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 Question about E&D's state of mind after the library

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lasttrain
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PostSubject: Question about E&D's state of mind after the library   Question about E&D's state of mind after the library Icon_minitimeThu Mar 03, 2016 1:37 pm

Hello, I was reading a thread titled "If Eric hadn't broken his nose..." and I though I'd ask your opinions on a fact I never really understood.

Why do you think E&D (thankfully) stopped shooting people after they left the library?

I believe most of you know what the reports say about students hiding in classrooms seeing them aimlessly walking through the halls, some of them even making eye contact, and yet they didn't seem to care. Could Eric's injury be enough to stop, both of them, just like that? That's all it took? I don't think so. I mean, 16 minutes ago Dylan was, apparently, having the time of his life.

Maybe they, themselves, were kind of mortified with what they have experienced? It was their first time killing a human being. Or maybe their impression on how much damage they caused was false and they felt satisfied with the result? I don't know.
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slippy123

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PostSubject: Re: Question about E&D's state of mind after the library   Question about E&D's state of mind after the library Icon_minitimeThu Mar 03, 2016 4:30 pm

Known as the "quiet period". Maybe after the initial adrenaline wore off? Seemed like they were spending time trying to get the bombs to go off too.
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PostSubject: Re: Question about E&D's state of mind after the library   Question about E&D's state of mind after the library Icon_minitimeThu Mar 03, 2016 5:36 pm

I think a combination of many things like:

• They ran out of adrenalin. Remember those minutes they killed people probably felt like a whole lot longer than they actually were.
• They were tired. There’s evidence that they were both up very late and left home early that morning. They hadn’t got enough sleep.
• As weird as it sounds, after a while the killings only becomes a number. They probably thought they killed way more than “only” 13 people. It wasn’t fun anymore. The rush was over. They didn’t feel any remorse, because remember that they shot at cops and paramedics just minutes before their suicides.

Also, how much ammunition did they actually have left at this point? (I don’t know)


Too bad 911 hung up the call from the library… otherwise we would’ve heard their last conversation with each other.
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PostSubject: Re: Question about E&D's state of mind after the library   Question about E&D's state of mind after the library Icon_minitimeThu Mar 03, 2016 6:20 pm

Because they (Eric, in particular) seemed anxious to get down to the Cafeteria and find out why his bombs didn't go off. They went down there a few times and shot at it and threw smaller bombs at it to try and blow it up. Once they realized that it was a failed attempt at a bombing and their adrenaline was all gone, they decided it was time to end their lives.

And by this point in time, all the students were hiding in locked classrooms or were being evacuated. Eric was probably in a lot of pain and they were both probably tired.

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lasttrain




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PostSubject: Re: Question about E&D's state of mind after the library   Question about E&D's state of mind after the library Icon_minitimeFri Mar 04, 2016 12:58 am

To me the psychology of this is much more complex than any writer has described.

I think Eric and Dylan were absolutely repulsed by, if not remorseful about, killing up close. Remember there were students hiding under tables in the cafeteria whom they could see only feet away. Eric and Dylan seem to have completely ignored these students. They made a tacit agreement, while talking to Evan Todd, to stop shooting students.

What I hear on the library tape is two children trying to work themselves into a frenzy to prove something to each other. Eric screaming just seems weak to me, like he is trying to prove to Dylan that he is not rattled by the insane response his actions had evoked. Their going back to the library doesn't show they weren't bothered by the injured. It may show that they needed to remind themselves of what they'd really done in order to get the courage to commit suicide. This was not remorse but simply physical repulsion.
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PostSubject: Re: Question about E&D's state of mind after the library   Question about E&D's state of mind after the library Icon_minitimeFri Mar 04, 2016 4:52 am

lasttrain wrote:
To me the psychology of this is much more complex than any writer has described.  

I think Eric and Dylan were absolutely repulsed by, if not remorseful about, killing up close. Remember there were students hiding under tables in the cafeteria whom they could see only feet away.  Eric and Dylan seem to have completely ignored these students. They made a tacit agreement, while talking to Evan Todd, to stop shooting students.

What I hear on the library tape is two children trying to work themselves into a frenzy to prove something to each other. Eric screaming just seems weak to me, like he is trying to prove to Dylan that he is not rattled by the insane response his actions had evoked. Their going back to the library doesn't show they weren't bothered by the injured.  It may show that they needed to remind themselves of what they'd really done in order to get the courage to commit suicide. This was not remorse but simply physical repulsion.  

I agree and disagree. When they started the attack outside they were shooting at people from a distance. The only up close shot outside was from Dylan to Kirkland. In the library though they were shooting people within arms reach. I don't think they were truly prepared for up close kills because the original plan was to pick of the bomb survivors at a distance. Up close they had to deal with the screams, gunfire ringing in an enclosed area, the sound of metal piercing flesh, the smell of blood, etc.. The biggest issue was probably eye contact though. They looked those kids in the eyes before shooting them. That's heavy shit. We know they didnt go so far as to shoot people they spoke to. After the library they'd seen and experienced enough death and all that was left was suicide.

I don't believe for a second though that it was due to remorse. Yes the boys talked each other up thought the attack. "Sure Ill help you", "peekaboo", and "there's a ni**er over here" are words spoken by sadists though. The up close killing may have been too much for the boys to handle, but I feel like it was them having overstated their love of gore more than actual remorse. If anything Eric felt bad he gave his life for a "measly" 13 deaths.
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PostSubject: Re: Question about E&D's state of mind after the library   Question about E&D's state of mind after the library Icon_minitimeFri Mar 04, 2016 6:06 am

Why do you think they chose the library to commit suicide? They could have choosen another place, maybe a hidden one so the police would have kept searching them through the school for a while before being sure the manace was gone. This could have cause more trouble in a way.
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PostSubject: Re: Question about E&D's state of mind after the library   Question about E&D's state of mind after the library Icon_minitimeFri Mar 04, 2016 6:23 am

elia wrote:
Why do you think they chose the library to commit suicide? They could have choosen another place, maybe a hidden one so the police would have kept searching them through the school for a while before being sure the manace was gone. This could have cause more trouble in a way.

They originally thought they'd get killed by a shoot out with the cops. My guess is that when they shot out the library windows at police and SWAT, for the last time,
and saw how many police and the SWAT team were starting to descend on the school, they knew their time was limited. If they had any idea that it would be 3 hours before swat
entered the school, I think they wouldn't of killed themselves until a little bit later.
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PostSubject: Re: Question about E&D's state of mind after the library   Question about E&D's state of mind after the library Icon_minitimeFri Mar 04, 2016 10:23 am

elia wrote:
Why do you think they chose the library to commit suicide? They could have choosen another place, maybe a hidden one so the police would have kept searching them through the school for a while before being sure the manace was gone. This could have cause more trouble in a way.

We don’t know if they “chose” the library to kill themselves actually. Ultimately, they did kill themselves in there, but that could have been the result of basically anything. Were they afraid that cops would come in soon? Did they just feel that it was over? Could be number of things.

We know that they definitely didn’t want to be caught, they wanted to die. And from the library windows they shot at cops, paramedics and injured students just minutes before they killed themselves. So there was no remorse from their side the whole time up until they shot themselves in the head.
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PostSubject: Re: Question about E&D's state of mind after the library   Question about E&D's state of mind after the library Icon_minitimeFri Mar 04, 2016 2:03 pm

Thank you all for your valuable opinions.

It surely wasn't one specific reason causing this but when you think of all the preparation and "passion" they had put into it, it seems so odd that they just stopped. I'm sure that if someone only read their journals and didn't know the outcome of the attack would be pretty positive that nothing would and could stop E&D.

We know that they were screaming during the library killings but are we sure that this was fueled by joy for what they were doing and not to counter and deal with their own fear and shock deriving from what they're were experiencing? It was human bodies being blasted around them not tree logs.

Opinions you have provided:

- adrenaline/rush wearing off
- fatigue
- injury
- number of killings becoming insignificant
- anxious to check the bombs
- repulsion
- remorse
- ammunition running out/ SWAT closing in

For the sake of discussion allow me to comment on some opinions you have provided.

As regards fatigue, we're talking about two healthy 18 year olds. 18 year olds simply don't get tired that easily. Heck, when I was 18 and going through the (mandatory) army service of my country we would literally, for months, sleep for 4 hours and carry guns the rest of the day.

Injury. I read the London bombings inquests and some interviews of the injured of the Boston marathon bombing. People that lost limbs and the majority of them stated that not only they felt nothing but they didn't actually realize that they were injured. Breaking a nose is different of course, and i don't underestimate the pain, but I believe it could be handled.

Rushing to check on the bombs. Correct me if I'm wrong but their movements after leaving the library don't really indicate this. They were moving slowly, taking their time, shooting at basically nothing. Even when they reached the cafeteria they were taking their time.

One last question because I think it's important. When they reached the cafeteria did they actually see and not shoot remaining hiding students? Let's say they didn't want to go through the trouble of shooting classroom doors, what stopped them shooting those unprotected students? They were out in the open, nothing to protect them, E&D just had to pull the trigger.

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PostSubject: Re: Question about E&D's state of mind after the library   Question about E&D's state of mind after the library Icon_minitimeThu Mar 10, 2016 8:58 pm

I don't think it had anything to do with remorse or revulsion at all. I think they experienced the same kind of orgasmic rush associated with sex by their shootings, and having "spent" themselves in the library, they had a refractory period in which they regrouped and checked out what was going on (or not going on, to be more precise), in the cafeteria.

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PostSubject: Re: Question about E&D's state of mind after the library   Question about E&D's state of mind after the library Icon_minitimeFri Mar 11, 2016 9:20 am

I almost wonder if they were a bit disappointed because the 20 didn't go as planned? I mean they most likely had fantasies about how it was going to go in their minds for months prior....and that day...the bombs didn't explode so they couldn't shoot people as they ran, they ended up shooting kids hiding under tables....for the most part people were just hiding. No one really tried to fight back or run...., they leave the library and the halls are empty. No one is running around anymore. Everyone is hiding in classrooms etc....and then the cops show up and are just standing around outside staring at the building. They did briefly exchange some gunfire but I think they realized they were not going to have an epic shootout with the police. IDK I guess I just think they may have lost heart a bit when they realized their plan was pretty much a dud.

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PostSubject: Re: Question about E&D's state of mind after the library   Question about E&D's state of mind after the library Icon_minitimeThu Mar 17, 2016 12:52 pm

Lizpuff wrote:
I almost wonder if they were a bit disappointed because the 20 didn't go as planned?  I mean they most likely had fantasies about how it was going to go in their minds for months prior....and that day...the bombs didn't explode so they couldn't shoot people as they ran, they ended up shooting kids hiding under tables....for the most part people were just hiding.  No one really tried to fight back or run...., they leave the library and the halls are empty.  No one is running around anymore.  Everyone is hiding in classrooms etc....and then the cops show up and are just standing around outside staring at the building.  They did briefly exchange some gunfire but I think they realized they were not going to have an epic shootout with the police.  IDK I guess I just think they may have lost heart a bit when they realized their plan was pretty much a dud.

Indeed. In many ways, the whole event was a dud from E/D's perspective, starting with the failure of the cafeteria bombs. I'm not sure they had ever talked about a "plan B" in case that failure occurred. I think the suicide was the last, sad concession to the fact that nothing really went right with the attack as they had envisioned and talked about it.

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PostSubject: Re: Question about E&D's state of mind after the library   Question about E&D's state of mind after the library Icon_minitimeThu Mar 17, 2016 1:29 pm

Eric and Dylan went to the school with a plan for four things.

1) Blow up the school.
2) Shoot up the school.
3) Die by cop
4) Blow up ambulances

If you want to understand their behavior, I think you have to see them as trying to complete the plan.  

They had to flip 1) and 2) because the bombs didn't originally go off.  They also tried to flip 3) and 4) when SWAT didn't come in. Eric and Dylan fired on ambulances and cops right before they committed suicide and received return fire, so in some sense they simulated a "suicide by cop," or at least one where they were committing suicide in a shootout of sorts rather than in an isolated corner--this was Eric's grandiose fantasy.

And really, Eric and Dylan were so grandiose that simply shooting students was not nearly enough for them.  They stopped shooting students because they wanted to pursue a more grandiose vision.
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