"I want you to know you can trust me"

Some weeks after having read Susan Klebold's book, I find that my mind is still reeling over the story she told of a conversation she had with Dylan in the wee hours of his last Sunday morning, after he got home from the prom:

Susan Klebold wrote:

When I heard Dylan’s car arrive home from the prom after 4 a.m., I roused myself to talk with him. Though I was tired, I wanted to reach out.

We met at the foot of the stairs. He looked exhausted but happy, a kid who’d had a big night. As usual, he was reluctant to volunteer information, so I peppered him with questions about what he’d eaten and whom he’d hung out with. I was excited to find out he’d danced. He thanked me for paying for tickets and clothes, and I was pleasantly surprised by his effusiveness when he told me he’d had the best night of his life.

I had kissed him good night and turned to go back to bed when he stopped me. “I want to show you something.” He pulled a metal flask from his pocket. Someone with a little skill and a lot of solder had fixed a large crack at the top with a messy patch.

“What is this?” I demanded. “Where did you get this thing?”

He said he’d found it. When I asked what it contained, Dylan said it held peppermint schnapps, and that he’d rather not say where he’d gotten the alcohol. I was about to launch into my well-worn concerns about drinking when Dylan held up a hand, silencing me.

“I want you to know you can trust me and you can trust Robyn. I had filled this so we could drink it tonight. I want you to see only a little tiny bit is missing.” He handed me the flask, and insisted I examine it closely, as if he were going to do a magic trick with it. “We had a little bit to drink at the beginning of the evening but no more after that. See? It’s close to the top.” I acknowledged the flask was nearly full.

“I just wanted you to know you can trust me,” he said again. Still a little shaken, I thanked him for sharing the information with me before adding, “I do trust you.” Then I headed off to bed, reassured. I’d never expected him to get through high school without experimenting with alcohol, after all. At least he’d told me about it.

I’ve given a lot of thought to that private moment between mother and son in the stillness of the night. In retrospect, I sometimes think that engaging me in that conversation about the flask was among the cruelest tricks Dylan ever played on me. Was he consciously manipulating me into trusting him, even as he was planning a massacre? Was he mocking me? If he was preparing to die within a few days, why was it necessary to establish my trust in him? Did he need reassurance, or was he trying to prevent me from searching his room?

I once shared these thoughts with a psychologist who then asked me, “How do you know he wasn’t in earnest? Maybe he did want to earn your approval, and it had nothing to do with what was to follow.” It’s one of the many things I will never know.

That psychologist is full of it. If Eric had said something like that to his mother, the shrinks would cite it as evidence of his psychopathy - "See how he delighted in duping others?"

Dylan had to have known that his mother would be haunted by that conversation for many years, that she would spend hours and days and weeks and months turning it over and tearing it apart in her mind. It was his way of saying a big fat "Fuck you!" to her - his last great Gift to the woman who birthed him and brought him up almost to manhood.

(In German, Gift means poison.)

What do you think?

What I think? What I keep repeatedly saying. Eric was not a psychopath.

This is almost as evil as what he did three days later. Of course a lie is not as bad as killing people, but I think you know what I mean. He probably laughed about it too. He didn’t have to say that to Sue, he knew her life would be destroyed in just a few days and that his parents would have to deal with the shit he caused.

I don’t think he hated his parents, he just didn’t care about them. If he did, it was so little that he didn't care what would happen to them.

This scenario makes him seem almost narcissistic.  I really don't know what to think of it.  It seems like he was mocking her.  

Or maybe it was his way  of saying, "there's more to me than what you think" and "there's so much you don't know", but then after seeing her freak out about it he had to calm  her down by telling her not to worry and saying that she could trust him.  Maybe it was almost like he was trying to brag at first....then she freaked out.....then he realized he shouldn't have brought it up, so he had to smooth things over.

I think he was mocking her. I think in the last days of his life Dylan attempted to separate himself from his parents as much as he could. Adopting a mocking tone toward her was a way of denying to himself that he loved her (which he did). His final "bye," which was also said in a mocking, sardonic tone, was the final instance of this.

Dylan had to squelch his very real feelings of love for his family in order to carry this out.

lasttrain wrote:

I think he was mocking her.  I think in the last days of his life Dylan attempted to separate himself from his parents as much as he could.  Adopting a mocking tone toward her was a way of denying to himself that he loved her (which he did).  His final "bye," which was also said in a mocking, sardonic tone, was the final instance of this.  

Dylan had to squelch his very real feelings of love for his family in order to carry this out.

lasttrain, when you write tripe like this, I begin to think that you really are nothing but a troll.

Dylan hated everyone in his family except for his parents, and even toward them his expressions of warmth were few and far between.

Try again, 'train.

He hated her so much he ran out to get a mother's day gift for her when he realized he forgot, watched movies with them including Byron in the last months of his life when he didn't have to, voluntarily took a lengthy road trip with them in the last weeks of his life and shared his techno CDs with them which they all enjoyed, played around with his brother in the kitchen before one of their last dinners, pretended to be playing baseball and pitching snowballs to his dad on video four days before the shooting--a video Sue Klebold still has.

Yep sounds like hatred to me.

Quote :

“How do you know he wasn’t in earnest? Maybe he did want to earn your approval, and it had nothing to do with what was to follow.”

"Maybe he did want to earn your approval."  The word "maybe" suggests that the psychologist was simply offering one possible explanation for his behavior.  Kind of what lasttrain is doing. I'm not sure why you're so quick with the insults.

I care so much for Dylan but I still can't believe he did this.It seems so cold and unnecessary.
I don't think he had to do that.
He could have kept that flask hidden and she would have never known he ever had it if he threw it away before the next Tuesday.I can only assume he did it as an extra precaution to stop his Mom from looking in his room for the next 3 days.I believe he was so dedicated to the plan by then that he had an ends justify the means no matter philosophy.
He should have never done that though.His Mom has enough to think of and wonder about the rest of her life without this.

lasttrain wrote:

He hated her so much he ran out to get a mother's day gift for her when he realized he forgot, watched movies with them including Byron in the last months of his life when he didn't have to, voluntarily took a lengthy road trip with them in the last weeks of his life and shared his techno CDs with them which they all enjoyed, played around with his brother in the kitchen before one of their last dinners, pretended to be playing baseball and pitching snowballs to his dad on video four days before the shooting--a video Sue Klebold still has.

Yep sounds like hatred to me.

And then he went and fucked up their lives ROYALLY.

It was filled to the top and there was only a few sips gone between him and Robyn. We know Dylan felt like the runt in the family (and maybe treated like one) so I'm assuming it was his way of letting his mother/family know she should have trusted him more or quite possibly believed in him more before leaving this world.

Not sure where the evil comes from considering he could have said or possibly done a lot worse before the massacre.

Another important incident in the book is as follows-
In Feb .1999 Dylan was talking to Sue and mentioned to her a senior prank was being planned.
Sue asked what it was but Dylan smiled and said he didn't want to tell her.
She then reminded him that he just got out of diversion and he could get in trouble for even an innocent prank.
He assured her he wouldn't be getting in any trouble and never mentioned the prank again.
We all know now what the prank was he was almost certainly referring to.
He was then practicing that foreshadowing and irony that was so important to him and Eric.
For some reason such instances get a pass from people who believe the evil Eric/sweet ,depressed Dylan paradigm.

My theory as to why Dylan wanted to have this conversation with his mom because well Dylan liked to be called VoDKa because he liked to drink and once drank a whole bottle of vodka hence how he got the name. The significance as to why Dylan decided to show his mom and the full flask is because he didn't drink even though he could have and was planning to but as he said he had the best time of his life and I guess this was his way of proving it to his mom. Who also knew of a possible drinking problem Dylan had. I don't think it was meant to be a joke or mock. Simply a misunderstanding. "I want you to know you can trust me" I think another significance why he said this knowing full well what he was about to do all the people he is planning to kill. I think he wanted his mother to put her trust into his final decision. Although she would completely disapprove and would not understand nor ever will. But to trust what he feels he must do. What he thinks would make him happy.

...

PaintItBlack wrote:

I can only assume he did it as an extra precaution to stop his Mom from looking in his room for the next 3 days.

You might be right about this.

I second that. I liked your opinion too lasttrain. Thanks for saying something Gamling.

I think Dylan had to wear that mask - the mask that his mom could trust him, that he was a good son because in his mind, I think, if just one thing gave it away - boom! He and Eric's plans were over, so maybe Dylan was wearing a mask that night.

However I will always say, Dylan had a more sinister way about him than Eric. You know what they say, it's those quiet ones you have to worry about. I don't think Dylan hated his mother at all (his father? Well who knows), no, no way but - I don't know, I've always said and thought that to me, there was a scariness about Dylan, because you never knew where he was coming from, where as Eric, he if hated you or was going to be cruel to you, you would know it, but there was - to me, it seems anyway, that Dylan had this sneaky creepiness about him. I'd be afraid to be in a room around with "Vodka" Dylan's alter ego, more than I would with Reb (Eric's alter ego). Just my opinion.

I hate to bump a three-year-old thread - especially one where I was acting like kind of a dick - but this is a very intriguing little story that gives us considerable insight into Dylan. He was a master liar and manipulator.

I've always identified with Eric more than Dylan. During the height of my anti-Cullen crusade, I was royally pissed off that so many folks seemed to swallow the "Big Bad Psycho Eric Made Sad Little Emo Dylan Piss His Pants" narrative. In recent years, I've softened my anti-Dylan stance a little. But I still find it hard to make any excuses for him. Even if Eric fired more killshots than Dylan, the fact remains that Dylan did absolutely nothing to stop Eric. And don't try to tell me that Dylan was so scared and intimidated by Eric that he was simply frozen in fear.

You could argue that Dylan wanted to die so badly that he didn't care what Eric was going to do. But that still makes Dylan look like a real prick, doesn't it? He was perfectly willing to go along with a plan that could have resulted in the deaths of hundreds of people, including his best friends.

Nowadays, I take a philosophical view of the Cullenbine phenomenon. Dave Cullen is still utterly full of shit, but so much bullshit has been spewed in the social/cultural/political arena over the last few years that I can't muster up the outrage anymore. The world is full of drooling morons who are easily swayed by smooth-talking charlatans. What else is new?

LPorter101 wrote:

I hate to bump a three-year-old thread - especially one where I was acting like kind of a dick - but this is a very intriguing little story that gives us considerable insight into Dylan. He was a master liar and manipulator.

I've always identified with Eric more than Dylan. During the height of my anti-Cullen crusade, I was royally pissed off that so many folks seemed to swallow the "Big Bad Psycho Eric Made Sad Little Emo Dylan Piss His Pants" narrative. In recent years, I've softened my anti-Dylan stance a little. But I still find it hard to make any excuses for him. Even if Eric fired more killshots than Dylan, the fact remains that Dylan did absolutely nothing to stop Eric. And don't try to tell me that Dylan was so scared and intimidated by Eric that he was simply frozen in fear.

You could argue that Dylan wanted to die so badly that he didn't care what Eric was going to do. But that still makes Dylan look like a real prick, doesn't it? He was perfectly willing to go along with a plan that could have resulted in the deaths of hundreds of people, including his best friends.

Nowadays, I take a philosophical view of the Cullenbine phenomenon. Dave Cullen is still utterly full of shit, but so much bullshit has been spewed in the social/cultural/political arena over the last few years that I can't muster up the outrage anymore. The world is full of drooling morons who are easily swayed by smooth-talking charlatans. What else is new?

Yes I agree. So many people interviewed were not surprised Eric was involved but quite a few were very surprised Dylan was a shooter. He had everyone fooled. Eric was not able to hide his anger or disdain well, but Dylan wore a mask for a very long time and no one knew. I question if anyone knew the real him for the last few years of his life (beside Eric)

Lizpuff wrote:

LPorter101 wrote:

I hate to bump a three-year-old thread - especially one where I was acting like kind of a dick - but this is a very intriguing little story that gives us considerable insight into Dylan. He was a master liar and manipulator.

I've always identified with Eric more than Dylan. During the height of my anti-Cullen crusade, I was royally pissed off that so many folks seemed to swallow the "Big Bad Psycho Eric Made Sad Little Emo Dylan Piss His Pants" narrative. In recent years, I've softened my anti-Dylan stance a little. But I still find it hard to make any excuses for him. Even if Eric fired more killshots than Dylan, the fact remains that Dylan did absolutely nothing to stop Eric. And don't try to tell me that Dylan was so scared and intimidated by Eric that he was simply frozen in fear.

You could argue that Dylan wanted to die so badly that he didn't care what Eric was going to do. But that still makes Dylan look like a real prick, doesn't it? He was perfectly willing to go along with a plan that could have resulted in the deaths of hundreds of people, including his best friends.

Nowadays, I take a philosophical view of the Cullenbine phenomenon. Dave Cullen is still utterly full of shit, but so much bullshit has been spewed in the social/cultural/political arena over the last few years that I can't muster up the outrage anymore. The world is full of drooling morons who are easily swayed by smooth-talking charlatans. What else is new?

Yes I agree.  So many people interviewed were not surprised Eric was involved but quite a few were very surprised Dylan was a shooter.  He had everyone fooled.  Eric was not able to hide his anger or disdain well, but Dylan wore a mask for a very long time and no one knew.  I question if anyone knew the real him for the last few years of his life (beside Eric)

I agree with both of you. But I wanted to add that while Dylan surely didn't reveal this huge ugly part of himself to most other people, I don't think this necessarily means that he wasn't trying to revealing his true self to his friends.
By this I mean, Dylan seemed to compartmentalize and only reveal certain parts of himself to certain people, maybe never revealing all of himself to a single person. Eric knew Dylan's rage, but did Eric also know the poet writing, compassionate Dylan that Devon knew? To me, it seems like, he was never truly his authentic, whole self with anyone. His journal entries are pretty naked displays of his pain, and knowing what we do about him I don't think he would have shared thosed kinds of things with another person.  Maybe for fear that he'd be rejected or mocked. Even though he and Eric were likely the closest during that last year, I think there is probably quite a bit that even Eric didn't know about him. And I don't feel like it was because Dylan was trying to fool people (aside from hiding NBK plans), but just that he couldn't bear to face what he thought would be the judgment of others if they knew what really went on in his head. Maybe this added to his self hate, having to hold it all in and shoulder it by himself.

thelmar wrote:

Lizpuff wrote:

LPorter101 wrote:

I hate to bump a three-year-old thread - especially one where I was acting like kind of a dick - but this is a very intriguing little story that gives us considerable insight into Dylan. He was a master liar and manipulator.

I've always identified with Eric more than Dylan. During the height of my anti-Cullen crusade, I was royally pissed off that so many folks seemed to swallow the "Big Bad Psycho Eric Made Sad Little Emo Dylan Piss His Pants" narrative. In recent years, I've softened my anti-Dylan stance a little. But I still find it hard to make any excuses for him. Even if Eric fired more killshots than Dylan, the fact remains that Dylan did absolutely nothing to stop Eric. And don't try to tell me that Dylan was so scared and intimidated by Eric that he was simply frozen in fear.

You could argue that Dylan wanted to die so badly that he didn't care what Eric was going to do. But that still makes Dylan look like a real prick, doesn't it? He was perfectly willing to go along with a plan that could have resulted in the deaths of hundreds of people, including his best friends.

Nowadays, I take a philosophical view of the Cullenbine phenomenon. Dave Cullen is still utterly full of shit, but so much bullshit has been spewed in the social/cultural/political arena over the last few years that I can't muster up the outrage anymore. The world is full of drooling morons who are easily swayed by smooth-talking charlatans. What else is new?

Yes I agree.  So many people interviewed were not surprised Eric was involved but quite a few were very surprised Dylan was a shooter.  He had everyone fooled.  Eric was not able to hide his anger or disdain well, but Dylan wore a mask for a very long time and no one knew.  I question if anyone knew the real him for the last few years of his life (beside Eric)

I agree with both of you. But I wanted to add that while Dylan surely didn't reveal this huge ugly part of himself to most other people, I don't think this necessarily means that he wasn't trying to revealing his true self to his friends.
By this I mean, Dylan seemed to compartmentalize and only reveal certain parts of himself to certain people, maybe never revealing all of himself to a single person. Eric knew Dylan's rage, but did Eric also know the poet writing, compassionate Dylan that Devon knew? To me, it seems like, he was never truly his authentic, whole self with anyone. His journal entries are pretty naked displays of his pain, and knowing what we do about him I don't think he would have shared thosed kinds of things with another person.  Maybe for fear that he'd be rejected or mocked. Even though he and Eric were likely the closest during that last year, I think there is probably quite a bit that even Eric didn't know about him. And I don't feel like it was because Dylan was trying to fool people (aside from hiding NBK plans), but just that he couldn't bear to face what he thought would be the judgment of others if they knew what really went on in his head. Maybe this added to his self hate, having to hold it all in and shoulder it by himself.

I would agree esp on the front that I don't think Eric even knew who Dylan really was on the inside.

LPorter101 wrote:

That psychologist is full of it. If Eric had said something like that to his mother, the shrinks would cite it as evidence of his psychopathy - "See how he delighted in duping others?"

No, that's not evidence of psychopathy. True, psychopaths are indifferent to others' suffering and love to lie, but they don't often plan two or three hours in advance to make others suffer. They are impulsive and reckless, which indicates that they live in the moment. Dylan's comment to his mother is not something a psychopath would do. If Dylan were a true psychopath, he would have said, "Yeah, Nate and I got plastered tonight, mom. We even went to the movies using your credit card." And he would laugh, knowing that he had caused her pain. Or Dylan would have stated, "You know I wouldn't ever steal from you, mom." Psychopaths have shallow, short-lived emotions, but they don't plan these out. They are thrill-seekers who take pleasure in defying societal norms and the law. True, Psychopaths are self-centered and careless, but they are also narcissistic and charming. I don't have any evidence that Dylan was any of these things.

LPorter101 wrote:

had to have known that his mother would be haunted by that conversation for many years, that she would spend hours and days and weeks and months turning it over and tearing it apart in her mind.

I think Sue's correct. He probably didn't want her to check his room again.

I do think that showing his mom the flask was to make sure she did search his room. I don’t exactly know how much stuff he had hidden in there. I know I’d be found “vodkas vengeance “ one of the pipe bombs in his room and a sawed off BB gun. He was also getting rid of stuff on his computer which I don’t think takes too long.

I just sometimes wonder if Eric picked up on his rage and anger and that’s how Eric felt comfortable going to Dylan about possibly doing us. Or they just kind of both talked about it one night. You know how you can get into conversations with friends and you don’t know really who brought it up , you’re just suddenly in the middle of it?


I also think it’s really telling that Eric was alone when he was showing emotion on the basement tapes. He cried and talked about his old friends but he was Byam self. When he was with Dylan he had a lot of bravado

Screamingophelia wrote:

When he was with Dylan he had a lot of bravado

That's also true of Dylan.

jada887 wrote:

No, that's not evidence of psychopathy. True, psychopaths are indifferent to others' suffering and love to lie, but they don't often plan two or three hours in advance to make others suffer. They are impulsive and reckless, which indicates that they live in the moment. Dylan's comment to his mother is not something a psychopath would do. If Dylan were a true psychopath, he would have said, "Yeah, Nate and I got plastered tonight, mom. We even went to the movies using your credit card." And he would laugh, knowing that he had caused her pain. Or Dylan would have stated, "You know I wouldn't ever steal from you, mom." Psychopaths have shallow, short-lived emotions, but they don't plan these out. They are thrill-seekers who take pleasure in defying societal norms and the law.

This is my, admittedly limited, understanding of lying with psychopathy, as well. The lie occurs in the moment for an immediate, or fairly immediate payoff. But I agree with [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] that in Fuselier's interpretation of what psychopathy is, if Eric had had the same flask conversation with his mom, Fuselier (and Cullen, by extension) would be waving it as proof that Harris was psychopath. Anytime Eric was deceptive, according to Fuselier, it was evidence of his psychopathy. I think that he's wrong, but I think that's what he'd say.

jada887 wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

When he was with Dylan he had a lot of bravado

That's also true of Dylan.

I think they both hid things from one another. Their bond was forged on pain and anger but I think it's unlikely they ever showed each other weakness or vulnerability. They were gods, after all.

thelmar wrote:

I think they both hid things from one another. Their bond was forged on pain and anger but I think it's unlikely they ever showed each other weakness or vulnerability. They were gods, after all.

I find this uniquely sad in a strange way. They were both hiding the more sensitive sides of their personality from each other. They really were truly alone, even with a person they felt they could trust.

[quote="thelmar"]

jada887 wrote:

This is my, admittedly limited, understanding of lying with psychopathy, as well. The lie occurs in the moment for an immediate, or fairly immediate payoff. But I agree with [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] that in Fuselier's interpretation of what psychopathy is, if Eric had had the same flask conversation with his mom, Fuselier (and Cullen, by extension) would be waving it as proof that Harris was psychopath. Anytime Eric was deceptive, according to Fuselier, it was evidence of his psychopathy. I think that he's wrong, but I think that's what he'd say.

Well, you have to take everything in context. When I am sitting down with a person who's pouring his/her heart and soul to me, I try to find out what's wrong by looking at behavioral patterns. You look through every aspect of the person's life to find out what is really going on inside. I think that Fuselier would have said that that episodic event is evidence of Eric's psychopathy. But I think Fuselier would have backed that up by showing that Eric's journal and video tapes showed behavioral patterns consistent with psychopathy. If I were to present this case to Fuselier, and state that it is Dylan who said that, he would have denied that it had anything to do with psychopathy. He would point out, rightly, that Dylan's writings and subsequent behavior showed no patterns of psychopathy.

LPorter101 wrote:

And then he went and fucked up their lives ROYALLY.

As did Eric.

jada887 wrote:

Well, you have to take everything in context. When I am sitting down with a person who's pouring his/her heart and soul to me, I try to find out what's wrong by looking at behavioral patterns. You look through every aspect of the person's life to find out what is really going on inside. I think that Fuselier would have said that that episodic event is evidence of Eric's psychopathy. But I think Fuselier would have backed that up by showing that Eric's journal and video tapes showed behavioral patterns consistent with psychopathy. If I were to present this case to Fuselier, and state that it is Dylan who said that, he would have denied that it had anything to do with psychopathy. He would point out, rightly, that Dylan's writings and subsequent behavior showed no patterns of psychopathy.

But if

jada887 wrote:

they don't often plan two or three hours in advance to make others suffer. They are impulsive and reckless, which indicates that they live in the moment... Psychopaths have shallow, short-lived emotions, but they don't plan these out.

how can that bolster the psychopath theory? If we are using the flask incident, and we believe that the basis of the conversation was planned in advance (because the flask was left full), how does that fit with the impulsiveness of the psychopath? I understand using patterns of behavior to make a diagnosis but this particular lie doesn't seem to fit the pattern. Can't a lie just be a lie and not indicate pathology?