2 guys dressed as E &D show up at English Sci-Fi convention recently

At a Sci-Fi convention? :/

Apparently, yes.A lot of people there were in cosplay.

PanterA wrote:

At a Sci-Fi convention? :/

DarkofNight wrote:

Apparently, yes.A lot of people there were in cosplay.

PanterA wrote:

At a Sci-Fi convention? :/

It wasnt the cosplay part that surprised me, it was the costume choice. I understand dressing as E/D for Halloween or a dress up party, but i would think they would choose something more Sci-Fiy

That's why I found this interesting.They showed up in a place you wouldn't expect.

PanterA wrote:

DarkofNight wrote:

Apparently, yes.A lot of people there were in cosplay.

PanterA wrote:

At a Sci-Fi convention? :/

It wasnt the cosplay part that surprised me, it was the costume choice. I understand dressing as E/D for Halloween or a dress up party, but i would think they would choose something more Sci-Fiy

DarkofNight wrote:

That's why I found this interesting.They showed up in a place you wouldn't expect.

PanterA wrote:

DarkofNight wrote:

Apparently, yes.A lot of people there were in cosplay.

PanterA wrote:

At a Sci-Fi convention? :/

It wasnt the cosplay part that surprised me, it was the costume choice. I understand dressing as E/D for Halloween or a dress up party, but i would think they would choose something more Sci-Fiy

And did a great job of the costume to! The actual clothing is dead on!

I like this.

How come "Dylan" is shorter than "Eric"?!!

*headdesk*

Why would you do that, ANYWHERE? Why?! This isn't funny.

Idiots.

I personally see nothing wrong with it as I believe people have the right to fully express themselves in the way of their choosing so long as they aren't doing anything illegal even if some find it offensive.That's what freedom of speech and freedom of expression is all about .

Can I ask why you are calling them idiots? Are they idiots in your eyes because they went out in public dressed in a way you find offensive? I'd like to understand .

JDM87 wrote:

Idiots.

DarkofNight wrote:

I personally see nothing wrong with it as I believe people have the right to fully express themselves in the way of their choosing so long as they aren't doing anything illegal even if some find it offensive.That's what freedom of speech and freedom of expression is all about .

Amen but I wonder who that girl in the middle is dressed up as.

Freedom of expression is certainly what these people were exercising when they chose and then wore these costumes, and personally, I am not trying to sway anyone from believing in, supporting, or practicing it, either.

However, the people who are expressing their disdain and dislike toward the costume choices are also exercising freedom of expression.

Yumeko-chan was in the Columbine High School library on April 20, 1999, and she was next to people who were shot, and also saw people die, and wondered if and when she was going to get shot that day.

She, like all of you, and like the people in that photo, has the absolute right to speak her mind and opinion. And, she also has a personal reason to see something wrong with the costume choice, just like some of you don't see anything wrong with it.

I am sincerely not trying to be antagonistic with this post, nor do I want or expect anyone to change their views and feelings as a whole.

One of the comments here comes from someone who was there while all of this was happening. She was literally right in center the crossfire, and I think it is obvious as to why she made the comment she did.

Yumeko-chan wrote:

*headdesk*

Why would you do that, ANYWHERE? Why?! This isn't funny.

Who said it's supposed to be? That's just like people who were saying "why would one make a columbine game, it isn't funny at all".

Scypek wrote:

Yumeko-chan wrote:

*headdesk*

Why would you do that, ANYWHERE? Why?! This isn't funny.

Who said it's supposed to be? That's just like people who were saying "why would one make a columbine game, it isn't funny at all".

Apparently, the Columbine game was supposed to be educational or something. I don't see how though. It is a game where you go around murdering people, how is that educational?

I did not say anything negative about her or her experiences.She certainly has a right to her feelings &opinions.However, my reasons for being a fangirl are also personal.It is also because of the sum of my experiences that I am a fangirl and have been for over 10 years.I know it was very popular on the old board to mock fans of E &D and look at them as lower than dirt but we are human too with our own pasts and experiences .I've dressed like E &D on occasion.For me, it was about having another connection to them as well as it being a cool look.And I admit that I don't take well to people saying things like "Stop doing that ." or "Aren't you ashamed of yourself?" or ordering me to stop doing this or that.Submitting myself to the majority opinion is not something I'm good at.

tfsa47090 wrote:

Freedom of expression is certainly what these people were exercising when they chose and then wore these costumes, and personally, I am not trying to sway anyone from believing in, supporting, or practicing it, either.

However, the people who are expressing their disdain and dislike toward the costume choices are also exercising freedom of expression.

Yumeko-chan was in the Columbine High School library on April 20, 1999, and she was next to people who were shot, and also saw people die, and wondered if and when she was going to get shot that day.

She, like all of you, and like the people in that photo, has the absolute right to speak her mind and opinion. And, she also has a personal reason to see something wrong with the costume choice, just like some of you don't see anything wrong with it.

I am sincerely not trying to be antagonistic with this post, nor do I want or expect anyone to change their views and feelings as a whole.

One of the comments here comes from someone who was there while all of this was happening. She was literally right in center the crossfire, and I think it is obvious as to why she made the comment she did.

I didn't say anybody wasn't allowed to express their opinion. I'm simply wondering, out loud as it were, what their motivation was for dressing like Eric and Dylan.

DarkofNight wrote:

I did not say anything negative about her or her experiences.She certainly has a right to her feelings &opinions.However, my reasons for being a fangirl are also personal.It is also because of the sum of my experiences that I am a fangirl and have been for over 10 years.I know it was very popular on the old board to mock fans of E &D and look at them as lower than dirt but we are human too with our own pasts and experiences .I've dressed like E &D on occasion.For me, it was about having another connection to them as well as it being a cool look.And I admit that I don't take well to people saying things like "Stop doing that ." or "Aren't you ashamed of yourself?" or ordering me to stop doing this or that.Submitting myself to the majority opinion is not something I'm good at.

tfsa47090 wrote:

Freedom of expression is certainly what these people were exercising when they chose and then wore these costumes, and personally, I am not trying to sway anyone from believing in, supporting, or practicing it, either.

However, the people who are expressing their disdain and dislike toward the costume choices are also exercising freedom of expression.

Yumeko-chan was in the Columbine High School library on April 20, 1999, and she was next to people who were shot, and also saw people die, and wondered if and when she was going to get shot that day.

She, like all of you, and like the people in that photo, has the absolute right to speak her mind and opinion. And, she also has a personal reason to see something wrong with the costume choice, just like some of you don't see anything wrong with it.

I am sincerely not trying to be antagonistic with this post, nor do I want or expect anyone to change their views and feelings as a whole.

One of the comments here comes from someone who was there while all of this was happening. She was literally right in center the crossfire, and I think it is obvious as to why she made the comment she did.

No one has said anything negative to her, yet. I didn't say that anyone did. It is just a bit of a different story when she makes her point, and everyone who does not like the costume choice is expressing their opinions, and therefore, are also exercising their freedom of expression and speech.

On the old board it seemed that a lot of people did honestly respect and appreciate Yumeko-chan being there and sharing what she did, but there were others who seemed to outright ignore her. Possibly because they felt uncomfortable with how they acted there themselves, or because the things she discussed made them think more than they wanted to. That's what it looked like to me.

A large majority of people went way too far on the old board making fun of people, and I never agreed with it. Honestly. The only thing I personally found funny was LPorter's fanfiction, because some of the fanfiction he was critiquing at that time was horrible. Not even necessarily because it was about Eric and Dylan, but because it was poorly written and utterly lacked in imagination, and that was his point in writing his.

The things that bother me most are when people make fun of the victims, and harass their family members. I also don't like it, personally, when people try to find ways to harass Dylan and Eric's families. Even if they don't mean it maliciously, it is incredibly invasive and disrespectful to try to contact them. It is and will be a different story if they open themselves up to some kind of dialogue on a website or something, but they haven't, and I don't like when people brag about trying to contact them.

That is just what I feel. I don't make fun of everyone who feels compassion toward Eric and Dylan. I feel deeply compassionate toward them, myself. To be in that amount of pain and develop issues that would make you want to take out a bunch of people and then take your own life is too devastating to even begin to try to comprehend. I lost someone very dear and special to me, whom I love with all of my heart, to a very violent suicide. He'd said things about wanting to blow some place up and then do himself in during his multiple bouts of depression, too. But he didn't. He was angry at the way people treated him and others, and also didn't love himself. In the end, he just took his own life.

I have also been very ostracized, harassed, bullied, slandered, excluded, and attacked in my life. I am a grown adult and I still deal with this at my place of work, and believe it or not, within my family. It is just like a high school, and everyone who pulls this nonsense are all grown adults. It often doesn't "change after high school". I also don't pick on people for finding Dylan and Eric attractive. What bothers me is when they ONLY pay attention to them because of their opinion of their looks, make fun of the victims, and don't even try to learn about the massacre as a whole. Only thinking they're cute and reading a few screenshots of bits and pieces of their journals, and watching clips of their school videos and rampart range does not make them "researchers" who "understand" them, and that is what the ones that create the most trouble with people always seem to do. They don't know a fraction of what they're talking about, and don't even try, and they also BULLY and harass everyone who has a different opinion than them, or know more than they do. And they're obviously not realizing (or caring) that they, too, are acting in the same exact fashion that Eric and Dylan couldn't stand and couldn't deal with anymore, themselves.

One other thing I also cringe at, and that makes me sick, is all of the homoerotic fanfiction and homoerotic fanart about them that I see. Does anyone REALLY think Dylan and Eric would appreciate that? I honestly think it would infuriate, deeply offend, and hurt them beyond description, frankly. I just find the majority of it to be incredibly disrespectful to the two of them, personally. (And, no, I'm not homophobic. I am as far from homophobic as one can be. I have homosexuals in my family, and they are the few who actually treat everyone with respect. One of my best, dearest friends, and one of the most beautiful people I have ever known is a very open homosexual). I just don't think that Eric and Dylan would appreciate any of that after being called "fags" for a large portion of their short lives. The irony of all of this is that 99.999999% of it comes from people who call themselves their "fans". You'd think people who hated them would do that, but they rarely do.

I have not seen anything you have said here fit any of the description above, DarkofNight. I hope you understand what I am saying. I think it's deplorable that people went and took your personal information and made fun of you on the old board. I read that you said it was years back, so I didn't see it. I didn't start looking at that board until last year. Right around this time....in the spring of last year, actually. A LOT of people who did that on that board had NO room WHATSOEVER to talk about ANYONE else being a "fan", when the majority of those who would endlessly whine about it and attack others for doing it were huge "fans" themselves (even though they thought no one realized it). GARGANTUAN display of hypocrisy from those people, seriously. It also seems like you are very respectful toward the victims, DarkofNight. You have many photos of them, and seem to care about the fact that they lost their lives, too.

And I also refuse, and always have refused to conform to anyone's opinion about anything. They've always called me "rebellious", too, but very few have said it as a term of endearment, and I could not possibly care less.

Sorry this went off topic. I just wanted to explain.

Jenn wrote:

Apparently, the Columbine game was supposed to be educational or something. I don't see how though. It is a game where you go around murdering people, how is that educational?

I cannot see the educational factor in it, either. I can in many of the documentaries (although to me, they all still fall short), and potentially books about the subject, too (but obviously, they have all fallen short thus far, as well). But the game? I can't see it.

I just wanted to say how excellent this post is and how much I appreciate it. There is so much truth in what you have said.I think I do come off as defensive because I've been hassled so many times for my emotions and beliefs on E &D that I'm always expecting it.This has happened to me several times when I'm minding my own business and when I'm just trying to explain my position on this.I'm not complaining.Its to be expected but it does get old. Yes, I did get harassed by some people on the old board. Both in the form of them sending me personal messages and just replying to me on YT and then FB. The worst was when I was posted about in a thread about other fanboys and fangirls and a lot of nasty things were said and it went on and on and a lot of assumptions were made.Most of the regulars participated including LPorter so I really don't see him as a nice guy like most do.
I do feel genuine sympathy for the victims and their families.I've been told that I can't but I do.I think they went through a nightmare and it must have been hellish.The pain will never leave .I believe that E and D and their folks deserve just as much sympathy and consideration as the victims and theirs and this is where most people disagree and say they deserve none. I feel that people won't give any serious weight& consideration to what they went through before and what made them do the shooting ,preferring to dismiss them as crazy and evil.
I remember once there was a serious thread on the old board where it was posted about how much better it was for E &D and their families and the world that they were dead because they were crazy and would have only caused more suffering and have been suffering themselves because they were irredeemable and could never have been helped and therefore their deaths were a good and positive thing.I was appalled but most of the regular posters seemed to agree.Other threads included people lamenting that E and D's deaths weren't painful enough or wishing they could torture them .Awful.

I'm sorry for your loss.It's always terrible to lose someone you love.

tfsa47090 wrote:

DarkofNight wrote:

I did not say anything negative about her or her experiences.She certainly has a right to her feelings &opinions.However, my reasons for being a fangirl are also personal.It is also because of the sum of my experiences that I am a fangirl and have been for over 10 years.I know it was very popular on the old board to mock fans of E &D and look at them as lower than dirt but we are human too with our own pasts and experiences .I've dressed like E &D on occasion.For me, it was about having another connection to them as well as it being a cool look.And I admit that I don't take well to people saying things like "Stop doing that ." or "Aren't you ashamed of yourself?" or ordering me to stop doing this or that.Submitting myself to the majority opinion is not something I'm good at.

tfsa47090 wrote:

Freedom of expression is certainly what these people were exercising when they chose and then wore these costumes, and personally, I am not trying to sway anyone from believing in, supporting, or practicing it, either.

However, the people who are expressing their disdain and dislike toward the costume choices are also exercising freedom of expression.

Yumeko-chan was in the Columbine High School library on April 20, 1999, and she was next to people who were shot, and also saw people die, and wondered if and when she was going to get shot that day.

She, like all of you, and like the people in that photo, has the absolute right to speak her mind and opinion. And, she also has a personal reason to see something wrong with the costume choice, just like some of you don't see anything wrong with it.

I am sincerely not trying to be antagonistic with this post, nor do I want or expect anyone to change their views and feelings as a whole.

One of the comments here comes from someone who was there while all of this was happening. She was literally right in center the crossfire, and I think it is obvious as to why she made the comment she did.

No one has said anything negative to her, yet. I didn't say that anyone did. It is just a bit of a different story when she makes her point, and everyone who does not like the costume choice is expressing their opinions, and therefore, are also exercising their freedom of expression and speech.

On the old board it seemed that a lot of people did honestly respect and appreciate Yumeko-chan being there and sharing what she did, but there were others who seemed to outright ignore her. Possibly because they felt uncomfortable with how they acted there themselves, or because the things she discussed made them think more than they wanted to. That's what it looked like to me.

A large majority of people went way too far on the old board making fun of people, and I never agreed with it. Honestly. The only thing I personally found funny was LPorter's fanfiction, because some of the fanfiction he was critiquing at that time was horrible. Not even necessarily because it was about Eric and Dylan, but because it was poorly written and utterly lacked in imagination, and that was his point in writing his.

The things that bother me most are when people make fun of the victims, and harass their family members. I also don't like it, personally, when people try to find ways to harass Dylan and Eric's families. Even if they don't mean it maliciously, it is incredibly invasive and disrespectful to try to contact them. It is and will be a different story if they open themselves up to some kind of dialogue on a website or something, but they haven't, and I don't like when people brag about trying to contact them.

That is just what I feel. I don't make fun of everyone who feels compassion toward Eric and Dylan. I feel deeply compassionate toward them, myself. To be in that amount of pain and develop issues that would make you want to take out a bunch of people and then take your own life is too devastating to even begin to try to comprehend. I lost someone very dear and special to me, whom I love with all of my heart, to a very violent suicide. He'd said things about wanting to blow some place up and then do himself in during his multiple bouts of depression, too. But he didn't. He was angry at the way people treated him and others, and also didn't love himself. In the end, he just took his own life.

I have also been very ostracized, harassed, bullied, slandered, excluded, and attacked in my life. I am a grown adult and I still deal with this at my place of work, and believe it or not, within my family. It is just like a high school, and everyone who pulls this nonsense are all grown adults. It often doesn't "change after high school". I also don't pick on people for finding Dylan and Eric attractive. What bothers me is when they ONLY pay attention to them because of their opinion of their looks, make fun of the victims, and don't even try to learn about the massacre as a whole. Only thinking they're cute and reading a few screenshots of bits and pieces of their journals, and watching clips of their school videos and rampart range does not make them "researchers" who "understand" them, and that is what the ones that create the most trouble with people always seem to do. They don't know a fraction of what they're talking about, and don't even try, and they also BULLY and harass everyone who has a different opinion than them, or know more than they do. And they're obviously not realizing (or caring) that they, too, are acting in the same exact fashion that Eric and Dylan couldn't stand and couldn't deal with anymore, themselves.

One other thing I also cringe at, and that makes me sick, is all of the homoerotic fanfiction and homoerotic fanart about them that I see. Does anyone REALLY think Dylan and Eric would appreciate that? I honestly think it would infuriate, deeply offend, and hurt them beyond description, frankly. I just find the majority of it to be incredibly disrespectful to the two of them, personally. (And, no, I'm not homophobic. I am as far from homophobic as one can be. I have homosexuals in my family, and they are the few who actually treat everyone with respect. One of my best, dearest friends, and one of the most beautiful people I have ever known is a very open homosexual). I just don't think that Eric and Dylan would appreciate any of that after being called "fags" for a large portion of their short lives. The irony of all of this is that 99.999999% of it comes from people who call themselves their "fans". You'd think people who hated them would do that, but they rarely do.

I have not seen anything you have said here fit any of the description above, DarkofNight. I hope you understand what I am saying. I think it's deplorable that people went and took your personal information and made fun of you on the old board. I read that you said it was years back, so I didn't see it. I didn't start looking at that board until last year. Right around this time....in the spring of last year, actually. A LOT of people who did that on that board had NO room WHATSOEVER to talk about ANYONE else being a "fan", when the majority of those who would endlessly whine about it and attack others for doing it were huge "fans" themselves (even though they thought no one realized it). GARGANTUAN display of hypocrisy from those people, seriously. It also seems like you are very respectful toward the victims, DarkofNight. You have many photos of them, and seem to care about the fact that they lost their lives, too.

And I also refuse, and always have refused to conform to anyone's opinion about anything. They've always called me "rebellious", too, but very few have said it as a term of endearment, and I could not possibly care less.

Sorry this went off topic. I just wanted to explain.

"One other thing I also cringe at, and that makes me sick, is all of the homoerotic fanfiction and homoerotic fanart about them that I see. Does anyone REALLY think Dylan and Eric would appreciate that? I honestly think it would infuriate, deeply offend, and hurt them beyond description, frankly. I just find the majority of it to be incredibly disrespectful to the two of them, personally. (And, no, I'm not homophobic. I am as far from homophobic as one can be. I have homosexuals in my family, and they are the few who actually treat everyone with respect. One of my best, dearest friends, and one of the most beautiful people I have ever known is a very open homosexual). I just don't think that Eric and Dylan would appreciate any of that after being called "fags" for a large portion of their short lives. The irony of all of this is that 99.999999% of it comes from people who call themselves their "fans". You'd think people who hated them would do that, but they rarely do."


I could not agree more.I've long felt this way and feel it is terribly offensive to them because of all the reasons you stated. If you try to tell certain fans this though, you'll get you head bitten off. Some of the fanfiction out there is revolting. I think E and D would be flattered by the"straight" fanfics about them but someone actually wrote a fanfic about DK and his DAD . Then there was another fanfic in which a girl had to um perform with an animal while DK watched to prove herself worthy of him.Such vile stuff.Ugh.

tfsa47090 wrote:

I cannot see the educational factor in it, either. I can in many of the documentaries (although to me, they all still fall short), and potentially books about the subject, too (but obviously, they have all fallen short thus far, as well). But the game? I can't see it.

I can see the merits in the video game. I mean it was created and released in 2005 if I remember correctly. Information was not as easily accessible back then as it is now. there was allot of information in that game and for someone who had not doe much prior research would learn a lot from playing it! Someone who is first getting interested inn columbine research would do good to play it, it teaches you about Dylan's interest and past experiences working the sound for the drama club, most of the dialog in the game are direct quotes from Eric and Dylan, you learn exactly what weapons they used apart from the main guns and you get a real feel for them as people. It includes about half the basement tapes, tells you where they used to work, what kind of car Dylan drove. It also said that Eric was not into Marilyn Manson and even touches on Brenda Parker, which allot of people have forgotten about, not that shes important to Columbine as a case but its interesting none the less. While it may not hold educational value to those with some extensive prior research, to people who just got into Columbine yesterday, it explains allot really, which is surprising since it was made before all the documents had been released.
I guess those getting offended dont see that the a video game can be used as a information medium just as film can with documentary. You can tell when playing the game that it was not made with the main aspect focusing on fun.
Until you go to hell there is allot of cut scenes that explain allot

DarkofNight wrote:

I just wanted to say how excellent this post is and how much I appreciate it. There is so much truth in what you have said.I think I do come off as defensive because I've been hassled so many times for my emotions and beliefs on E &D that I'm always expecting it.This has happened to me several times when I'm minding my own business and when I'm just trying to explain my position on this.I'm not complaining.Its to be expected but it does get old. Yes, I did get harassed by some people on the old board. Both in the form of them sending me personal messages and just replying to me on YT and then FB. The worst was when I was posted about in a thread about other fanboys and fangirls and a lot of nasty things were said and it went on and on and a lot of assumptions were made.Most of the regulars participated including LPorter so I really don't see him as a nice guy like most do.
I do feel genuine sympathy for the victims and their families.I've been told that I can't but I do.I think they went through a nightmare and it must have been hellish.The pain will never leave .I believe that E and D and their folks deserve just as much sympathy and consideration as the victims and theirs and this is where most people disagree and say they deserve none. I feel that people won't give any serious weight& consideration to what they went through before and what made them do the shooting ,preferring to dismiss them as crazy and evil.
I remember once there was a serious thread on the old board where it was posted about how much better it was for E &D and their families and the world that they were dead because they were crazy and would have only caused more suffering and have been suffering themselves because they were irredeemable and could never have been helped and therefore their deaths were a good and positive thing.I was appalled but most of the regular posters seemed to agree.Other threads included people lamenting that E and D's deaths weren't painful enough or wishing they could torture them .Awful.

I'm sorry for your loss.It's always terrible to lose someone you love.

My gosh, I'm sorry this is going to be SO long!



Thank you for all of the very kind things you have said, including your condolences for the loss. It's almost been a year and it is just impossible to come to terms with. He had much, MUCH more going on than simply low self esteem and people hurting him, and all of it went back to his very early childhood. He got involved with horrible things, and then turned his whole life around and stayed on the right track and accomplished things he never believed he could, and then he slipped up and couldn't deal with it. He fell right back into his old ways and just couldn't go on. I am actually quite sure he regrets taking his life, wherever it is that his soul is right now, but the pain was impossible for him to cope with. I sincerely thank you not only for your condolences, but for everything else you have said about what I posted. I feel it could have been articulated much better than it was; I feel like I am always rushing, and that my typing fingers cannot keep up with my thoughts!

It was incredible how many people would assume things, and carry on slandering people, but would attack anyone who did it to them or their friends/associates. It's also astonishing how many of them would write out these preachy diatribes that in many cases DID have valid points, trying to "steer" others from not romanticizing Eric and Dylan, but then in the next thread they themselves would be yammering about how cute they thought one or both of them were, how they were also into things that they only learned about through the two of them, and so on. I've never seen such moronic hypocrisy on a columbine message board in all of my decade's (off and on) worth of research. On other (now mostly non existent) boards and site guest books, I've seen insanely rude people, people who worshiped them and disrespected the victims constantly, and people who constantly trashed Dylan and Eric, but never such thinly-veiled hypocritical fangirling like I did on that board.

The hypocrisy pertaining to saying things like that about Eric and Dylan: saying that they "know" everyone, and their families, and they themselves were better off because they committed suicide is just as judgmental, disrespectful and knee-jerk as the things that the obnoxious, disgusting victim bashers say. It's astonishing how blind these people are to their own behavior, and how quick they are to preach to everyone, when they behave identically to them. I can't tolerate EITHER of those types of people.

Very curious that they were always screeching at pretty much everyone who posted there for sources, but a select few could relentlessly yap on about their half baked, narrow minded opinions that they "knew" that two people they never met were "irredeemable", and then run and attack anyone else who posted their opinions. And again, turn around and coo over how cute they thought Eric was in a certain photo or video, and then tear apart someone who said they thought he or Dylan were funny in one of their videos. Just mind boggling, really. I just want to reiterate that they never did this to me, personally, and I only started reading things there in the spring of last year. I repeatedly read that the board had been "wiped" a few times throughout the years, so I know I missed a lot, but I still saw everything I just mentioned while lurking and after I signed up, over and over again.

DarkofNight wrote:

"One other thing I also cringe at, and that makes me sick, is all of the homoerotic fanfiction and homoerotic fanart about them that I see. Does anyone REALLY think Dylan and Eric would appreciate that? I honestly think it would infuriate, deeply offend, and hurt them beyond description, frankly. I just find the majority of it to be incredibly disrespectful to the two of them, personally. (And, no, I'm not homophobic. I am as far from homophobic as one can be. I have homosexuals in my family, and they are the few who actually treat everyone with respect. One of my best, dearest friends, and one of the most beautiful people I have ever known is a very open homosexual). I just don't think that Eric and Dylan would appreciate any of that after being called "fags" for a large portion of their short lives. The irony of all of this is that 99.999999% of it comes from people who call themselves their "fans". You'd think people who hated them would do that, but they rarely do."


I could not agree more.I've long felt this way and feel it is terribly offensive to them because of all the reasons you stated. If you try to tell certain fans this though, you'll get you head bitten off. Some of the fanfiction out there is revolting. I think E and D would be flattered by the"straight" fanfics about them but someone actually wrote a fanfic about DK and his DAD . Then there was another fanfic in which a girl had to um perform with an animal while DK watched to prove herself worthy of him.Such vile stuff.Ugh.

If you tell certain "fans" (this particular type who, in my view and experience, are just trying to be edgy and have something to fight with people about all day, honestly) anything that is not ass-kissing, "yes-man", and complimentary, they will lose their minds. They can not remotely cope with ANYTHING, let alone criticism, even constructive. When they are called out on ANYTHING, no matter how gentle and respectful the person or people may try to be when doing so, they will attack, harass, stalk and bully them for months, or more. They gang up on people. They THRIVE on it. They love when people start trouble, because they spend their lives doing nothing but starting trouble themselves.

I know a lot of them are REALLY young, but that excuse only goes so far. I was sort of hard to deal with as a teen, but I damn well never dreamed of being as disrespectful and spiteful as some of these people. I know some of them will definitely grow out of it, but I ASSURE you that very few will. Most of the people who behave like that will continue to behave the same way when they're in their thirties and older. I've seen it way too many times. Many may get much worse.

The ones that act like that are complete BULLIES themselves, too. Utter hypocrites, but just on a different "side" of the "argument", if that makes any sense.

Another thing they do, aside from the pathetic disrespectful homoerotic fanart and fanfic (and the other nauseating types of fanfic you mentioned) is INCESSANTLY post their suicide photo, and then whimper that it makes them "soooooo sad!!11!!111 ". But they'll post it 8000000000000000000 more times. Give me a fucking BREAK. THAT is also preposterously disrespectful. That, and the homoerotic fanart and fanfic is disrespectful not only to them, but to their families, and I also believe in many cases for the victims' families, too. Some of them have forgiven Dylan and Eric, and even if they haven't been able to do that yet, I still think it is highly offensive to them nonetheless.

The real truth about those sorts of people is if they themselves EVER lost a loved one I think they'd completely shut themselves down and wither away. I also think those sorts would die from a stroke/aneurysm/heart attack if anyone EVER came to their school, college, or some other place where they were present with guns and bombs. EVEN if it was someone who had the same issues as, and claimed it was for the same reasons that Eric and Dylan did. I'm telling you. They'd never be able to deal with it if they can't even remotely deal with being put in their place for not knowing what they're talking about, and for being ignorant and disrespectful. I mean no one should ever have to deal with something like that, or on the other side of the coin, reach the point to want to cause such a situation, either, but these people who laugh at and mock the victims (alive and deceased) wouldn't last a millisecond in ANY of their shoes.

Also, I find it amazing how the people who attack what they believe to be "fans" always seem to zero in on people who are not really doing anything remotely similar to these other people who disrespect everyone in the tragedy. I see that ALL the time. It's never happened to me, but I ALWAYS see this. Someone will say "I think there were fifteen victims at the end of the day", and they'll be harangued for years, but when some scumbag makes photoshops of the victims, or harasses their families, they never say too much to them. I'm not saying that no one ever says anything to those "fans", but I notice that it isn't as often as the other people. It almost proves that these people who do this are purely cowards.

I think Eric and Dylan would be flattered by some aspects of the female attention they get, but very frankly, and I hope you understand what I mean here------I don't think they'd find too much of it that alluring. I believe that they'd see right through the fact that most of these people are completely groupie-ish. A great deal of them would never bat an eyelash at them if they knew them in real life, and very few would befriend them and defend them if they saw them getting harassed, despite what they say. I say this because these sorts that I am referencing are all narrow minded, unoriginal bullies themselves, even though they try to convince themselves otherwise.

Please understand that I am not saying that everyone who claims they'd be kind to them wouldn't if they knew them, but a lot of what these other types blab on about is merely an attention whoring trend, and they only like the fact that it is controversial and pisses other people off. I also feel this way because both Dylan and Eric constantly made it clear that they were repulsed beyond recognition by phony, fake people; "zombies", and "followers". When Dylan said he knew they'd have followers, I truly do not believe that he meant people who all looked, talked, dressed, and thought alike, and all listened to the same music, watched the same movies, ate the same foods, and did the same things they did JUST because they did, or people who'd write horrible things like we've mentioned in regard to fanfic. I honestly think he meant people with unique mindsets, and strong personalities; true individualists who could see through all of the bullshit and take a fierce, sincere stand against it. Again, not a bunch of trendoids who all act like clones of one another.

Those types of people give everyone who looks into this subject a very bad name. I mean, no matter what, it is a controversial subject, and it arouses passionate debate. But there really is a DISTINCT-----just a world of difference between people who can empathize with the isolation, sadness, self hatred, and dysfunction within two kids and what it led them to very horrifically and tragically do, and their victims on all fronts that lost their lives along with the others who were left in the aftermath that are still struggling, as opposed to selfish, ignorant people who just like to provoke and stir up hatred and chaos for their own amusement.

I'm really sorry this topic has veered so far off, and I am the primary cause of it.

PanterA wrote:

tfsa47090 wrote:

I cannot see the educational factor in it, either. I can in many of the documentaries (although to me, they all still fall short), and potentially books about the subject, too (but obviously, they have all fallen short thus far, as well). But the game? I can't see it.

I can see the merits in the video game. I mean it was created and released in 2005 if I remember correctly. Information was not as easily accessible back then as it is now. there was allot of information in that game and for someone who had not doe much prior research would learn a lot from playing it! Someone who is first getting interested inn columbine research would do good to play it, it teaches you about Dylan's interest and past experiences working the sound for the drama club, most of the dialog in the game are direct quotes from Eric and Dylan, you learn exactly what weapons they used apart from the main guns and you get a real feel for them as people. It includes about half the basement tapes, tells you where they used to work, what kind of car Dylan drove. It also said that Eric was not into Marilyn Manson and even touches on Brenda Parker, which allot of people have forgotten about, not that shes important to Columbine as a case but its interesting none the less. While it may not hold educational value to those with some extensive prior research, to people who just got into Columbine yesterday, it explains allot really, which is surprising since it was made before all the documents had been released.
I guess those getting offended dont see that the a video game can be used as a information medium just as film can with documentary. You can tell when playing the game that it was not made with the main aspect focusing on fun.
Until you go to hell there is allot of cut scenes that explain allot

I do know that it was released before a lot was available to the public. I've never played it myself, but I've watched videos of someone running through it. Honestly, I did know a lot about the case at the time of the game's release (not everything, obviously), and I didn't pay any attention to the game itself when I heard about it. But, I do see your point about how it could be educational to someone who didn't know about the story at all.

As for people getting offended, those sorts will always unfortunately find something to be offended about, and on the flip-side, there will always be someone looking for negative attention who will latch onto it, flaunt it in everyone's face for the reaction they know it will receive, and in the process, make anyone else with a neutral, or at least a general, harmless interest in said subject look bad.

Just a few quick thoughts since I'm a little short on time.From my observations I think that some fans bash the victims for a few different reasons. Many of the fans tend to be people whom have spent most of their lives being kicked around while people laughed in their faces for being kicked around.They are angry, hurt and bitter and in E &D have finally found people to believe in and relate to. They've found people who would probably understand them which is not something that's easy to find.
The thought that somebody was willing to sacrifice everything to strike back at a school where they were degraded somehow gives them strength even though most fans would never try to do the same thing themselves. What E &D mean to us is hard to put into words.What they mean to us is tremendous.I've heard people say things like "If it weren't for E &D I couldn't have made it through HS." or "E&D stopped me from committing suicide" or "E &D gave me the strength to get out of bed every day and make it to school."

All the victims are worshiped in death and were portrayed as being perfect in life and several actually were among the elites of the school like Lauren, Rachel, Cory, Matt .Others like Cassie were pretty popular if not elite.I think the fans see in the victims the same kind of people who torment them every day at their own schools or work or whatever.That the actual victims may not have been guilty of much of that kid of behavior is not the issue.To them, they likely were and even if they weren't, its what they symbolize.

I think the last reason they do is is that they see people saying horrific things about E and D and it hurts them because they love E &D and they know the people saying these things care about the victims so they want to hurt them where it hurts by trashing the people they care about .

I know that none of the above excuses it but I do think thats a lot of why trashing the victims happens.I think it has become common for non Columbiners to automatically assume negative things about Columbiners and their behavior when those assumptions are not always true or there is so much more behind it that people want to look at and I like to challenge that somewhat.

tfsa47090 wrote:

DarkofNight wrote:

I just wanted to say how excellent this post is and how much I appreciate it. There is so much truth in what you have said.I think I do come off as defensive because I've been hassled so many times for my emotions and beliefs on E &D that I'm always expecting it.This has happened to me several times when I'm minding my own business and when I'm just trying to explain my position on this.I'm not complaining.Its to be expected but it does get old. Yes, I did get harassed by some people on the old board. Both in the form of them sending me personal messages and just replying to me on YT and then FB. The worst was when I was posted about in a thread about other fanboys and fangirls and a lot of nasty things were said and it went on and on and a lot of assumptions were made.Most of the regulars participated including LPorter so I really don't see him as a nice guy like most do.
I do feel genuine sympathy for the victims and their families.I've been told that I can't but I do.I think they went through a nightmare and it must have been hellish.The pain will never leave .I believe that E and D and their folks deserve just as much sympathy and consideration as the victims and theirs and this is where most people disagree and say they deserve none. I feel that people won't give any serious weight& consideration to what they went through before and what made them do the shooting ,preferring to dismiss them as crazy and evil.
I remember once there was a serious thread on the old board where it was posted about how much better it was for E &D and their families and the world that they were dead because they were crazy and would have only caused more suffering and have been suffering themselves because they were irredeemable and could never have been helped and therefore their deaths were a good and positive thing.I was appalled but most of the regular posters seemed to agree.Other threads included people lamenting that E and D's deaths weren't painful enough or wishing they could torture them .Awful.

I'm sorry for your loss.It's always terrible to lose someone you love.

My gosh, I'm sorry this is going to be SO long!



Thank you for all of the very kind things you have said, including your condolences for the loss. It's almost been a year and it is just impossible to come to terms with. He had much, MUCH more going on than simply low self esteem and people hurting him, and all of it went back to his very early childhood. He got involved with horrible things, and then turned his whole life around and stayed on the right track and accomplished things he never believed he could, and then he slipped up and couldn't deal with it. He fell right back into his old ways and just couldn't go on. I am actually quite sure he regrets taking his life, wherever it is that his soul is right now, but the pain was impossible for him to cope with. I sincerely thank you not only for your condolences, but for everything else you have said about what I posted. I feel it could have been articulated much better than it was; I feel like I am always rushing, and that my typing fingers cannot keep up with my thoughts!

It was incredible how many people would assume things, and carry on slandering people, but would attack anyone who did it to them or their friends/associates. It's also astonishing how many of them would write out these preachy diatribes that in many cases DID have valid points, trying to "steer" others from not romanticizing Eric and Dylan, but then in the next thread they themselves would be yammering about how cute they thought one or both of them were, how they were also into things that they only learned about through the two of them, and so on. I've never seen such moronic hypocrisy on a columbine message board in all of my decade's (off and on) worth of research. On other (now mostly non existent) boards and site guest books, I've seen insanely rude people, people who worshiped them and disrespected the victims constantly, and people who constantly trashed Dylan and Eric, but never such thinly-veiled hypocritical fangirling like I did on that board.

The hypocrisy pertaining to saying things like that about Eric and Dylan: saying that they "know" everyone, and their families, and they themselves were better off because they committed suicide is just as judgmental, disrespectful and knee-jerk as the things that the obnoxious, disgusting victim bashers say. It's astonishing how blind these people are to their own behavior, and how quick they are to preach to everyone, when they behave identically to them. I can't tolerate EITHER of those types of people.

Very curious that they were always screeching at pretty much everyone who posted there for sources, but a select few could relentlessly yap on about their half baked, narrow minded opinions that they "knew" that two people they never met were "irredeemable", and then run and attack anyone else who posted their opinions. And again, turn around and coo over how cute they thought Eric was in a certain photo or video, and then tear apart someone who said they thought he or Dylan were funny in one of their videos. Just mind boggling, really. I just want to reiterate that they never did this to me, personally, and I only started reading things there in the spring of last year. I repeatedly read that the board had been "wiped" a few times throughout the years, so I know I missed a lot, but I still saw everything I just mentioned while lurking and after I signed up, over and over again.

DarkofNight wrote:

"One other thing I also cringe at, and that makes me sick, is all of the homoerotic fanfiction and homoerotic fanart about them that I see. Does anyone REALLY think Dylan and Eric would appreciate that? I honestly think it would infuriate, deeply offend, and hurt them beyond description, frankly. I just find the majority of it to be incredibly disrespectful to the two of them, personally. (And, no, I'm not homophobic. I am as far from homophobic as one can be. I have homosexuals in my family, and they are the few who actually treat everyone with respect. One of my best, dearest friends, and one of the most beautiful people I have ever known is a very open homosexual). I just don't think that Eric and Dylan would appreciate any of that after being called "fags" for a large portion of their short lives. The irony of all of this is that 99.999999% of it comes from people who call themselves their "fans". You'd think people who hated them would do that, but they rarely do."


I could not agree more.I've long felt this way and feel it is terribly offensive to them because of all the reasons you stated. If you try to tell certain fans this though, you'll get you head bitten off. Some of the fanfiction out there is revolting. I think E and D would be flattered by the"straight" fanfics about them but someone actually wrote a fanfic about DK and his DAD . Then there was another fanfic in which a girl had to um perform with an animal while DK watched to prove herself worthy of him.Such vile stuff.Ugh.

If you tell certain "fans" (this particular type who, in my view and experience, are just trying to be edgy and have something to fight with people about all day, honestly) anything that is not ass-kissing, "yes-man", and complimentary, they will lose their minds. They can not remotely cope with ANYTHING, let alone criticism, even constructive. When they are called out on ANYTHING, no matter how gentle and respectful the person or people may try to be when doing so, they will attack, harass, stalk and bully them for months, or more. They gang up on people. They THRIVE on it. They love when people start trouble, because they spend their lives doing nothing but starting trouble themselves.

I know a lot of them are REALLY young, but that excuse only goes so far. I was sort of hard to deal with as a teen, but I damn well never dreamed of being as disrespectful and spiteful as some of these people. I know some of them will definitely grow out of it, but I ASSURE you that very few will. Most of the people who behave like that will continue to behave the same way when they're in their thirties and older. I've seen it way too many times. Many may get much worse.

The ones that act like that are complete BULLIES themselves, too. Utter hypocrites, but just on a different "side" of the "argument", if that makes any sense.

Another thing they do, aside from the pathetic disrespectful homoerotic fanart and fanfic (and the other nauseating types of fanfic you mentioned) is INCESSANTLY post their suicide photo, and then whimper that it makes them "soooooo sad!!11!!111 ". But they'll post it 8000000000000000000 more times. Give me a fucking BREAK. THAT is also preposterously disrespectful. That, and the homoerotic fanart and fanfic is disrespectful not only to them, but to their families, and I also believe in many cases for the victims' families, too. Some of them have forgiven Dylan and Eric, and even if they haven't been able to do that yet, I still think it is highly offensive to them nonetheless.

The real truth about those sorts of people is if they themselves EVER lost a loved one I think they'd completely shut themselves down and wither away. I also think those sorts would die from a stroke/aneurysm/heart attack if anyone EVER came to their school, college, or some other place where they were present with guns and bombs. EVEN if it was someone who had the same issues as, and claimed it was for the same reasons that Eric and Dylan did. I'm telling you. They'd never be able to deal with it if they can't even remotely deal with being put in their place for not knowing what they're talking about, and for being ignorant and disrespectful. I mean no one should ever have to deal with something like that, or on the other side of the coin, reach the point to want to cause such a situation, either, but these people who laugh at and mock the victims (alive and deceased) wouldn't last a millisecond in ANY of their shoes.

Also, I find it amazing how the people who attack what they believe to be "fans" always seem to zero in on people who are not really doing anything remotely similar to these other people who disrespect everyone in the tragedy. I see that ALL the time. It's never happened to me, but I ALWAYS see this. Someone will say "I think there were fifteen victims at the end of the day", and they'll be harangued for years, but when some scumbag makes photoshops of the victims, or harasses their families, they never say too much to them. I'm not saying that no one ever says anything to those "fans", but I notice that it isn't as often as the other people. It almost proves that these people who do this are purely cowards.

I think Eric and Dylan would be flattered by some aspects of the female attention they get, but very frankly, and I hope you understand what I mean here------I don't think they'd find too much of it that alluring. I believe that they'd see right through the fact that most of these people are completely groupie-ish. A great deal of them would never bat an eyelash at them if they knew them in real life, and very few would befriend them and defend them if they saw them getting harassed, despite what they say. I say this because these sorts that I am referencing are all narrow minded, unoriginal bullies themselves, even though they try to convince themselves otherwise.

Please understand that I am not saying that everyone who claims they'd be kind to them wouldn't if they knew them, but a lot of what these other types blab on about is merely an attention whoring trend, and they only like the fact that it is controversial and pisses other people off. I also feel this way because both Dylan and Eric constantly made it clear that they were repulsed beyond recognition by phony, fake people; "zombies", and "followers". When Dylan said he knew they'd have followers, I truly do not believe that he meant people who all looked, talked, dressed, and thought alike, and all listened to the same music, watched the same movies, ate the same foods, and did the same things they did JUST because they did, or people who'd write horrible things like we've mentioned in regard to fanfic. I honestly think he meant people with unique mindsets, and strong personalities; true individualists who could see through all of the bullshit and take a fierce, sincere stand against it. Again, not a bunch of trendoids who all act like clones of one another.

Those types of people give everyone who looks into this subject a very bad name. I mean, no matter what, it is a controversial subject, and it arouses passionate debate. But there really is a DISTINCT-----just a world of difference between people who can empathize with the isolation, sadness, self hatred, and dysfunction within two kids and what it led them to very horrifically and tragically do, and their victims on all fronts that lost their lives along with the others who were left in the aftermath that are still struggling, as opposed to selfish, ignorant people who just like to provoke and stir up hatred and chaos for their own amusement.

I'm really sorry this topic has veered so far off, and I am the primary cause of it.

DarkofNight wrote:

Just a few quick thoughts since I'm a little short on time.From my observations I think that some fans bash the victims for a few different reasons. Many of the fans tend to be people whom have spent most of their lives being kicked around while people laughed in their faces for being kicked around.They are angry, hurt and bitter and in E &D have finally found people to believe in and relate to. They've found people who would probably understand them which is not something that's easy to find.
The thought that somebody was willing to sacrifice everything to strike back at a school where they were degraded somehow gives them strength even though most fans would never try to do the same thing themselves. What E &D mean to us is hard to put into words.What they mean to us is tremendous.I've heard people say things like "If it weren't for E &D I couldn't have made it through HS." or "E&D stopped me from committing suicide" or "E &D gave me the strength to get out of bed every day and make it to school."

All the victims are worshiped in death and were portrayed as being perfect in life and several actually were among the elites of the school like Lauren, Rachel, Cory, Matt .Others like Cassie were pretty popular if not elite.I think the fans see in the victims the same kind of people who torment them every day at their own schools or work or whatever.That the actual victims may not have been guilty of much of that kid of behavior is not the issue.To them, they likely were and even if they weren't, its what they symbolize.

I think the last reason they do is is that they see people saying horrific things about E and D and it hurts them because they love E &D and they know the people saying these things care about the victims so they want to hurt them where it hurts by trashing the people they care about .

I know that none of the above excuses it but I do think thats a lot of why trashing the victims happens.I think it has become common for non Columbiners to automatically assume negative things about Columbiners and their behavior when those assumptions are not always true or there is so much more behind it that people want to look at and I like to challenge that somewhat.

You genuinely seem like a very kind, caring, compassionate, and open minded person, DarkofNight. I really just want to let you know that.

I can see a lot of what you are saying coming from people who feel lost and alienated. Personally, I am not putting people down for seeing the humanity in Dylan and Eric and relating to them in all kinds of different ways. I'm sure you can see that by now.

The things that some of these people do, though, are very, very hypocritical. It defeats their whole alleged purpose, and they're actually acting identically to the people they are so hurt and offended by. When someone attacks them just because they say that Eric and Dylan were humans and were clearly victims, too, I very much understand how tiring it probably is, and how they feel the need to explain their point of view. But when some of them keep on attacking others who point out that some of their behavior is out of line, the way they attack and overall act is without a doubt bullying, also.

Like I said, they defeat the whole supposed purpose of their crusade acting like that. Now, every single person who empathizes with Eric and Dylan should not be categorized as acting like that, or thinking like that, but the ones who do really put out a bad vibe to other people who actually feel for all fifteen.

The fact that the actual victims may have not even been guilty, and it may not mean much to some of them further proves the point I'm making. They're behaving just as callously and ridiculously as the people who venomously hate and treat Eric and Dylan like soulless sub-humanoids. They REALLY are no better than them when they act like that. I don't say this expecting to change them, but the point is that they're no better.

I've known people, (who have also been accused of being "fans" and endlessly harassed by narrow minded people who think Eric and Dylan weren't human) have to attempt to get the authorities involved with these other "fans/columbiners" who would NOT stop stalking them and harassing them because they said they empathized and felt compassionate toward all 15 who passed on. The people who act like that are bullies and hypocrites. And it is not fair that everyone who has an open enough mind and heart to see the humanity in everyone gets lumped in with them.

I sincerely hope you know this is not directed toward you, and I hope you can tell through the things I've written that I feel this applies to ANYONE who harasses, threatens, bullies, and slanders someone who feels or thinks differently than they do. As I've said, I've been harassed, attacked, bullied, and slandered, too. ALL of my life, pretty much, it still goes on where I work (and within my family, as I've said). And I'm not going to go and harass and bully other innocent people because I've been ostracized pretty much all of my life for being an exceedingly eccentric individualist.

I know it has happened to you, and it disgusts me that it has. It sincerely seems like you're not like these other people who you are describing, though. You're much more respectful and open minded. I'm not wishing them ill, but there are some people, particularly on certain sites, who are just as bad with their relentless bullying as those they claim to be crusading against. I'm not talking about them defending themselves against people who are attacking them. I'm talking about THEM attacking others who don't feel the same way they do but aren't even attacking them, being disrespectful to the dead (including Dylan and Eric, whether they realize it or not), and stalking others to the point of them needing help from the authorities. There's no point to what they're doing. There is no reason for it.

I sincerely do hope you understand what I mean. I also understand the points you're making. And I very much look forward to discussing things with you here on this board. I really enjoy it.

Thanks. I try. I get the same impression of you also. I'm just giving my opinion on why people take the actions they do after seeing it for a long time but in the end I suppose you'd have to ask them why themselves to get a totally accurate answer. I don't know why feeling sorry towards all people who died that day is seen as such a bad thing on both sides.To me, it seems like that is the ideal position.Of course, peoples sympathies will fall heavier on one side or the other.Most peoples will fall towards the victims more.Mine falls more towards E &D but that is because of my experiences and the fact that I can relate to them so why and understand why they did what they did far outside of "crazy" and "evil". In certain places, people seemed to be on a personal crusade to try to root out every E & D fan on the internet.Which is a huge waste of time and effort because E &D fans have been around as long as I can remember and I got into this when I was very young. There will always be bullied people, abused people, people who are ostracized and as long as such people exist E &D will always have a following no matter how distressing many people find that fact.I don't blame people for wanting to defend the victims.However, as in most things there are two sides and people go too far.I'll never forget the run in with one of Tom Mausers supporters on YT that I had once.This was a woman who claimed to have lost her daughters father in 9 /11 and to have been very traumatized by this.I didn't say anything about the victims and this woman came after me saying things like"The world hates you freaks.I told my therapist about you people and even he was shocked and said that you are the craziest people he has ever heard of and he can't believe such people actually exist and you should all be locked up." and on and on. It's true that people did get on there and say awful things about his son but I've also seen his supporters go after fans that weren't doing anything with a vengeance just because they were fans.Another thing that really bothers me is how the deaths at Columbine are actually celebrated .The victims get this too but mostly E &D.The deaths make people happy. Death should not be celebrated.

Another thing you said that I found refreshing is that just because you graduate and get away from your bullies it doesn't mean that things will get better. For some reason, people really believe that.It probably does for some but not for everybody .If you are socially awkward or not good at fitting in , people will probably always treat you badly.Most of the time there is nothing you can do to change that.If you try, people will usually see that you are trying to put on an act and will be disgusted by it. One of the things that made me angriest on the old board is when Crs 1988 once said that E &D deserved what harassment they got because they were looking for attention and made themselves stand out and they got what they were looking for.He also went on to say that if you can't make yourself fit in, you bring bullying on yourself.I remember the quote pretty much exactly because I was so disgusted by it.

tfsa47090 wrote:

DarkofNight wrote:

Just a few quick thoughts since I'm a little short on time.From my observations I think that some fans bash the victims for a few different reasons. Many of the fans tend to be people whom have spent most of their lives being kicked around while people laughed in their faces for being kicked around.They are angry, hurt and bitter and in E &D have finally found people to believe in and relate to. They've found people who would probably understand them which is not something that's easy to find.
The thought that somebody was willing to sacrifice everything to strike back at a school where they were degraded somehow gives them strength even though most fans would never try to do the same thing themselves. What E &D mean to us is hard to put into words.What they mean to us is tremendous.I've heard people say things like "If it weren't for E &D I couldn't have made it through HS." or "E&D stopped me from committing suicide" or "E &D gave me the strength to get out of bed every day and make it to school."

All the victims are worshiped in death and were portrayed as being perfect in life and several actually were among the elites of the school like Lauren, Rachel, Cory, Matt .Others like Cassie were pretty popular if not elite.I think the fans see in the victims the same kind of people who torment them every day at their own schools or work or whatever.That the actual victims may not have been guilty of much of that kid of behavior is not the issue.To them, they likely were and even if they weren't, its what they symbolize.

I think the last reason they do is is that they see people saying horrific things about E and D and it hurts them because they love E &D and they know the people saying these things care about the victims so they want to hurt them where it hurts by trashing the people they care about .

I know that none of the above excuses it but I do think thats a lot of why trashing the victims happens.I think it has become common for non Columbiners to automatically assume negative things about Columbiners and their behavior when those assumptions are not always true or there is so much more behind it that people want to look at and I like to challenge that somewhat.

You genuinely seem like a very kind, caring, compassionate, and open minded person, DarkofNight. I really just want to let you know that.

I can see a lot of what you are saying coming from people who feel lost and alienated. Personally, I am not putting people down for seeing the humanity in Dylan and Eric and relating to them in all kinds of different ways. I'm sure you can see that by now.

The things that some of these people do, though, are very, very hypocritical. It defeats their whole alleged purpose, and they're actually acting identically to the people they are so hurt and offended by. When someone attacks them just because they say that Eric and Dylan were humans and were clearly victims, too, I very much understand how tiring it probably is, and how they feel the need to explain their point of view. But when some of them keep on attacking others who point out that some of their behavior is out of line, the way they attack and overall act is without a doubt bullying, also.

Like I said, they defeat the whole supposed purpose of their crusade acting like that. Now, every single person who empathizes with Eric and Dylan should not be categorized as acting like that, or thinking like that, but the ones who do really put out a bad vibe to other people who actually feel for all fifteen.

The fact that the actual victims may have not even been guilty, and it may not mean much to some of them further proves the point I'm making. They're behaving just as callously and ridiculously as the people who venomously hate and treat Eric and Dylan like soulless sub-humanoids. They REALLY are no better than them when they act like that. I don't say this expecting to change them, but the point is that they're no better.

I've known people, (who have also been accused of being "fans" and endlessly harassed by narrow minded people who think Eric and Dylan weren't human) have to attempt to get the authorities involved with these other "fans/columbiners" who would NOT stop stalking them and harassing them because they said they empathized and felt compassionate toward all 15 who passed on. The people who act like that are bullies and hypocrites. And it is not fair that everyone who has an open enough mind and heart to see the humanity in everyone gets lumped in with them.

I sincerely hope you know this is not directed toward you, and I hope you can tell through the things I've written that I feel this applies to ANYONE who harasses, threatens, bullies, and slanders someone who feels or thinks differently than they do. As I've said, I've been harassed, attacked, bullied, and slandered, too. ALL of my life, pretty much, it still goes on where I work (and within my family, as I've said). And I'm not going to go and harass and bully other innocent people because I've been ostracized pretty much all of my life for being an exceedingly eccentric individualist.

I know it has happened to you, and it disgusts me that it has. It sincerely seems like you're not like these other people who you are describing, though. You're much more respectful and open minded. I'm not wishing them ill, but there are some people, particularly on certain sites, who are just as bad with their relentless bullying as those they claim to be crusading against. I'm not talking about them defending themselves against people who are attacking them. I'm talking about THEM attacking others who don't feel the same way they do but aren't even attacking them, being disrespectful to the dead (including Dylan and Eric, whether they realize it or not), and stalking others to the point of them needing help from the authorities. There's no point to what they're doing. There is no reason for it.

I sincerely do hope you understand what I mean. I also understand the points you're making. And I very much look forward to discussing things with you here on this board. I really enjoy it.

tfsa47090 wrote:

The hypocrisy pertaining to saying things like that about Eric and Dylan: saying that they "know" everyone, and their families, and they themselves were better off because they committed suicide is just as judgmental, disrespectful and knee-jerk as the things that the obnoxious, disgusting victim bashers say. It's astonishing how blind these people are to their own behavior, and how quick they are to preach to everyone, when they behave identically to them. I can't tolerate EITHER of those types of people.

Then again, the victim-idolizers have the majority of society agreeing with them. Half the victim-bashers probably speak with more hostility than they honestly experience, to overcompensate for refusing to participate emotionally or otherwise in the hand-wringing candle-light vigil crap.

Quote :

Very curious that they were always screeching at pretty much everyone who posted there for sources, but a select few could relentlessly yap on about their half baked, narrow minded opinions that they "knew" that two people they never met were "irredeemable", and then run and attack anyone else who posted their opinions. And again, turn around and coo over how cute they thought Eric was in a certain photo or video, and then tear apart someone who said they thought he or Dylan were funny in one of their videos. Just mind boggling, really. I just want to reiterate that they never did this to me, personally, and I only started reading things there in the spring of last year. I repeatedly read that the board had been "wiped" a few times throughout the years, so I know I missed a lot, but I still saw everything I just mentioned while lurking and after I signed up, over and over again.

People who act like that should get hit in the head with a brick. Talking crap and saying damning pejorative dehumanizing things about Eric and Dylan, then turning around and getting googoo eyes because of their physical appearances and superficial things like that. Worst of all, they screech about what is "disrespectful to Eric and Dylan" as though they personally knew. Nobody truly knew all the inner workings of Eric or Dylan's minds. No one but each other, possibly only themselves. Which leads to...

DarkofNight wrote:

"One other thing I also cringe at, and that makes me sick, is all of the homoerotic fanfiction and homoerotic fanart about them that I see. Does anyone REALLY think Dylan and Eric would appreciate that? I honestly think it would infuriate, deeply offend, and hurt them beyond description, frankly. I just find the majority of it to be incredibly disrespectful to the two of them, personally. (And, no, I'm not homophobic. I am as far from homophobic as one can be. I have homosexuals in my family, and they are the few who actually treat everyone with respect. One of my best, dearest friends, and one of the most beautiful people I have ever known is a very open homosexual). I just don't think that Eric and Dylan would appreciate any of that after being called "fags" for a large portion of their short lives. The irony of all of this is that 99.999999% of it comes from people who call themselves their "fans". You'd think people who hated them would do that, but they rarely do."


I could not agree more.I've long felt this way and feel it is terribly offensive to them because of all the reasons you stated. If you try to tell certain fans this though, you'll get you head bitten off. Some of the fanfiction out there is revolting. I think E and D would be flattered by the"straight" fanfics about them but someone actually wrote a fanfic about DK and his DAD . Then there was another fanfic in which a girl had to um perform with an animal while DK watched to prove herself worthy of him.Such vile stuff.Ugh.

I do not think that slash fanfiction of Eric and Dylan is disrespectful. Slash tends to focus more on emotional and romantic elements than mindless screwing. Given that Eric and Dylan did already have a very intense platonic friendship, and what little slash fanfic I've seen centers on the emotional intimacy, the angst and the available information about who they were as people, I find it much less pejorative than the millionth author stand-in story, where an obnoxious tween girl falls in love with either Eric or Dylan and stops the massacre from happening with the purity of her holy glowing lip gloss. Thinking a girlfriend could have stopped them with the Power of Wuv is trivializing their sacrifice and disregarding the inner lives of the two. I may have said this already, but if I have I'm restating it.

Quote :

If you tell certain "fans" (this particular type who, in my view and experience, are just trying to be edgy and have something to fight with people about all day, honestly) anything that is not ass-kissing, "yes-man", and complimentary, they will lose their minds. They can not remotely cope with ANYTHING, let alone criticism, even constructive. When they are called out on ANYTHING, no matter how gentle and respectful the person or people may try to be when doing so, they will attack, harass, stalk and bully them for months, or more. They gang up on people. They THRIVE on it. They love when people start trouble, because they spend their lives doing nothing but starting trouble themselves.

I know a lot of them are REALLY young, but that excuse only goes so far. I was sort of hard to deal with as a teen, but I damn well never dreamed of being as disrespectful and spiteful as some of these people. I know some of them will definitely grow out of it, but I ASSURE you that very few will. Most of the people who behave like that will continue to behave the same way when they're in their thirties and older. I've seen it way too many times. Many may get much worse.

The ones that act like that are complete BULLIES themselves, too. Utter hypocrites, but just on a different "side" of the "argument", if that makes any sense.

The same could be said of Eric Harris. He went beyond verbally blasting people on the internet. He pulled pranks that could have easily turned lethal. The stuff these bitter little fangirls say? It's Barney-level compared to what Eric wrote about Brooks, threatened to do to Brooks, seemed deathly serious ABOUT doing to Brooks. The fanhags are nothing compared to their idol, on this front.

Eric did have an "i'm-always-right" complex going on, albeit a partially reactive one. Makes sense that his legacy would attract certain types of minds.

If only one could forge them into a true guerrilla army...

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Another thing they do, aside from the pathetic disrespectful homoerotic fanart and fanfic (and the other nauseating types of fanfic you mentioned) is INCESSANTLY post their suicide photo, and then whimper that it makes them "soooooo sad!!11!!111 ". But they'll post it 8000000000000000000 more times. Give me a fucking BREAK. THAT is also preposterously disrespectful. That, and the homoerotic fanart and fanfic is disrespectful not only to them, but to their families, and I also believe in many cases for the victims' families, too. Some of them have forgiven Dylan and Eric, and even if they haven't been able to do that yet, I still think it is highly offensive to them nonetheless.

I wish they would make up their minds about that damn photo. Personally, I'm unphased by it because I think death is transcendent and beautiful, and their suicide photo is strangely artful among suicide photos (they look like a painting of two catholic martyrs, seriously--gory and beatific and pale, ecstasy and agony, like crucifixes or Sebastians-with-arrows--curled toward one another, dead together, never to feel rejection or loneliness again.)

If it makes you sad, then stop posting it. If it doesn't make you sad, post away. Such is life.

And after everything else, I'd be surprised if the Harrises or Klebolds took offense to drawings of their sons hugging and kissing each other. You know, after all the other charming statements people made about Eric and Dylan, when their parents were grieving like everybody else.

Quote :

I think Eric and Dylan would be flattered by some aspects of the female attention they get, but very frankly, and I hope you understand what I mean here------I don't think they'd find too much of it that alluring. I believe that they'd see right through the fact that most of these people are completely groupie-ish. A great deal of them would never bat an eyelash at them if they knew them in real life, and very few would befriend them and defend them if they saw them getting harassed, despite what they say. I say this because these sorts that I am referencing are all narrow minded, unoriginal bullies themselves, even though they try to convince themselves otherwise.

And some people try to convince fans that they wouldn't think highly of Eric and Dylan in real life, based on assumptions about said fan. "Oh, you would probably think they were boring." How the hell do you know? I wish I'd had friends like them growing up. Yet, I've seen more non-fans try to convince fans that they wouldn't care than I have of fans trying to convince themselves that they would. There's less denial than, again, the assumption of denial where there is none.

Quote :

Please understand that I am not saying that everyone who claims they'd be kind to them wouldn't if they knew them, but a lot of what these other types blab on about is merely an attention whoring trend, and they only like the fact that it is controversial and pisses other people off. I also feel this way because both Dylan and Eric constantly made it clear that they were repulsed beyond recognition by phony, fake people; "zombies", and "followers". When Dylan said he knew they'd have followers, I truly do not believe that he meant people who all looked, talked, dressed, and thought alike, and all listened to the same music, watched the same movies, ate the same foods, and did the same things they did JUST because they did, or people who'd write horrible things like we've mentioned in regard to fanfic. I honestly think he meant people with unique mindsets, and strong personalities; true individualists who could see through all of the bullshit and take a fierce, sincere stand against it. Again, not a bunch of trendoids who all act like clones of one another.

Again, Eric and Dylan themselves are guilty of the same. And what's wrong with discovering new things via Eric and Dylan? Where do you draw the line between emulation and copying? These kids are not complete and utter clones. Do you think they only agree with Eric and/or Dylan's ideas because it sounds cool? Okay, maybe some do. But many more don't. Some people happen to see eye to eye with Eric or Dylan, or both, as a result of their own thoughts and experiences. Some might also be trying it on for size, and if it works they stick to it, and if it doesn't they refine their viewpoints.

Didn't Chris Morris grouse about Eric copying the trenchcoat look? Didn't people refer to Dylan as a follower? Didn't Dylan influence Eric's interests as much as Eric influenced Dylan's?

The fans aren't so bad, I think.

But about the OP--I find it amusing. Though the Dylan could be better.

How unbelievably tacky.

I don't quite understand how anyone can be a fan of Eric and Dylan. If the appeal is that they were bullied and ostracized, then why not idolize a bullied kid who didn't resort to committing a massacre? Or if the appeal is that they struck back, then why not come to the very obvious conclusion that didn't attack their actual tormentors?

sergeant hartman wrote:

How unbelievably tacky.

I don't understand how anyone can be a fan of Eric and Dylan. If the appeal is that they were bullied and ostracized, then why not idolize a bullied kid who didn't resort to committing a massacre? Or if the appeal is that they struck back, then why not come to the very obvious conclusion that didn't attack their actual tormentors?

It's possible to be fascinated and intrigued by E/D and that doesn't make them a fan. They actually do come off as likable and relatable though. I would never dress up as them but I don't consider it tacky either.

My second paragraph wasn't really about the two in the photograph. I don't know why these two dressed up as Eric and Dylan. Maybe they're fans of E+D. Maybe they're just interested in them. Maybe they did it just to be provocative and edgy. Don't know. Don't care. My response was really towards the fanboy/girl talk that's going on.

Hm... I've been considered a fan and I will be the first to admit that I know a lot more about Dylan and Eric than I do about their victims and I've made memorial videos for Dylan and Eric in the past, so with what I am about to say, I probably seem like a hypocrite. But, aren't we all hypocrites at one point or another? I'd never dress up like them and I think it is kind of an insult to the family members of the people they murdered to dress up like them.

I just think to myself, if I ever have a child and my child is murdered and then I saw people dressing up like their murderers and taking photos and being proud of that, I'd probably feel awful and really depressed. Although, if my child was ever murdered, I doubt I would go on living.

sergeant hartman wrote:

My second paragraph wasn't really about the two in the photograph. I don't know why these two dressed up as Eric and Dylan. Maybe they're fans of E+D. Maybe they're just interested in them. Maybe they did it just to be provocative and edgy. Don't know. Don't care. My response was really towards the fanboy/girl talk that's going on.

I do think part of the reason why there are so many fan girls and boys is because they can relate to Eric and Dylan, being bullied, depressed, feeling ostracized, etc. But there are tons of kids who go through that type of stuff everyday who don't shoot up their schools but E/D had the guts to do so and perhaps they wish they had the guts to do it as well. They were also really attractive which I think is another reason.

sergeant hartman wrote:

How unbelievably tacky.

I don't quite understand how anyone can be a fan of Eric and Dylan. If the appeal is that they were bullied and ostracized, then why not idolize a bullied kid who didn't resort to committing a massacre? Or if the appeal is that they struck back, then why not come to the very obvious conclusion that didn't attack their actual tormentors?

I see this as a huge part of the problem with some of these people who call themselves "fans". They, and the others on the complete opposite "side" of things are essentially incapable of holding two (or more) thoughts in their head(s) at the same time.

For some of these people it simply HAS to be that they committed this massacre for one sole reason; because these people in question can personally relate to that one sole reason (bullying/being ostracized) (For the "fans", because they've been through something like that, and for the people who "hate" them, because it is the easiest, neatest "reason" for them to understand). They can't seem to bring themselves to take into account that this became an all or nothing issue in Eric and Dylan's minds, and that they were going to pretty much kill anyone and everyone they could that day, due to a plethora of reasons that they had devolved into believing were justified. I can personally see understanding the initial isolation, self loathing, and frustration that being treated unfairly can arouse in a person, and what all of those thoughts and emotions led them to start thinking. Acting on it; literally planning it, and then going through with it is an entirely different story that SOME of these people refuse to properly acknowledge, because, from what I see at this time, most people STILL feel they have to take a "side". They seem to be incapable of feeling bad and realizing that they relate to some of the thoughts the two of them wrote about in their journals and other writings, while simultaneously TRULY seeing that what these two decided to carry out was entirely out of control, and most importantly because, like you said, they didn't directly attack those who had personally harassed them. The people who vitriolically despise them are no better, and are just as short sighted and thick headed. What they all seem to forget is: by the time this thing was solidified, in their minds, there were MANY "reasons" that went WAY beyond being bullied/excluded/harassed, and that these "reasons" went WAY beyond direct personal attacks from specific people. As I said, they are incapable of holding more than one thought in their head at the same time.

This word "fan" bothers me, also. Some people seem to have resigned themselves to the term, and don't really like it, they just use it because they've been called that so many times. I'm sure some of them behave in a way that indeed warrants the term, but many of the wrong people are labeled with it, and the ones who actually ARE "fans" never use it, and lose their gourds when someone calls them that. The term "columbiner" is truly just ironically ridiculous, in my opinion, primarily when it is used by some of these people on themselves. Some of them "worship" these two, and call themselves that, and don't realize for a millisecond that it's insulting their "heroes". They both (particularly Eric, when you read the things he wrote everywhere, including people's yearbooks), HATED that school and everything they believed it stood for, promoted, and created. As we all know (or should know if we study this subject), they wanted to DESTROY the school. They wanted as many people as possible IN THE SCHOOL to die, and they wanted the school to be demolished. That was the primary point to their plan. Bringing down the school; making it cease to exist. How is that "honoring" your supposed "heroes"? As disgusting as all of this is, it is like Nazis calling themselves "Jews". Hitler wanted to remove Jews from the face of the earth, so, why would you name yourself after the very thing your "hero" was trying to annihilate? Further testament to the cluelessness of some of them, really. I know this is going to offend some people, but, please, REALLY think about that.

(That reminds me... it really is hilariously foolish when some of them shriek about the "fucking flowers" in the "tag" on tumblr; when people post their garden photos of their columbine blooms. Errr, the school is named after the state flower of Colorado, which is obviously a columbine. The flower came first. Really embarrassing behavior.)

Jenn wrote:

Hm... I've been considered a fan and I will be the first to admit that I know a lot more about Dylan and Eric than I do about their victims and I've made memorial videos for Dylan and Eric in the past, so with what I am about to say, I probably seem like a hypocrite. But, aren't we all hypocrites at one point or another? I'd never dress up like them and I think it is kind of an insult to the family members of the people they murdered to dress up like them.

I just think to myself, if I ever have a child and my child is murdered and then I saw people dressing up like their murderers and taking photos and being proud of that, I'd probably feel awful and really depressed. Although, if my child was ever murdered, I doubt I would go on living.

Jenn, I didn't see everything that you've written publicly about this subject, and I've never seen your videos. However, and I don't say this because you own this board; I say it because it is what I see: you, yourself, CAN hold more than one thought in your head at the same time. From what I've observed, that seems to frustrate some of the people who are drawn to this subject because they're incapable of doing that. They either have to write it all off as evil and soulless so they don't "look" bad to others for having some sort of empathy for these two people who started off as all too human and hurt, or, they feel that they have to outright worship them, and agree with and make excuses for everything, yet flip flop about the fact that they know something was wrong with what they did. You have shown that you CAN see things in a multi-dimensional way with this, and I honestly think that is why you were getting attacked so often. Some of these narrow minded people want you on one side or another, because that is the only thing that they themselves are capable of doing, regarding this subject, and many others. (I know how this feels, believe me. Not about this subject, but a LARGE number of other subjects and issues).

It is just like democrats and republicans. I cannot begin to explain how stupid quite a few people are about that nonsense with those two stupid political parties, and how inherent it is to their existence that everyone they know subscribe to one or the other. If you don't (and I damn well don't), there is something "wrong" with you, and they get utterly infuriated with you for being able to see things on both sides that you both agree with and disagree with. They actually get more venomous when someone doesn't believe in either party, than they do with the people who subscribe to the party that opposes theirs. It is so incredibly asinine. People do this with spirituality, as well. If you beleive in God, you are a part of a religion to most people, and that is that. Even though many people (especially in this day and age) DO NOT belong to or believe in religion, but DO believe in God. It just enrages them. They HAVE to put EVERYTHING/EVERYONE in a labeled box, otherwise, they don't know how to handle it/them. It reminds me of many people with the subject of columbine on both "sides". WHY does there ALWAYS have to be a "side" to EVERYTHING? There are SOME things that ARE black and white, but there are MANY that are not. And, yes, there are people with no personality/character/backbone that are on "both sides of the fence" about things that ARE black and white because they want to please everyone, BUT, there are many things that do not have a "side"; they are incredibly "gray", and lots of people STILL demand that everyone must "pick a side". When you don't, they very unfairly and erroneously pick a "side" for you. That's why I think some of them stupidly label you a "fan"; they can't deal with the fact that you see many parts of this as gray, and not black or white. Personally, I find it incredibly sickening that they can't think or deal with things any other way.

Yes, I certainly believe that everyone is hypocritical at one point or another. Making the effort to try not to be, and recognizing that one is being hypocritical is the difference. Many people do not care that they're being hypocritical themselves, they refuse to acknowledge it or try to change it, yet they love shouting the phrase "hypocrite" at anyone else they can.

Being able to see two or more sides of something is not necessarily hypocrisy, though. In many, MANY cases it is the furthest thing from hypocrisy. I don't see anything that you've said in this post as hypocritical at all. It is seeing more than one side to something, that in fact, has many intricate sides.

I didn't discuss my personal opinion of the photo in anything I've posted in this thread, but I actually feel just like you have described, Jenn. I didn't discuss my personal feelings about it because I was initially addressing the point that even people who don't like it, think it's stupid, and so on, are also exercising freedom of speech and expression. My personal opinion is that it is not respectful or appropriate, either.

It's your opinion that it's tacky. As is obvious, not every single person in the world agrees. It's ok by me that you don't understand.In my belief, its not meant for you to understand.You'll never understand in a million years.And that's also alright with me.I don't really need people to.But nobody will ever have the power to change my mind either.

sergeant hartman wrote:

How unbelievably tacky.

I don't quite understand how anyone can be a fan of Eric and Dylan. If the appeal is that they were bullied and ostracized, then why not idolize a bullied kid who didn't resort to committing a massacre? Or if the appeal is that they struck back, then why not come to the very obvious conclusion that didn't attack their actual tormentors?

I like the Columbiner name because to me it symbolizes a sense of identity and community and a sense of pride in our stance on this. Some people hate it and wish it hadn't become so common but I have no problem with it and to me,its as good of a name for this group of people who can be called fans as any. Others mileage will vary.

An argument could be made that as long as people don't dress like E &D in a place where they deliberately know where family members would be thats all the respect they owe them in that regard.I respect and sympathize with the victims families but I don't think I can agree that someone hundreds or even thousands of miles away should not express themselves in something that is important to them because the victims families would be offended.Again it goes back to freedom of speech and freedom of expression.And everyone having to decide what is appropriate for themselves. Some might feel that being expected to sacrifice something very important to them for the sake of strangers they will probably not ever be around might be asking too much.
Some might refrain out of respect and express their feelings for E &D in other ways.I understand why the families would be upset at people doing that .However, I think as with many things there is another side of the coin and that view is what I'm presenting here .

DarkofNight wrote:

An argument could be made that as long as people don't dress like E &D in a place where they deliberately know where family members would be thats all the respect they owe them in that regard.I respect and sympathize with the victims families but I don't think I can agree that someone hundreds or even thousands of miles away should not express themselves in something that is important to them because the victims families would be offended.Again it goes back to freedom of speech and freedom of expression.And everyone having to decide what is appropriate for themselves. Some might feel that being expected to sacrifice something very important to them for the sake of strangers they will probably not ever be around might be asking too much.
Some might refrain out of respect and express their feelings for E &D in other ways.I understand why the families would be upset at people doing that .However, I think as with many things there is another side of the coin and that view is what I'm presenting here .

I'm just curious as to how dressing up like Dylan and Eric, two murderers is 'important'? How could that EVER be important? And also, does it really matter how far away these people are from the victims families? Everything ends up on the internet anyways. The two guys in this photo could live in Europe for all we know. But yet, the victims families, in Colorado, would still see it, now wouldn't they?

It's one thing to sympathize with Dylan and Eric because you went through similar things that they went through, or you feel bad for them because of what they went through. But why this? Why dress up as them? I'm sitting here thinking about this and I honestly cannot think of one 'important' reason to dress up as a murderer and be proud of that and show that off.

What if it was your family member who was murdered, or your child and you saw pictures all over the internet of people dressing up like them and bragging about that, saying it is important to do so. How would you feel?

Yes, yes, I know I will probably get a response saying it is 'freedom of speech' or 'freedom of expression' but the response I am looking for is, how could dressing up like them EVER be important?

tfsa47090 wrote:

Jenn wrote:

Hm... I've been considered a fan and I will be the first to admit that I know a lot more about Dylan and Eric than I do about their victims and I've made memorial videos for Dylan and Eric in the past, so with what I am about to say, I probably seem like a hypocrite. But, aren't we all hypocrites at one point or another? I'd never dress up like them and I think it is kind of an insult to the family members of the people they murdered to dress up like them.

I just think to myself, if I ever have a child and my child is murdered and then I saw people dressing up like their murderers and taking photos and being proud of that, I'd probably feel awful and really depressed. Although, if my child was ever murdered, I doubt I would go on living.

Jenn, I didn't see everything that you've written publicly about this subject, and I've never seen your videos. However, and I don't say this because you own this board; I say it because it is what I see: you, yourself, CAN hold more than one thought in your head at the same time. From what I've observed, that seems to frustrate some of the people who are drawn to this subject because they're incapable of doing that. They either have to write it all off as evil and soulless so they don't "look" bad to others for having some sort of empathy for these two people who started off as all too human and hurt, or, they feel that they have to outright worship them, and agree with and make excuses for everything, yet flip flop about the fact that they know something was wrong with what they did. You have shown that you CAN see things in a multi-dimensional way with this, and I honestly think that is why you were getting attacked so often. Some of these narrow minded people want you on one side or another, because that is the only thing that they themselves are capable of doing, regarding this subject, and many others. (I know how this feels, believe me. Not about this subject, but a LARGE number of other subjects and issues).

It is just like democrats and republicans. I cannot begin to explain how stupid quite a few people are about that nonsense with those two stupid political parties, and how inherent it is to their existence that everyone they know subscribe to one or the other. If you don't (and I damn well don't), there is something "wrong" with you, and they get utterly infuriated with you for being able to see things on both sides that you both agree with and disagree with. They actually get more venomous when someone doesn't believe in either party, than they do with the people who subscribe to the party that opposes theirs. It is so incredibly asinine. People do this with spirituality, as well. If you beleive in God, you are a part of a religion to most people, and that is that. Even though many people (especially in this day and age) DO NOT belong to or believe in religion, but DO believe in God. It just enrages them. They HAVE to put EVERYTHING/EVERYONE in a labeled box, otherwise, they don't know how to handle it/them. It reminds me of many people with the subject of columbine on both "sides". WHY does there ALWAYS have to be a "side" to EVERYTHING? There are SOME things that ARE black and white, but there are MANY that are not. And, yes, there are people with no personality/character/backbone that are on "both sides of the fence" about things that ARE black and white because they want to please everyone, BUT, there are many things that do not have a "side"; they are incredibly "gray", and lots of people STILL demand that everyone must "pick a side". When you don't, they very unfairly and erroneously pick a "side" for you. That's why I think some of them stupidly label you a "fan"; they can't deal with the fact that you see many parts of this as gray, and not black or white. Personally, I find it incredibly sickening that they can't think or deal with things any other way.

Yes, I certainly believe that everyone is hypocritical at one point or another. Making the effort to try not to be, and recognizing that one is being hypocritical is the difference. Many people do not care that they're being hypocritical themselves, they refuse to acknowledge it or try to change it, yet they love shouting the phrase "hypocrite" at anyone else they can.

Being able to see two or more sides of something is not necessarily hypocrisy, though. In many, MANY cases it is the furthest thing from hypocrisy. I don't see anything that you've said in this post as hypocritical at all. It is seeing more than one side to something, that in fact, has many intricate sides.

I didn't discuss my personal opinion of the photo in anything I've posted in this thread, but I actually feel just like you have described, Jenn. I didn't discuss my personal feelings about it because I was initially addressing the point that even people who don't like it, think it's stupid, and so on, are also exercising freedom of speech and expression. My personal opinion is that it is not respectful or appropriate, either.

On the old board, I was pretty much considered one of the biggest fans there and fans were not really welcomed on that forum at all. If there were fans, they were closet fans. Not many people admitted to it because they would probably get abused for it. I know I did. I was told to 'Eric Harris' myself on more than one occasion. I spent most of my time there defending Dylan and Eric, getting made fun for it and then retaliating and ended up getting into a lot of arguments with several different members. Most of the forum, with the exception of Ivan and a few other people, thought I was a joke. They made fun of my videos and my poems. I removed all of them. I still have them, but I don't post them publicly anymore.

I'm far from one dimensional. Sometimes I think that I think about things too much and worry about things too much too. I never felt Dylan and Eric were the only victims. I pretty much always said that I was a 15 victims supporter. I still feel that way. I feel Dylan and Eric were victims too, but they were not the only victims as many of the fans believe, nor were they these innocent kids who were just picked on. They did their share of bullying as well. They even admitted to it. I honestly do not believe that the only reason they did this was because they were bullied and picked on. I believe mental illness played a big part, in both boys.

When I first got into Columbine, it was because of something personal I was going through and I ended up stumbling across Columbine while looking something up on the internet. I really don't want to get into my personal life, but I was hurting and I was angry and I felt that what I was going through was very similar to what one of the boys went through, so therefore, I took it personally whenever people talked badly about him. And like I said, I got the reputation of being a fan and was always in fights with people because I always felt like they were picking on me for it. Ultimately, Ivan and I ended up being banned and then later the whole thing with Desti and MnM happened and she closed the forum down, so I decided to make this one.

I feel a bit differently now. I think more about Dylan and Eric's victims and about their families but at the same time, I still feel Dylan and Eric were victims too and there were so many warnings signs that were over looked. And maybe if they weren't over looked then Dylan and Eric could have been helped and maybe the whole thing could have been prevented. I mean, Eric was basically saying he was having thoughts and dreams about murdering people. He wasn't taken seriously. It was just put in a file on a book shelf. It is like society failed him and in turn, failed his victims as well.

Anyways, I don't know if I am making any sense to you. Sometimes I ramble. But to me, Columbine is much more complex than just being a fan or not being a fan. There are so many different aspects, so many different things to look at and I really don't know why a lot of people look at it like, either you're on Dylan and Eric's side, or you're not and if you sympathize with Dylan and Eric, you're a fan, you know?

Jenn wrote:

tfsa47090 wrote:

Jenn wrote:

Hm... I've been considered a fan and I will be the first to admit that I know a lot more about Dylan and Eric than I do about their victims and I've made memorial videos for Dylan and Eric in the past, so with what I am about to say, I probably seem like a hypocrite. But, aren't we all hypocrites at one point or another? I'd never dress up like them and I think it is kind of an insult to the family members of the people they murdered to dress up like them.

I just think to myself, if I ever have a child and my child is murdered and then I saw people dressing up like their murderers and taking photos and being proud of that, I'd probably feel awful and really depressed. Although, if my child was ever murdered, I doubt I would go on living.

Jenn, I didn't see everything that you've written publicly about this subject, and I've never seen your videos. However, and I don't say this because you own this board; I say it because it is what I see: you, yourself, CAN hold more than one thought in your head at the same time. From what I've observed, that seems to frustrate some of the people who are drawn to this subject because they're incapable of doing that. They either have to write it all off as evil and soulless so they don't "look" bad to others for having some sort of empathy for these two people who started off as all too human and hurt, or, they feel that they have to outright worship them, and agree with and make excuses for everything, yet flip flop about the fact that they know something was wrong with what they did. You have shown that you CAN see things in a multi-dimensional way with this, and I honestly think that is why you were getting attacked so often. Some of these narrow minded people want you on one side or another, because that is the only thing that they themselves are capable of doing, regarding this subject, and many others. (I know how this feels, believe me. Not about this subject, but a LARGE number of other subjects and issues).

It is just like democrats and republicans. I cannot begin to explain how stupid quite a few people are about that nonsense with those two stupid political parties, and how inherent it is to their existence that everyone they know subscribe to one or the other. If you don't (and I damn well don't), there is something "wrong" with you, and they get utterly infuriated with you for being able to see things on both sides that you both agree with and disagree with. They actually get more venomous when someone doesn't believe in either party, than they do with the people who subscribe to the party that opposes theirs. It is so incredibly asinine. People do this with spirituality, as well. If you beleive in God, you are a part of a religion to most people, and that is that. Even though many people (especially in this day and age) DO NOT belong to or believe in religion, but DO believe in God. It just enrages them. They HAVE to put EVERYTHING/EVERYONE in a labeled box, otherwise, they don't know how to handle it/them. It reminds me of many people with the subject of columbine on both "sides". WHY does there ALWAYS have to be a "side" to EVERYTHING? There are SOME things that ARE black and white, but there are MANY that are not. And, yes, there are people with no personality/character/backbone that are on "both sides of the fence" about things that ARE black and white because they want to please everyone, BUT, there are many things that do not have a "side"; they are incredibly "gray", and lots of people STILL demand that everyone must "pick a side". When you don't, they very unfairly and erroneously pick a "side" for you. That's why I think some of them stupidly label you a "fan"; they can't deal with the fact that you see many parts of this as gray, and not black or white. Personally, I find it incredibly sickening that they can't think or deal with things any other way.

Yes, I certainly believe that everyone is hypocritical at one point or another. Making the effort to try not to be, and recognizing that one is being hypocritical is the difference. Many people do not care that they're being hypocritical themselves, they refuse to acknowledge it or try to change it, yet they love shouting the phrase "hypocrite" at anyone else they can.

Being able to see two or more sides of something is not necessarily hypocrisy, though. In many, MANY cases it is the furthest thing from hypocrisy. I don't see anything that you've said in this post as hypocritical at all. It is seeing more than one side to something, that in fact, has many intricate sides.

I didn't discuss my personal opinion of the photo in anything I've posted in this thread, but I actually feel just like you have described, Jenn. I didn't discuss my personal feelings about it because I was initially addressing the point that even people who don't like it, think it's stupid, and so on, are also exercising freedom of speech and expression. My personal opinion is that it is not respectful or appropriate, either.

On the old board, I was pretty much considered one of the biggest fans there and fans were not really welcomed on that forum at all. If there were fans, they were closet fans. Not many people admitted to it because they would probably get abused for it. I know I did. I was told to 'Eric Harris' myself on more than one occasion. I spent most of my time there defending Dylan and Eric, getting made fun for it and then retaliating and ended up getting into a lot of arguments with several different members. Most of the forum, with the exception of Ivan and a few other people, thought I was a joke. They made fun of my videos and my poems. I removed all of them. I still have them, but I don't post them publicly anymore.

I'm far from one dimensional. Sometimes I think that I think about things too much and worry about things too much too. I never felt Dylan and Eric were the only victims. I pretty much always said that I was a 15 victims supporter. I still feel that way. I feel Dylan and Eric were victims too, but they were not the only victims as many of the fans believe, nor were they these innocent kids who were just picked on. They did their share of bullying as well. They even admitted to it. I honestly do not believe that the only reason they did this was because they were bullied and picked on. I believe mental illness played a big part, in both boys.

When I first got into Columbine, it was because of something personal I was going through and I ended up stumbling across Columbine while looking something up on the internet. I really don't want to get into my personal life, but I was hurting and I was angry and I felt that what I was going through was very similar to what one of the boys went through, so therefore, I took it personally whenever people talked badly about him. And like I said, I got the reputation of being a fan and was always in fights with people because I always felt like they were picking on me for it. Ultimately, Ivan and I ended up being banned and then later the whole thing with Desti and MnM happened and she closed the forum down, so I decided to make this one.

I feel a bit differently now. I think more about Dylan and Eric's victims and about their families but at the same time, I still feel Dylan and Eric were victims too and there were so many warnings signs that were over looked. And maybe if they weren't over looked then Dylan and Eric could have been helped and maybe the whole thing could have been prevented. I mean, Eric was basically saying he was having thoughts and dreams about murdering people. He wasn't taken seriously. It was just put in a file on a book shelf. It is like society failed him and in turn, failed his victims as well.

Anyways, I don't know if I am making any sense to you. Sometimes I ramble. But to me, Columbine is much more complex than just being a fan or not being a fan. There are so many different aspects, so many different things to look at and I really don't know why a lot of people look at it like, either you're on Dylan and Eric's side, or you're not and if you sympathize with Dylan and Eric, you're a fan, you know?

The fact that these people, especially certain ones, called you that proves they were closet fans themselves, trying to take their mind off of it, and direct attention off of them and the way they were really thinking, but trying to hide. Not all of them, necessarily, but I KNOW what I saw while lurking before the changeover. I saw some photos that had been posted there, and let me tell you, the audacity of some of those people talking about others being "fangirls" is mind boggling, when those pictures LITERALLY "spoke" a THOUSAND words about their "feelings", most notably for one out of the two of them.

I don't blame you for keeping things private now. While I think it's ridiculous that you were harassed and teased for these things you're saying you wrote and shared, it is probably best for your own sake and sanity to keep them private. I've learned the hard way regarding things like that. I don't mean with columbine related writings, but just anything like that in general. It's a shame that you can't share it, especially with people who claim to be so open minded, but it's not worth the hassle, usually.

I DEFINITELY feel mental illness was an issue with both of them, as well, and I don't know how far you've researched the medications Eric was on, but those things are HIDEOUS. Absolutely NOTORIOUS for making people lose any semblance of reality. It was a horrid mix of many tragic, and very easily remedied things, in my opinion.

I entirely agree with you about this. It is astounding how many signs were ignored; how apathetic, indifferent, and clueless so many people were around them, especially Eric. His constant talk of death and murder absolutely was a desperate scream for help, in my opinion, even if he didn't realize that he was reaching out for help by saying what he was. He did say he was suicidal, too. He didn't write the word suicidal, and he didn't check it off on the sheet he had to fill out and check things off on. He DID, however, circle the option "more than twice" on the portion of his intake form that had him select different "levels" of things he did or didn't experience or feel. The question was number 50, and it said "Have you had thoughts about not wanting to live (committing suicide)?", and the options available to circle were "no", "once", "twice" and "more than twice". Eric circled "more than twice". It is there. One of his parents WROTE that they believed he was suicidal, though. But, he DID indicate that he was suicidal, and homicidal. It is in either the 11k, or the 900 documents released in 2006, right along with the other one he had to write on and check things off on. I'm sorry I don't know which right now, I have them, but to scroll through them right now is impossible. I need to lay down before I go to work. But, it is there. If I can find it later on tonight, I'll post the exact page it's on in whichever document set it's in, but if someone else does before me, if they're interested, that'll be wonderful.

Yes, a lot could have been different, and I don't think that it's necessarily wishful thinking, either.

INITIALLY, I thought they were two bastards, plain and simple, no excuses. But that changed quite quickly as I delved deeper into reading things, even many years ago when there wasn't as much available as there is now. And I thought that on my own, I had no point of reference; no one else that I knew cared much about this subject back then (and I don't follow what other people say or think, anyway), and quickly changing my view and seeing them as deeply wounded and disturbed kids is something I came to of my own volition, as well.

I never thought of them as perfectly innocent people, because no one really is, with the exception of babies, really. It becomes mythology when people buy either of those "sides'" views as a full reality. It's like folklore. It's foolish. It's an excellent point that you make about them ADMITTING that they had bullied and disrespected people themselves, too. I often see a lot of them pretend that they didn't do that, or blatantly deny it.

It is indeed a much more complex subject than the idiocy of what "side" some people think you're supposed to be on, and that is why it is so disturbing for some people to see others who know nothing, and don't want to learn, touting themselves as "experts". The "it's their view, they can say and think what they want" rhetoric doesn't apply when it comes to this. It is a deeply complex subject on so many levels, and that is why there are so many people interested in reading about it, researching it, and talking about it. Why it has degenerated into this ridiculous argument with some people about what "side" they're on proves that many people have latched onto it, no matter which extreme they subscribe to, solely to pretty much nurture their own hate and misery. That is what I see with those sorts.

I often write lengthy things, too, so I personally don't think you're rambling, and you are making a LOT of sense to me.

When I say that Eric and Dylan were evil*, I don't mean to suggest that they were literally demons sent from hell or that I believe that they were motivated by evil and nothing else.

*Come to think of it, I don't think I've ever said this up until now.

I understand the I-can-relate thing anyone could say about E&D, I'm the first saying I can see myself in some of the stuff they wrote etc. but there's really no need to look/dress like them at a public meeting that's also totally unrelated, I agree with this

Jenn wrote:

I'd never dress up like them and I think it is kind of an insult to the family members of the people they murdered to dress up like them.

I just think to myself, if I ever have a child and my child is murdered and then I saw people dressing up like their murderers and taking photos and being proud of that, I'd probably feel awful and really depressed. Although, if my child was ever murdered, I doubt I would go on living.

It's important to me for my own reasons.One is that its a way for me its a way to connect with them, to feel closer with them, to have one more connection. This isn't just some hobby for me or casual interest. I got into this when I was very young and it has become an important part of me.It's become an important part of who I am.
If you understand that, then you do and if you don't then you don't. With all due respect , just because people don't or can't understand something doesn't mean that it isn't genuinely important to the person in question or to their life. It's hard to put into words what E &D mean to me but what they do mean to me is tremendous. I don't seem them as just two murderers.For me, thats only a small part of who they are overall.The fact thats all the world sees and cares about doesn't change that for me.


The victims families might see some of it .I would advise them not to go looking for such things because who knows what they might see and I doubt that many of them do .I guess that I might not like it if I was in that situation but I'd also realize that you can't control people and police their beliefs and emotions and how they might act on those if they aren't breaking the law.Brian R. tried to police fanboys and fangirls for a long time but I believe that he eventually gave up because its impossible to do. I'm sure that every family is aware that E &D have fans but I doubt its something they chose to dwell on much.

Lastly,I am a person that doesn't like being told what to think, believe or do and if I felt that doing something was ok , just so it broke no laws and was within my moral code, then I'm going to do it regardless of what people in general think.
That's just in my nature.


For all of you who think that doing this is so horrible
what about the people who dress up like Hitler or Saddam Hussein for Halloween? Isn't that a lot worse? People who dress like E &D are often coming from a place of conviction , while these other people want to look cool at a party.

Jenn wrote:

DarkofNight wrote:

An argument could be made that as long as people don't dress like E &D in a place where they deliberately know where family members would be thats all the respect they owe them in that regard.I respect and sympathize with the victims families but I don't think I can agree that someone hundreds or even thousands of miles away should not express themselves in something that is important to them because the victims families would be offended.Again it goes back to freedom of speech and freedom of expression.And everyone having to decide what is appropriate for themselves. Some might feel that being expected to sacrifice something very important to them for the sake of strangers they will probably not ever be around might be asking too much.
Some might refrain out of respect and express their feelings for E &D in other ways.I understand why the families would be upset at people doing that .However, I think as with many things there is another side of the coin and that view is what I'm presenting here .

I'm just curious as to how dressing up like Dylan and Eric, two murderers is 'important'? How could that EVER be important? And also, does it really matter how far away these people are from the victims families? Everything ends up on the internet anyways. The two guys in this photo could live in Europe for all we know. But yet, the victims families, in Colorado, would still see it, now wouldn't they?

It's one thing to sympathize with Dylan and Eric because you went through similar things that they went through, or you feel bad for them because of what they went through. But why this? Why dress up as them? I'm sitting here thinking about this and I honestly cannot think of one 'important' reason to dress up as a murderer and be proud of that and show that off.

What if it was your family member who was murdered, or your child and you saw pictures all over the internet of people dressing up like them and bragging about that, saying it is important to do so. How would you feel?

Yes, yes, I know I will probably get a response saying it is 'freedom of speech' or 'freedom of expression' but the response I am looking for is, how could dressing up like them EVER be important?

I realize that I might not be sympathetic enough to the victims and their families but I truly am even if I don't like or agree with some of the actions some families took.
I don't think anyone deserved to die that day including E &D .I just understand deeply why they did it.

DarkofNight wrote:

I realize that I might not be sympathetic enough to the victims and their families but I truly am even if I don't like or agree with some of the actions some families took.
I don't think anyone deserved to die that day including E &D .I just understand deeply why they did it.

Why did they do it?

You'll disagree but I believe that being bullied and ostracized on a large scale by most people around them is the root of it.I believe that people treated them like they weren't good enough to breathe the rarefied air in that school and community because they were different and didn't fit in.This went on for years.Believe me, I know just what that feels like. Their rage at people and how society operates sprouted from that like the branches on a tree. I know what that feels like too.
I believe that if they had not been treated that way, the shooting would never have happened . Despite the tragedy of what they did and despite that most people wish they had only killed themselves and been done with it,if they would have E and D would have been long forgotten about .I believe they would have even been laughed for doing it like that guy they were friendly with who killed his step dad and himself was by people at the school.Even though they are hated , they and their reasons for doing what they did are still remembered. So many bullied, ostracized kids commit suicide and are forgotten forever except by family and friends if they had any.I think besides their own personal sense of revenge they wanted to get their message and reasoning across in a way that would make an impact and be remembered and not be easy to forget.I am not saying the shooting was a good thing.It obviously wasn't.It was a huge tragedy.But E &D were victims first or it would not occurred.Hurt people hurt people. There is always more to discuss, so many layers but thats my beliefs as to why summed up as short as I can make it.

Jenn wrote:

DarkofNight wrote:

I realize that I might not be sympathetic enough to the victims and their families but I truly am even if I don't like or agree with some of the actions some families took.
I don't think anyone deserved to die that day including E &D .I just understand deeply why they did it.

Why did they do it?

DarkofNight wrote:

You'll disagree but I believe that being bullied and ostracized on a large scale by most people around them is the root of it.I believe that people treated them like they weren't good enough to breathe the rarefied air in that school and community because they were different and didn't fit in.This went on for years.Believe me, I know just what that feels like. Their rage at people and how society operates sprouted from that like the branches on a tree. I know what that feels like too.
I believe that if they had not been treated that way, the shooting would never have happened . Despite the tragedy of what they did and despite that most people wish they had only killed themselves and been done with it,if they would have E and D would have been long forgotten about .I believe they would have even been laughed for doing it like that guy they were friendly with who killed his step dad and himself was by people at the school.Even though they are hated , they and their reasons for doing what they did are still remembered. So many bullied, ostracized kids commit suicide and are forgotten forever except by family and friends if they had any.I think besides their own personal sense of revenge they wanted to get their message and reasoning across in a way that would make an impact and be remembered and not be easy to forget.I am not saying the shooting was a good thing.It obviously wasn't.It was a huge tragedy.But E &D were victims first or it would not occurred.Hurt people hurt people. There is always more to discuss, so many layers but thats my beliefs as to why summed up as short as I can make it.

If they didn't fit in, how come they had a lot of friends? And how come the fans always feel sorry for Dylan and Eric being bullied, but never feel sorry for the kids Dylan and Eric bullied? One in particular that Dylan told he would kill if he showed back up to school, or something along those lines? And many people witnessed Dylan hitting other students, girls even. What was their message? I mean, in your opinion? What was their message? They didn't kill anyone who bullied them. They just killed random kids. They wanted to kill everyone, their friends included. Like, if the whole school actually blew it, a lot of their friends would have been dead.

Let's take a look at three things.

1. Eric and Dylan themselves (if you somehow take away the massacre and the message)
2. The massacre itself.
3. The message itself.

Loving the massacre itself is just loathsome period. There's no way around it. Thankfully, it looks like not all E+D fans love the massacre itself.

Loving Eric and Dylan is fine (by me) in a "love the sinner, hate the sin" kind of way. I still don't understand why this makes one a "fan" of them since there are literally millions of other bullied kids around the world that experienced the same thing.

So it's not about the massacre. Thankfully. It doesn't appear to be about Eric and Dylan themselves (again - if it's just about Eric and Dylan then why not be a fan of any other bullied kid?). That leaves the message. Now, the message is a matter of debate. It's one of the reasons why we're here.

I'm going to quit dancing around and just type it: A fan can spin Eric and Dylan's message into something positive all they like. "They did it to send a message to bullies! They did it so that suicidal kids wouldn't kill themselves! They might have saved more lives than they took!" How fucking disgusting, reprehensible, and downright egotistical does a person have to be to say that his or her well-being is more important than the lives of 13 others?

So to sum it all up: If a fan loves the massacre, then his or her reasons for being a fan of Eric and Dylan are disgusting. If a fan loves the message, then his or her reasons are also disgusting no matter what spin they put it on. If a fan just loves Eric and Dylan and hates both the massacre and the message, then I still have to question why they aren't a fan of any other bullied kid.

Dude, you can write a book about how I'm wrong, how I'm disgusting and deluded , that how I came to my beliefs and feelings on this is wrong, that my entire value system is wrong and I'm going to change my mind ever. You are wasting your time.So many people have tried and it has no effect on me.Why is it that people think that a scolding from them is going to make people turn their backs on something thats been of vital importance to them since they were 12 years old? Isn't it pretty egotistical to think that you could or even should have that kind of power? Why should you anyway? Because you represent the majority opinion in society on this and you expect me to jump back into line and conform?

sergeant hartman wrote:

Let's take a look at three things.

1. Eric and Dylan themselves (if you somehow take away the massacre and the message)
2. The massacre itself.
3. The message itself.

Loving the massacre itself is just loathsome period. There's no way around it. Thankfully, it looks like not all E+D fans love the massacre itself.

Loving Eric and Dylan is fine (by me) in a "love the sinner, hate the sin" kind of way. I still don't understand why this makes one a "fan" of them since there are literally millions of other bullied kids around the world that experienced the same thing.

So it's not about the massacre. Thankfully. It doesn't appear to be about Eric and Dylan themselves (again - if it's just about Eric and Dylan then why not be a fan of any other bullied kid?). That leaves the message. Now, the message is a matter of debate. It's one of the reasons why we're here.

I'm going to quit dancing around and just type it: A fan can spin Eric and Dylan's message into something positive all they like. "They did it to send a message to bullies! They did it so that suicidal kids wouldn't kill themselves! They might have saved more lives than they took!" How fucking disgusting, reprehensible, and downright egotistical does a person have to be to say that his or her well-being is more important than the lives of 13 others?

So to sum it all up: If a fan loves the massacre, then his or her reasons for being a fan of Eric and Dylan are disgusting. If a fan loves the message, then his or her reasons are also disgusting no matter what spin they put it on. If a fan just loves Eric and Dylan and hates both the massacre and the message, then I still have to question why they aren't a fan of any other bullied kid.