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 Attraction to Columbine

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PostSubject: Attraction to Columbine   Attraction to Columbine Icon_minitimeTue Jul 02, 2013 4:08 am

A lot of people seem to be attracted to Columbine because of some darkness in their life (past or present). I'm curious... Does researching and discussing Columbine help? Has researching Columbine improved your understanding of yourself and others? Has discussing Columbine benefited your life?

I feel that Columbine is probably human nature at its most extreme. When I first heard about Columbine, I laughed about it with my school mates. What was your first reaction to the event? It may sound terrible, but I thought it was cool.
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PostSubject: Re: Attraction to Columbine   Attraction to Columbine Icon_minitimeTue Jul 02, 2013 5:11 am

I was really freaked out when researching Columbine at first. But now it makes me incredibly sad, angry and fascinated all at the same time. Before I became fascinated with Columbine I saw things like this in black and white but now I see it's a million shades of gray. I also try to be less judgmental, more accepting, more understanding, more compassionate and kinder than before.

I first heard about Columbine in middle school and didn't know much about it other than it was a school shooting. I didn't give it much thought and had no interest in researching it until Feb 2012. Since then I've become almost obsessed. There are times when I wish I never looked it up in the first place because it can definitely affect your mood in a negative way.
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PostSubject: Re: Attraction to Columbine   Attraction to Columbine Icon_minitimeTue Jul 02, 2013 5:25 am

StinkyOldGrapes wrote:
A lot of people seem to be attracted to Columbine because of some darkness in their life (past or present). I'm curious... Does researching and discussing Columbine help? Has researching Columbine improved your understanding of yourself and others? Has discussing Columbine benefited your life?

I feel that Columbine is probably human nature at its most extreme. When I first heard about Columbine, I laughed about it with my school mates. What was your first reaction to the event? It may sound terrible, but I thought it was cool.

I'm the same way, I feel horrible about it now but I thought it was awesome at the time. I don't think my 15-year-old self truly understood that real people died. Also at that time, bullying was being touted as the only motivation so it was kind of like getting a hit in against the bullies. Sad but true. And of course, the way the media portrayed everything - the TCM as a dangerous gang in Goth clothing, E&D as the pretty but deadly boys next door, etc., how else would kids react?

My obsession with Columbine comes and goes. I don't think there's been any benefit to me, but I also don't think there's really been any negative effects. If anything, maybe it's taught me to look beyond the obvious at things. The deeper I have dug, the more questions emerge.
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PostSubject: Re: Attraction to Columbine   Attraction to Columbine Icon_minitimeTue Jul 02, 2013 6:19 am

I think being "attracted" to a morbid subject such as Columbine is interesting in itself. Supposedly normal people talking about and discussing the murder of children.
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PostSubject: Re: Attraction to Columbine   Attraction to Columbine Icon_minitimeTue Jul 02, 2013 6:39 am

CatherineM813 wrote:
I also try to be less judgmental, more accepting, more understanding, more compassionate and kinder than before.

I feel that way too. I actually feel that Columbine has had a positive effect on my life, and I'm not really sure what that means. Researching it makes me focus on how short life is, and makes me wonder why we can't all just get along and do something useful together.

Wideawake wrote:
I'm the same way, I feel horrible about it now but I thought it was awesome at the time. I don't think my 15-year-old self truly understood that real people died.

Why do you think school shootings are so "cool"? I saw a person posting on a mental health forum (I think it was Yahoo Answers) that they have fantasies about shooting up their school and someone else posted something like "all talk, no show". It's almost like once someone mentions they're thinking about shooting up their school, people get disappointed in they don't go through with it. Why do you think that people get such a kick out of school shootings?

Ivan wrote:
I think being "attracted" to a morbid subject such as Columbine is interesting in itself. Supposedly normal people talking about and discussing the murder of children.

Well, I've never yet been accused of being "normal"!
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PostSubject: Re: Attraction to Columbine   Attraction to Columbine Icon_minitimeTue Jul 02, 2013 12:29 pm

StinkyOldGrapes wrote:
A lot of people seem to be attracted to Columbine because of some darkness in their life (past or present). I'm curious...

This is also something I have been curious about myself. Someone some time ago mentioned on a different forum that they felt the majority of people interested in Columbine had some kind of 'darkness' as you mentioned in their lives. At the time I was very defensive and thought firstly that wasn't true and secondly, no this experience in my life or that event in my life has nothing to do with my interest. But I feel like now it's hard not to relate moments of darkness in my life to my interest, at least on some level. For me I wouldn't say my interest began 100% because of some kind of event in my life but perhaps it has developed into a small part of it.
I've seem many people now and in the past feel like they can relate to a part of the Columbine story based upon their own life experiences. Whether it's life as a troubled teen, suicide, loss or some kind of parallel between themselves E/D or any of the victims, there can on occasion be some form of relationship between personal experience and an attraction to researching Columbine.

Ivan wrote:
I think being "attracted" to a morbid subject such as Columbine is interesting in itself. Supposedly normal people talking about and discussing the murder of children.

I agree.
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PostSubject: Re: Attraction to Columbine   Attraction to Columbine Icon_minitimeTue Jul 02, 2013 2:52 pm

I've always wondered that if the bombs DID go off, would people still be interested in Columbine as so much now? Obviously that was the intended plot, but if the bombs did actually go off, I don't think people would attach such an interest to the topic. There would obviously be no CCTV camera footage and the library incident would've never happened. Those are namely two things that really build up the aura of mystery and debate surrounding the topic.

So let's play that out. The bombs go off, survivors run out of the commons and E/D shoot them. Would that garner as much interest as what really did happen? Maybe the fact that so many people supposedly would die would. But what really did happen seems more interesting. The fact that it was planned for a period (unlike archetypal school shootings), the fact that they had to change the plan at the last minute due to the bomb's not going off, what ensued due to that fact... et cetera.

Well, hey, that's just my two cents on the matter. Smile 
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PostSubject: Re: Attraction to Columbine   Attraction to Columbine Icon_minitimeTue Jul 02, 2013 6:36 pm

Do you think it's also a bad boy factor why people are attracted to Eric and Dylan and Columbine. Girls do love bad boys and they tend to wish they could be there for people like them to help and possibly save them.
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PostSubject: Re: Attraction to Columbine   Attraction to Columbine Icon_minitimeTue Jul 02, 2013 7:01 pm

Possibly. There is a notion that people are attracted to them due to them appearing so "normal". Does that make every other mass murderer unnormal? I dunno. The reason why people are attracted to E/D, in my humblest of opinions, is that the Columbine massacre is so well promulgated thru information like the 11k, witness testimonies, etc. Also, there is a sense of mystery that culls people in (think of the Basement Tapes).... no other school shooting has so much information available.
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PostSubject: Re: Attraction to Columbine   Attraction to Columbine Icon_minitimeTue Jul 02, 2013 11:36 pm

StinkyOldGrapes wrote:
Why do you think school shootings are so "cool"? I saw a person posting on a mental health forum (I think it was Yahoo Answers) that they have fantasies about shooting up their school and someone else posted something like "all talk, no show". It's almost like once someone mentions they're thinking about shooting up their school, people get disappointed in they don't go through with it. Why do you think that people get such a kick out of school shootings?

I think there's a lot of reasons that school shootings are seen as "cool". Without going into a long-winded rant, here are some of the reasons in my opinion: the drama and infamy of it; the way kids/teens romanticize death; living in a society that glorifies violence; it's like a big fuck you to the world; shattering that illusion that adults have that kids are "safe" at school when anybody who properly remembers high school knows that's bullshit; power trip.

I'm sure there are more reasons, or more "valid" reasons, but these or some of the things I came up with. It doesn't hurt when the shooter(s) are good-looking - E&D, Kip Kinkel, TJ Lane. And as CatherineM813 said, girls do love bad boys.

JDM87 wrote:
The bombs go off, survivors run out of the commons and E/D shoot them. Would that garner as much interest as what really did happen? Maybe the fact that so many people supposedly would die would. But what really did happen seems more interesting. The fact that it was planned for a period (unlike archetypal school shootings), the fact that they had to change the plan at the last minute due to the bomb's not going off, what ensued due to that fact... et cetera.

Hmm, suppose this could go either way. After all, we've never had a big school bombing and most people don't even realize that Columbine was supposed to be a bombing, not a shooting spree. So that in itself would make it pretty interesting. Of course, part of what makes Columbine so fascinating, at least to me, is reading through the eyewitness accounts of what E/D said, how they acted, etc. There would be far less of that if the bombs had gone off. Interesting question though.
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PostSubject: Re: Attraction to Columbine   Attraction to Columbine Icon_minitimeWed Jul 03, 2013 4:55 am

queenfarooq wrote:
Someone some time ago mentioned on a different forum that they felt the majority of people interested in Columbine had some kind of 'darkness' as you mentioned in their lives. At the time I was very defensive and thought firstly that wasn't true

This is actually interesting to me. The majority of people (I don't necessarily mean people on this board) believe that having "darkness" in your life is a bad thing. Do you think that? I think the most mature and considerate people have had hardship in their life, and people who've had it easy tend to be shallow and boring.

I think people become more interesting, have more knowledge, and make better friends/partners the more hardship they've experienced.

JDM87 wrote:
I've always wondered that if the bombs DID go off, would people still be interested in Columbine as so much now?

I've wondered that one too. I still think the fun that E/D had is a big factor in Columbine's popularity, and if they had lots of fun shooting people after the bombing, then I think Columbine would still be as fascinating. Do you think that if the bomb had gone off, Eric would have been so excited and pumped up that he would have gone into the building looking for survivors to kill, and, in general, been much more murderous than he was when the bombs didn't go off?

Wideawake wrote:
I think there's a lot of reasons that school shootings are seen as "cool". Without going into a long-winded rant, here are some of the reasons in my opinion: the drama and infamy of it; the way kids/teens romanticize death; living in a society that glorifies violence; it's like a big fuck you to the world; shattering that illusion that adults have that kids are "safe" at school when anybody who properly remembers high school knows that's bullshit; power trip.

It seems that teenage shooters are much more popular than their adult counterparts. You're right, there is probably a sexual reason for it. Do you think E/D's virginity plays a part? But almost all adults seem fascinated with watching school shootings on the news too. Maybe there is something sexual about teenagers killing teenagers? Most horror movies feature teenagers dying... I know that parents are horrified by school shootings because they're worried for their own kids, but the average parent doesn't seem as fascinated by other childhood dangers.

I know some of the adult shooters have "fans" too, but not the way E/D do. And I often think that if Cho had been a high school student and attacked his high school, he would have been much more popular. There's something compelling about high school shootings in particular.

Also, if E/D had killed their parents beforehand, I'm willing to bet they wouldn't be as popular as they are now.

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PostSubject: Re: Attraction to Columbine   Attraction to Columbine Icon_minitimeWed Jul 03, 2013 9:40 am

The Columbine Curse. ;) Yes, as woo-woo as that sounds, there is something about the spirtual energy (and I don't mean religious) surrounding Columbine that is dark and ensnaring. I felt lured into it (by something as seemingly innocent as my niece attending Rachel's Challenge at middle school and silly, investigative me wanting to know more about it 'in general' hah. that's not even possible!) and was blind sighted by how sucked in I got.   When I read their journals, particularly Dylan's, I was a goner.  It seems like people that start researching Columbine from that  'bird's eye' subjective view - studying what happened, how it happened, where it all went down, learning about the victims, yadda yadda.. they end up gravitating towards The Source - the crux of why it even happened to begin with - E & D.  And it's a puzzle too because you can ask why and there is no answer to it...just the sense of pain, frustration, hopelessness and sadness that propelled the two.  People read those journals and they hear the call and they sort of resonate either with E or D - or both - and it hits them on some deep primordial, psychological level - connects and links to themselves under buried layers of their own personal pain, rage and sadness.  Down the rabbit hole they go.  

D & E wrote their psyche in words, planned with intent and focused their energy for that one day - when the world would finally take notice and reel in pain.   The scars and energetic vibe (yes, I know it's cheesy but go with me here) made an indelible mark after 13 sacrificial people (I'm not going with that particular conspiracy here but it is an interesting number) were randomly sacrificed killed; the school was violated and raped.  The surviving victims still to this day, suffer in their own ways and ordinary people outside of it, that just stumble into "all things Columbine"  somehow find themselves going deeper and getting sucked in. Some of us that made our way here are just embarking on the journey while others here have been on it a very long time, and we're all hoping that they can weather the obsession and make it out the other side intact and get on with our lives with other interests. It's not a subject for most people but for some, like me, that appreciate the psychological aspects and examining the rubrics cube from different angles.  Columbine also has that temptation factor for some in the world.  It's a fortifying, heady justification to emulate E &D, a permission to release bottled up, dark energy.    Studying it hopefully changes and transforms us in , ultimately, positive ways.   Anyway, at times, this research "obsession" has felt like the weight of a curse that E & D set forth and it is still impacting people and fascinating them in dance with their own darkness.  And oh, the cognitive dissonance surroundings this taboo, tragic tale and how we feel about ourselves.  There is that part of us that, at times, find ourselves sympathizing with the shooters and spending a great deal of time thinking about the Them,the puzzle that is Them - and not as much about the victims as we (and, often, others) think we should and oh, the sheepish guilt surrounding that.  It's a fascinating, conundrum...tar baby. Laughing  Researching a serial killer seems, somehow, easy peasy by comparison!

Please forgive my long-windedness and atrocious grammar/punctation but it's late here..
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PostSubject: Re: Attraction to Columbine   Attraction to Columbine Icon_minitimeWed Jul 03, 2013 10:53 am

InFiNiNcEX5 wrote:
The Columbine Curse. ;) Yes, as woo-woo as that sounds, there is something about the spirtual energy (and I don't mean religious) surrounding Columbine that is dark and ensnaring. I felt lured into it (by something as seemingly innocent as my niece attending Rachel's Challenge at middle school and silly, investigative me wanting to know more about it 'in general' hah. that's not even possible!) and was blind sighted by how sucked in I got.   When I read their journals, particularly Dylan's, I was a goner.  It seems like people that start researching Columbine from that  'bird's eye' subjective view - studying what happened, how it happened, where it all went down, learning about the victims, yadda yadda.. they end up gravitating towards The Source - the crux of why it even happened to begin with - E & D.  And it's a puzzle too because you can ask why and there is no answer to it...just the sense of pain, frustration, hopelessness and sadness that propelled the two.  People read those journals and they hear the call and they sort of resonate either with E or D - or both - and it hits them on some deep primordial, psychological level - connects and links to themselves under buried layers of their own personal pain, rage and sadness.  Down the rabbit hole they go.  

D & E wrote their psyche in words, planned with intent and focused their energy for that one day - when the world would finally take notice and reel in pain.   The scars and energetic vibe (yes, I know it's cheesy but go with me here) made an indelible mark after 13 sacrificial people (I'm not going with that particular conspiracy here but it is an interesting number) were randomly sacrificed killed; the school was violated and raped.  The surviving victims still to this day, suffer in their own ways and ordinary people outside of it, that just stumble into "all things Columbine"  somehow find themselves going deeper and getting sucked in. Some of us that made our way here are just embarking on the journey while others here have been on it a very long time, and we're all hoping that they can weather the obsession and make it out the other side intact and get on with our lives with other interests. It's not a subject for most people but for some, like me, that appreciate the psychological aspects and examining the rubrics cube from different angles.  Columbine also has that temptation factor for some in the world.  It's a fortifying, heady justification to emulate E &D, a permission to release bottled up, dark energy.    Studying it hopefully changes and transforms us in , ultimately, positive ways.   Anyway, at times, this research "obsession" has felt like the weight of a curse that E & D set forth and it is still impacting people and fascinating them in dance with their own darkness.  And oh, the cognitive dissonance surroundings this taboo, tragic tale and how we feel about ourselves.  There is that part of us that, at times, find ourselves sympathizing with the shooters and spending a great deal of time thinking about the Them,the puzzle that is Them - and not as much about the victims as we (and, often, others) think we should and oh, the sheepish guilt surrounding that.  It's a fascinating, conundrum...tar baby. Laughing  Researching a serial killer seems, somehow, easy peasy by comparison!

Please forgive my long-windedness and atrocious grammar/punctation but it's late here..

That was very poetic! It's true though... Columbine is human expression at its rawest.

I love that you used the word "spiritual". I've often though that E/D had an almost "spiritual" passion, but I feel like a nutcase using that word. Very Happy 

There's actually a lot spirituality in E/D's view of the world, even if they weren't religious people. Dylan's journal spoke about the afterlife in terms that are almost religious (he definitely didn't view death as the end), and Eric's desire for fame and to haunt/hurt his victims from beyond the grave has religious type qualities too -almost like he was sacrificing himself to achieve Godhood.

InFiNiNcEX5, do you find going "down the rabbit hole" satisfying, or does it only open up more and more questions that can't be answered?
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PostSubject: Re: Attraction to Columbine   Attraction to Columbine Icon_minitimeWed Jul 03, 2013 1:43 pm

When I first became interested in Columbine, all I knew about was the story of Cassie Bernall, the girl who said yes. I quickly realized the story wasn't true, but it was what drew me to Columbine. The idea that a girl believed in God so much that she would profess her faith even in the face of a gun. I still applaud Valeen Schnurr for being able to do just that.

Anyway, once I was in, I was in. I don't know that it was a morbid sense of curiosity that kept me reading about it but it certainly became very obsessive for me. Not so much anymore but the sheer fact that I'm still posting on this board means it's definitely still part of my life, and I don't even live in America, nor have I ever been there.

I guess it's human nature to be fascinated by something you can't truly comprehend. I can't imagine picking up a gun and taking a life so reading about it almost becomes surreal.

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PostSubject: Re: Attraction to Columbine   Attraction to Columbine Icon_minitimeThu Jul 04, 2013 1:55 am

StinkyOldGrapes wrote:
InFiNiNcEX5 wrote:
The Columbine Curse. ;) Yes, as woo-woo as that sounds, there is something about the spirtual energy (and I don't mean religious) surrounding Columbine that is dark and ensnaring. I felt lured into it (by something as seemingly innocent as my niece attending Rachel's Challenge at middle school and silly, investigative me wanting to know more about it 'in general' hah. that's not even possible!) and was blind sighted by how sucked in I got.   When I read their journals, particularly Dylan's, I was a goner.  It seems like people that start researching Columbine from that  'bird's eye' subjective view - studying what happened, how it happened, where it all went down, learning about the victims, yadda yadda.. they end up gravitating towards The Source - the crux of why it even happened to begin with - E & D.  And it's a puzzle too because you can ask why and there is no answer to it...just the sense of pain, frustration, hopelessness and sadness that propelled the two.  People read those journals and they hear the call and they sort of resonate either with E or D - or both - and it hits them on some deep primordial, psychological level - connects and links to themselves under buried layers of their own personal pain, rage and sadness.  Down the rabbit hole they go.  

D & E wrote their psyche in words, planned with intent and focused their energy for that one day - when the world would finally take notice and reel in pain.   The scars and energetic vibe (yes, I know it's cheesy but go with me here) made an indelible mark after 13 sacrificial people (I'm not going with that particular conspiracy here but it is an interesting number) were randomly sacrificed killed; the school was violated and raped.  The surviving victims still to this day, suffer in their own ways and ordinary people outside of it, that just stumble into "all things Columbine"  somehow find themselves going deeper and getting sucked in. Some of us that made our way here are just embarking on the journey while others here have been on it a very long time, and we're all hoping that they can weather the obsession and make it out the other side intact and get on with our lives with other interests. It's not a subject for most people but for some, like me, that appreciate the psychological aspects and examining the rubrics cube from different angles.  Columbine also has that temptation factor for some in the world.  It's a fortifying, heady justification to emulate E &D, a permission to release bottled up, dark energy.    Studying it hopefully changes and transforms us in , ultimately, positive ways.   Anyway, at times, this research "obsession" has felt like the weight of a curse that E & D set forth and it is still impacting people and fascinating them in dance with their own darkness.  And oh, the cognitive dissonance surroundings this taboo, tragic tale and how we feel about ourselves.  There is that part of us that, at times, find ourselves sympathizing with the shooters and spending a great deal of time thinking about the Them,the puzzle that is Them - and not as much about the victims as we (and, often, others) think we should and oh, the sheepish guilt surrounding that.  It's a fascinating, conundrum...tar baby. Laughing  Researching a serial killer seems, somehow, easy peasy by comparison!

Please forgive my long-windedness and atrocious grammar/punctation but it's late here..

StinkyOldGrapes wrote:
[That was very poetic! It's true though... Columbine is human expression at its rawest.

Thankss.  Um, I'm not sure where the hell I channeled that from last night.. heh.  

StinkyOldGrapes wrote:
[I love that you used the word "spiritual". I've often though that E/D had an almost "spiritual" passion, but I feel like a nutcase using that word. Very Happy
There's actually a lot spirituality in E/D's view of the world, even if they weren't religious people. Dylan's journal spoke about the afterlife in terms that are almost religious (he definitely didn't view death as the end), and Eric's desire for fame and to haunt/hurt his victims from beyond the grave has religious type qualities too -almost like he was sacrificing himself to achieve Godhood.

I find it fascinating how unwaivering they were in their 'faith' - for lack of a better word.  Dylan wrote endlessly about how the afterlife is nothing more than an endless Great Hall with many doors, leading to a variety of life existences.  At just sixteen, when he began jotting down his 'Thoughtz', he seemed quite certain of how things work.  How everything was supposed to be connected -yet everything felt wrong and separate.  Dylan also spoke of a vivid dream-like sequence of being up in the sky and clouds, with forest (he is specific about that) green down below.  He lounges on a chair, even goes into the details as to what exact direction he is facing. Dylan mentions that he is communicating with someone that is 'like himself in a way'.  There is also the reference to the field of wheat as well..   A lot of the repeated symbolism in his journal - the spiral, the long highway, the embellished "5's" and  the triple barred cross - all seem to be an elaborate ideas of how the universe works and his place, or lack thereof in this particular "existence", within it.   Very spiritual, deep thinking; a wistful, sad beauty to his words.  It also fascinates me how he believes he will jump off from this plain and float away to the halycon, once he frees himself physically.  I find myself wondering if he ever got where he hoped to go with such faith.   Unlike Eric, during the last Basement Tape, Dylan really seemed ready to go and there was no looking back.  

With Eric, it seems like spent a great amount of time focusing on the goal and holding it in sight.  Creating lists, building the arenal, managing all things physically that needed to be done in order to accomplish NBK.  However, his vision of what life is like after death stops as short as his fake future plans for his parents and friends: he merely hopes that 'death is like a dream state'.   Yet, even in not knowing for sure, he is propelled onward to complete his task.  He too, is still undaunted and unwavering even though bits of remorse pop up from time to time near the end.  This is what he was born to do, he says emphatically. There is oddness about his dreams. They seem to be quite vivid and drearly apocalyptic (but not for him).  He seems happiest as ruler in derelict universe all by himself.  Perhaps that way no one can ever hurt him if there is no one around to inflict hurt?   He believes the earth should be given over to animals. That they are more deserving than humanity.  His brand of spirituality seems more earthbound.  It takes guts to see this through completely, unwaivering, yet, not really having a solid vision of how it will be after he offs himself.  Maybe he was hoping for the peace of oblivion?

Raw, pure, unrestrained, Lost Boys. Fierce death embracers. True-to-themselves, and emphatically, individually, spiritually pioneering in their own way.  

StinkyOldGrapes wrote:
InFiNiNcEX5, do you find going "down the rabbit hole" satisfying, or does it only open up more and more questions that can't be answered?

Hm. Dylan would say that that is the point of the ponderer.  Questions are endless and open more doors, still.   I guess the journey itself is satisfying but there are things we'll just never know because it becomes
endless, almost pointless, speculation working with only the materials that Jeffco has released.  Still, it remains interesting even in its unfufillment!  At least.. for now.  What say you?


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PostSubject: Re: Attraction to Columbine   Attraction to Columbine Icon_minitimeThu Jul 04, 2013 5:54 am

SandraSmit19 wrote:
When I first became interested in Columbine, all I knew about was the story of Cassie Bernall, the girl who said yes. I quickly realized the story wasn't true, but it was what drew me to Columbine. The idea that a girl believed in God so much that she would profess her faith even in the face of a gun. I still applaud Valeen Schnurr for being able to do just that.

This is something I think about quite a bit. Not the Yes or No part, but how I would react in the face of a random death like a spree shooting. I'm Buddhist, and I like to think I believe in existence after death, but I doubt I'd be so courageous if I was actually tested on that. If I was already shot and dying, I think I'd pray. I'm assuming that you're religious yourself, how do you think you'd react in the face of death during an event like Columbine? What would you say to the shooters if they talked to you?

InFiNiNcEX5 wrote:
I find it fascinating how unwaivering they were in their 'faith' - for lack of a better word.  Dylan wrote endlessly about how the afterlife is nothing more than an endless Great Hall with many doors, leading to a variety of life existences.  At just sixteen, when he began jotting down his 'Thoughtz', he seemed quite certain of how things work.  How everything was supposed to be connected -yet everything felt wrong and separate.  Dylan also spoke of a vivid dream-like sequence of being up in the sky and clouds, with emerald (he is specific about that) green down below.  He lounges on a chair, even goes into the details as to what exact direction he is facing. Dylan mentions that he is communicating with someone that is 'like himself in a way'.  There is also the reference to the field of wheat as well..   A lot of the repeated symbolism in his journal - the spiral, the long highway, the embellished "5's" and  the triple barred cross - all seem to be an elaborate ideas of how the universe works and his place, or lack thereof in this particular "existence", within it.   Very spiritual, deep thinking; a wistful, sad beauty to his words.  It also fascinates me how he believes he will jump off from this plain and float away to the halycon, once he frees himself physically.  I find myself wondering if he ever got where he hoped to go with such faith.   Unlike Eric, during the last Basement Tape, Dylan really seemed ready to go and there was no looking back.

Yeah. The "faith" E/D had was unusual, but very real. Sometimes I think that faith of this magnitude is something all humans want -but there has to be a better way to achieve it then by plotting your own mutually assured destruction.

Although I don't think its common, some teenagers do, like Dylan, have spiritual experiences. Although some of those teenagers are obviously mentally ill, I don't think all of them are, and I don't think Dylan was. Dylan's symbolism and afterlife visions are no stranger than tarot cards and astral travelling. Which teenager doesn't have a play around with a Ouija board? It's possible that Dylan's spiritual ideas came as a way of dealing with his unhappiness (the next life will be better), but the comfort he felt from his beliefs was very real and that suggests that comfort is more important to human beings than life itself.

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With Eric, it seems like spent a great amount of time focusing on the goal and holding it in sight.  Creating lists, building the arenal, managing all things physically that needed to be done in order to accomplish NBK.  However, his vision of what life is like after death stops as short as his fake future plans for his parents and friends: he merely hopes that 'death is like a dream state'.   Yet, even in not knowing for sure, he is propelled onward to complete his task.  He too, is still undaunted and unwavering even though bits of remorse pop up from time to time near the end.  This is what he was born to do, he says emphatically. There is oddness about his dreams. They seem to be quite vivid and drearly apocalyptic (but not for him).

Eric's "religious" behavior didn't include a belief in life after death, but his "vivid and drearily apocalyptic" vision is eerily similar to the Biblical Armageddon. Like you said, he believed he was born to do this. The only thing he lacked was some evidence of a prophesy that foretolled his coming!

Quote :
Hm. Dylan would say that that is the point of the ponderer.  Questions are endless and open more doors, still.   I guess the journey itself is satisfying but there are things we'll just never know because it becomes endless, almost pointless, speculation working with only the materials that Jeffco has released.  Still, it remains interesting even in its unfufillment!  At least.. for now.  What say you?

Look, I'll admit it. I love questions. In psychology, there is something some people refer to as "the flow". This is where a person experiences a creative high without any self-doubt. They trust themselves and they trust what feels good. I think the term is usually applied to the best musicians and such. I think E/D's last few months were probably one big, long creative "flow".

I don't think there can possibly ever be any final answers to E/D's Columbine, but I'm happy to follow the questions and see where they take me. Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Attraction to Columbine   Attraction to Columbine Icon_minitimeThu Jul 04, 2013 9:56 pm

StinkyOldGrapes wrote:

Although I don't think its common, some teenagers do, like Dylan, have spiritual experiences. Although some of those teenagers are obviously mentally ill, I don't think all of them are, and I don't think Dylan was.

In the book "Why Kids Kill" by Peter Langman it's suggested that Dylan was schizotypal.  While I can see that to some extent, I don't believe the spiritual/dream-like visions he mentions are fantasies founded in mere delusions.  I tend to think that a couple of those visions he relays in his journal were actual vivid dreams that had spiritual gravity to them.   They definitely made an impression on him.  These ideal oasis' made him feel connected with how things should be but weren't. It's a normal, rational coping mechanism in the midst of feeling adrift and powerless in life.  It's also a way to justify what he was planning simultaneously.  "If I go NBK with Eric, this is what will happen for me:  It'll be much better than this place because I will float away with my love to the halcyon. I will be in a place where I am loved and feel good."  Writing this way releases the feelings of hopelessness.  I tend to think many people write out fantasy scenarios in their journals and that doesn't mean they are mentally ill.  It's essentially just hopes and dreams.  So I tend to think that while yes, his gradual downward spiral deeper into depression was mental illness, the symbolism and ideas written in his journal were based in reality and way to justify that things would be better for him after he left the earth.  Again, rational coping mechanisms.  Some read his journal and think he's nuts.  It makes poetic sense to me!


StinkyOldGrapes wrote:
Dylan's symbolism and afterlife visions are no stranger than tarot cards and astral travelling. Which teenager doesn't have a play around with a Ouija board? It's possible that Dylan's spiritual ideas came as a way of dealing with his unhappiness (the next life will be better), but the comfort he felt from his beliefs was very real and that suggests that comfort is more important to human beings than life itself.

He also mentions using oracles like runes and that 'they have shown it' pointing favorably towards this particular girl being his soulmate.  I also stumbled upon a page in his journal that to me, highly suggests that he dabbled in using a pendulum.  This is pretty normal teenage curiosity - though for a guy attending mostly mainstream CHS, he is quite the minority.  Using tools to control or foretell fate, if the girl he loves is meant to be 'the one'.   It made him feel less powerless.  But for "The Ponderer", who is Dylan, it seems in keeping.  Dylan who is anti-religious but seems to embody spiritual ideals (and probably didn't even recognize that about himself.)

StinkyOldGrapes wrote:

Eric's "religious" behavior didn't include a belief in life after death, but his "vivid and drearily apocalyptic" vision is eerily similar to the Biblical Armageddon. Like you said, he believed he was born to do this. The only thing he lacked was some evidence of a prophesy that foretolled his coming!

That be him!

StinkyOldGrapes wrote:
There is something some people refer to as "the flow". This is where a person experiences a creative high without any self-doubt. They trust themselves and they trust what feels good. I think the term is usually applied to the best musicians and such. I think E/D's last few months were probably one big, long creative "flow".

I think this works completely.  They were instinctual about their fate.   Such confident statements in the basement tapes sums up their state of mind at the pinnacle of NBK:  "It's what we had to do". No question about it for them.  They were ready to charge and go over the cliff.

I guess we've gone waaay off topic in this thread.  Oh well, sorry!
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PostSubject: Re: Attraction to Columbine   Attraction to Columbine Icon_minitimeFri Jul 05, 2013 4:41 am

InFiNiNcEX5 wrote:
In the book "Why Kids Kill" by Peter Langman it's suggested that Dylan was schizotypal.  While I can see that to some extent, I don't believe the spiritual/dream-like visions he mentions are fantasies founded in mere delusions.

I think Dylan's "spirituality" is very similar to the New-Age group. The psychics, crystal healers, dream interpreters, and spiritual chanellers aren't usually mentally ill, so there's no reason for me to assume Dylan was. And I think people who are genuinely mentally ill usually try to convince other people of their beliefs and aren't aware that that other people don't see things the way they do. Dylan (as far as I can see) kept his beliefs to himself and was well aware that other people would think they were strange. He realized they were his own beliefs, and that what takes him out of the mentally ill category to me.

I know that Dylan drank quite a bit, but did he also smoke weed at all?

Quote :
I tend to think that a couple of those visions he relays in his journal were actual vivid dreams that had spiritual gravity to them.   They definitely made an impression on him.  These ideal oasis' made him feel connected with how things should be but weren't. It's a normal, rational coping mechanism in the midst of feeling adrift and powerless in life.  It's also a way to justify what he was planning simultaneously.  "If I go NBK with Eric, this is what will happen for me:  It'll be much better than this place because I will float away with my love to the halcyon. I will be in a place where I am loved and feel good."  Writing this way releases the feelings of hopelessness.  I tend to think many people write out fantasy scenarios in their journals and that doesn't mean they are mentally ill.  It's essentially just hopes and dreams.  So I tend to think that while yes, his gradual downward spiral deeper into depression was mental illness, the symbolism and ideas written in his journal were based in reality and way to justify that things would be better for him after he left the earth.  Again, rational coping mechanisms.  Some read his journal and think he's nuts.  It makes poetic sense to me!

I think his dream-like fantasies were probably also fueled by quite a bit of sexual frustration. Perhaps some of his dreamy descriptions were his attempts to describe abstract sexual feelings he had? I think Freud would have had a field day with all the symbolism in Dylan's journal! In fact, I'd love to hear Freud's interpretation of Columbine. He'd probably see the event as one big orgasm!

Quote :
He also mentions using oracles like runes and that 'they have shown it' pointing favorably towards this particular girl being his soulmate.  I also stumbled upon a page in his journal that to me, highly suggests that he dabbled in using a pendulum.  This is pretty normal teenage curiosity - though for a guy attending mostly mainstream CHS, he is quite the minority.  Using tools to control or foretell fate, if the girl he loves is meant to be 'the one'.   It made him feel less powerless.  But for "The Ponderer", who is Dylan, it seems in keeping.  Dylan who is anti-religious but seems to embody spiritual ideals (and probably didn't even recognize that about himself.)

Heh heh. I used to play around with a pendulum when I was younger. Very Happy  I don't know how any normal teenager can't be at least a little curious about the spiritual things. I think you're absolutely right about "occult" practices being frowned on at Columbine and that would have been hard for someone as liberal-minded as Dylan. I feel sorry for him when he expresses how guilty he feels about some of his sexual urges, because there's no good reason for him to be ashamed.

Quote :
I guess we've gone waaay off topic in this thread.  Oh well, sorry!

It's good that this board allows people to ramble, because I think the best posts are the ones that people post on the spur of the moment, sharing whatever's on their mind.
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PostSubject: Re: Attraction to Columbine   Attraction to Columbine Icon_minitimeFri Jul 05, 2013 5:11 am

It bothers me that some people feel Dylan's spiritual feelings are "scary" and that they're "proof" that he was somewhat mentally "off". Those thoughts were quite profound for someone his age, and I see nothing at all wrong with them, personally. I also feel bad that he probably had no one to talk to about them.

Most of the time, such feelings and realizations are sort of tainted--- or it can even seem to diminish the intensity of them to talk too much about them with others, but I think it would have helped him somewhat to be able to speak to someone else who felt the same to some degree, or someone who was open minded enough to listen without judgment. Eric could have possibly been that person, but we do not know if he discussed those feelings with him.

I think Eric had a very, very difficult time openly discussing (and even acknowledging) his deeper and more intense feelings. He did like violence, but many, MANY males do. I know not every male does, but quite a lot do. I think Eric could only feel in control by relating to everything violently over time. I think he was far more sensitive and emotional than quite a lot of people seem to realize. I know that is only my opinion, but I believe it to be true. He suppressed that part of his being, in my opinion.
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PostSubject: Re: Attraction to Columbine   Attraction to Columbine Icon_minitimeFri Jul 05, 2013 5:40 am

tfsa47090 wrote:
It bothers me that some people feel Dylan's spiritual feelings are "scary" and that they're "proof" that he was somewhat mentally "off". Those thoughts were quite profound for someone his age, and I see nothing at all wrong with them, personally. I also feel bad that he probably had no one to talk to about them.

I think it's sad that people are so easily scared. This is completely off-topic, but someone gave me their copy of book that Britney Spears mom wrote, and in that book, Lynne says that while Britney was dating Justin she would come home with all these questions like "Is there really a right and wrong?" and other philosophy questions. Lynne said these questions would scare the crap out of her. I don't know this family, and I'm not going to judge them, but I think maybe Britney would have benefited if her mom had given her a copy of Sophie's World instead of panicking.

The same goes for Eric's homicidal fantasies. Rampaging at school seems to be a common fantasy, but how many kids would dare bring this up with their parents? "Mom, I think about shooting up my school." Reply, "Don't you DARE become one of those kids. I'm not going to have a school shooter in OUR family."

Quote :
Most of the time, such feelings and realizations are sort of tainted--- or it can even seem to diminish the intensity of them to talk too much about them with others, but I think it would have helped him somewhat to be able to speak to someone else who felt the same to some degree, or someone who was open minded enough to listen without judgment. Eric could have possibly been that person, but we do not know if he discussed those feelings with him.

I do wonder if Dylan talked about anything spiritual with Eric. I personally don't think they did talk about it in depth because Eric didn't know about Dylan's Jewish background.

Quote :
I think Eric had a very, very difficult time openly discussing (and even acknowledging) his deeper and more intense feelings. He did like violence, but many, MANY males do. I know not every male does, but quite a lot do. I think Eric could only feel in control by relating to everything violently over time. I think he was far more sensitive and emotional than quite a lot of people seem to realize. I know that is only my opinion, but I believe it to be true. He suppressed that part of his being, in my opinion.

I think Eric was very sensitive too. After all, aren't the most angry people usually the most sensitive? That's why they get angry. People who don't care, don't get angry.
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PostSubject: Re: Attraction to Columbine   Attraction to Columbine Icon_minitimeSat Jul 06, 2013 3:35 am

Also, do people on this board have an attraction to just Columbine, or an attraction to shootings, bombings, and violent crime in general?

Myself, I'm more interested in mass shootings for some odd reason. Plain bombings done really interest me that much. I find serial killings sort of interesting to some extent, but find mass shootings the most interesting.

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PostSubject: Re: Attraction to Columbine   Attraction to Columbine Icon_minitimeSat Jul 06, 2013 7:58 am

I think the physchology behind serial killers and mass murdered is really fascinating in general but I'm mainly interested in Columbine. There's just something about E/D that I find so intriguing.
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PostSubject: Re: Attraction to Columbine   Attraction to Columbine Icon_minitimeWed Jul 10, 2013 12:21 pm

I have a morbid curiosity and have always found serial killers and mass murderers and the like quite fascinating, purely from a psychological perspective. I guess I have an urge to "know" - know why, how, who, when, what, etc. I just like to know things. The fact that, for the most part, the "why" can never truly be known is part of the appeal. Who doesn't strive to answer the seemingly unknowable, even if you know it's probably a fool's quest?

With Columbine, I think Brooks Brown said it best (about Eric) - "you haven't got into his head, you've let him into yours". I think that sums it up, pretty much. You give those boys an inch and they'll take a yard. That's definitely true for me.
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PostSubject: Re: Attraction to Columbine   Attraction to Columbine Icon_minitimeFri Jul 12, 2013 11:41 pm

Hmm, I don't know. Nothing else in the crimezone atmosphere has ever pulled me in the way Columbine did. I've stated elsewhere in the past that the case has been an on-off presence in my life ever since it happened. The case just got randomly mentioned or popped up in relation to other interests of mine for quite a while. I never really looked all that deeply into it during those years, but thought I had the basics figured out for myself. (And, yes, they were exactly the basics that I later discarded when I actually dug into it.) I don't really know what made me gravitate towards it again. All I know is that I unpacked Krabbé's book at work some time last year and couldn't shake it. The cover had one of the drawings the boys did, the word "Columbine" was on there and I had this niggling feeling that I should buy it. Debated with myself for a day or two, maybe longer? I saw the book in the purse of one of my customers (she was a girl around my own age) and I think that's when I gave in. I knew I'd be a goner as soon as I actually used my employee discount on that thing. Laughing I finally ended up sprinting to our bookstore while I wasn't even scheduled to work that day just to buy the book.

I can't give the case up anymore now. I remember it happening back in '99, particularly the part where they first showed the pictures of the boys on the news, so some of it must have made an impression on me even back when I was ten years old. I don't think I understood what could drive anyone to do what they did back then. In my teenage years, though? Let us all take a moment in gratitude for the fact that guns are not easily accessible in my country. I threatened bodily harm against some people from school back in the day, and it has been my greatest fortune that I chose to express that sentiment to my mother first. She didn't hesitate one moment. She acted. She kept me home from school, defied every authority on the block that wanted to drag me back into that place, and got me the help I needed to work through everything. I don't know if I could've ever gone through with actually doing anything to anyone to hurt them. I don't think I'd like to find out just how dark I can get when I'm cornered. There's a personal component in the Columbine case for me that makes it impossible to shake the case completely.

When I read Dylan's journal, it's like I'm reading through something I could've written back when I was fifteen and at my all-time lowest. He's a mirror to me. Dylan shows me just how far I've come in recovering. There's such a huge difference between me from back then and me as I am now. It saddens me that he never gave himself the chance to grow beyond high school. Everything got so much better for me once I was away from the system. I need that reminder that he is what I could have been, but chose not to be. Smile Currently, a lot more of my focus is on learning to understand and grasp Eric. He's the more elusive of the two for me. I think I have said, once or twice, that Eric represents a part of me that I don't let out into the world -- ever. It's the part of me that wants to watch the world and everything in it burn. It's the part of me that is horribly alone, and the part of me that just can't figure out how to deal with life and the people in it. Working my way through Eric's part of the material is helping me come to better terms with that part of me to the point where I may be able to switch all that pent-up energy around into a constructive and wholesome contribution to my life. It's deeply psychological for me and feels transformative. I'm making more progress actively working with this than I have in years of therapy. (And that, in itself, is a deeply terrifying thought.)
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PostSubject: Re: Attraction to Columbine   Attraction to Columbine Icon_minitimeSat Jul 13, 2013 4:07 am

I've been reading and watching everything I can dealing with WWII and the Holocaust since I was 12/13. I guess that's always been my first morbid fascination.

I was 10 and lived in Littleton at the time of the shootings. My classmate's sister and the son of my parents' friends were shot, but I never really gave the whole ordeal much thought until a bit ago. It always seemed so...removed.

I know they're nowhere near on the same scale as far as loss of life goes, but both the events of WWII/the Holocaust and Columbine are so dark and so difficult to comprehend. Maybe that's why I'm so curious about them.
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PostSubject: Re: Attraction to Columbine   Attraction to Columbine Icon_minitimeSat Jul 13, 2013 5:36 pm

Achimenes wrote:
I've been reading and watching everything I can dealing with WWII and the Holocaust since I was 12/13. I guess that's always been my first morbid fascination.

I was 10 and lived in Littleton at the time of the shootings. My classmate's sister and the son of my parents' friends were shot, but I never really gave the whole ordeal much thought until a bit ago. It always seemed so...removed.

I know they're nowhere near on the same scale as far as loss of life goes, but both the events of WWII/the Holocaust and Columbine are so dark and so difficult to comprehend. Maybe that's why I'm so curious about them.

I saw a video from the World At War series called Genocide. Even to this day, it's most disturbing movie I've ever seen.
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PostSubject: Re: Attraction to Columbine   Attraction to Columbine Icon_minitimeSat Jul 13, 2013 6:57 pm

Achimenes wrote:
I've been reading and watching everything I can dealing with WWII and the Holocaust since I was 12/13. I guess that's always been my first morbid fascination.

I was 10 and lived in Littleton at the time of the shootings. My classmate's sister and the son of my parents' friends were shot, but I never really gave the whole ordeal much thought until a bit ago. It always seemed so...removed.

I know they're nowhere near on the same scale as far as loss of life goes, but both the events of WWII/the Holocaust and Columbine are so dark and so difficult to comprehend. Maybe that's why I'm so curious about them.

It's my curse as well, to be fascinated by historcal events that are known for their tragedy.

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PostSubject: Re: Attraction to Columbine   Attraction to Columbine Icon_minitimeSun Jul 14, 2013 9:59 am

Im very attracted to it, im a military kid, moved all around, just turned 18, play doom and call of duty. can really relate to these guys. Mainly Eric, I love research and finding out as much as I can about this

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