2 guys dressed as E &D show up at English Sci-Fi convention recently

I don't see them as having that many friends, sorry. They were far, far below most of the victims in terms of status and popularity if you want an example.The proof of this is in Ralph Larkins book.I don't believe they bullied that many people. I think they did a small amount but they were far more abused than did any abusing.
I've seen wild statements that Adam Kyler made in the 11 k that makes me doubt everything he said.He claimed that DK and others once came to school with swastikas drawn on their face with black eyeliner.I don't believe that. Anybody else is free to but I do not. I think I've already answered these questions as fairly as I can. Those are my beliefs and I'm not changing them. I can't answer in any other way than I already have.

Jenn wrote:

DarkofNight wrote:

You'll disagree but I believe that being bullied and ostracized on a large scale by most people around them is the root of it.I believe that people treated them like they weren't good enough to breathe the rarefied air in that school and community because they were different and didn't fit in.This went on for years.Believe me, I know just what that feels like. Their rage at people and how society operates sprouted from that like the branches on a tree. I know what that feels like too.
I believe that if they had not been treated that way, the shooting would never have happened . Despite the tragedy of what they did and despite that most people wish they had only killed themselves and been done with it,if they would have E and D would have been long forgotten about .I believe they would have even been laughed for doing it like that guy they were friendly with who killed his step dad and himself was by people at the school.Even though they are hated , they and their reasons for doing what they did are still remembered. So many bullied, ostracized kids commit suicide and are forgotten forever except by family and friends if they had any.I think besides their own personal sense of revenge they wanted to get their message and reasoning across in a way that would make an impact and be remembered and not be easy to forget.I am not saying the shooting was a good thing.It obviously wasn't.It was a huge tragedy.But E &D were victims first or it would not occurred.Hurt people hurt people. There is always more to discuss, so many layers but thats my beliefs as to why summed up as short as I can make it.

If they didn't fit in, how come they had a lot of friends? And how come the fans always feel sorry for Dylan and Eric being bullied, but never feel sorry for the kids Dylan and Eric bullied? One in particular that Dylan told he would kill if he showed back up to school, or something along those lines? And many people witnessed Dylan hitting other students, girls even. What was their message? I mean, in your opinion? What was their message? They didn't kill anyone who bullied them. They just killed random kids. They wanted to kill everyone, their friends included. Like, if the whole school actually blew it, a lot of their friends would have been dead.

For the record, my best friend to this day is a fellow bully victim and she is one of the very few people I've ever known that I still keep in contact with. We went through some of this hell together and I'm a huge fan of hers.She is one of the few people who can or will understand me. So to say that I'm not a fan of other bullied people is not accurate. She also feels the same way that I do about E &D and has for a long time now.The fact that we are now over 21 years old has not changed any of that.
In some ways she goes even further with it than I do and says and believes things that people here would find very offensive.And unlike me won't tolerate people judging her for it.She refuses to engage with them ,just telling them to pretty much ______off .~Shrugs~

DarkofNight wrote:

I don't see them as having that many friends, sorry. They were far, far below most of the victims in terms of status and popularity if you want an example.The proof of this is in Ralph Larkins book.I don't believe they bullied that many people. I think they did a small amount but they were far more abused than did any abusing.
I've seen wild statements that Adam Kyler made in the 11 k that makes me doubt everything he said.He claimed that DK and others once came to school with swastikas drawn on their face with black eyeliner.I don't believe that. Anybody else is free to but I do not. I think I've already answered these questions as fairly as I can. Those are my beliefs and I'm not changing them. I can't answer in any other way than I already have.

I can think of at least 10 friends these 2 boys had right off the top of my head and let me tell you, that is a lot more than some people ever had in high school. They were ALWAYS with other kids, in their videos, at parties they talked about going to. While they may have been 'outcasts', I'd hardly say they didn't have that many friends.

It seems as though you are making excuses for Dylan and Eric. "There were far more abused than did any abusing", again, completely overlooking the FACT that Dylan and Eric bullied other kids. And you can say you don't believe it, but I am sure you are aware that both of them admitted to it.

For the record, I don't think you are disgusting or vile or any of that. I know I wasn't the one who said that, but I just wanted to let you know that I don't judge people by their stance on Columbine. I mean, I CAN understand why a lot of people sympathize with Dylan and Eric. I spent a lot of time being the very same way you are. Taking it personally when other people spoke their opinions about them and always thinking people were attacking me for what I would say and being treated that way all of the time just made me want to side with Dylan and Eric more. But, no matter how you look at it, Dylan and Eric destroyed and effected thousands of lives. They murdered innocent people. And people say they were trying to 'send a message', but I don't believe that at all. I don't think there was any message whatsoever. I think that they were just selfish and not only for what they did to their victims and their victims families but what they did to themselves and their own families and also that they wanted the attention. Aftermath attention is what I am referring to.

Anyway, this is just how I feel about it and like I said, you're free to feel whatever you want and don't think I am judging you for it or looking down on you for it or even trying to change your mind, as I know the only one who can change your mind is you.

We simply see things very differently and will just have to politely agree to disagree.

[quote="Jenn"][quote="DarkofNight"]
I don't see them as having that many friends, sorry. They were far, far below most of the victims in terms of status and popularity if you want an example.The proof of this is in Ralph Larkins book.I don't believe they bullied that many people. I think they did a small amount but they were far more abused than did any abusing.
I've seen wild statements that Adam Kyler made in the 11 k that makes me doubt everything he said.He claimed that DK and others once came to school with swastikas drawn on their face with black eyeliner.I don't believe that. Anybody else is free to but I do not. I think I've already answ

DarkofNight wrote:

Dude, you can write a book about how I'm wrong, how I'm disgusting and deluded. , that how I came to my beliefs and feelings on this is wrong, that my entire value system is wrong and I'm going to change my mind ever.

When did I say that I was trying to change your mind? I'm just laying out my opinions when it comes to E+D fans. Which I'm perfectly free to do.

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You are wasting your time.

I disagree since I wasn't trying to convince you that you're wrong. My reason for writing the above was simply to share my thoughts on E+D fans. Which I accomplished by virtue of it existing. Thus, it was time well spent.

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So many people have tried and it has no effect on me.Why is it that people think that a scolding from them is going to make people turn their backs on something thats been of vital importance to them since they were 12 years old? Isn't it pretty egotistical to think that you could or even should have that kind of power? Why should you anyway? Because you represent the majority opinion in society on this and you expect me to jump back into line and conform?

Again, at no point did I say that I was trying to convince you of anything.

You didn't say that precisely no, but most who are against us Columbiners DO try to change our minds often in a scolding type fashion so I made an educated guess that was your intent. I can accept that I was mistaken.You certainly are entitled to do that as I am entitled to express myself as we both have.I simply like to warn people in advance who might have the intent of trying to change my views on this that it will not work so there is no need to waste their time .

sergeant hartman wrote:

DarkofNight wrote:

Dude, you can write a book about how I'm wrong, how I'm disgusting and deluded. , that how I came to my beliefs and feelings on this is wrong, that my entire value system is wrong and I'm going to change my mind ever.

When did I say that I was trying to change your mind? I'm just laying out my opinions when it comes to E+D fans. Which I'm perfectly free to do.

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You are wasting your time.

I disagree since I wasn't trying to convince you that you're wrong. My reason for writing the above was simply to share my thoughts on E+D fans. Which I accomplished by virtue of it existing. Thus, it was time well spent.

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So many people have tried and it has no effect on me.Why is it that people think that a scolding from them is going to make people turn their backs on something thats been of vital importance to them since they were 12 years old? Isn't it pretty egotistical to think that you could or even should have that kind of power? Why should you anyway? Because you represent the majority opinion in society on this and you expect me to jump back into line and conform?

Again, at no point did I say that I was trying to convince you of anything.

DarkofNight wrote:

We simply see things very differently and will just have to politely agree to disagree.

Agreed.

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Loving Eric and Dylan is fine (by me) in a "love the sinner, hate the sin" kind of way.  I still don't understand why this makes one a "fan" of them since there are literally millions of other bullied kids around the world that experienced the same thing.

I doubt it's the "bullied" factor alone that makes E/D appealing to people. I always thought it was more because the music, movies, games, hobbies they enjoyed, and ways they thought about life are something certain people (of similar personality) can relate to.

I think some people wonder how "someone like them" could get to the point where they feel that a massacre is their best option.

I know those guys and they are really nice. They dress like that on a daily basis and have their own reasons for doing so which I won't drag onto a message board.

In England? I doubt anyone would recognize who they were.