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 Almost finished with A Mother's Reckoning.

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PostSubject: Almost finished with A Mother's Reckoning.    Almost finished with A Mother's Reckoning.  Icon_minitimeTue Aug 29, 2017 4:58 am

I'm listening to the audio book read by Sue Klebold. Has anyone listened to her version? I was walking to yoga yesterday while listening to the chapter on Dylan's funeral and was in tears. I also read something on the board about how Eric may not have even had his body claimed and that punched me in the gut, which is just a thought nothing substantiated but I never thought about that. I took some notes too while listening. I have no way of proving this because it was 18 years ago but months after I did reach out to Sue. I don't remember how I got her number and she had the call block on her phone where you had to state the reason you are calling, she picked up and we talked for about 20 minutes. It was back when we kept hearing about what a loner he was and I also was writing a paper for pysch on the shootings (I was a freshman in college) while he did seem to have a stronger group of friends then me I felt compelled to send kindness to her too. I was hiding a lot of anger myself behind the school plays, dance classes etc. I had a bit of worry that I may have been lumped in with the people who send her messages about how in love they are with her son. I sincerely hope to this day she realized I was calling with empathy.

Some of my notes.. it feels like I'm starting a book club with discussions!

- Every time I hear something about Kathy, she is crying. I've always been disturbed by Eric's dads 911 call saying he thought Eric was involved. It never sat well with me. The book actually made my heart go out a bit more for Eric and his family. I feel like Dylan is being humanized in a way Eric isn't.

-Also not a discussion but I was like "flowered shirt, just say Dylan worked at Trader Joe's, everyone loves Trader Joe's!"

-She didn't mention (so far) the slapping at work, I don't know if that was ever proven that Dylan slapped his boss. Wouldn't he have been fired???

-They also both seemed like competitive perfectionists who had tempers.

-If the shootings never happened I really believe not only would Dylan have killed himself but Sue would have become a strong advocate for suicide prevention. We probably would have heard their names but for VERY different reasons.

-My heart aches for his dad so much, I think he lost not only his son but his best friend.. as cheesy as it sounds.

-Eric and Dylan bullying  or not being nice makes complete sense to me. I went to school in an environment a lot like Columbine. After a while if someone tried to be nice to me I would be very suspect of their motives. I was also a raging ass hole after years of dealing with so much crap

-I did get annoy when she said something to the affect of "we can't diagnose mental illness posthumously so we don't know what was wrong with Dylan BUT Eric was a psychopath"

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PostSubject: Re: Almost finished with A Mother's Reckoning.    Almost finished with A Mother's Reckoning.  Icon_minitimeTue Aug 29, 2017 2:31 pm

I liked Sue's book. I know some were not impressed with it but I really liked it. She was biased toward Dylan but being a parent myself I cannot fault her for that.

Sue never does mention the slap incident. The only place it is mentioned is the 11k. No way of knowing if it really did happen.

I go back and forth myself if Dylan would have killed himself but I have posted that before so I will save the typing.

I recently rewatched Sue's tedtalk. If ever there has been a person on this Earth that has shown such great sorrow in their eyes, it is Sue. She has been thru a lot and is a stronger person because of it. I have a lot of respect for her even if she does have a bias toward her son.


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PostSubject: Re: Almost finished with A Mother's Reckoning.    Almost finished with A Mother's Reckoning.  Icon_minitimeTue Aug 29, 2017 5:08 pm

Did Sue believe that the ketchup-tampon incident happened?
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PostSubject: Re: Almost finished with A Mother's Reckoning.    Almost finished with A Mother's Reckoning.  Icon_minitimeTue Aug 29, 2017 5:34 pm

Lunkhead McGrath wrote:
Did Sue believe that the ketchup-tampon incident happened?  

From PG 137 in her book:
One day, Dylan came home, his shirt spotted with ketchup. He refused to tell me what had
happened, only that he’d had “the worst day of his life.” I pressed, but Dylan downplayed it,
and I let him. Kids have disagreements, I thought. Whatever it is, it’ll blow over—and if it
doesn’t, I’ll know. There has been reporting that the incident was more serious than I could
ever have imagined: a circle of boys taunting Dylan and Eric, shoving them, spraying them
with ketchup, and suggesting they were gay. That incident alone may not explain the deadly
kinship forged between the boys, but it is the kind of shared humiliation in which a bond is
formed.

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PostSubject: Re: Almost finished with A Mother's Reckoning.    Almost finished with A Mother's Reckoning.  Icon_minitimeMon Feb 04, 2019 7:15 pm

Screamingophelia wrote:
I'm listening to the audio book read by Sue Klebold. Has anyone listened to her version? I was walking to yoga yesterday while listening to the chapter on Dylan's funeral and was in tears. I also read something on the board about how Eric may not have even had his body claimed and that punched me in the gut, which is just a thought nothing substantiated but I never thought about that. I took some notes too while listening. I have no way of proving this because it was 18 years ago but months after I did reach out to Sue. I don't remember how I got her number and she had the call block on her phone where you had to state the reason you are calling, she picked up and we talked for about 20 minutes. It was back when we kept hearing about what a loner he was and I also was writing a paper for pysch on the shootings (I was a freshman in college) while he did seem to have a stronger group of friends then me I felt compelled to send kindness to her too. I was hiding a lot of anger myself behind the school plays, dance classes etc. I had a bit of worry that I may have been lumped in with the people who send her messages about how in love they are with her son. I sincerely hope to this day she realized I was calling with empathy.

Some of my notes.. it feels like I'm starting a book club with discussions!

- Every time I hear something about Kathy, she is crying. I've always been disturbed by Eric's dads 911 call saying he thought Eric was involved. It never sat well with me. The book actually made my heart go out a bit more for Eric and his family. I feel like Dylan is being humanized in a way Eric isn't.

-Also not a discussion but I was like "flowered shirt, just say Dylan worked at Trader Joe's, everyone loves Trader Joe's!"

-She didn't mention (so far) the slapping at work, I don't know if that was ever proven that Dylan slapped his boss. Wouldn't he have been fired???

-They also both seemed like competitive perfectionists who had tempers.

-If the shootings never happened I really believe not only would Dylan have killed himself but Sue would have become a strong advocate for suicide prevention. We probably would have heard their names but for VERY different reasons.

-My heart aches for his dad so much, I think he lost not only his son but his best friend.. as cheesy as it sounds.

-Eric and Dylan bullying  or not being nice makes complete sense to me. I went to school in an environment a lot like Columbine. After a while if someone tried to be nice to me I would be very suspect of their motives. I was also a raging ass hole after years of dealing with so much crap

-I did get annoy when she said something to the affect of "we can't diagnose mental illness posthumously so we don't know what was wrong with Dylan BUT Eric was a psychopath"

Late to the party but I agree with a lot of your points. I just finished the book. Some of the same things rubbed me the wrong way. It seems she just wanted her family to always appear happy and bury rather than deal with issues that arise. She herself instills the "unfairness" thinking in Dylan in regards to her reactions of punishments he received from authorities and the school. If someone got the combination to my locker I would want their ass suspended for 5 days too, I don't care if anything was taken or not! Not asking to read the disturbing paper Dylan wrote baffled me... she criticizes the school for being to involved previously then in this situation she expects them to handle it... what what whaaaaaat? The constant references to how much worse eric was and how Dylan was manipulated also got old. Dylan made a conscious decision to do this he may have not had the mass murder hard on that Eric did but he is still plenty to blame. He even mentions shooting up a school before Eric does.

I do feel bad for her and I do believe she truly believed she was doing what was right but so often I have seen families like this where appearances are more important that actually dealing with the problems. Byron having as much problems as he was with independance should have been more of a tip off.

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PostSubject: Re: Almost finished with A Mother's Reckoning.    Almost finished with A Mother's Reckoning.  Icon_minitimeMon Feb 04, 2019 8:05 pm

Kev7382 wrote:
Screamingophelia wrote:
I'm listening to the audio book read by Sue Klebold. Has anyone listened to her version? I was walking to yoga yesterday while listening to the chapter on Dylan's funeral and was in tears. I also read something on the board about how Eric may not have even had his body claimed and that punched me in the gut, which is just a thought nothing substantiated but I never thought about that. I took some notes too while listening. I have no way of proving this because it was 18 years ago but months after I did reach out to Sue. I don't remember how I got her number and she had the call block on her phone where you had to state the reason you are calling, she picked up and we talked for about 20 minutes. It was back when we kept hearing about what a loner he was and I also was writing a paper for pysch on the shootings (I was a freshman in college) while he did seem to have a stronger group of friends then me I felt compelled to send kindness to her too. I was hiding a lot of anger myself behind the school plays, dance classes etc. I had a bit of worry that I may have been lumped in with the people who send her messages about how in love they are with her son. I sincerely hope to this day she realized I was calling with empathy.

Some of my notes.. it feels like I'm starting a book club with discussions!

- Every time I hear something about Kathy, she is crying. I've always been disturbed by Eric's dads 911 call saying he thought Eric was involved. It never sat well with me. The book actually made my heart go out a bit more for Eric and his family. I feel like Dylan is being humanized in a way Eric isn't.

-Also not a discussion but I was like "flowered shirt, just say Dylan worked at Trader Joe's, everyone loves Trader Joe's!"

-She didn't mention (so far) the slapping at work, I don't know if that was ever proven that Dylan slapped his boss. Wouldn't he have been fired???

-They also both seemed like competitive perfectionists who had tempers.

-If the shootings never happened I really believe not only would Dylan have killed himself but Sue would have become a strong advocate for suicide prevention. We probably would have heard their names but for VERY different reasons.

-My heart aches for his dad so much, I think he lost not only his son but his best friend.. as cheesy as it sounds.

-Eric and Dylan bullying  or not being nice makes complete sense to me. I went to school in an environment a lot like Columbine. After a while if someone tried to be nice to me I would be very suspect of their motives. I was also a raging ass hole after years of dealing with so much crap

-I did get annoy when she said something to the affect of "we can't diagnose mental illness posthumously so we don't know what was wrong with Dylan BUT Eric was a psychopath"

Late to the party but I agree with a lot of your points.  I just finished the book.  Some of the same things rubbed me the wrong way.  It seems she just wanted her family to always appear happy and bury rather than deal with issues that arise.  She herself instills the "unfairness" thinking in Dylan in regards to her reactions of punishments he received from authorities and the school.  If someone got the combination to my locker I would want their ass suspended for 5 days too, I don't care if anything was taken or not!  Not asking to read the disturbing paper Dylan wrote baffled me... she criticizes the school for being to involved previously then in this situation she expects them to handle it... what what whaaaaaat?  The constant references to how much worse eric was and how Dylan was manipulated also got old.  Dylan made a conscious decision to do this he may have not had the mass murder hard on that Eric did but he is still plenty to blame.  He even mentions shooting up a school before Eric does.

I do feel bad for her and I do believe she truly believed she was doing what was right but so often I have seen families like this where appearances are more important that actually dealing with the problems.  Byron having as much problems as he was with independance should have been more of a tip off.


I wonder too sometimes why Byron only went to Columbine his sd our year.

You never hear about people knowing Byron at Columbine . Wouldn’t he and and Kevin graduated in the same year?

I think Sue is doing a lot of good now.

However I’d love to hear the other side... Tom and Byron. I’m not saying I think egregious things happened to Dylan in the home but I think there’s a lot more than we are told.

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PostSubject: Re: Almost finished with A Mother's Reckoning.    Almost finished with A Mother's Reckoning.  Icon_minitimeMon Feb 04, 2019 8:15 pm

I actually dont think anything egregious happened but I could definitely see why Dylan didn't open up more. Sue wanted to show everyone she had a perfect family. If you were him would you have been comfortable talking to her and completely shattering her view? I would've kept it bottled up too.

She seems like a narcissistic perfectionalist to be honest. Or did before the shootings at least
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PostSubject: Re: Almost finished with A Mother's Reckoning.    Almost finished with A Mother's Reckoning.  Icon_minitimeMon Feb 04, 2019 9:47 pm

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I completely agree about wanting to hear from Tom or Byron. Especially from Tom! I'd hate to say he knew a more "personal" side of Dylan, but everyone does say he and Dylan were very close and he considered Dylan his best friend. I think he'd be able to give a good account of Dylan's childhood and last years.

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PostSubject: Re: Almost finished with A Mother's Reckoning.    Almost finished with A Mother's Reckoning.  Icon_minitimeMon Feb 04, 2019 9:51 pm

whyno wrote:
screamingophelia

I completely agree about wanting to hear from Tom or Byron. Especially from Tom! I'd hate to say he knew a more "personal" side of Dylan, but everyone does say he and Dylan were very close and he considered Dylan his best friend. I think he'd be able to give a good account of Dylan's childhood and last years.

That would be very interesting. This is purely speculation but I wonder if Tom had more insight into Dylan's troubles but wanted to maintain the "perfect family" imagine that seemed so important to Sue so he chose not to rock the boat
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PostSubject: Re: Almost finished with A Mother's Reckoning.    Almost finished with A Mother's Reckoning.  Icon_minitimeMon Feb 04, 2019 10:34 pm

Kev7382 wrote:
whyno wrote:
screamingophelia

I completely agree about wanting to hear from Tom or Byron. Especially from Tom! I'd hate to say he knew a more "personal" side of Dylan, but everyone does say he and Dylan were very close and he considered Dylan his best friend. I think he'd be able to give a good account of Dylan's childhood and last years.

That would be very interesting.  This is purely speculation but I wonder if Tom had more insight into Dylan's troubles but wanted to maintain the "perfect family" imagine that seemed so important to Sue so he chose not to rock the boat

That’s a speculation that makes sense.


Also It makes you wonder why the Harrises have stayed so strong through? They’re still together

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PostSubject: Re: Almost finished with A Mother's Reckoning.    Almost finished with A Mother's Reckoning.  Icon_minitimeMon Feb 04, 2019 10:38 pm

Agree or disagree with their silence the Harris' took a united stance. Sue did what was best for Sue regadless of how it may impact other family members. Seems like it might he a pattern with her.
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PostSubject: Re: Almost finished with A Mother's Reckoning.    Almost finished with A Mother's Reckoning.  Icon_minitimeTue Feb 05, 2019 12:01 am

Kev7382 wrote:
Screamingophelia wrote:

-I did get annoy when she said something to the affect of "we can't diagnose mental illness posthumously so we don't know what was wrong with Dylan BUT Eric was a psychopath"

Late to the party but I agree with a lot of your points.  I just finished the book.  Some of the same things rubbed me the wrong way.  It seems she just wanted her family to always appear happy and bury rather than deal with issues that arise.  She herself instills the "unfairness" thinking in Dylan in regards to her reactions of punishments he received from authorities and the school.  If someone got the combination to my locker I would want their ass suspended for 5 days too, I don't care if anything was taken or not!  Not asking to read the disturbing paper Dylan wrote baffled me... she criticizes the school for being to involved previously then in this situation she expects them to handle it... what what whaaaaaat?  The constant references to how much worse eric was and how Dylan was manipulated also got old.  Dylan made a conscious decision to do this he may have not had the mass murder hard on that Eric did but he is still plenty to blame.  He even mentions shooting up a school before Eric does.

I do feel bad for her and I do believe she truly believed she was doing what was right but so often I have seen families like this where appearances are more important that actually dealing with the problems.  Byron having as much problems as he was with independance should have been more of a tip off.

So much yes to all of this. At some points Sue acts like she is demuring over blaming Eric but then slides in a comment that shows she totally believes he is more at fault.

I also agree that she had a tendency to downplay or excuse Dylan's behaviors. It's almost as though she presents the problem and then spends another two paragraphs explaining why it wasn't as much of a problem as it seemed to be.
I get it; it's a way for her to cope with what happened. But for all of the talk of trying to find answers and make some sense of things, it seems like she just cannot completely knock down that wall and accept the true horrors of what Dylan was capable of.

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PostSubject: Re: Almost finished with A Mother's Reckoning.    Almost finished with A Mother's Reckoning.  Icon_minitimeTue Feb 05, 2019 12:08 am

Exactly it's her constantly explaining things away and justifying brushing off Dylans actions. I totally get the need to cope qnd doing it privately is fine but calling this merely a tragedy and saying it was a suicide first and homicide second in a published book is a slap in the face to everyone else who was a victim in this.

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PostSubject: Re: Almost finished with A Mother's Reckoning.    Almost finished with A Mother's Reckoning.  Icon_minitimeTue Feb 05, 2019 12:22 am

I think a lot of people forget this was supposed to be MUCH worse if it had gone of as planned! Would sue have been able to write this book if the bombs had worked and hundreds of kids would have died?? I'm leaning towards no
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PostSubject: Re: Almost finished with A Mother's Reckoning.    Almost finished with A Mother's Reckoning.  Icon_minitimeTue Feb 05, 2019 2:37 pm

Kev7382 wrote:
Agree or disagree with their silence the Harris' took a united stance.  Sue did what was best for Sue regadless of how it may impact other family members.  Seems like it might he a pattern with her.

I have thought about this a lot. She says they divorced because they grieved differently. I think everyone grieves differently. In a marriage it should not be something that drives you apart. So either one or the other didn't get the support they needed or one or the other wanted to just move on. It seems like Sue was very detached from the event. Possible that she wanted Tom to get over it quicker than he could

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PostSubject: Re: Almost finished with A Mother's Reckoning.    Almost finished with A Mother's Reckoning.  Icon_minitimeTue Feb 05, 2019 2:53 pm

That's definitely possible Liz. I was totally just speculating of course. It could be hundreds of different things... it would be very interesting to hear from him. I wonder if at least some of the problem and that maybe he didnt share her viewpoint and was less defensive of Dylan? Tom was closest to him and it's often the person closest to someone who commits an act like this who feels the most betrayed. Maybe he even resents her need for portraying the imagine of a perfect family? Hopefully at some point he will he comfortable sharing but its understandable if he doesnt!

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PostSubject: Re: Almost finished with A Mother's Reckoning.    Almost finished with A Mother's Reckoning.  Icon_minitimeTue Feb 05, 2019 3:29 pm

Kev7382 wrote:
That's definitely possible Liz.  I was totally just speculating of course.  It could be hundreds of different things...  it would be very interesting to hear from him.  I wonder if at least some of the problem and that maybe he didnt share her viewpoint and was less defensive of Dylan?  Tom was closest to him and it's often the person closest to someone who commits an act like this who feels the most betrayed.  Maybe he even resents her need for portraying the imagine of a perfect family?  Hopefully at some point he will he comfortable sharing but its understandable if he doesnt!

Good point! Also look at the way that Zach spoke about Dylan and everything after compared to Devon and Nate. Zach was honestly probably closest to Dylan in some ways than anyone. Dylan still said Zach was his best friend. They talked the night before and Dylan did not warn him. Zack probably hates him and what he did (of course) because he loved Dylan a lot. And he felt betrayed.

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PostSubject: Re: Almost finished with A Mother's Reckoning.    Almost finished with A Mother's Reckoning.  Icon_minitimeWed Feb 06, 2019 3:31 am

Lizpuff wrote:
Kev7382 wrote:
Agree or disagree with their silence the Harris' took a united stance.  Sue did what was best for Sue regadless of how it may impact other family members.  Seems like it might he a pattern with her.

I have thought about this a lot.  She says they divorced because they grieved differently.  I think everyone grieves differently.  In a marriage it should not be something that drives you apart.  So either one or the other didn't get the support they needed or one or the other wanted to just move on.  It seems like Sue was very detached from the event.  Possible that she wanted Tom to get over it quicker than he could

I could have sworn Sue said money issues after the court hearings also lead to the divorce and not just grieving.
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PostSubject: Re: Almost finished with A Mother's Reckoning.    Almost finished with A Mother's Reckoning.  Icon_minitimeWed Feb 06, 2019 2:56 pm

hvernon wrote:
Lizpuff wrote:
Kev7382 wrote:
Agree or disagree with their silence the Harris' took a united stance.  Sue did what was best for Sue regadless of how it may impact other family members.  Seems like it might he a pattern with her.

I have thought about this a lot.  She says they divorced because they grieved differently.  I think everyone grieves differently.  In a marriage it should not be something that drives you apart.  So either one or the other didn't get the support they needed or one or the other wanted to just move on.  It seems like Sue was very detached from the event.  Possible that she wanted Tom to get over it quicker than he could

I could have sworn Sue said money issues after the court hearings also lead to the divorce and not just grieving.

There were a lot of things mentioned by her that tore them but she said that the way they dealt with it was the final blow.

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PostSubject: Re: Almost finished with A Mother's Reckoning.    Almost finished with A Mother's Reckoning.  Icon_minitimeThu Feb 07, 2019 6:37 am

Lizpuff wrote:
hvernon wrote:
Lizpuff wrote:
Kev7382 wrote:
Agree or disagree with their silence the Harris' took a united stance.  Sue did what was best for Sue regadless of how it may impact other family members.  Seems like it might he a pattern with her.

I have thought about this a lot.  She says they divorced because they grieved differently.  I think everyone grieves differently.  In a marriage it should not be something that drives you apart.  So either one or the other didn't get the support they needed or one or the other wanted to just move on.  It seems like Sue was very detached from the event.  Possible that she wanted Tom to get over it quicker than he could

I could have sworn Sue said money issues after the court hearings also lead to the divorce and not just grieving.

There were a lot of things mentioned by her that tore them but she said that the way they dealt with it was the final blow.

Ahh thank you.
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