Here is a portion of the original thread.
LPORTER101
Mon Apr 25, 2011 1:35 am
To what extent was the 4/20 massacre a masturbatory act?
That is, to what extent were Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold driven to kill by sexual frustration?
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Aside from the outright lies of Brenda Parker, and the dubious assertions of Dave Cullen, I see no evidence to suggest that Eric Harris ever got laid.
It seems clear that Dylan never got his dick wet, either.
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Both Cullen and Kass have pointed out, quite correctly, that the killers did not discuss bullying at length in their diaries.
They lamented their lack of social prominence. They expressed resentment toward those who failed to give them the "respect" they felt they deserved ... and anger toward the "stuck-up kids" who regarded them as inferior ... but they did not dwell much upon the humiliations that they experienced from time to time.
They did, however, expatiate upon their sexual longings and frustrations.
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I think we can safely assume that Dylan felt a certain stirring in his underwear when he gazed at one of his various "beloveds."
Eric very explicitly stated that looking at certain girls made him want to drool.
And his freshman-rape fantasy made clear that he (like many "normal" people) conflated sex with violence, at least on occasion.
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As has been widely noted, Eric Harris ended his "wolf-god" journal with a whiny entry about his inability to "get some."
I have engaged in a number of arguments with various Cullenistas about the significance of that entry. Some maintain that Eric was merely expressing frustration that he couldn't get sex sex sex every minute of every day.
"He was a horny bastard, but that doesn't mean he didn't get any."
I disagree.
I contend that Eric's frustration ran much deeper than that. I contend that he was desperate to "get some," and finally prove to himself that he was a real man.
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We know that he was depressed by his inability to score a prom date. Numerous acquaintances have testified about that.
And many on this board have noted that his conduct toward Susan DeWitt on the 17th was fairly provocative.
He sent a clear signal to her: "I want to fuck."
She didn't respond to it.
Most men can relate.
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The social status of a male is directly related to his ability to convince a female to open her legs. Indeed, the definition of an "alpha male" is that he has his pick of the females in the pack.
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In almost any American high school, prominent athletes constitute a large portion, if not the entirety, of the "alpha male" pack. They stand at the top of the social structure.
Eric placed a number of prominent athletes on his shit lists.
Some (Cullen, in particular) have attempted to minimize the importance of these lists - by claiming, for example. that Tiger Woods was included on one of them.
I think they're a bit more significant than that.
In particular, I think it's significant that Eric made a "Class of '98 Who Should Have Died" list.
By all accounts, his junior year was his roughest, and whatever bullying he did endure during his tenure at the school was at its worst during that year - especially around January.
Keep in mind that Eric wrote no journal entries during the 1997-98 school year, except for one in April.
It's very difficult for us to know precisely what he was thinking during the period when the plans for NBK were being formulated.
We only know what his thinking was after he and Dylan had more or less finalized their plans.
By that time, Eric had already committed themselves, body and soul, to their deadly quest.
I would really like to know what he was thinking just a few months before.
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Brooks Brown has stated that Eric and Dylan were the two "uncoolest" kids in the entire school.
I don't know if I would go quite that far ... but it seems clear to me that Eric and Dylan were at or near the very bottom of the social structure.
Kass and Larkin agree on that point, as well. It's a very reasonable conclusion, based on the available evidence and the testimony of those who actually knew the killers.
(Cullen disagrees, of course ... but that dead horse has been beaten to a bloody pulp.)
Most of their friends friends were about as socially undesirable as they were ... but even Brooks had a girlfriend.
(He broke up with her right before Columbine's prom.)
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My idea of the massacre, as I have said before, is that it was a "perfect storm."
Unlike Cullen, or those who cling to the outmoded notion that 4/20 was a simple parable of humiliation and revenge, I believe that a variety of factors contributed to the two boys' mental deterioration.
How much importance should we ascribe to sexual frustration as a factor behind Eric and/or Dylan's psychological decline?
Should we regard it as a primary factor, or a secondary one?
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Any thoughts?
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PERSON 1
Hmm. This one is difficult for me to see. All I think of when I hear this is how YOUNG they were. 17 and barely 18. No one needs to have sex at that age! No one NEEDS to have sex period. At least 50% of the kids at my school were virgins when they graduated. I grew up in the bible belt though, so many people were TRULY happy as virgins, being that it was their choice. I guess it's different if you really really want to get laid but can't. But still...it's hard for me to imagine someone being THAT sexually frustrated. My mind (as a woman) tells me that they should just get over it and jerk off. How hard can it be?
I grew up with role models like my parents, grandparents, aunt and uncles, cousins, etc, who waited until marriage. My parents were 24 when they got married. I waited until I was 22 (despite many many offers) and recently I decided to wait at least until I'm engaged to have it again. I'm 25 and haven't had sex since I was 22. I'm living and breathing, and so far, I don't want to kill anyone or anything. Obviously I know that I am not Eric or Dylan, but I honestly believe that sex is overrated outside of love and/or marriage. I believe that anyone who thinks otherwise is greatly mislead.
Everyone finds someone eventually. Even disgusting abusive nasty guys find women for themselves. I find it hard to believe that Eric couldn't have EASILY gotten laid by his Freshman year of college. And if they lowered their standards, they could have been laid in high school.
In my opinion, having sex would not have prevented this massacre. If anything, it would have caused them more grief since they probably wouldn't have handled it well emotionally.
Also, is it possible to be "addicted to sex" without ever having it? (Not porn...but actual sex?) For someone to kill over lack of sex brings it into the category of addiction. Especially at that age! And, even more so at their particular school. Believe me. Columbine is an Evangelical school, which was what my high school was. It's very hard for non-christians to understand that people really are happy without sex and really are NOT having sex at young ages! I doubt Eric and Dylan ever felt "left out" sexually, considering most people at their school was not having sex anyways. If they went to a more urban school on the East or West coast my opinion might be SLIGHTLY different.
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PERSON 2
Teenage boys are horny bastards and typically the meanest, nastiest bastards are the ones getting laid a lot.
I mean, look at Rocky and his friends. Being "nice" won't get you very far.
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PERSON 3
Can you provide any literature or peer-reviewed studies to support this? To my knowledge there has never been a clinical link made between more sex & aggression in youth. Are you referring to the idea that male youth who have become sexually active are more likely to become agitated/angry through sexual frustration?
Here's an article I think I might have posted before but it might have been eaten by the purge.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]Quote:
Sex, Love, and School Shooters: Eric Harris
Was Eric Harris a virgin? Does it matter?
Published on July 23, 2010
School shooters typically experience extreme frustration and/or anguish in their pursuit of intimacy, whether their primary focus is on finding love or simply having sex. Sometimes this appears to be a significant factor in their attacks, as in the case of Luke Woodham. Luke's first victim in his attack was his former girlfriend, and the attack occurred on the one-year anniversary of their break-up. This is not to suggest that the break-up caused the attack--the situation was more complex than that--but the break-up loomed large in Luke's mind. In other cases, disappointment with girls is part of the picture, but is not as prominent.
What about Columbine? Though Eric Harris's attack was influenced by multiple factors, did the issues of love or sex play a role in the dynamics that culminated in murder?
Eric pursued girls throughout high school. He experienced some success, going on dates with a number of girls. He experienced a great deal of disappointment, however. He doesn't seem to have ever had a steady girlfriend, and girls typically didn't date him for long. Eric did not handle rejection well, and sometimes became threatening in response to refusals to go out with him. He once made a list of students from the class of 1998 who "should have died," and this list included girls who had refused to go out with him. Here he connected rejection with homicidal thoughts.
Related Links
Interestingly, despite his pursuit of girls, his journal says nothing about ever being in love or wanting to find love. In contrast, Dylan Klebold's journal is full of passages about his pursuit of love and his love for certain girls. Eric's journal suggests he was interested in sex, not love. Eric wrote about his fantasies of tricking girls he knew into his room and raping them.
Did Eric ever experience a sexual relationship? Though others have said "yes," I am not convinced. The only person I am aware of who claimed to have been intimate with Eric was a 23-year-old woman named Brenda. Her reporting, however, is highly problematic. She first came forward with her claim nearly three months after the attack at Columbine. She was interviewed by reporters and the Colorado Bureau of Investigation (CBI). There are several discrepancies between these interviews. In addition, she gave the CBI a photograph she claimed was of Eric, but which the CBI concluded was not Eric. She also gave them a voicemail recording she said was from Eric. The CBI stated that this did not sound like any other recording of Eric. Later, Brenda told someone online that she knew about the Columbine attack and was supposed to have been part of it. When the CBI heard about this they again interviewed her. After hemming and hawing Brenda eventually admitted that she had made the story up. Also, Brenda claimed that she was introduced to Eric by a mutual friend; this person, however, has told me that this is not true--that he never knew Brenda. I have not been able to find any reference to Brenda by Eric or any of his friends. Thus, there is apparently no confirmation that she ever knew Eric. Given all these facts, her claim to have had a sexual relationship with Eric is highly dubious.
Eric's documents also seem to suggest that he had never had sex. The attack occurred on April 20, 1999. A month before this, on March 22, Eric made a list of things to do before the attack. Along with specific preparations for the rampage, he included the item: "get laid." On April 3, in his last journal entry, he lamented his inability to have sex, noting that maybe he was trying too hard, but that with the date of the attack closing in, he had to try hard. Though not conclusive proof, these documents suggest that Eric had not succeeded in his quest for sexual experience.
If this is true, does it have any connection to the attack? Besides Eric's list of girls who deserved to die because they rejected him, his journal suggests that his sexual frustration did play a part in his motivation. Eric wrote about his self-hatred and lack of confidence with girls and wrote, "If people would give me more compliments all of this [the attack] might still be avoidable.... You know what, maybe I just need to get laid. Maybe that'll just change some s--- around." As I noted in my book (Why Kids Kill: Inside the Minds of School Shooters), Eric was desperate for status, desperate to feel like a man. He was so desperate that he thought the attack might be avoidable if he could just "get laid." This would have changed his sense of himself, allowing him to feel more like a man.
Eric Harris had a complex personality with narcissistic features combined with self-denigration, an antisocial rejection of morality and values, and a powerful streak of sadism. There were multiple factors in his desire to kill people on a massive scale. One of these factors, however, seems to have been his sense of failure in the realm of manliness and sex.
PERSON 3 (another comment)
Unlike Cullen, or those who cling to the outmoded notion that 4/20 was a simple parable of humiliation and revenge, I believe that a variety of factors contributed to the two boys' mental deterioration.
This is my theory as well lporter. I've said over and over again it wasn't just one or two factors that played into this event. There were numerous psychosocialbiomedical factors at play here. And I believe it is important to examine all of them in order to gain a more comprehensive understanding of how Columbine came to be.
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PERSON 4
I don't know. I don't think they were that sex-obsessed, if they really really wanted to get laid, they could have gone to a hooker or rape girls during the shooting.
They seemed to be more frustrated that they just couldn't score at all and even had difficulties finding a date or a girlfriend. I think one of the main reasons was the frustration of permant rejection rather than just sexual frustration itself.
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PERSON 5
Agreed, I think they both longer for a serious relationship. Dylan sure writes about it in his journal, and I remember something about Eric kissing Susan on the cheek on prom night, or something.
Yes Eric wrote about rape but he had that opportunity on the day on the killings. But he didn't do anything about it.
Like people have been suggesting, it just seems like Eric and Dylan never thought things would change, so why even bother?
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PERSON 6
- Quote :
- Agreed, I think they both longer for a serious relationship
i agree
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PERSON 7
Great thread title!!
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LPORTER101
Great thread title!!
I'm sure it gives people a wonderful mental image.
Lately, my kinky side has been finding expression on the board. I don't know if that's a good thing or not...
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PERSON 7
- Quote :
- Lately, my kinky side has been finding expression on the board. I don't know if that's a good thing or not...
Better this board than your local park!
Hell,it's spring-make the most of it!!
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PERSON 8
A lot of teenagers want to “date”; it’s a rite of passage for adolescents, a symbol of social acceptance and maturity. They meet potential mates at school, work or the mall, and find initial attraction to be purely physical. They stumble along, still learning what keeps them attracted beyond the initial physical chemistry and may experiment with sexual behavior to varying degrees.
Senior Year in high school arrived for Eric and Dylan.
Finally.
This was supposed to be “it”, the year they were finally at the top of the social ladder. And yet, Eric was being rejected by girls constantly, and, by most accounts, even more so than the earlier high school years.
Meanwhile, Dylan was obsessing about girls he didn’t even know. When he did come to know them as normal teenage girls who didn’t resemble the perfect soul mate he once envisioned, he blamed himself for being so gullible.
Combine this lack of acceptance by girls at such a critical time in their lives, with their own self imposed shame & natural teenage hormones, and you could have a great foundation to build deep self resentment, anger, and frustration.
I don’t put a lot of stock into Eric’s singular “rape fantasy”. I believe Eric was writing his journal for an audience for many reasons. The journal gave Eric the persona that he wanted others to see in him, not the reality of his perceived shortcomings. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that Eric only began keeping a journal after the plan for NBK was conceived. His writing style is composed as if he fully expects it will be discovered and read, but on his own terms, at a time of his choosing.
I disagree though, that Eric sent a “clear message to Susan that he wanted to f*ck” on April 17th. If we are to believe her account of their Saturday night “date”, Eric was very much restrained, respectful and polite to Susan.
A perfect gentleman, in fact.
A kiss on the cheek hardly translates into “I want to f*ck”, even in teenage speak.
Eric knew his parents would be coming home soon after Susan arrived; he would not have had time to “woo” Susan out of her clothes, do the deed & get back into a presentable condition before Major Harris would be coming downstairs to meet his son’s new special friend.
Eric knew this.
If he really wanted only sex from Susan, he would have taken her out somewhere private, gone in for a real kiss, evaluated her response and hoped for a green light. The arrest site would have been perfect for such an occasion...if it didn't represent yet another failure for Eric.
While I think that Eric did want to get laid before he died, I think his date with Susan was more about connecting with someone, anyone of the opposite sex for him. Eric craved validation on so many levels; Susan represented potential validation in the arena of dating & social acceptance.
The date with Susan may have even cemented the NBK plan for Eric unintentionally. Maybe Eric did want to make a move for sex with Susan, but found himself too insecure to risk the possible rejection. Maybe this frustrated him even more; he wants to believe he can be the dominant & self assured male he suspects some of his peers are, yet when given the opportunity to be alone with a girl who probably likes him, Eric simply puts his arm around her and offers her a peck on the cheek when she leaves.
You have to wonder what Eric was thinking when Susan left his house that night.
On the Basement Tapes, Eric says “We’re proving ourselves”. Guns represented power to Eric. One could argue that his gun was a phallic extension of masculinity for Eric, and on April 20th, Eric and Dylan were proving their masculinity with their guns, by determining who lived and who died.
I firmly believe Eric and Dylan both died virgins. I think “getting laid” represented an important rite of passage for Eric, and the fact that he never achieved this goal, despite his best efforts, was probably another painful reminder of his perceived failures.
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LPORTER101
Quote:
This was supposed to be “it”, the year they were finally at the top of the social ladder. And yet, Eric was being rejected by girls constantly, and, by most accounts, even more so than the earlier high school years.
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Combine this lack of acceptance by girls at such a critical time in their lives, with their own self imposed shame & natural teenage hormones, and you could have a great foundation to build deep self resentment, anger, and frustration.
Don't forget, though, that they felt entitled to sex and companionship. They felt entitled to social prominence, as well. They felt that they deserved these things, simply by virtue of their being alive.
"Isn't it fun to get the respect we're going to deserve?"
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A perfect gentleman, in fact.
A kiss on the cheek hardly translates into “I want to f*ck”, even in teenage speak.
Quite true ... but Eric was also snuggling up to her quite a bit.
People say, "Boys only want one thing." And, for the most part ... they do.
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On the Basement Tapes, Eric says “We’re proving ourselves”. Guns represented power to Eric. One could argue that his gun was a phallic extension of masculinity for Eric, and on April 20th, Eric and Dylan were proving their masculinity with their guns, by determining who lived and who died.
Yes, I would say so.
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I firmly believe Eric and Dylan both died virgins.
That's the best conclusion that can be drawn from the available evidence.
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I think “getting laid” represented an important rite of passage for Eric, and the fact that he never achieved this goal, despite his best efforts, was probably another painful reminder of his perceived failures.
Yes, indeed.
I must confess that I have a hard time feeling especially sorry for Eric (or Dylan).
Eric had more experience with women at 16 than I have at 25. Sure, he was no Don Juan, but he went on dates.
I never wasted time wondering why I couldn't get laid. All I had to do was look in a mirror.
I accepted that, as a 300-pound loner nerd with horrible acne, my prospects were extremely limited.
So I said, "Fuck it," and retreated into my own world. I concentrated on my own private hobbies and interests.
Eric could have done far worse.
Subject: Orgasm of Blood Thread? 
Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:05 pm
