For those who don't believe truly horrific bullying exists

I'm sure the majority of members on here are aware that truly horrific bullying exists, but in the context of using it to sympathise with Eric and Dylan, I think that's where people have a problem, including myself.

PaintItBlack wrote:

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This is so awful.  This reminds me of something that happened to me in high school.  In 1997 when I was in the 10th grade trench coats were also a huge thing at my school.  One of my friends was a weird guy who always wore his trench coat, combat boots, and dressed different in general.  He had been suffering from severe depression and was taunted daily and pushed against lockers at school and that sort of stuff.  He got tired of it finally and he ended his life.  The next day at school it was announced on the intercom so we could have a "moment of silence" for him.  I was in a class with one other weird chic and the rest of the students were jocks and preps.  The other girl was crying because she knew him really well.  All the jocks and preps were throwing stuff at her and laughing and making loud jokes about the whole thing.  The dumbass teacher just sat there and did nothing.

I don't know.I have opened up old painful wounds to explain what my best friend and I experienced in school and I feel I was basically accused of exaggerating.
I know bullying wasn't the only reason they did what they did but I believe that was the start of it all and their bullying was worse than many think or acknowledge today.

PaintItBlack wrote:

I don't know.I have opened up old painful wounds to explain what my best friend and I experienced in school and I feel I was basically accused of exaggerating.
I know bullying wasn't the only reason they did what they did but I believe that was the start of it all and their bullying was worse than many think or acknowledge today.

Even if it was worse than most acknowledge, which I don't believe is wrongly acknowledged based on evidence we have, I still don't think it in any conceivable way justify's their actions on that day. Not just their actions, but the months of planning leading up to it to. If you genuinely believe it does, well that's worrying IMO.

Hectic wrote:

PaintItBlack wrote:

I don't know.I have opened up old painful wounds to explain what my best friend and I experienced in school and I feel I was basically accused of exaggerating.
I know bullying wasn't the only reason they did what they did but I believe that was the start of it all and their bullying was worse than many think or acknowledge today.

Even if it was worse than most acknowledge, which I don't believe is wrongly acknowledged based on evidence we have, I still don't think it in any conceivable way justify's their actions on that day. Not just their actions, but the months of planning leading up to it to. If you genuinely believe it does, well that's worrying IMO.

I don't believe an attack like that is justified now but I certainly believed it was back in the day and for a long time.I am coming from a perspective of not only a Columbiner but someone who walked part of the way in E &D's shoes with a close friend.I have been trying to share that perspective since I have been here.

PaintItBlack wrote:

Hectic wrote:

PaintItBlack wrote:

I don't know.I have opened up old painful wounds to explain what my best friend and I experienced in school and I feel I was basically accused of exaggerating.
I know bullying wasn't the only reason they did what they did but I believe that was the start of it all and their bullying was worse than many think or acknowledge today.

Even if it was worse than most acknowledge, which I don't believe is wrongly acknowledged based on evidence we have, I still don't think it in any conceivable way justify's their actions on that day. Not just their actions, but the months of planning leading up to it to. If you genuinely believe it does, well that's worrying IMO.

I don't believe an attack like that is justified now but I certainly believed it was back in the day and for a long time.I am coming from a perspective of not only a Columbiner but someone who walked part of the way in E &D's shoes with a close friend.I have been trying to share that perspective since I have been here.

That's fair enough, but you have said in a few posts that you still feel deep sympathy for them still. These kids didn't just wake up and snap, they planned the bombing for months and there is little evidence that they were bullied anywhere close to what you seem to suspect. It seems like it was the other way around in some cases. I get it, I was bullied too back in school with a friend of mine, I get what you are saying in regards to thinking you know where they have been mentally, but I really don't believe it was the case with Eric and Dylan. I really don't see how anybody could hold any sympathy for what they did.

Hectic wrote:

PaintItBlack wrote:

Hectic wrote:

PaintItBlack wrote:

I don't know.I have opened up old painful wounds to explain what my best friend and I experienced in school and I feel I was basically accused of exaggerating.
I know bullying wasn't the only reason they did what they did but I believe that was the start of it all and their bullying was worse than many think or acknowledge today.

Even if it was worse than most acknowledge, which I don't believe is wrongly acknowledged based on evidence we have, I still don't think it in any conceivable way justify's their actions on that day. Not just their actions, but the months of planning leading up to it to. If you genuinely believe it does, well that's worrying IMO.

I don't believe an attack like that is justified now but I certainly believed it was back in the day and for a long time.I am coming from a perspective of not only a Columbiner but someone who walked part of the way in E &D's shoes with a close friend.I have been trying to share that perspective since I have been here.

That's fair enough, but you have said in a few posts that you still feel deep sympathy for them still. These kids didn't just wake up and snap, they planned the bombing for months and there is little evidence that they were bullied anywhere close to what you seem to suspect. It seems like it was the other way around in some cases. I get it, I was bullied too back in school with a friend of mine, I get what you are saying in regards to thinking you know where they have been mentally, but I really don't believe it was the case with Eric and Dylan. I really don't see how anybody could hold any sympathy for what they did.

Yes, I do. My friend and I planned our attack for a long time too.
For a few different reasons it didn't end up happening but it was planned for a long time.
I don't remember the exact time frame but it was about 9 months, give or take a month or so.
I'm now thankful it didn't happen but we wouldn't have just woken up and snapped if it had happened either. We snapped a long time before.
I believe that if we had went through with it many of the same things now said about E &D like we weren't bullied that badly or we brought a lot of it on ourselves or were the bullies , not the other way around.My friend and I have discussed this a few times and are certain this would have occurred.


You might not see it, but if you had lived through what my friend and I did, maybe you would.

Well thank feck you and your friend didn't go through with it, as if you did, you would have also deserved zero sympathy.

Hectic wrote:

Well thank feck you and your friend didn't go through with it, as if you did, you would have also deserved zero sympathy.

That's your belief and that is the opinion of the majority.But even seeing how wrong an attack is to do, looking back I can't agree with that and neither does my friend.Something else we have also discussed a few times since becoming adults.

PaintItBlack wrote:

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I can't read the full article sorry, when I click the continue reading link it throws up a new page where I can't seem to find the rest of the story. A sad tale no doubt from what I read on the opening paragraph.

I did find it interesting on the comments section of the link that the second comment down was "All these bullied kids got it wrong, you don't kill yourself, you kill the bullies!"

PaintItBlack - what was your plan out of curiosity? Were you going to shoot or bomb? Did you have a plan to spare the 1% who didn't bully you or were they to be collateral damage?

I have to say to paintitblack: your story has me in tears. I have the utmost respect for you for going through hell at the hands of others and having the courage and strength to rise above it and resist the desire for revenge. Seriously.. Hats off to you and anyone else out there who rises above the cruelty of others. You have opened yourself and shared these terrible wounds with a bunch of faceless nameless strangers here. Im amazed at your bravery. I dont always agree with your opinions but i do respect them. By sharing your experience i understand more and my perspective is wider. Thank you

I heard this one kid called a black kid crying for his mom a n*gger then him and his friend murdered him in cold blood.

Radioactive_Clothing wrote:

PaintItBlack - what was your plan out of curiosity? Were you going to shoot or bomb? Did you have a plan to spare the 1% who didn't bully you or were they to be collateral damage?

It was to be a shooting.We wanted to spare the 1% if possible but if one had gotten in the way somehow it wouldn't have been enough to make us stop the attack.
Sounds awful,but that's where we were at the time.99% of the school was on the target list because that's how many either bullied us or mocked and cheered our humiliation.

rockiemontana wrote:

I have to say to paintitblack: your story has me in tears. I have the utmost respect for you for going through hell at the hands of others and having the courage and strength to rise above it and resist the desire for revenge. Seriously.. Hats off to you and anyone else out there who rises above the cruelty of others.  You have opened yourself and shared these terrible wounds with a bunch of faceless nameless strangers here. Im amazed at your bravery. I dont always agree with your opinions but i do respect them. By sharing your experience i understand more and my perspective is wider. Thank you

Wow... thank you. Your words mean more to me than I can express in words.I wasn't expecting such a post.

Although,I am not sure if I deserve your praise and I want to be clear on that.
The reasons why my friend and I didn't go through with the shooting were more practical ones at first.We remained bitter and rageful for some time after and it wasn't until a few years later that it hit us exactly how wrong such a thing is,the pain it causes and so on.

I hear what your saying about practicle reasons. The important thing is that it DIDNT happen and because of that you had time to come to the realization that it wasnt the answer. Ithink if e&d's plan had been interrupted somehow and it never happened they too would have grown up and out of that mindset. They would have gotten the last laugh at a class reunion years later when they show up sucessful and handsome and confident. While the jocks who pushed them around are all fat alcoholics and the girls who didnt give them the time of day would be wishing they had been nicer.. Let me tell you.. THAT is revenge you can feel good about.

rockiemontana wrote:

I hear what your saying about practicle reasons. The important thing is that it DIDNT happen and because of that you had time to come to the realization that it wasnt the answer. Ithink if e&d's plan had been interrupted somehow and it never happened they too would have grown up and out of that mindset. They would have gotten the last laugh at a class reunion years later when they show up sucessful and handsome and confident. While the jocks who pushed them around are all fat alcoholics and the girls who didnt give them the time of day would be wishing they had been nicer..  Let me tell you.. THAT is revenge you can feel good about.  

I agree.I have always believed this about E &D.If they has only given themselves more time or found God(who I think they needed desperately despite their ramblings about being Gods) or found loving relationships,I think they could have went on to live beautiful lives.
Most people think that they ,especially Eric, were fated to bad ends no matter what but I can't accept that view.

That is so sad...

As a teacher I think that bullying hasn't gotten any better. Nowadays bullying just has different forms, such as cyber bullying. A student where I live killed herself due to cyber bullying, someone posted a naked photo of her through Facebook private messaging. People don't realise the deep scarring bullying can do to kids.
When I was in primary school my sixth grade teacher referred to the bullying I received as 'the worst case of bullying I've seen in 25 years of teaching' And did she do anything? A lot of the times she blamed me, saying I was alienating myself, like I deserved it. One time I was being spat and having things thrown at me and she sent me to the library. Those kids got absolutely no punishment for what they did.
I sympathise for anyone who is bullied and part of the reason I became a teacher was so I could make a difference and not be someone who turns a blind eye to it.

PaintItBlack wrote:

Radioactive_Clothing wrote:

PaintItBlack - what was your plan out of curiosity? Were you going to shoot or bomb? Did you have a plan to spare the 1% who didn't bully you or were they to be collateral damage?

It was to be a shooting.We wanted to spare the 1% if possible but if one had gotten in the way somehow it wouldn't have been enough to make us stop the attack.
Sounds awful,but that's where we were at the time.99% of the school was on the target list because that's how many either bullied us or mocked and cheered our humiliation.

Was your friend also an admirer of Eric Harris? Bearing in mind her apparent rape and Eric's writings that indicate he wanted to rape someone and tear their flesh with his teeth? Seems a little odd you two feel pity for this creature who writes about such things.

Radioactive_Clothing wrote:

PaintItBlack wrote:

Radioactive_Clothing wrote:

PaintItBlack - what was your plan out of curiosity? Were you going to shoot or bomb? Did you have a plan to spare the 1% who didn't bully you or were they to be collateral damage?

It was to be a shooting.We wanted to spare the 1% if possible but if one had gotten in the way somehow it wouldn't have been enough to make us stop the attack.
Sounds awful,but that's where we were at the time.99% of the school was on the target list because that's how many either bullied us or mocked and cheered our humiliation.

Was your friend also an admirer of Eric Harris? Bearing in mind her apparent rape and Eric's writings that indicate he wanted to rape someone and tear their flesh with his teeth? Seems a little odd you two feel pity for this creature who writes about such things.

In one of the many wonderful examples of Eric's contradictory ramblings, he also wrote that he believed that racist women should be raped by a man of another race and be forced to bear their child:

"YOU KNOW WHAT I HATE!!

---RACISM!!Anyone who belives that blacks, asians, mexicans, or people from any other country or race besides white-american....people who think that should be drug out into the street, have their arms ripped off, be burnt suht at the stumps, then have every person of the race that YOU hate come out and beat the shit out of you. and if you are female, then you should be raped by a male from the race you hate and be forced to raise the child! You people are the scum of society and arent worth a damn piece of worm shit. You all are trash. And dont let me catch you making fun of someone just because they are a different color because i will come in and break your fucking legs with a plastic spoon. i dont care how long it takes! and thats both legs mind you."

Radioactive_Clothing wrote:

PaintItBlack wrote:

Radioactive_Clothing wrote:

PaintItBlack - what was your plan out of curiosity? Were you going to shoot or bomb? Did you have a plan to spare the 1% who didn't bully you or were they to be collateral damage?

It was to be a shooting.We wanted to spare the 1% if possible but if one had gotten in the way somehow it wouldn't have been enough to make us stop the attack.
Sounds awful,but that's where we were at the time.99% of the school was on the target list because that's how many either bullied us or mocked and cheered our humiliation.

Was your friend also an admirer of Eric Harris? Bearing in mind her apparent rape and Eric's writings that indicate he wanted to rape someone and tear their flesh with his teeth? Seems a little odd you two feel pity for this creature who writes about such things.

She is a sympathizer of his ,yes. We don't believe that the passage you are referring to refers to a rape, but rather rough sex.As far as the rest of that entry she relates to that as an expression of his rage and that's understandable to her because of the rage she was brimming over with after her rape.
It wasn't just rage towards the 3 boys, but the school,the administration,the police, most of the students in the school.

First of all, the article that started this post was absolutely horrible. If my child committed suicide and his/her bullies showed up at the funeral and laughed at the casket, I would be in prison for killing them right then and there. I cannot think of words horrible enough for people like that.


Now, regarding bullying and Eric and Dylan - I think that there is some evidence that they were bullied. There is also evidence that they did some bullying. I don't feel that bullying was the cause of the shooting, but I certainly don't think it helped anything.

And it seems to be an unpopular opinion, but I do have sympathy for Eric and Dylan. I'm not entirely sure how to explain it. I absolutely do not condone what they did, I am not "in love" with either of them, and I do not worship or idolize them. Maybe I just remember all too clearly what it was like to feel the way that they wrote about feeling (I related more to Dylan as a teenager but as an adult, I think I'm more like Eric with his rage and hatred toward humanity in general). Of course, the victims and their families, and the Klebold and Harris families, deserve more sympathy but E&D do.

This comment I found is worth adding

I see things like what happened yesterday and I understand all too well. I want to reach out to the kids who do these things. I want to say I get it. It scares the crap out of me that I understand them so well. It scares me to think what if this stuff was going on when I was a teen.

My IQ is supposedly off the charts. My parents had me tested before I was in 1st grade. I don't know what my IQ is, I've insisted strongly my whole life that I do not want to know. I was placed in school early. I was in the gifted program. I was bullied, laughed at and treated as an outcast all through grade school.

I was angry. I dealt with horrible depression. Unbearable anxiety. I couldn't relate any of this with my parents or any one.

I turned on my bullies three times during grade school. The first I lifted by his throat and held him against a wall, informing him he'd never bother me again. The second, I knocked him backwards over a chair very hard. The third I took to the ground with my knee in his chest, shoved so hard he needed medical care.

I couldn't ever reach out to my parents, teachers, or friends. I saw myself as I was treated, so to call out for help I'd be a weak, hopeless coward.

I'm over 40 now. My past haunts me. I still see myself as I was treated as a child. Years of medicine and therapy have only scratched the surface of my issues. I'm opening too many shut doors in my head to even write this. I'm not sure how coherent this will be. I'm skipping so many details.

I could have been one of those guys that cracked, grabbed a gun and went berserk. I won't touch guns, period. Won't go near them. I'm terrified of them. But at 19? I'm glad I never had one around me.

It does and the consequences can be absolutely devastating. Ive been bullied(I sadly did some bullying too,,when I was younger. Not cool), but I had a lot of friends and they never managed to bully me to the extreme. Probably because I would constantly fight back.

But extreme bullying: Yes, absolutely, and having reseached the topic about bullying Ive come to the conclusions that itd also very misunderstood. Which can be dangerous, even at that. For instance bullying doesnt just affect kids that have 'low social status'. It can even affect kids that have a gigh social standing. 2: That bullies are insecure: Definately not all the time. There are probably multiple reasons which can motivate bullying behaviour, but there seems to be little focus put on why they are doing it. But insecurity seems to have been dismissed. I believe its possible that it may apply to the passive bullies. But Ive seen some evidence which suggests that bullies tend to have good self esteem
Now, good self esteem doesnt necessarily mean that they are doing great. People tend to confuse self- emotions and self esteem. Workplace bullying: Its not that its a myth. Itd s that adult bullying is no better than kids doing the bullying. I just think that there should be more focus on it.

Coming from a country outside of the US, I havent seen much talk of it, but we know that its rampant in the workplace too. The rules have changed where I come from. In schools they are now mandated to follow up on and report bullying and harassment in the school. But its not just in schools, and the workplace should be given much more attention to it. Its just unacceptable and people can be effected by it for many years

bubbles wrote:

Radioactive_Clothing wrote:

PaintItBlack wrote:

Radioactive_Clothing wrote:

PaintItBlack - what was your plan out of curiosity? Were you going to shoot or bomb? Did you have a plan to spare the 1% who didn't bully you or were they to be collateral damage?

It was to be a shooting.We wanted to spare the 1% if possible but if one had gotten in the way somehow it wouldn't have been enough to make us stop the attack.
Sounds awful,but that's where we were at the time.99% of the school was on the target list because that's how many either bullied us or mocked and cheered our humiliation.

Was your friend also an admirer of Eric Harris? Bearing in mind her apparent rape and Eric's writings that indicate he wanted to rape someone and tear their flesh with his teeth? Seems a little odd you two feel pity for this creature who writes about such things.

In one of the many wonderful examples of Eric's contradictory ramblings, he also wrote that he believed that racist women should be raped by a man of another race and be forced to bear their child:

"YOU KNOW WHAT I HATE!!

---RACISM!!Anyone who belives that blacks, asians, mexicans, or people from any other country or race besides white-american....people who think that should be drug out into the street, have their arms ripped off, be burnt suht at the stumps, then have every person of the race that YOU hate come out and beat the shit out of you. and if you are female, then you should be raped by a male from the race you hate and be forced to raise the child! You people are the scum of society and arent worth a damn piece of worm shit. You all are trash. And dont let me catch you making fun of someone just because they are a different color because i will come in and break your fucking legs with a plastic spoon. i dont care how long it takes! and thats both legs mind you."

He sure made contradicting statements. You cant argue against that

PaintItBlack wrote:

This comment I found is worth adding

I see things like what happened yesterday and I understand all too well. I want to reach out to the kids who do these things. I want to say I get it. It scares the crap out of me that I understand them so well. It scares me to think what if this stuff was going on when I was a teen.

My IQ is supposedly off the charts. My parents had me tested before I was in 1st grade. I don't know what my IQ is, I've insisted strongly my whole life that I do not want to know. I was placed in school early. I was in the gifted program. I was bullied, laughed at and treated as an outcast all through grade school.

I was angry. I dealt with horrible depression. Unbearable anxiety. I couldn't relate any of this with my parents or any one.

I turned on my bullies three times during grade school. The first I lifted by his throat and held him against a wall, informing him he'd never bother me again. The second, I knocked him backwards over a chair very hard. The third I took to the ground with my knee in his chest, shoved so hard he needed medical care.

I couldn't ever reach out to my parents, teachers, or friends. I saw myself as I was treated, so to call out for help I'd be a weak, hopeless coward.

I'm over 40 now. My past haunts me. I still see myself as I was treated as a child. Years of medicine and therapy have only scratched the surface of my issues. I'm opening too many shut doors in my head to even write this. I'm not sure how coherent this will be. I'm skipping so many details.

I could have been one of those guys that cracked, grabbed a gun and went berserk. I won't touch guns, period. Won't go near them. I'm terrified of them. But at 19? I'm glad I never had one around me.

I get your point thats its devastating.

No doubt theres reseach which suggests that bullying plays a role in school shootings(allthough thats far from an adequate explanation). But think about it: school shootings are extremely rare. Bullying is a problem over the world. Millions of people live through that horrible experience without shooting up a school, so if we are going to argue that bullying is a main cause or the reason why, I think we would have seen much more of it. Not all countries have the same amount of mass shootings and school shootings like the US have. I think that access to firearms is a huge problem in the US. No doubt we shouldnt ban guns, but there has to be a proper regulation. Clearly, there are people that should never be exposed to firearms. Google what Pew Research Center is saying about this statistically speaking. When you have this coupled with bad mental health services and a host of others its probably an invitation to a toxic cocktail of problems.

Its good to now see americans standing up to the NRA.

Quote :

I get your point thats its devastating.

No doubt theres reseach which suggests that bullying plays a role in school shootings(allthough thats far from an adequate explanation). But think about it: school shootings are extremely rare. Bullying is a problem over the world. Millions of people live through that horrible experience without shooting up a school, so if we are going to argue that bullying is a main cause or the reason why, I think we would have seen much more of it. Not all countries have the same amount of mass shootings and school shootings like the US have. I think that access to firearms is a huge problem in the US. No doubt we shouldnt ban guns, but there has to be a proper regulation. Clearly, there are people that should never be exposed to firearms. Google what Pew Research Center is saying about this statistically speaking. When you have this coupled with bad mental health services and a host of others its probably an invitation to a toxic cocktail of problems.

Its good to now see americans standing up to the NRA.

The NRA was not popular after Columbine. I think they wanted to organize in Denver after Columbine and that didn't go well. Of course, I read the story in the Cullen book so God knows how much of it is true LOL BLEURGH JK

My conclusions stems slightly from Langmann and a reseach paper called 'white rage'. The extent to which bullying is part of the problem can get you different answers depending on what your looking at, but it's not an adequate explanation. It may be a contributing factor, however, next to a lot of other factors.

According to Langmann some of them, such as Eric Harris and Drew Golden were bullies themselves, for instance. He also, howewer, argue that people such as Drew did show early signs of psychopathy. Wheras Drew apparently was a severely abused child. Apparently, he was sexually molested and came from an abusive home.

White rage, on the other hand, argues that both extreme bullying and neglect abuse etc can lead to trauma.

Im no expert and Ive learned a lot by reading Langmann
. But given that we now know how bullying is connected to mental health problems later in life, I wouldnt disclose bullying as a factor. Given Ive seen studies which suggests that the two are connected inditectly.

As for guns rights, I dont think banning them is the solution, but rather have strict regulations put in place. Its a fact that the US is at the top as far as access to firearms is concerned. I think that plays a role, too

PaintItBlack wrote:

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Lack of empathy is a sign of lower general intelligence (what psychologists call G-Factor in psychometrics), so it's no surprise these girls would do this sort of thing.

Its more lack of EQ(emotional intelligence). You can be very bright and still lack empathy

As for bullying, it is what it is. That doesnt mean anything that is not bullying is good. I e harassment or teasing. They arent good, either. But I think that the term bullying sometimes tend to be used out of context.

I e, accusing people of bullying if they are critisizing something.

Also, I tend to think that theres a few misconceptions about bullying. There tends to be a belief that you cant be bullied if you are a bully, but the fact is they are more closely linked than people like to think they are. Its not impossible that the bully seek out to retaliate for something that they themselves have been exposed to. They are called bully- victims. They occupy the middle ground as both bullied and a bully.

2: Bullied people are always un- popular kids- false.

A study revealed that even popular kids can be subjected to bullying.

Now any kind of negative experience is bad, regardless, and should be taken seriously. But I think its important that bullying doesnt get used out of the general context