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 Wayne Harris Notes Feb 28-Apr 27 1997 & Jan 29-Apr 21 1998

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February 28 1997

Randy? Brown 972-0602

- Believing Eric vs wife

- In her face

- Damage not there yesterday

- Sure it wasn’t there before ½”

- Yelling, yanking on car door

- 4th hour

- Eric talking

- 3 other kids

- Husband talked to Dean

- Being little bully

- Zach’s parents incident

- 3 pushes, yelling

- Crack in windshield

- aggression

- disrespect

- idle threats of physical harm, property damage

- overreaction to minor incident
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March 3 1997

Mr. Craig Place – Columbine H.S. Dean 982-4400

- Brooks Brown

- Eric wants to talk to Brooks with an adult present

“We have to take care of off school property”

- Accusations

- Snow balls

- Damage to Brooks’ car - windshield damage

- Plotting against friends’ house – other boys involved, including Brooks

- Alcohol

- Denial [scratched out]

Would talk to Eric today & the boys possibly together.

Very concerned about alcohol accusation

Would get police involved if necessary

Talked to Eric: 1) Snow ball, angry – Basically leave each other alone don’t talk about it – finished

Agreed all discussion is over with

Zach Heckler 978-0098 Veronica [Zach’s mom]

Brooks & Nick with Zach's sister [Jocelyn]

Damage to Brooks’ car

Damage to Nick’s house

Zach told Nick about Brooks & Eric that Brooks would leave Eric there

There was T.P. [toilet paper] and 1 egg at Nick’s

Sue [Klebold] 972-1131

Nick – Bonnie Baumgart [Nick’s mom]
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March 4 1997

Denial of even subject knowledge about alcohol between he and me.

Didn’t know what Mr. Place was talking about

Problem of common friends

Brooks most concerned about his car – told Mr. Place 3” crack in windshield

Over & done – don’t discuss with friends
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April 18 1997

Bonnie Baumgart 973-9536

- Has not contacted police

- No tree damage, glued door, T.P. - past problems – did not find out who did above

- Does not know of problems between Eric & Nick

Veronica Heckler 978-0098

- No complaints about Eric

- Knows nothing
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April 19 1997

Police Officer Deputy A.D. Walsh Jeffco Co. 271-5685 – Jeffco Co. 277-0241 (number he called from)

- Tree damage – did you see?

- Talk directly to Brooks Brown?

- We feel victimized, too

- Brooks Brown is out to get Eric

- Suggestions? Talk with Browns? 3rd party

- Dean of students

- We don’t want to be accused every time something supposedly happens. Eric learned his lesson is not at fault

Not available until April 23

- Brooks had problems with other boys – Manipulative & Con Artist

- If future problems – mediator? Lawyer? (arbitrator) “mediator services” through Jeffco County
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April 24 1997

Deputy returned my call


April 27 1997

Judy? Brown 972-0602 – called, left message – no return  

Follow up call – any further problems between Eric & Brooks

Eric hasn’t broken promise to Mr. Place – the Dean – about leaving each other alone

You told me of past problem with another boy, have you checked with his parents?

We feel victimized, too

Manipulative

Con Artist
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January 29 1998

Deputy T.S. Walsh, Deputy Phil Lebeda – Dispatch 277-0211

- 1st degree Criminal Trespass – Class V Felony - 1-3 years and/or $1,000-$100,000

Bob’s Towing 500 West Yale 789-2593

- $130.25

Juvenile Assessment Center 271-4567 Nora

- 1st Offense

- Juvenile

- Admitted guilt

- Willing to do community service & counseling

- Plead guilty

- Necessary to be represented in court?
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January 31 1998

Kelly 271-4555 730-2400 Family Adolescent Crisis Team

- Insurance – mental health

- Jericho Rd – 8 wks

- Federal Correctional Center

Anger management

Life Management 940-8103

- Anger management

Therapist Stu Brady 233-1440

- Lakewood – adolescent counseling

Mental Health Center 425-0300

- Sliding fee scale

School counselor ?

Juvenile Assessment Center – 6 month contract

Diversion – Community Service

Probation

Justin 271-4567 till 10:00pm Thursday-Sunday

- Call to have him explain ramifications

- What to expect in court

From Justin & Eric talked:

- [Eric writes] Probation, take any chances for reformation or Diversion, refer to Assessment Center, talk to D.A. & Deputy
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February 1 1998

Dan Jacobs (Sasha’s dad)

See psychologist for evaluation

- See what’s going on

- Determine treatment

Craig Rose 220-0577 Colo Blvd & Arapahoe

Mark Suyeishi 399-0888 290-0860 Orchard & I-25 – cheaper? Sliding scale

- Called back February 3 10:00pm

- Seemed ok, would see Eric 1-3 times to evaluate

- $100/50min session – not ?

□ I should call back to notify of going with another doctor
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February 3 1998

Det. Healy 271-5614 – to finish his work by end of week

D.A. to notify by registered mail

$100 – Window

$1,719.00 – Property

1st degree Criminal Trespass – misdemeanor

Felony Theft

Criminal Mischief – misdemeanor

[?] Psychologist $100/50min

[?] x 2

Diversion
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February 7 1998

Suggested by Sandy – Gary Borgeson PhD 989-1100 3190 South Wadsworth


FRIDAY January 30 1998 – Date of crime

Investigator John Healy 271-5614

Lmtc [left message to call] February 2 4:27pm, February 3 9:30am, 2:30pm – VIDEO, CD’s & case, glasses case, flashlight

◊Attorneys for Zack Heckler


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Feb 12 1998

4:30pm – Bob Miller 271-5656 Evidence – Impounded Property – CR# 982218

Call him at 12:00pm Friday – he will try to call Healy in AM
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February 13 1998

Attorney [Cherry Creek] – Jerry Cardwell – 388-2104 (Arlin? Knows)

- Q: owner of van

- Fees ?

- [Caldwell] talked to Dave Law – see notes

◊Christopher Kenney – 753-4545 296-2828 1225 17th

◊Troy Ciccarelli – 759-9669 950 South Cherry [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

- February 3 $150/hr $740 retainer

- Hand-holding, comfort, explanations of process

Stu Brady 233-1440 Passage Ways Counseling 1901 Kipling

lmtc [left message to call] 12:07pm February 3 – not ?

*Kevin Albert 794-7761 26 West Dry Creek Circle [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] behind Marie Callender’s [Restaurant & Bakery] tall building – appointment 3:00pm Monday February 16 – Auth No?

[Eric writes] – Talked to Miller, said he needed a release note from Healy to release stuff. Miller currently has my stuff. Left message with Healy

D.A. – court listens & in charge of filing

Public Defenders – represent indigents

Juvenile Division 271-6866

- Get “copy of charges” from wherever he was picked up & taken to

- D.A. & judge decide on Diversion – discussed after court appearance. Have to have a clean record for this. Community Service & classes

Police – file (report) – D.A. Office evaluate & decide charges – will go to court or diversion or assessment center. Probably go to court or diversion

lmtc (left message to call) Grant Anderson 26 West Dry Creek Circle – 798-5053

$500 retainer, $100/hr

Q: Call who to start Diversion

2-3 months initial formal charge petition – receive in person

By pass court system

1) Diversion vs. Probation

- Arraignment – advised of rights

- 1st Appearance in Court – Don’t plead guilty

- To all charges – plead not guilty

2) Pre-trial conference with D.A. is scheduled

3) Plea is reached juvenile assessment report

4) Sentencing

Dave Law 300 South Jackson St [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] – Retainer: Amount? Non-refundable $125/hr

1) Diversion – call Probation for Diversion plan immediately

2) Restitution

5th Amendment

Civil Case – “sealing of records”

Bad choice to tell all that evening

Filing done?

Be careful what we said

Age 16 – not contract – with attorney

- Need parents

Yes – Representation at time of D.A.

Yes – Preliminary Hearing – possible charges?

Plead not guilty – speedy trial

Pre-trial

Allen Karpelowitz – 271-6958

Diversion – Nikki – 271-6950

Need to be accepted into program

Alternative to Court(Court fees $250)

D.A. Office screens case – decides for diversion or court

Receive petition of delinquency in mail

Or

Diversion – notify by phone call by counselor

Supervised contract 6 months – 1 year

- Classes – fee

- Counseling

- Community service (non-profit organizations, churches, schools)

- Pay restitution to victim through Diversion office

- After time frame and if all is done well - dismissed
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March 3 1998

Andrea Sanchez 271-6952 Juvenile Diversion Office D.A. Office in Jefferson County

Appointment for interview – March 19 1998 3:00pm

- Main Courthouse, ask front desk – Diversion meeting

- Juvenile + at least 1 parent

Court date – probably within 1 month

- Plead guilty

- Enter Diversion

Appointment for Orientation – April 21 1998 5:30pm-8:00pm

- Juvenile + at least 1 parent

One additional meeting requiring at least 1 parent

- TBD

Diversion Program – 1 year

Charges held unless removed from program

Charges can be expunged in 1 additional year

Bob Krehauser

Andrea

Kevin

Eligibility for Diversion

Limited Immunity

- Answer truthfully

- Not usable in court (ex. violence)

No weapons
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April 7 1998

Andrea Sanchez

- Individual counseling – doing

- Anger management – 1 time

- MADD victim panel – 1 time 2 hrs

- Letter of apology to victim

- ? Justice ? – 1 time

- 5 hrs + parent, Saturdays

- 45 hrs community service
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April 21 1998 - Diversion Orientation with Andrea
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Day planner

1. Unwilling to control sleep habits

2. Unwilling to control study habits

3. Unmotivated to succeed in school

We can deal with 1 and 2 – TV, phone, computer, lights out, job, social

You must deal with 3 – Prove to us your desire to succeed by succeeding, showing good judgment, giving extra effort, pursuing interests, seeking help, advice

Phone – not after 10:00pm – not while studying

Computer 4 wks? – interim report from Rockweld, Miller

Assignment book

Bed 10:00pm unless studying
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Wayne Harris Notes Feb 28-Apr 27 1997 & Jan 29-Apr 21 1998 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Wayne Harris Notes Feb 28-Apr 27 1997 & Jan 29-Apr 21 1998   Wayne Harris Notes Feb 28-Apr 27 1997 & Jan 29-Apr 21 1998 Icon_minitimeFri Jan 13, 2017 6:31 am

Very interesting thank you for posting.
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PostSubject: Re: Wayne Harris Notes Feb 28-Apr 27 1997 & Jan 29-Apr 21 1998   Wayne Harris Notes Feb 28-Apr 27 1997 & Jan 29-Apr 21 1998 Icon_minitimeMon Mar 27, 2017 8:22 pm

sororityalpha wrote:

February 7 1998


◊Attorneys for Zack Heckler

Why is this in there?
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PostSubject: Re: Wayne Harris Notes Feb 28-Apr 27 1997 & Jan 29-Apr 21 1998   Wayne Harris Notes Feb 28-Apr 27 1997 & Jan 29-Apr 21 1998 Icon_minitimeMon Mar 27, 2017 8:59 pm

January 30 1998 Van Break-In Incident


Page 010309/010578:

Zach Heckler as a ‘Witness’


Page 010322/010328/010581/010587:

Eric mentions that he and Dylan were with Zach earlier that night before the incident. They left Zach around 9:00pm.

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PostSubject: Re: Wayne Harris Notes Feb 28-Apr 27 1997 & Jan 29-Apr 21 1998   Wayne Harris Notes Feb 28-Apr 27 1997 & Jan 29-Apr 21 1998 Icon_minitimeTue Mar 28, 2017 3:51 pm

sororityalpha wrote:
January 30 1998 Van Break-In Incident


Page 010309/010578:

Zach Heckler as a ‘Witness’


Page 010322/010328/010581/010587:

Eric mentions that he and Dylan were with Zach earlier that night before the incident. They left Zach around 9:00pm.

Really? I thought he was a witness for the Brooks/Eric ice chipping car incident, but had nothing to do with the van incident.
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Wayne Harris Notes Feb 28-Apr 27 1997 & Jan 29-Apr 21 1998 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Wayne Harris Notes Feb 28-Apr 27 1997 & Jan 29-Apr 21 1998   Wayne Harris Notes Feb 28-Apr 27 1997 & Jan 29-Apr 21 1998 Icon_minitimeTue Mar 28, 2017 4:15 pm

runreilly wrote:
sororityalpha wrote:
January 30 1998 Van Break-In Incident


Page 010309/010578:

Zach Heckler as a ‘Witness’


Page 010322/010328/010581/010587:

Eric mentions that he and Dylan were with Zach earlier that night before the incident. They left Zach around 9:00pm.

Really?  I thought he was a witness for the Brooks/Eric ice chipping car incident, but had nothing to do with the van incident.

Zach was not involved in the break in. Eric and Dylan were with Zach that night though. Then Zach left them and Eric and Dylan went to the lookout point without him. He was probably just witness to saying they left him but were with him earlier in the night

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PostSubject: Re: Wayne Harris Notes Feb 28-Apr 27 1997 & Jan 29-Apr 21 1998   Wayne Harris Notes Feb 28-Apr 27 1997 & Jan 29-Apr 21 1998 Icon_minitimeThu May 03, 2018 5:15 am

It's odd that he dated the page about the January incident as 1/29/98 since they were arrested on the 30th. I know people date things incorrectly sometimes, it's just strange.

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PostSubject: Re: Wayne Harris Notes Feb 28-Apr 27 1997 & Jan 29-Apr 21 1998   Wayne Harris Notes Feb 28-Apr 27 1997 & Jan 29-Apr 21 1998 Icon_minitimeFri May 04, 2018 8:26 pm

Interesting how almost a year to the day before the shooting Eric had his diversion orientation. Is the last entry you posted the last one Wayne Harris wrote in Journal? I always thought he wrote in it up to a few months prior to shooting.
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PostSubject: Re: Wayne Harris Notes Feb 28-Apr 27 1997 & Jan 29-Apr 21 1998   Wayne Harris Notes Feb 28-Apr 27 1997 & Jan 29-Apr 21 1998 Icon_minitimeSun Nov 11, 2018 5:15 am

Wow I’ve never noticed how weird that was? The last time Wayne supposedly wrote in his journal was April 21 a year to date before the incident? I wonder if there was other writings and even some possibly from Eric’s mom that they just held as private evidence

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PostSubject: Re: Wayne Harris Notes Feb 28-Apr 27 1997 & Jan 29-Apr 21 1998   Wayne Harris Notes Feb 28-Apr 27 1997 & Jan 29-Apr 21 1998 Icon_minitimeSun Nov 11, 2018 9:47 am

It’s interesting that Wayne wrote “bad choice to tell all that evening” and “be careful what we said” in regards to Eric’s criminal trespass.

Much of the population over share with law enforcement thinking that means cooperation, and that ‘cooperation’ means you’re innocent; when in reality, it’s a right to remain silent, etc, and right to refuse a search without a warrant, etc. because anything you say can and will be used against you.

It sheds light as to why the Harris’ were so hush hush when the shooting happened. Their past experiences with the law made it apparent that by divulging too much to authorities could/would not be in their favor.

Unfortunately that  was viewed as being ‘non cooperative’ with authorities on the day of the massacre and resulted in the Harris’ being viewed negatively.
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Wayne Harris Notes Feb 28-Apr 27 1997 & Jan 29-Apr 21 1998 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Wayne Harris Notes Feb 28-Apr 27 1997 & Jan 29-Apr 21 1998   Wayne Harris Notes Feb 28-Apr 27 1997 & Jan 29-Apr 21 1998 Icon_minitimeSun Nov 11, 2018 3:45 pm

-
Quote :
Zach’s parents incident
I wonder what this was?

Zach was a bit of a trouble maker back then too. He did some shady things outside of the stuff he did with Eric and Dylan.

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PostSubject: Re: Wayne Harris Notes Feb 28-Apr 27 1997 & Jan 29-Apr 21 1998   Wayne Harris Notes Feb 28-Apr 27 1997 & Jan 29-Apr 21 1998 Icon_minitimeSun Nov 11, 2018 4:23 pm

Screamingophelia wrote:
-
Quote :
Zach’s parents incident
I wonder what this was?

Zach was a bit of a trouble maker back then too. He did some shady things outside of the stuff he did with Eric and Dylan.



True. This does make me sometimes wonder how things may have went IF Zach had been involved in the Van break in as well. scratch
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PostSubject: Re: Wayne Harris Notes Feb 28-Apr 27 1997 & Jan 29-Apr 21 1998   Wayne Harris Notes Feb 28-Apr 27 1997 & Jan 29-Apr 21 1998 Icon_minitimeSun Nov 11, 2018 4:34 pm

ShadowedGoddess wrote:
Screamingophelia wrote:
-
Quote :
Zach’s parents incident
I wonder what this was?

Zach was a bit of a trouble maker back then too. He did some shady things outside of the stuff he did with Eric and Dylan.



True. This does make me sometimes wonder how things may have went IF Zach had been involved in the Van break in as well. scratch

What Sue said in her book about one of them trying to get out of a moving car makes it sound like Zach and Devon were REALLY dramatic...

Zach wrote a threatening letter, he also shot someones window out and his senior quote was "I hate this school" then all the crap he said about Dylan before the shooting etc.. and then after... I mean I don't blame him for being pissed but he still spoke to Dylan every night on the phone and listened to him. They had an interesting friendship... it does make me wonder if Dylan tried to tell him or maybe let some things slip. Dylan did tell Nate about his gun. I find it interesting how the gun culture is/was. Nate was worried about Dylan hanging out with Mark because he thought he was doing drugs and that worried him but a gun he was like 'meh, okay"


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PostSubject: Re: Wayne Harris Notes Feb 28-Apr 27 1997 & Jan 29-Apr 21 1998   Wayne Harris Notes Feb 28-Apr 27 1997 & Jan 29-Apr 21 1998 Icon_minitimeSun Nov 11, 2018 5:03 pm

Screamingophelia wrote:
ShadowedGoddess wrote:
Screamingophelia wrote:
-
Quote :
Zach’s parents incident
I wonder what this was?

Zach was a bit of a trouble maker back then too. He did some shady things outside of the stuff he did with Eric and Dylan.



True. This does make me sometimes wonder how things may have went IF Zach had been involved in the Van break in as well. scratch

What Sue said in her book about one of  them trying to get out of a moving car makes it sound like Zach and Devon were REALLY dramatic...


BAHAHA! Very true. Oh the teenage drama!  Rolling Eyes
 
Although I once got very slight road rash from a minor motorcycle accident. Not pleasant at all. Haha  SO I'd hate to imagine what bailing out of a moving vehicle would be like. Shocked
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PostSubject: Re: Wayne Harris Notes Feb 28-Apr 27 1997 & Jan 29-Apr 21 1998   Wayne Harris Notes Feb 28-Apr 27 1997 & Jan 29-Apr 21 1998 Icon_minitimeSun Nov 11, 2018 5:15 pm

Screamingophelia wrote:
ShadowedGoddess wrote:
Screamingophelia wrote:
-
Quote :
Zach’s parents incident
I wonder what this was?

Zach was a bit of a trouble maker back then too. He did some shady things outside of the stuff he did with Eric and Dylan.



True. This does make me sometimes wonder how things may have went IF Zach had been involved in the Van break in as well. scratch

What Sue said in her book about one of  them trying to get out of a moving car makes it sound like Zach and Devon were REALLY dramatic...

Zach wrote a threatening letter, he also shot someones window out and his senior quote was "I hate this school"

You'd think E&D were paragons of mental health after listening to some of this stuff. 

Really, it does make me curious though. What causes a person like Zach or Chris Morris decide not to go on a killing spree, while Eric and Dylan do? We could certainly argue that the former had just as many, if not more warning signs as the actual shooters.

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PostSubject: Re: Wayne Harris Notes Feb 28-Apr 27 1997 & Jan 29-Apr 21 1998   Wayne Harris Notes Feb 28-Apr 27 1997 & Jan 29-Apr 21 1998 Icon_minitimeSun Nov 11, 2018 5:37 pm

QuestionMark wrote:
Screamingophelia wrote:
ShadowedGoddess wrote:
Screamingophelia wrote:
-
Quote :
Zach’s parents incident
I wonder what this was?

Zach was a bit of a trouble maker back then too. He did some shady things outside of the stuff he did with Eric and Dylan.



True. This does make me sometimes wonder how things may have went IF Zach had been involved in the Van break in as well. scratch

What Sue said in her book about one of  them trying to get out of a moving car makes it sound like Zach and Devon were REALLY dramatic...

Zach wrote a threatening letter, he also shot someones window out and his senior quote was "I hate this school"

You'd think E&D were paragons of mental health after listening to some of this stuff. 

Really, it does make me curious though. What causes a person like Zach or Chris Morris decide not to go on a killing spree, while Eric and Dylan do? We could certainly argue that the former had just as many, if not more warning signs as the actual shooters.


Agreed. That does make you wonder. Chris Morris was said to be troubled, and got into his fair share of mischief, fights etc. too.


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PostSubject: Re: Wayne Harris Notes Feb 28-Apr 27 1997 & Jan 29-Apr 21 1998   Wayne Harris Notes Feb 28-Apr 27 1997 & Jan 29-Apr 21 1998 Icon_minitimeSun Nov 11, 2018 6:52 pm

ShadowedGoddess wrote:
QuestionMark wrote:
Screamingophelia wrote:
ShadowedGoddess wrote:
Screamingophelia wrote:
-
Quote :
Zach’s parents incident
I wonder what this was?

Zach was a bit of a trouble maker back then too. He did some shady things outside of the stuff he did with Eric and Dylan.



True. This does make me sometimes wonder how things may have went IF Zach had been involved in the Van break in as well. scratch

What Sue said in her book about one of  them trying to get out of a moving car makes it sound like Zach and Devon were REALLY dramatic...

Zach wrote a threatening letter, he also shot someones window out and his senior quote was "I hate this school"

You'd think E&D were paragons of mental health after listening to some of this stuff. 

Really, it does make me curious though. What causes a person like Zach or Chris Morris decide not to go on a killing spree, while Eric and Dylan do? We could certainly argue that the former had just as many, if not more warning signs as the actual shooters.


Agreed. That does make you wonder. Chris Morris was said to be troubled, and got into his fair share of mischief, fights etc. too.  




I’m pretty sure Chris pulled a knife out on someone...

These are excellent points. I mean there’s several little things I can think of I think Zack and Chris were a little more accepted in school. But I could be wrong.However why on earth would that make somebody do something so horrible?

I would also love to know when the point of no return was. was it March when they’re like OK we’re really doing this ..... was it a week before?


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PostSubject: Re: Wayne Harris Notes Feb 28-Apr 27 1997 & Jan 29-Apr 21 1998   Wayne Harris Notes Feb 28-Apr 27 1997 & Jan 29-Apr 21 1998 Icon_minitimeSun Nov 11, 2018 7:34 pm

Screamingophelia wrote:
ShadowedGoddess wrote:
QuestionMark wrote:
Screamingophelia wrote:
ShadowedGoddess wrote:
Screamingophelia wrote:
-
Quote :
Zach’s parents incident
I wonder what this was?

Zach was a bit of a trouble maker back then too. He did some shady things outside of the stuff he did with Eric and Dylan.



True. This does make me sometimes wonder how things may have went IF Zach had been involved in the Van break in as well. scratch

What Sue said in her book about one of  them trying to get out of a moving car makes it sound like Zach and Devon were REALLY dramatic...

Zach wrote a threatening letter, he also shot someones window out and his senior quote was "I hate this school"

You'd think E&D were paragons of mental health after listening to some of this stuff. 

Really, it does make me curious though. What causes a person like Zach or Chris Morris decide not to go on a killing spree, while Eric and Dylan do? We could certainly argue that the former had just as many, if not more warning signs as the actual shooters.


Agreed. That does make you wonder. Chris Morris was said to be troubled, and got into his fair share of mischief, fights etc. too.  




I’m pretty sure Chris pulled a knife out on someone...

These are excellent points. I mean there’s several little things I can think of I think Zack and Chris were a little more accepted  in school. But I could be wrong.However why on  earth would that make somebody do something so horrible?

I would also love to know when the point of no return was.  was it March when they’re like OK we’re really doing this ..... was it a week before?



True I badly want to when both decided that there was no going back.
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PostSubject: Re: Wayne Harris Notes Feb 28-Apr 27 1997 & Jan 29-Apr 21 1998   Wayne Harris Notes Feb 28-Apr 27 1997 & Jan 29-Apr 21 1998 Icon_minitimeMon Nov 12, 2018 7:24 am

Screamingophelia wrote:


I’m pretty sure Chris pulled a knife out on someone... 

Is it any wonder he was considered to be in league with Eric and Dylan? Jesus Christ...

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PostSubject: Re: Wayne Harris Notes Feb 28-Apr 27 1997 & Jan 29-Apr 21 1998   Wayne Harris Notes Feb 28-Apr 27 1997 & Jan 29-Apr 21 1998 Icon_minitimeMon Nov 12, 2018 2:34 pm

I think the point of no return was that morning really. I used to think it was the day they got the guns but even then they could have turned it around.

Mentally speaking though I think both were gone months before

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PostSubject: Re: Wayne Harris Notes Feb 28-Apr 27 1997 & Jan 29-Apr 21 1998   Wayne Harris Notes Feb 28-Apr 27 1997 & Jan 29-Apr 21 1998 Icon_minitimeWed Nov 21, 2018 4:45 pm

Tons of kids absolutely loathe their high school and some of the people in it, but never resort to murder. It seems people like Zach and Chris saw the bigger picture and realized that once they graduate they will never have to see those kids again. In my opinion E&D saw graduation as them "failing" in the sense that if they graduated that meant they let the school and all the bullies "win" because they just dealt with it and did nothing. Let's not forget there was literally 2 weeks of school left, a mere 2 weeks and they would never have to see any of those kids again if they chose so. They wanted to be infamous, and they wanted revenge. They just couldn't let go of all the wrong they felt was done to them.
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PostSubject: Re: Wayne Harris Notes Feb 28-Apr 27 1997 & Jan 29-Apr 21 1998   Wayne Harris Notes Feb 28-Apr 27 1997 & Jan 29-Apr 21 1998 Icon_minitimeThu Nov 22, 2018 4:57 am

slippy123 wrote:
Tons of kids absolutely loathe their high school and some of the people in it, but never resort to murder. It seems people like Zach and Chris saw the bigger picture and realized that once they graduate they will never have to see those kids again. In my opinion E&D saw graduation as them "failing" in the sense that if they graduated that meant they let the school and all the bullies "win" because they just dealt with it and did nothing. Let's not forget there was literally 2 weeks of school left, a mere 2 weeks and they would never have to see any of those kids again if they chose so. They wanted to be infamous, and they wanted revenge. They just couldn't let go of all the wrong they felt was done to them.

On the surface, this seems like a reasonable post. I certainly can't find anything logically wrong with it and it makes a good amount of sense. So, why then do I still feel like this isn't a satisfying answer? I can't help but feel that there's something more to it, that there's some sort of deeper reason as to why a couple of delinquents like Chris and Zach didn't decide to commit murder, but Eric and Dylan did.

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PostSubject: Re: Wayne Harris Notes Feb 28-Apr 27 1997 & Jan 29-Apr 21 1998   Wayne Harris Notes Feb 28-Apr 27 1997 & Jan 29-Apr 21 1998 Icon_minitimeThu Nov 22, 2018 7:05 am

QuestionMark wrote:
slippy123 wrote:
Tons of kids absolutely loathe their high school and some of the people in it, but never resort to murder. It seems people like Zach and Chris saw the bigger picture and realized that once they graduate they will never have to see those kids again. In my opinion E&D saw graduation as them "failing" in the sense that if they graduated that meant they let the school and all the bullies "win" because they just dealt with it and did nothing. Let's not forget there was literally 2 weeks of school left, a mere 2 weeks and they would never have to see any of those kids again if they chose so. They wanted to be infamous, and they wanted revenge. They just couldn't let go of all the wrong they felt was done to them.

On the surface, this seems like a reasonable post. I certainly can't find anything logically wrong with it and it makes a good amount of sense. So, why then do I still feel like this isn't a satisfying answer? I can't help but feel that there's something more to it, that there's some sort of deeper reason as to why a couple of delinquents like Chris and Zach didn't decide to commit murder, but Eric and Dylan did.

I don’t think you’re wrong. I think there was definitely something else going on, I wish I knew what it was. was

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PostSubject: Re: Wayne Harris Notes Feb 28-Apr 27 1997 & Jan 29-Apr 21 1998   Wayne Harris Notes Feb 28-Apr 27 1997 & Jan 29-Apr 21 1998 Icon_minitimeSun Nov 25, 2018 12:11 am

A lot of people have said how incomprehensible it is that they would do something like this to start with, but especially with two weeks of school left. They would have been done with high school.
What I can't help but wonder though, is would college have been any better? And even if it could have been better, would they have believed that it would be better? Maybe they believed it would be the same Hell, just with slightly older kids. Dylan was going to Arizona, but I can't imagine kids in Arizona are any different than kids in Colorado. And Eric would almost surely have stayed in Colorado so he might have been going to college with the same kids he went to high school with.

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PostSubject: Re: Wayne Harris Notes Feb 28-Apr 27 1997 & Jan 29-Apr 21 1998   Wayne Harris Notes Feb 28-Apr 27 1997 & Jan 29-Apr 21 1998 Icon_minitimeSun Nov 25, 2018 8:06 am

SandraSmit19 wrote:
A lot of people have said how incomprehensible it is that they would do something like this to start with, but especially with two weeks of school left. They would have been done with high school.

People get very unnecessarily hung up with the conundrum of "school was almost over; why didn't they wait it out?", but to me this seems like the least important detail of the entire affair. I think that's been discussed pretty thoroughly before so I won't get into gritty details, but there are a host of answers to that particular question (for example, as you point out in the rest of your post, they might not have seen college as an alternative that would've had any appeal to them, being a different environment but just as much a living hell as the last).

What I get hung up on, as I've already pointed out, is that there were other kids at just Columbine who were at least as troubled as Eric and Dylan, perhaps even worse. I don't think the reason a person like Chris Morris decided not to shoot up the school too was because he had perspective while Eric and Dylan didn't - there is something way, way more severe at play, something that really makes you consider how we think as individuals and what guides our thought processes.

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PostSubject: Re: Wayne Harris Notes Feb 28-Apr 27 1997 & Jan 29-Apr 21 1998   Wayne Harris Notes Feb 28-Apr 27 1997 & Jan 29-Apr 21 1998 Icon_minitimeMon Nov 26, 2018 2:53 pm

That still make me think that some sort of mental illness was in play.

From all accounts Dylan and Eric both had some sort of empathy for others in their own way. They were never looked at as cold and calculating "evil" people.

Since they killed themselves we don't know how they would have behaved in court or in interviews so the experts don't have a ton to observe but I think it is also interesting to think about too.

I also think about the kids they were in diversion with who didn't get early release. I cannot imagine how they felt after 4/20. Sure they were kids that were on a troubled track but I am sure most of them would never fathom doing what Eric and Dylan did.

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PostSubject: Re: Wayne Harris Notes Feb 28-Apr 27 1997 & Jan 29-Apr 21 1998   Wayne Harris Notes Feb 28-Apr 27 1997 & Jan 29-Apr 21 1998 Icon_minitimeMon Nov 26, 2018 3:03 pm

I think for a lot of people no matter how bad life gets, you can think there might be light at the end of the tunnel. There may not actually be that light but you have a bit of hope that there is going to be an end to the suffering. I think for Eric and especially for Dylan, this hope did not exist. They saw themselves and the world under a shadow. Everyone and everything was "tainted".

For me I wonder if the Chris Morrises of the world are just better off mentally speaking. Perhaps no matter how bad life was back then, he was able to know that life was going to get better eventually. And he probably had higher self preservation.

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PostSubject: Re: Wayne Harris Notes Feb 28-Apr 27 1997 & Jan 29-Apr 21 1998   Wayne Harris Notes Feb 28-Apr 27 1997 & Jan 29-Apr 21 1998 Icon_minitimeWed Nov 28, 2018 5:35 am

Good old Mr. Harris is worried about Diversion programs and misdemeanor records being sealed...Little did he fucking know what he was in store for just one short calendar year ahead. We only get one shot at this life… Just imagine living his life from there on out…
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PostSubject: Re: Wayne Harris Notes Feb 28-Apr 27 1997 & Jan 29-Apr 21 1998   Wayne Harris Notes Feb 28-Apr 27 1997 & Jan 29-Apr 21 1998 Icon_minitimeWed Nov 28, 2018 2:19 pm

Some of what Wayne Harris writes down is very disjointed and vague. I wonder if he wrote it like that because he knew what it meant anyway (like shorthand) or if he always wrote like that.

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PostSubject: Re: Wayne Harris Notes Feb 28-Apr 27 1997 & Jan 29-Apr 21 1998   Wayne Harris Notes Feb 28-Apr 27 1997 & Jan 29-Apr 21 1998 Icon_minitimeSat Dec 22, 2018 10:38 pm

Lizpuff wrote:
I think the point of no return was that morning really.  I used to think it was the day they got the guns but even then they could have turned it around.

Mentally speaking though I think both were gone months before

it think the day of no return at the morning of the massacre was at least for dylan. i guess if he found some love meanwhlie, he would turn out of the original plan. he was so emotional, for me, for him it was always something between find some love or commit suicide. it makes no sense to go to a university with your parents just some time before nbk and have a look for your potential room for the next years when you sure know you'll be dead soon.

the point of no return for eric was for sure the day he finally gets his guns. he had no future plans, he just hates all mankind and wanted to left his footprint in history (unfortunately he did)
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PostSubject: Re: Wayne Harris Notes Feb 28-Apr 27 1997 & Jan 29-Apr 21 1998   Wayne Harris Notes Feb 28-Apr 27 1997 & Jan 29-Apr 21 1998 Icon_minitimeSun Dec 23, 2018 12:19 am

QuestionMark wrote:
slippy123 wrote:
Tons of kids absolutely loathe their high school and some of the people in it, but never resort to murder. It seems people like Zach and Chris saw the bigger picture and realized that once they graduate they will never have to see those kids again. In my opinion E&D saw graduation as them "failing" in the sense that if they graduated that meant they let the school and all the bullies "win" because they just dealt with it and did nothing. Let's not forget there was literally 2 weeks of school left, a mere 2 weeks and they would never have to see any of those kids again if they chose so. They wanted to be infamous, and they wanted revenge. They just couldn't let go of all the wrong they felt was done to them.

On the surface, this seems like a reasonable post. I certainly can't find anything logically wrong with it and it makes a good amount of sense. So, why then do I still feel like this isn't a satisfying answer? I can't help but feel that there's something more to it, that there's some sort of deeper reason as to why a couple of delinquents like Chris and Zach didn't decide to commit murder, but Eric and Dylan did.

Because we will never know the answer to some of these questions, so we find ourselves asking "but why", or "there has to be more" about many things about the massacre.
From all accounts, Zach was a normal dude who had friends and a girlfriend(s).
Chris had friends, was a big dude, over 6'3 feet tall, and was known to have bad temper if you messed with him, so people never really seemed to give him too much trouble.
I would assume E & D had it way more rough than Zach and Chris did, as Brooks claimed "E & D were the losers of the losers".
Zach and Chris probably didn't like the school which is a normal thing for most highschool aged kids, but they weren't low-key nutcases like E & D were.

In the end, I think the logical answer is that E & D ultimately wanted to be infamous serial killers, with a huge thirst for revenge, while Zach and Chris seemed to want to do something more with their lives.
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PostSubject: Re: Wayne Harris Notes Feb 28-Apr 27 1997 & Jan 29-Apr 21 1998   Wayne Harris Notes Feb 28-Apr 27 1997 & Jan 29-Apr 21 1998 Icon_minitimeSun Dec 23, 2018 10:19 pm

I don't believe there ever was a point of no return. I believe they must have been half-serious about the whole plan for a couple of months, just dreaming what it would be like, not really believing they would actually do it.

You see they dreamed big.

Then, as they began making actual steps towards realization, they probably recognized it's actually possible to commit what they dreamed and talked about for so long, and the pure joy of creating something and overcoming all the obstacles just overtook them.

From how the bomb (a critical part of the whole plan) was rather amateurishly thrown together, you can tell they were still at least partly kids who play at doing something instead of actually doing it.

What interests me much more is whether they, at one time or another, hoped to get caught, busted and exposed. From the video transcript (if we could only reach them sooner, if we only asked the right questions), you see they realized what sort of remorse their family and friends would feel, which begs a question: if the people around them had tried to reach them and asked the right questions, would E&D have called it off?

I don't think there was a point of no return before firing the first shots. There were just progressive little steps towards fulfilling what started out as another pompous teenage fantasy, and getting away with all of them, and getting neglected by everyone around, which probably reassured them doing it was not only possible, but almost necessary.


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PostSubject: Re: Wayne Harris Notes Feb 28-Apr 27 1997 & Jan 29-Apr 21 1998   Wayne Harris Notes Feb 28-Apr 27 1997 & Jan 29-Apr 21 1998 Icon_minitimeSun Dec 23, 2018 10:43 pm

Imo Wayne has the pants on in the house & Kathy is a doormat reason why Eric believed that women are are below men he got that from his dad.
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PostSubject: Re: Wayne Harris Notes Feb 28-Apr 27 1997 & Jan 29-Apr 21 1998   Wayne Harris Notes Feb 28-Apr 27 1997 & Jan 29-Apr 21 1998 Icon_minitimeMon Dec 24, 2018 12:49 am

Rebbie556 wrote:
Imo Wayne has the pants on in the house & Kathy is a doormat reason why Eric  believed that women are   are below men  he got that from his dad.

I don't think so.

Bigoted ideologies appeal to those who are disenfranchised, and feel powerless. Simple as that.

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