead you to hate.


Plus, the van break in may have been a tipping point for Eric and Dylan that really fueled their anger and resentment towards cops, Littleton, and Columbine High School in general.


It seems like Eric and Dylan targeted their rage mostly onto cops and Columbine High School.


Perhaps, if there was a more balanced environment for Eric and Dylan to live in, that may have helped to appease some of their rage. But, the injustice had gone on for so long that they decided that were going to strike back in the way that they wanted to.


Of course, not everybody would react the way they did, but in their mind, this was, as Eric said, "ultimate fucking revenge here".

I have sympathy for them both for being so obviously tortured and mentally ill. This does not excuse what they did by any means, but I will never hate them as people. I abhor what they did. But reading Dylan's journal and all the surprisingly beautiful, heart-wrenching, deep, or even just standard teenage fare in it made ir impossible for me to hate and "other" him. It made me realize that every human on Earth has goodness and kindness and even love in them. That lesson is now the cornerstone of my spirituality and I even wear a ring engraved with "Love is more valuable than anything I know. To love is to enter a completion of oneself." on the outside and Dylan's name and dates on the inside, a purity ring of sorts except instead of being against sex it's to remind me to see the good in everyone.

WendlaBergman wrote:

I have sympathy for them both for being so obviously tortured and mentally ill. This does not excuse what they did by any means, but I will never hate them as people. I abhor what they did. But reading Dylan's journal and all the surprisingly beautiful, heart-wrenching, deep, or even just standard teenage fare in it made ir impossible for me to hate and "other" him. It made me realize that every human on Earth has goodness and kindness and even love in them. That lesson is now the cornerstone of my spirituality and I even wear a ring engraved with "Love is more valuable than anything I know. To love is to enter a completion of oneself." on the outside and Dylan's name and dates on the inside, a purity ring of sorts except instead of being against sex it's to remind me to see the good in everyone.

That's cool. As I'm sure I've said numerous times, one of my good friends knew Dylan as a child and he sort of inspired her to go into criminal justice and psychology. She helped me see him as a person.

OffthechainJoehovah wrote:

WendlaBergman wrote:

I have sympathy for them both for being so obviously tortured and mentally ill. This does not excuse what they did by any means, but I will never hate them as people. I abhor what they did. But reading Dylan's journal and all the surprisingly beautiful, heart-wrenching, deep, or even just standard teenage fare in it made ir impossible for me to hate and "other" him. It made me realize that every human on Earth has goodness and kindness and even love in them. That lesson is now the cornerstone of my spirituality and I even wear a ring engraved with "Love is more valuable than anything I know. To love is to enter a completion of oneself." on the outside and Dylan's name and dates on the inside, a purity ring of sorts except instead of being against sex it's to remind me to see the good in everyone.

That's cool. As I'm sure I've said numerous times, one of my good friends knew Dylan as a child and he sort of inspired her to go into criminal justice and psychology. She helped me see him as a person.

How old were they both when she knew him? I remember you saying that their mothers were coworkers.

WendlaBergman wrote:

OffthechainJoehovah wrote:

WendlaBergman wrote:

I have sympathy for them both for being so obviously tortured and mentally ill. This does not excuse what they did by any means, but I will never hate them as people. I abhor what they did. But reading Dylan's journal and all the surprisingly beautiful, heart-wrenching, deep, or even just standard teenage fare in it made ir impossible for me to hate and "other" him. It made me realize that every human on Earth has goodness and kindness and even love in them. That lesson is now the cornerstone of my spirituality and I even wear a ring engraved with "Love is more valuable than anything I know. To love is to enter a completion of oneself." on the outside and Dylan's name and dates on the inside, a purity ring of sorts except instead of being against sex it's to remind me to see the good in everyone.

That's cool. As I'm sure I've said numerous times, one of my good friends knew Dylan as a child and he sort of inspired her to go into criminal justice and psychology. She helped me see him as a person.

How old were they both when she knew him? I remember you saying that their mothers were coworkers.

He was maybe 16 at least and she was probably 6. She met him a few times before the massacre and she said there's a picture somewhere of them together in which Dylan is holding her I believe.

OffthechainJoehovah wrote:

WendlaBergman wrote:

OffthechainJoehovah wrote:

WendlaBergman wrote:

I have sympathy for them both for being so obviously tortured and mentally ill. This does not excuse what they did by any means, but I will never hate them as people. I abhor what they did. But reading Dylan's journal and all the surprisingly beautiful, heart-wrenching, deep, or even just standard teenage fare in it made ir impossible for me to hate and "other" him. It made me realize that every human on Earth has goodness and kindness and even love in them. That lesson is now the cornerstone of my spirituality and I even wear a ring engraved with "Love is more valuable than anything I know. To love is to enter a completion of oneself." on the outside and Dylan's name and dates on the inside, a purity ring of sorts except instead of being against sex it's to remind me to see the good in everyone.

That's cool. As I'm sure I've said numerous times, one of my good friends knew Dylan as a child and he sort of inspired her to go into criminal justice and psychology. She helped me see him as a person.

How old were they both when she knew him? I remember you saying that their mothers were coworkers.

He was maybe 16 at least and she was probably 6. She met him a few times before the massacre and she said there's a picture somewhere of them together in which Dylan is holding her I believe.

Awww! Oh my goodness, that sounds precious. That really does humanize him.

"Empathy" may not be possible in reality because nobody can know exactly what it's like to be another person and have their experiences. Most of what people call empathy ends up being projection, which can be unfair. If you mean "willing to try to understand their thoughts/feelings on their own terms and in their own words," then yes I do.

I've been actively trying to put myself in similar situations as the ones they were in, watching the movies they watched, exploring the hobbies they had, and thinking "if I were them, with their tendencies and thought patterns and general way of reacting to situations, what would this be like?" It's interesting, but from a research standpoint the discoveries and information are too subjective for a lot of people and run the risk of being inseparable from talking/whining about myself. And there's always the risk of falling into projection trap. When you get too immersed in Eric or Dylan's personalities, trying to articulately and concisely describe them is like trying to bite your own teeth.

WendlaBergman wrote:

OffthechainJoehovah wrote:

WendlaBergman wrote:

OffthechainJoehovah wrote:

WendlaBergman wrote:

I have sympathy for them both for being so obviously tortured and mentally ill. This does not excuse what they did by any means, but I will never hate them as people. I abhor what they did. But reading Dylan's journal and all the surprisingly beautiful, heart-wrenching, deep, or even just standard teenage fare in it made ir impossible for me to hate and "other" him. It made me realize that every human on Earth has goodness and kindness and even love in them. That lesson is now the cornerstone of my spirituality and I even wear a ring engraved with "Love is more valuable than anything I know. To love is to enter a completion of oneself." on the outside and Dylan's name and dates on the inside, a purity ring of sorts except instead of being against sex it's to remind me to see the good in everyone.

That's cool. As I'm sure I've said numerous times, one of my good friends knew Dylan as a child and he sort of inspired her to go into criminal justice and psychology. She helped me see him as a person.

How old were they both when she knew him? I remember you saying that their mothers were coworkers.

He was maybe 16 at least and she was probably 6. She met him a few times before the massacre and she said there's a picture somewhere of them together in which Dylan is holding her I believe.

Awww! Oh my goodness, that sounds precious. That really does humanize him.

I'm sorry, I am currently overwhelmed by how painfully CUTE Dylan could be. brain ceasefunction revert to process:awwwww kitty cat

Empathy? Sure, but when I think about E&D I always just see wasted potential. They were smart kids, they weren't ugly, yes they were bullied for their looks, hobbies, interests etc. but it's such a waste that they couldn't grasp the bigger picture and look above all that. I remember one member here saying how he/she (sorry can't remember who it was!) felt nothing but anger about Eric and Dylan when he/she visited columbine high school as it seemed to be a great place to go to school to and a great place to spend teenage years in, improve on yourself and they just tried to destroy it. Yes the social life may have been unbearable there but again, why not see the bigger picture? It's only 4 years, be above the situation, enjoy it etc.

Not to mention they lived in a great place, had good families, had great homes (especially Dylan), seemed busy, they had hobbies, they worked, they even had cars! They had their own money from those summer jobs, they played the latest video games, bought CDs of the music they liked...

I wonder sometimes, what the hell went wrong?

gasolinechild wrote:

"Empathy" may not be possible in reality because nobody can know exactly what it's like to be another person and have their experiences.  Most of what people call empathy ends up being projection, which can be unfair.  If you mean "willing to try to understand their thoughts/feelings on their own terms and in their own words," then yes I do.

I've been actively trying to put myself in similar situations as the ones they were in, watching the movies they watched, exploring the hobbies they had, and thinking "if I were them, with their tendencies and thought patterns and general way of reacting to situations, what would this be like?" It's interesting, but from a research standpoint the discoveries and information are too subjective for a lot of people and run the risk of being inseparable from talking/whining about myself.  And there's always the risk of falling into projection trap.  When you get too immersed in Eric or Dylan's personalities, trying to articulately and concisely describe them is like trying to bite your own teeth.

Didn't Eric talk about trying to bite his own teeth in his journal?

thedude11 wrote:

Empathy? Sure, but when I think about E&D I always just see wasted potential. They were smart kids, they weren't ugly, yes they were bullied for their looks, hobbies, interests etc. but it's such a waste that they couldn't grasp the bigger picture and look above all that. I remember one member here saying how he/she (sorry can't remember who it was!) felt nothing but anger about Eric and Dylan when he/she visited columbine high school as it seemed to be a great place to go to school to and a great place to spend teenage years in, improve on yourself and they just tried to destroy it. Yes the social life may have been unbearable there but again, why not see the bigger picture? It's only 4 years, be above the situation, enjoy it etc.

Not to mention they lived in a great place, had good families, had great homes (especially Dylan), seemed busy, they had hobbies, they worked, they even had cars! They had their own money from those summer jobs, they played the latest video games, bought CDs of the music they liked...

I wonder sometimes, what the hell went wrong?  

What you wrote makes me think of this video. There's some minor inaccuracies, but overall I like what's being said in it.

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Trying To Define Yourself Is Like Trying To Bite Your Own Teeth by Eric 10-12-98

OffthechainJoehovah wrote:

gasolinechild wrote:

"Empathy" may not be possible in reality because nobody can know exactly what it's like to be another person and have their experiences.  Most of what people call empathy ends up being projection, which can be unfair.  If you mean "willing to try to understand their thoughts/feelings on their own terms and in their own words," then yes I do.

I've been actively trying to put myself in similar situations as the ones they were in, watching the movies they watched, exploring the hobbies they had, and thinking "if I were them, with their tendencies and thought patterns and general way of reacting to situations, what would this be like?" It's interesting, but from a research standpoint the discoveries and information are too subjective for a lot of people and run the risk of being inseparable from talking/whining about myself.  And there's always the risk of falling into projection trap.  When you get too immersed in Eric or Dylan's personalities, trying to articulately and concisely describe them is like trying to bite your own teeth.

Didn't Eric talk about trying to bite his own teeth in his journal?

In one of his school essays.  It was a quote from Alan Watts that he was writing about.
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"Trying to define yourself is like trying to bite your own teeth" Oct 12 1998 by Eric     Page 026202:

I interpret this to mean that you can't define yourself, no matter how hard you try or for how long, it is impossible. This is most definitely true. Personally I have been trying to define who I am, to put myself under some sort of category, to somehow help myself understand who I am and what I stand for. It seems like every week my point of view changes on people, but yet it stays the same. What a paradox huh. Minds change constantly, whenever I try to figure something out that means something to me I can never come up with an exact conclusion. There is always exceptions and stuff. I don't think humans are meant to define themselves, we just make quick judgments and go with that. Sometimes we will spend an entire lifetime trying to figure out someone and even after that length of time we still can't possibly know everything about that person. The same goes for ourselves, just when we think we know who we are when a new event happens that throws everything we knew about ourselves out the window.

OffthechainJoehovah wrote:

thedude11 wrote:

Empathy? Sure, but when I think about E&D I always just see wasted potential. They were smart kids, they weren't ugly, yes they were bullied for their looks, hobbies, interests etc. but it's such a waste that they couldn't grasp the bigger picture and look above all that. I remember one member here saying how he/she (sorry can't remember who it was!) felt nothing but anger about Eric and Dylan when he/she visited columbine high school as it seemed to be a great place to go to school to and a great place to spend teenage years in, improve on yourself and they just tried to destroy it. Yes the social life may have been unbearable there but again, why not see the bigger picture? It's only 4 years, be above the situation, enjoy it etc.

Not to mention they lived in a great place, had good families, had great homes (especially Dylan), seemed busy, they had hobbies, they worked, they even had cars! They had their own money from those summer jobs, they played the latest video games, bought CDs of the music they liked...

I wonder sometimes, what the hell went wrong?  

What you wrote makes me think of this video. There's some minor inaccuracies, but overall I like what's being said in it.

Wow nice, never seen this!

I can feel lots of empathy for people that have committed horrible crimes

Its not morally right, regardless how you put it, to murder someone, but I can sometimes, yes.


I honestly feel much more empathy for Dylan and some other school shooters, because I believe many of them suffered horribly before they committed their crimes. I honestly dont see it as a bad thing as long as you dont get carried away with it. Empathy can be a good thing.


Dylan certainly suffered from severe depression and its hard not to emphasize, even if what he did is a pretty fucked up thing to do.

I can emphasise with them because of the bullying they went through and the obvious mental issues they suffered with.

Sometimes I feel a certain empathy, as they mentioned for issues like bullying and mental illness, sometimes I feel guilty about that. I have felt empathy for shooters like Cho when I read his writings, and even randy stair or Eric Harris ... although sometimes I feel guilty I was always an extremely empathetic person and i feel sorry or relate to many things that happened to some killers

I suggest whenever you are feeling empathetic after reading some bullshit Dylan wrote in his journal or you see a photo of Eric when he looking cute in his Halloween costume that you go and play the 911 library call back again for yourself.

“Yahoo!”

“Die, Motherfucker!”

“Peek-a-boo!“

“Hey Reb, there’s a nigger over here!“
“Kill him!“
“No, no, no... Mom!“

Those fucks are rotting in hell.

I felt empathy in that I could relate to thinking about mass killing. Doing a mass killing.

Do I feel bad for the killers at all? Not really. Maybe for Dylan because he needed help mentally and possibly Eric too.

I don't know how to describe the feelings I have about this topic. I abhor and can't condone what they did. Yet I empathize with them both for the people they were before the shooting. But then I listen to the 911 call, read the witness statements, or watch the news coverage of Columbine and it snaps me back to the reality of what they both ultimately ended up doing. It's so hard to deal with both of these emotions/realizations at once.

With E&D? Not really.

For Dylan, yes. Its kind of weird, but I do feel empathy for some of them. Especially the kids that comes from broken homes or have been abused or badly bullied.

With Eric and Dylan Im not really certain that they were bullied. Yet, according to a Secret service study, many of gen have been badly bullied, and they also have a history of mental illness.


So I do feel a sense of empathy. It cannot absolve people from responsobility, however